Arcane spellcasters can spontaneously heal?

[Mordenkainen]

After flipping through Complete Divine, I think I just found a combination that I certainly wouldn't allow in my game. If I read it right, as a first level human wizard you can worship a god of healing (Pelor, most likely) and take Arcane Disciple [healing domain]. This adds the healing spells of the Healing Domain to your spell list. Then you can take the feat Spontaneous Healer to be able to spontaneously cast healing spells? This sounds like a fairly big hole in the book to me.

Sorcerers are even worse. At fifth level you could spontaneously cast cure light wounds and apply Reach Spell to it, giving you the ability to heal the fighter on the front lines? I understand that the metamagic feat costs two spell slots higher than normal, but still, this seems pretty major.

[eggs]

Why not? Healing isn't something new to non-clerics, and doing it spontaneously is not exactly a worthwhile use of resources.

[Augmental]

Eh, the Cure X Wounds line of spells aren't worth the cleric's time, and he gets to spontaneously cast them for free. Having to spend two feats on it is even worse.

[Gnome Alone]

If there's a reason not to allow that, it'd be because an arcanist spending their turn to heal, and on the front lines no less, is a huge waste of their potential. "Well, hmm, I suppose I could summon this unnameable horror from beyond to help Joe out with that owlbear who's eating his face... or wait, I could heal him for 1d6+3! Yeah, that'll do it."

[Novawurmson]

Or, you know, the Sorcerer could keep putting points in Use Magic Device, and, with Cha-synergy, make UMD checks to activate wands of Lesser Vigor/Cure Light Wounds after combat. Nevermind the Warlock...

[Psyren]

If that's your threshold for power, you may want to tie your hat down while browsing these forums, lest it get blown off :smalltongue:

And we're actually tame compared to some places (like BG/MMB.)

[Urpriest]

One point that gets made: a Cleric has a straightforwardly better chassis than the Wizard. Better armor, better saves, better hit points, better base attack bonus, and interesting domain abilities that often do a lot more than a Wizard's familiar and bonus feats. What then is the Wizard's advantage? Spells. A Wizard gets better spells than a Cleric. As such, if a Wizard uses a spell that a Cleric could cast instead, they are wasting their potential.

[Novawurmson]

And we're actually tame compared to some places (like BG/MMB.)

Got on Min/Max Boards to see how the playground compared.


[Regarding the PF Rogue]...You implied that the rogue was merely getting [rude], when in reality he's being brutally [rude] by the archfiends of hell using FATAL's ruleset.

:smalleek:

Yeah, we're a bit nicer here.

[Analytica]

One point that gets made: a Cleric has a straightforwardly better chassis than the Wizard. Better armor, better saves, better hit points, better base attack bonus, and interesting domain abilities that often do a lot more than a Wizard's familiar and bonus feats. What then is the Wizard's advantage? Spells. A Wizard gets better spells than a Cleric. As such, if a Wizard uses a spell that a Cleric could cast instead, they are wasting their potential.

Only in situations where you have a cleric willing and available though. If a game is mostly "classic party has encounters together", this is of course a reasonable assumption. Myself, I always see the arcane healing options and think that they will come in handy once my blasphemous plans make the clerics shun me, or in case my familiar is hurt when no regular healer is around, or...

[ericgrau]

Spontaneously casting cure spells isn't a huge deal for 2 feats, or 3 with reach. It is a big versatility boost but with the limited power of cure spells it's only useful every so often, especially in melee before you blow a full 3 feats to reach spell it.

Being able to cast heal at all seems like the bigger problem. That's a boost in versatility and power. Sure, the wizard might cast better spells a lot of the time, but just having such a powerful additional option when needed is too much. Later mass heal brings it way over the top. For only 1 feat? No way.

[Mordenkainen]

Thanks, everyone. No, I didn't mean it was especially powerful, I guess I was somewhat strict with the roles of the different classes. I'll make sure to keep an opener mind on these forums. Thanks again.

[Psyren]

Got on Min/Max Boards to see how the playground compared.



:smalleek:

Yeah, we're a bit nicer here.

Well, I was referring more to expected minimum optimization levels, but we're definitely tamer tone-wise too :smalltongue:

I can't speak for many other fora though (e.g. 1d4chan. or WotC itself) because I'm mostly here.

[Analytica]

Spontaneously casting cure spells isn't a huge deal for 2 feats, or 3 with reach. It is a big versatility boost but with the limited power of cure spells it's only useful every so often, especially in melee before you blow a full 3 feats to reach spell it.

Being able to cast heal at all seems like the bigger problem. That's a boost in versatility and power. Sure, the wizard might cast better spells a lot of the time, but just having such a powerful additional option when needed is too much. Later mass heal brings it way over the top. For only 1 feat? No way.

You can only use it once per day with Arcane Disciple though. And you need wisdom 19 and to worship a deity with the healing domain, which you need to be the same alignment as.

[Lostbutseeking]

Spontaneously casting cure spells isn't a huge deal for 2 feats, or 3 with reach. It is a big versatility boost but with the limited power of cure spells it's only useful every so often, especially in melee before you blow a full 3 feats to reach spell it.

Being able to cast heal at all seems like the bigger problem. That's a boost in versatility and power. Sure, the wizard might cast better spells a lot of the time, but just having such a powerful additional option when needed is too much. Later mass heal brings it way over the top. For only 1 feat? No way.

Arcane disiciple isnt over the top until a SCM is performing shadow miracles. In addition to costing a feat it's 1/day per spell level and makes you MAD.

Also all wizards get Heal via limited wish (off the Adept spell list where it is a 5th level spell).

[jaybird]

I can't speak for many other fora though (e.g. 1d4chan. or WotC itself) because I'm mostly here.

I don't think anyone familiar with the internet should have to wonder about the typical tone on a board with "4chan" in its name :smallbiggrin:

[Crasical]

I don't think anyone familiar with the internet should have to wonder about the typical tone on a board with "4chan" in its name :smallbiggrin:

/tg/, the tabletop games board on 4chan, isn't quite as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It's certainly no /b/.

[maximus25]

/tg/, the tabletop games board on 4chan, isn't quite as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It's certainly no /b/.

/tg/ is actually a great place for advice. They also have fun quest threads and custom card threads for MtG.


One of the best boards on 4chan, along with /sci/.

[TypoNinja]

Spontaneously casting cure spells isn't a huge deal for 2 feats, or 3 with reach. It is a big versatility boost but with the limited power of cure spells it's only useful every so often, especially in melee before you blow a full 3 feats to reach spell it.

Being able to cast heal at all seems like the bigger problem. That's a boost in versatility and power. Sure, the wizard might cast better spells a lot of the time, but just having such a powerful additional option when needed is too much. Later mass heal brings it way over the top. For only 1 feat? No way.

Yea, If I'm making an arcane caster I can think of way better things to spend my precious feats on than adding the healing domain to my known spells. I think you'd be better off Thurgeing if you were that attached to the ability to heal.

[pyromanser244]

not to be condescending, but have you even looked at the bard spell list? not any of the special ones, straight from PHB. he is a spontaneous caster of arcane magic who can cast cure spells. it is as standard legal as anything gets.

[Gnome Alone]

Hey, enough with the criticizing Mordenkainen already, he even said he'd try to keep a more open mind. That's like, solid internet gold right there.

[gorfnab]

A Wizard can qualify for the Combat Medic (Heroes of Battle) prestige class with the feat Arcane Disciple. The capstone ability of the Combat Medic allows you to spontaneously cast the spell Heal. Also, many of the creatures on the higher end of the Summon Monster list can cast Conjuration: Healing spells as either spells or spell-like-abilities.

[Zdrak]

Also, many of the creatures on the higher end of the Summon Monster list can cast Conjuration: Healing spells as either spells or spell-like-abilities.sacrificingsummoning minions: is there any problem it can't solve?

[Shpadoinkle]

/tg/, the tabletop games board on 4chan, isn't quite as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It's certainly no /b/.

/tg/, in my experience, is actually quite civil for a barely moderated board. Granted you'll get people calling you every name in the book because you don't share their opinions, and trying to actually have a constructive conversation is an exercise in futility, but it's a great place for brainstorming ideas and getting inspiration from picture dumps, and there are some pretty awesome story threads every now and then. There was one recently, Ozzmar the half-orc paladin, that I really liked.

[Dimers]

You need high Wisdom to use Arcane Disciple
A bard can spontaneously cast curative spells

Oh, the ninja-nnity ...

But there's still one more significant point about Arcane Disciple + Spontaneous Healer. You're limited to using the latter feat WisMod times per day. Even if you're already rockin' that 19 Wisdom to get the full array of domain spells, you can use spontaneous conversion only four times a day -- and only for cure spells, not for other spells that provide hit point healing. I liked the idea when I came across it, too. When trying to build a character who could use the combination to good effect, I found out that it's a lot of investment for little return.

[Duke of URL]

If you really want a reach-based healing arcanist, you can always try Mystic Theurge + War Weaver -- if you can use an early entry trick on the divine side for MT, you should get away with only 2 total arcane casting levels lost. To reduce MAD, make the divine caster an Archivist for Wizards or a Favored Soul for Sorcerers

[Novawurmson]

For PF, there's always the Hedge Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/hedge-witch) for your spontaneous arcane healing needs.

[Psyren]

Chirurgeon Alchemists are sort of "Reverse Spontaneous." That is, they have to prepare healing infusions, but they can spontaneously render any of them inert and prepare a more utility extract in their place as needed. So you could fill your extract slots for the day with healing, hand them out to the party/yourself, and then convert some of them to buffs or other utility during the day.

Since it takes a minute to make an extract either way, this works out in practice to being the same as leaving some of your extract slots empty to fill in between combats; the only difference is that if you're caught off-guard or otherwise don't have time to prepare, your allies can at least quaff the healing you handed out initially.

The nice thing about alchemist healing is that the party uses their own actions to do it rather than yours. But the unfortunate part is that they can provoke by doing so, and it take actions to fish the bottles out of their bags.

[ericgrau]

You can only use it once per day with Arcane Disciple though. And you need wisdom 19 and to worship a deity with the healing domain, which you need to be the same alignment as.
1 spell of each level. Still not so bad until level 17 I suppose; there is much worse abuse available. You only need a 13 wisdom and a magic item that scales with you.

A mystic theurge has obvious drawbacks. I wouldn't even put it down as a distant alternative, especially considering how spell level dependent healing spells are. It's maybe an option for buffs, utility and such, but not much for heals.

[Answerer]

A mystic theurge has obvious drawbacks. I wouldn't even put it down as a distant alternative, especially considering how spell level dependent healing spells are. It's maybe an option for buffs, utility and such, but not much for heals.
Duke of URL was specifically considering it for the purposes of War Weaver. Since War Weaver actively wants more low-level spells to stick in his weave, Mystic Theurge works much better there than it normally does.

Not convinced it's enough, but it's something.

[Andorax]

Another option for an arcane healer is to play a House Jorasco halfling in the Eberron setting and take the Dragonmarked Sorceror feat. Instead of getting a SLA from your dragonmark, you add your dragonmark SLA spells to your spells known list.

[Doxkid]

Oh man, this warms my heart; thank you for giving me some perspective.

[ericgrau]

I thought of a different combination that's a bit more abusive. Take arcane disciple then take a level of archmage to get heal as a 2/day spell like ability. 2 heals is usually enough to make the cleric useless as a healer. Another archmage level and quicken spell like ability can get you quicken cure serious wounds 3/day for 27 more HP to outdo the cleric, though that costs you a feat and as a wizard you might use your swift for something else.

[NichG]

Personally I don't mind this because its powerful, abusive, or cheesy.

I mind it because it dilutes the casting classes, which are already very diluted, even more. The big problem with casters in D&D 3.5 is that generally speaking any of the big casters (Cleric, Wizard, Druid, and to a lesser extent Sorc) can personally produce nearly any mechanical effect that is available in the system.

What that means is that there is really no role or theme protection. That wizard? He could be a physical combatant, a healer, a summoner, a blaster, an illusionist, a skillmonkey, etc. That cleric? With domains, the same deal. It means that the choice of Wizard or Cleric or Druid becomes more about which way is more optimal to get the things you want, rather than the more interesting choice of 'what things do I want? (this choice is still made, but now its made at a requisite higher level of system mastery which can exclude newer players). And of course, the non-casters are all frozen in their roles so if a caster decides 'I want to go this route' they don't really have anywhere to move to preserve their utility.

It also strongly dilutes the classes thematically. Its more or less common opinion here that classes are just packages of mechanics independent of their fluff. I don't think this needs to be the case in general, but it flows naturally from the spread of cross-theme options in D&D 3.5. That is to say, if you can build a wizard who functions in society as a fighter, it strongly sends the message that being a 'Wizard' or a 'Fighter' in terms of your class is pretty much completely invisible to the world, and its all about what you actually do. On the other hand, if classes were more firmly segmented then you could have a system where you really do have a stronger connection between class and fluff and theme, which allows a tighter integration of mechanics and fluff all around (which is something I personally prefer, though YMMV).