PF, Synthesist HP questions

[Scarlet-Devil]

So, I had my first session playing a Synthesist summoner yesterday, and I think I screwed up a little. I forgot that the eidolon's hit points were temporary, so they can't be healed by normal healing magic.

If the eidolon gets down below 0 HP, and I start using fused link to sacrifice my own hit points, then my 'real' HP is decreased. Is my normal pool of hit points, which is 'under' the temporary HP from the eidolon, healed normally by cure spells and channeling?

Also, since the eidolon and I share feats, are the eidolon's hit points increased by Toughness, as well as the summoner's?

[ThiagoMartell]

Your hit points can be healed normally and Toughness affects both you and the eidolon. Remember the eidolon does not always have the same amount of hit dice as you do, though.

[Andvare]

I see no reason why the Eidolon exoskeleton should benefit from toughness.
That would be like taking the dodge feat, and getting +2 AC. It isn't a separate entity any more.

[Scarlet-Devil]

...Toughness affects both you and the eidolon.


I see no reason why the Eidolon exoskeleton should benefit from toughness.
That would be like taking the dodge feat, and getting +2 AC. It isn't a separate entity any more.

Let's try and get some sauce on these. And likewise, if an eidolon has the ability increase evolution for CON, does the summoner gain the extra hit points too?

[Andvare]

Let's try and get some sauce on these. And likewise, if an eidolon has the ability increase evolution for CON, does the summoner gain the extra hit points too?

The Synthesist uses the Eidolon's con stat, as long as the Eidolon is active. So it would affect the Synthesist, but only when the Eidolon is called. Somewhat like a barbarian's rage, without the fatigue.


The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own.

That is pretty much the only thing mentioned about the Eidolon and feats.
And I take that to mean that toughness would never affect a Synthesist's Eidolon exoskeleton, because it doesn't have the feat.

[Scarlet-Devil]

The Synthesist uses the Eidolon's con stat, as long as the Eidolon is active. So it would affect the Synthesist, but only when the Eidolon is called. Somewhat like a barbarian's rage, without the fatigue.


Right, but the eidolon has hit dice of its own, with its own pool of hit points. So, do both sets of hit dice benefit from the extra con?

[Andvare]

Right, but the eidolon has hit dice of its own, with its own pool of hit points. So, do both sets of hit dice benefit from the extra con?

Yes, indirectly, and only as long as the Eidolon is up. Because the Synthesist use the Eidolon's con. So when that goes up, s/he does benefit from it.
However, this does mean that the Synthesist does not normally benefit from a high personal con score, as he does not use his own physical stats when the Eidolon is present.

Edit: An example.
A first level Synthesist, with a con of 14, have 10 hp (8 from die, +2 from con) at first level, but only 9 when he is fused with his Eidolon (8 from die, only +1 from con, as his con score now is 13). If his Eidolon takes the con ability increase evolution, he now has 10 hp when fused with his Eidolon.
Another Synthesis only has a con score of 9, so his has 7 hp at first level, but 9 when fused with his Eidolon, and 10 if the Eidolon has the Ability Increase (con) evolution.
Do note that having a lower base con than your Eidolon can be dangerous, because when you lose the Eidolon, you also lose the extra con, and thus the extra hit points associated with this.

[ThiagoMartell]

Upon further reading, it does seem Toughness would not apply to the eidolon.

[Andvare]

Upon further reading, it does seem Toughness would not apply to the eidolon.

Yay, I'm right! for once

:smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Toughness does not apply to the eidolon suit.

You can heal your own hp normally and keep the suit at 1 temp hp or whatever.

To heal the suit, you need to use Rejuvenate Eidolon spells, as the FAQ clarified. Fortunately it's on your list, is just as much a cheap wand (lesser) as cure light wounds is, and it heals 1d10 +1/CL (max 5) instead of a d8, so it's actually BETTER healing, too.

[panaikhan]

One thing I keep thinking about, with Synthesist.
Can the eidolon have negative HP? Is it banished once it is unconscious, or does it have to be 'killed' the same as a PC? If so, you have an extra buffer of 10 to Con HP that might just save your neck, as the Eidolon goes down.

[Barstro]

One thing I keep thinking about, with Synthesist.
Can the eidolon have negative HP? Is it banished once it is unconscious, or does it have to be 'killed' the same as a PC? If so, you have an extra buffer of 10 to Con HP that might just save your neck, as the Eidolon goes down.

From the SRD (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist)

The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane.

[Darth Grall]

Having just made a Vampire Synthesist recently as the BG of the next arc in my homebrew campaign I feel I can contribute to this somewhat.

Keep in mind that they've specifically stated that since the Synthesist's Eidolon is temp HP the only way to heal it is the Rejuvenate Eidolon spells, as mentioned previously. Not even the fast healing evolutions heal this temporary hp apparently. Of course, as long as you have fused link, you just get healed yourself and then when the eidolon gets low you just transfer it enough hp to stay alive(in which case you want to save your rejuvenate spells until you're truely out of hp).

This is a very cool archtype... just very poorly written imo.

[Andvare]

You can't transfer HP to your eidolon.
You can only prevent it from taking damage, and only if it is about to be destroyed:


Whenever the temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being killed and sent back to its home plane.

You can not transfer hit point to your eidolon.
You can only heal your eidolon with Rejuvenate Eidolon.

It is a very common mistake, in fact, I have yet to see a GM that does not make it. It matters because you can yourself be healed, and do so over time, whereas your eidolon cannot be healed by resting.

[ThiagoMartell]

I don't think anyone said you can transfer hp to your eidolon.

[Darth Grall]

You can't transfer HP to your eidolon.
You can only prevent it from taking damage, and only if it is about to be destroyedYes, since fused link says, "each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being killed and sent back to its home plane." It doesn't grant it any temporary HP, just prevents damage.

However, it can still be a legitimate tactic to wait until a summoner's real HP is low. Since they can "sacrifice any number of his own hit points", they can keep "the suit" up as long as they have HP to sacrifice and prevent damage. Even if the Eidolon is at 1 Temp HP, it's functioning at full strength

IMO this is widely more advantageous to the Synthesist than the traditional summoner link, since with their new con mod they likely have MORE real hp to donate to the eidolon. Furthermore, unlike a traditional eidolon where the link only works when the eidolon is about to be killed and are at negative levels, this works at 1/0 Temp HP, thus means that ultimately they don't have to transfer as much to keep the thing going while it's at negative HP, not helping you much.

[Andvare]

I don't think anyone said you can transfer hp to your eidolon.

Darth did, before his edit. Seems like he just mistyped though.
Something I never do and if you believe that, I have a nice bridge you can buy :smallwink:.


I like the summoner and all its archetypes (even firstworlder, even though it is just a nerf allround, seriously, not one of that archetypes powers does anything but nerf it).
I like the possibilities for fluff, the abilities it they grant ingame, the versatility of both eidolon and summons.
The rules for the summoner however, the synthesist especially, are not very well written.

[RndmNumGen]

So yeah, Synthesist is tricky. I played one for a while, and I'll try to summarize it below:

When the Eidolon-suit is not out, the Synthesist uses her own CON modifier to determine hitpoints. She gets no other bonus.

When the Eidolon-suit IS out, the Synthesist uses the Eidolon's CON modifier to determine her hitpoints, AND the Eidolon's CON modifier to determine her temporary hitpoints.

Enhancement, Morale, or other temporary bonuses to CON(such as from a Belt of Mighty Constitution, Bear's Endurance or Rage) increase BOTH the Synthesist's CON and the Eidolon's CON. This means HP will be increased in both normal and fused forms, effectively allowing the Synthesist to 'double dip' CON scores.

Toughness or other abilities which directly add hitpoints ONLY affect the Synthesist's normal hitpoints, not the temporary ones gained from the Eidolon. Bonuses to temporary hitpoints from other sources(such as False Life) do not stack, and will not provide any benefit unless they grant more temp HP than the eidolon does(in which case you're probably doing something very, very wrong).

The temporary HP from the Eidolon can ONLY be healed by a Rejuvenate Eidolon spell or the Eidolon's Fast Healing ability; no other method will work.

An Eidolon must retain at least 1 temporary HP to remain out. If the Eidolon is dismissed for any reason(including the synthesist being knocked unconscious), they lose all bonus HP they got from the Eidolon's CON, just like a Barbarian coming out of rage would. This means at higher levels, a Synthesist will likely die immediately after being knocked unconscious.

[ThiagoMartell]

Fast Healing works? Were did you see that ruling?

[Darth Grall]

Fast Healing works? Were did you see that ruling?Yes I am curious myself as I had seen the opposite ruled in the "One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all" thread (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz44hz?One-Synthesist-Summoner-Thread-to-rule-them-all#1). Of course this could have been over turned, the thread is over a year old.

EDIT: And a pain to sift through :/

[Andvare]

The temporary HP from the Eidolon can ONLY be healed by a Rejuvenate Eidolon spell or the Eidolon's Fast Healing ability; no other method will work.


Not true.
The FAQ (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8k8r/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Magic#v5748eaic9ob7) states that:



Summoner: How does a synthesist (page 80) heal damage to his eidolon?

Because the eidolon gives the synthesist temporary hit points rather than having a separate pool of normal hit points, effects that cure hit points don't restore the eidolon's temporary hit points. This technically leaves you unable to heal the eidolon. To remedy this, effects that specifically restore hp to an eidolon (such as rejuvenate eidolon) restore temporary hit points to a synthesist's eidolon. This does mean those spells end up as a sort of must-have "spell tax" for synthesists, but the advantage of being a synthesist is your eidolon's hp are a buffer between you and damage, unlike a normal summoner who can be targeted separately from his eidolon.

Even the Fast Healing evolution, or other fast healing or regeneration effects, restore hit points rather than temporary hit points, so they heal the summoner, not the eidolon's temporary hit points.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/03/11

So only Rejuvenate Eidolon works.


Fast Healing works? Were did you see that ruling?


Yes I am curious myself as I had seen the opposite ruled in the "One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all" thread (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz44hz?One-Synthesist-Summoner-Thread-to-rule-them-all#1). Of course this could have been over turned, the thread is over a year old.

EDIT: And a pain to sift through :/

It is probably because the first (edit: sorry, second) answer in that thread also claims that Fast Healing works. It apparently was a accepted, if not official, rule for quite some time.

[RndmNumGen]

Not true.
The FAQ (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8k8r/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Magic#v5748eaic9ob7) states that:



So only Rejuvenate Eidolon works.





It is probably because the first (edit: sorry, second) answer in that thread also claims that Fast Healing works. It apparently was a accepted, if not official, rule for quite some time.

Ah, you are correct. Interesting, and good to know.