Do you ever allow Wish to grant feats?

[Alleran]

As the title, basically. What are the thoughts of the Playground on the viability (or lack thereof) of somebody trying to wish for an extra feat/feat slot above and beyond the ones they normally possess? Would you allow it? It falls under the last clause (i.e. greater/unlisted effects), so would you add in a drawback?

Naturally it could become very problematic if a character were to repeatedly wish for more feats. On the other hand, a wish can already provide one type of inherent benefit to a character and items do exist that can grant feats permanently, though on the third hand those items also tend to be artifacts. On top of that, some wondrous locations grant particular feats (e.g. Frog God's Fane, Court of Thieves, Otyugh Hole), so the concept of doing so is out there, even if the extra wished-for feat slot can only be gained once (sort of like how you can't go above a +5 inherent bonus) or a similar limitation.

If there are actually published NPCs somewhere that have used Wish to add new feats, that might also serve as precedent. I can't think of any offhand, though (maybe something somewhere in an issue of Dragon or Dungeon?). Again, if anybody has any examples, I'd like to know where they're from.

[Eldan]

It would probably depend on the feat in question. One of those nigh-pointless "get +2 to whatever" feats, or a prerequisite feat that does little by itself? Sure. Leadership or Arcane Thesis? Not so much.

[Corlindale]

I wouldn't let wish do that. It has way too much potential for abuse.

If I ever allowed it it would definately fall under "greater wishes" and thus have a chance of failing spectacularly.

I might allow a Wish to exchange a known feat for another, subject to regular retraining restrictions, but simply letting it add feats could get out of hand very quickly.

[Gwendol]

You could Wish a magic item that grants the feat.

[JellyPooga]

The inherent problem with the concept is how, in game, you do this. It would be like asking for an extra +1 to hit in combat; it just doesn't make sense from a non-meta-game standpoint.

For example; wishing for the Cleave feat could be done by asking for "the ability to kill two enemies with a single blow", which would (at least in a game I was GM-ing) be interpreted as being granted by a magic sword, increased strength, gaingin a level or suchlike. It could also be done by literally wishing for "the Cleave feat", which would result in the contents of your boots being bisected.

Wish is a dangeous spell when taken beyond the written parameters (and is still a dangerous spell within those parameters). As such, it should always be adjudicated in-character. Have the player specifically word the wish and interpret it as best as possible (and depending on how generous you're feeling!). If the best solution and most clearly delineated outcome of the wish is to grant the extra Feat, then so be it. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your outlook), because Feats are so inherently a metagame concept, it is highly unlikely that one would be granted as the result of a Wish spell.

[Clawhound]

For feats, yes.

Well, for Tiers 3-6, always. For Tiers 1-2, no.

[AmberVael]

It would probably depend on the feat in question. One of those nigh-pointless "get +2 to whatever" feats, or a prerequisite feat that does little by itself? Sure. Leadership or Arcane Thesis? Not so much.

This. There are already certain special locations that can give a lot of those smaller kind of feats, and they're fine. Allowing Wish to do that for its 5000xp cost? Doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Getting something like Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Weapon Focus... it's not really going to be a problem. It would be a nifty use to have available, however.

[hoverfrog]

Sure, just have the wish swap out an existing feat.

[Boci]

I'd allow most feats. It is costing 5k in experience after all. The DM should just make it clear not all feat will be applicable.


The inherent problem with the concept is how, in game, you do this. It would be like asking for an extra +1 to hit in combat; it just doesn't make sense from a non-meta-game standpoint.

For example; wishing for the Cleave feat could be done by asking for "the ability to kill two enemies with a single blow", which would (at least in a game I was GM-ing) be interpreted as being granted by a magic sword, increased strength, gaingin a level or suchlike. It could also be done by literally wishing for "the Cleave feat", which would result in the contents of your boots being bisected.

You may feel like you are increasing realism this way, but it is actually having the opposite effect. How does the master fighter teach his apprentice? "Today I'm going to show you how to swing your sword in a certain way"? Unlikely. Specific feats like cleaves will have names in game. They may vary, but they will be there, unless the NPCs use phrases like "that thingy trick with his sword" a lot.

[JellyPooga]

You may feel like you are increasing realism this way, but it is actually having the opposite effect. How does the master fighter teach his apprentice? "Today I'm going to show you how to swing your sword in a certain way"? Unlikely. Specific feats like cleaves will have names in game. They may vary, but they will be there, unless the NPCs use phrases like "that thingy trick with his sword" a lot.

Hmm, it's certainly a possibility for 'trick' Feats like Cleave that they would have a name, as you say. If a player Wish'ed to me (as GM) for an in-game name for a manouever that translates as a Feat, then yeah, I'd probably grant it (then again, I might also just translate it as gaining enough XP to go up a level or by converting an existing level into Lvl.1 Fighter, granting the Feat that way).

Other Feats will have different milage, though. Swift Hunter, Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus for example, are not a specific 'combat tricks' or the like, so Wish'ing specifically for them is going to be pretty tricky.

[mattie_p]

Sure, just have the wish swap out an existing feat.

There are already spells that do that. And don't cost as much as the wish spell. Chaos Shuffle.

[Boci]

Other Feats will have different milage, though. Swift Hunter, Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus for example, are not a specific 'combat tricks' or the like, so Wish'ing specifically for them is going to be pretty tricky.

I guess so, but to me this is just showing the limitations of the mechanical character development. Should players be forbidden from planning their character in advance? The character themselves do not know when they will next get a feat. And how do feats work. Assuming no bonus feats, the character gets one every level. Are they learning the feats constantly throughout those 3 levels? Do they sudden gain the potential to learn something or improve themselves?

Furthermore, the pact with the devil to sell your soul in FC II can grant bonus feats. How does a character describe these?

[Larpus]

Other Feats will have different milage, though. Swift Hunter, Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus for example, are not a specific 'combat tricks' or the like, so Wish'ing specifically for them is going to be pretty tricky.
You think so?

I'd simply file them under "make me better at X", with the mechanical benefit being what the player wants.

So ingame, the character asked for "better resolution", metagame, he got Iron Will.

[JellyPooga]

I'd simply file them under "make me better at X", with the mechanical benefit being what the player wants.
(emphais mine)

This is kind of the point I'm making, in a roundabout sort of way. The Wish spell shouldn't be giving the Player exactly what he wants. The defined parameters are generous enough. If a character wants more than that, then the player is going to have to chance the 'other effects' clause that Wish has. To me that says that "you get what you Wish for" and not "you get what you want".

[jaybird]

Other Feats will have different milage, though. Swift Hunter, Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus for example, are not a specific 'combat tricks' or the like, so Wish'ing specifically for them is going to be pretty tricky.

"I wish for my Evocation spells to be harder for targets to resist."

[Alleran]

Furthermore, the pact with the devil to sell your soul in FC II can grant bonus feats. How does a character describe these?
Infernal augmentation. A "Skill Focus: Knowledge [arcana]" feat through a devil-granted feat infernal knowledge augmenting your existing knowledge base, for example. For a wish, the same feat would have a similar explanation, the spell possibly "downloading" a bunch of new ideas, thoughts and concepts into your brain.

Perhaps I could have worded it better in my opening post, or given my own perspective. My initial, half-formed idea was largely that a feat could only really be granted if it would be an inherent benefit. Leadership, for example, is right out (it's not inherent, since it more represents creating a following - a wish spell is unlikely to have the power to just wish that into being from nowhere). Lightning Reflexes is right in. Maybe a metamagic feat (one of the not-extremely-good ones, at any rate) could also qualify as gaining something inherent ("inherent knowledge of how to do X with magic"), but they're borderline.

[Ashtagon]

My personal take on wish and similar spells is that the spell is there to make something happen; it tends to misfire when used to have the ability to make something happen. It's a subtle distinction to some, I guess.

Maybe I'm stingy. I don't allow wishes to give permanent stat boosts either. Although that is a RAW acceptable usage.

[ahenobarbi]

I think that's a bad idea. Even if you grant poor feat what stops players from chaos-shuffle-ing them away? (I assume you do worry about abuse, otherwise you wouldn't ask the question in the first place)

[AmberVael]

I think that's a bad idea. Even if you grant poor feat what stops players from chaos-shuffle-ing them away? (I assume you do worry about abuse, otherwise you wouldn't ask the question in the first place)

The same thing that prevents them from getting a better feat instead.*

*Being smacked with a book.

[peacenlove]

Wish is already a powerful and versatile spell. The better question is whether you wish to expand its utility. Also keep in mind that this ability will be given at 17th level. By then any feats obtainable via gold should be already present on characters and there aren't any non epic classes (to my knowledge) that can be entered at 17th level earliest.

+1 permanent to a stat is an epic feat (granted its an inherent bonus lowering it's value but w/e)
Bypassing feat / time prerequisites for crafting items is already gamebreaking.
Ability to undo many other spell effects, including bypassing immunities due to spell designator (teleportation, mind affecting)
"Free" Heighten Spell.
"Get out of jail card" effect.
Any feats given by the wish should be no stronger than these effects.
Most feats I have knowledge of are weaker than these effects however.

[Larpus]

(emphais mine)

This is kind of the point I'm making, in a roundabout sort of way. The Wish spell shouldn't be giving the Player exactly what he wants. The defined parameters are generous enough. If a character wants more than that, then the player is going to have to chance the 'other effects' clause that Wish has. To me that says that "you get what you Wish for" and not "you get what you want".
In my personal view, it's a case-by-case thing.

I mean, if the player asks for something reasonable enough, which most feats are, even if he's not super perfect in describing it ingame, I don't see much point in screwing him over. It's like giving an empty plate to a hobo who asked you for a "plate of food", not a "plate with food".

If they try to abuse in any way, then sure, screw him over due to the minimal mistakes.

Oh, you want better resolution? Ok, then you're under a permanent Geas effect that will activate at every single mission you receive.

[ericgrau]

I was in a game that allowed 2 wishes per feat and 4 per epic feat. They were not a high optimization group and still it quickly got abused. The DM handled it pretty easily by increasing wish costs and setting feat caps though.

The problem is that wish has a fixed cost. Items with a fixed benefit get more and more expensive per +1 or other benefit, especially into epic levels. Whereas now feats do not. So eventually wish feats get better than spending your gold on anything else as you level up.

If you don't plan on going past level 20 it might be easier since you can set the cost based on level 20 wealth.

[Eldan]

I think that's a bad idea. Even if you grant poor feat what stops players from chaos-shuffle-ing them away? (I assume you do worry about abuse, otherwise you wouldn't ask the question in the first place)

Banning the chaos shuffle is a good starting point.

[TopCheese]

Well given that you could give PCs a feat for every level and still won't have that big of a problem in game... Give them any feat they want.

Heck you already have a Wizard powerful enough to cast Wish so I'm not worried about the fighter getting more "class features".

There aren't to many feats that will break the game like leadership soooo don't give them that one. *shrug*

[elonin]

I would allow it given that there are ways to get virtual feat. The power level wouldn't be broken with the cost of a wish. On the other hand I wouldn't let that use qualify for early entry to prc's.

[Augmental]

Other Feats will have different milage, though. Swift Hunter, Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus for example, are not a specific 'combat tricks' or the like, so Wish'ing specifically for them is going to be pretty tricky.

"I wish for the knowledge of how to apply my hit-and-run tactics to my hunting abilities."

"I wish for the power to strike many fleeing enemies at once."

"I wish for my evocations to be more difficult to resist."

[Tyndmyr]

If they wish for something that is appropriate, and that can be most easily mechanically represented by a feat, I'll do it that way. Feats aren't sacred...extras aren't the worst of things, but it's definitely well off the safe list, so I'll exercise discretion about what sort of things are allowed.

Elonin, anyone using wishes for early prc entry has already been allowed a pretty wide berth for wish access. The vast majority of PrCs are enter-able without major cheese long before wish becomes readily available.

[navar100]

If Wish is a quest reward, one feat is fine.

If Wish is part of treasure, such as a ring, luck blade, one feat is still fine.

If Wish is a PC casting the spell, wishing someone or the party has a feat for a minute per level is fine whenever desired as cast. Otherwise, limit one feat total for permanently having.

[TopCheese]

Now that I'm on my computer I can add something else in regards to feats being a class feature.

Wait? You are going to give your players a class feature for one wish? Why don't we just give someone evasion, wild shape, or even bardic music? I can't understand why people want to throw around class features.

Ok that is out of the way...

What I want to do now is in a game become a high powered Wizard and offer early entry to PrCs and to give people new abilities... As payment I'll want IOUs, so that instead of myself going off to find stuff, I'll just send a party of people who owe me...

This would be a good start to a game... I might use this later, I'll have the PC's all owe a wizard for free feats that he gave them... Hmmm...

[navar100]

Now that I'm on my computer I can add something else in regards to feats being a class feature.

Wait? You are going to give your players a class feature for one wish? Why don't we just give someone evasion, wild shape, or even bardic music? I can't understand why people want to throw around class features.



Not as a permanent thing, but for one minute or one round per level per casting giving everyone in the party evasion is fine. Giving wildshape is just Polymorph. For the party, Chain Polymorph equivalent, 8th level spell equivalent, within Wish parameters. Even one bardic music effect is fine. Can't give someone spellcasting since that involves more than one spell, beyond the scope of Wish, unless you duplicate Imbue With Spell Ability. However, giving someone the ability to cast a spell once is fine since that's just duplicating a spell. Even if it's more powerful than Contingency it's not too much powerful. It is a Wish after all. While there are limits to Wish it still allows for powerful effects.

[Akal Saris]

In a L18 game, I allowed the sorcerer PC to cast Wish up to 3 times to permanently gain the Extra Spell feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I really don't see any problem with it. At lvl 18 any semblance of balance has already fallen to the way-side, so what're a few more feats going to hurt. On the 4th one he's given up an entire class-level for them, by the 8th he's given up two.

If he's getting multiple wishes from a SLA there's no saving the game from his overpowered-ness anymore anyway.

[Korivan]

Id have to ask what feat. If they really want to blow 5k experience on a feat, perhaps. Also, depends on the viability of xp farming. I can see the potential for abuse, but I don't see that the case with only allowing feats they normally qualify for, and strict following of xp cost.

And as for the candle of invocation trick, thats never been abusable with how we play with them. First, you can only gate in creatures of your alighnment, know the kinds creatures that grant wish (often needing their name), and without a sufficient caster level (or character level) you can't even control them. And even then, the demons casting of with extract xp from the demon, to me, falling under the "contractual" aspect of the spell. Perhaps thats not how the candles supposed to work (sure its based on caster level of candle), but I don't care.

[NichG]

In my opinion, its far too easy to get free Wishes to allow any sort of indefinitely expansible permanent power boost from using a Wish.

If Wish were much more stringent in how seriously the game took its cost, I could see doing this as a way of introducing E6-style feat gain to a game that isn't actually E6 (namely, Wish becomes a way to pay 5k xp for a feat). But when you can substitute gold for xp (i.e. purchasing a scroll of Wish, a Luckblade, a Ring of Three Wishes, etc) I get nervous, especially since there are many ways to shoot past wealth-by-level if your players are clever (or if you run a world where you actually can take advantage of spells that produce permanent things for profit). This is even leaving out things like Gate/Planar Binding trickery.

You could adopt the same limit for feats as Wish has for stats: if you want N feats total from wish, you have to cast N Wishes on subsequent rounds. That would lessen my objection. I still think it'd end up being a significant power jump in high-power games.

Honestly if I were to implement this kind of thing in a campaign, I'd come up with an explicit schedule of 'X xp for Y benefit' and then create a new spell that lets the target creature make a trade according to the chart. Call it "Odgen's Soul Exchange" or something like that. In a campaign I was in, the going rates were 3000xp for a feat, 2000xp for a stat point, 500xp for a skill point, 200xp for a hitpoint, 10000xp for an epic feat, 5000xp times character level for a class feature (where character level is the earliest level you could get that class feature normally). That was a very high-powered campaign, so I might double prices those for a lower-power campaign.

[Karoht]

Genie: You want what feat? Oh, okay.
*genie wiggles his nose and bobs his head*
*Character writes down the feat on the sheet*
DM: What are you doing.
Player: Writing down that I got the feat.
DM: Why?
Player: Um. Because I wished for it.
DM: How do you know you got it?
Player: Good point. Okay, I'll test it out...

~5 minutes later~
Player: Okay so... why isn't this working?
DM: He gave you access to the feat as per your wish.
Player: Right so why isn't this working?
DM: Are access to something and having something the same thing?
Player: *Facepalm* Okay, so now what?
DM: When you level up you gain a feat at that level right? You can have it then.
Player: I could have done that anyway. I wanted it now!
DM: I guess you should have worded it more carefully.


***I am not encouraging the above to take place in your campaign, but if it does, PM me so I can laugh***