Pathfinderizing Fochlucan Lyrist

[Sajiri]

Edit: Showed this to my DM and he was all happy with it. He actually said it looked like it could use something more but I think it's good enough now. Huzzah.

Requirements
Skills: Linguistics (4 ranks) Diplomacy (4 ranks) Knowledge, nature (4 ranks) Perform, String Instruments (7 ranks) Sleight of Hand (4 ranks)
Language: Druidic
Alignment: Must be neutral on either the good-evil or lawful-chaotic axis
Spells: Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells
Special: Bardic Knowledge

Skill points per level: 6 + int modifier

Class Skills
Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (any) (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perform (Cha), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Class Features
Hit Die: D8
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fochlucan lyrists gain no proficiency with any weapon or armour.
Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level, a Fochlucan lyrist gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class and any one divine spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Bardic Knowledge

Bardic Music: A Fochlucan lyrist adds her lyrist level to her bard level to determine the number of rounds per day she can use her bardic music, the bardic music abilities she can employ, and the power of those abilities. She also adds her lyrist level to determine the time it takes to start a performance.

Unbound: A Fochlucan lyrist's druid oaths are relaxed, allowing her to wear light metal armor with no loss of spellcasting, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.

Nature Bond/Wild Empathy: Fochlucan Lyrist levels stack with druid. If the Fochlucan Lyrist already has Wild Empathy, she gains Greater Wild Empathy instead.

Nature Inspirer: When you use your bardic music ability to inspire courage, inspire competence, or inspire greatness in an animal or magical beast, it gains double the normal benefits.

Lvl/ BAB/ Fort/ Ref/ Will/ Special/ Spells per day/Spells known
1st +0 +0 +3 +3 Bardic knowledge, bardic music, nature bond, wild empathy, unbound +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
2nd +1 +1 +4 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
3rd +2 +2 +5 +5 Extra Empathy +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
4th +3 +2 +6 +6 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
5th +3 +3 +7 +7 Extra Empathy +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
6th +4 +4 +8 +8 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
7th +5 +4 +9 +9 Extra Empathy +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
8th +6 +5 +10 +10 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
9th +6 +6 +11 +11 Extra Empathy +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
10th +7 +6 +12 +12 Nature Inspirer +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

[Psyren]

The requirements- I had perform, string at 10 originally to match the original class's 13, but the DM said it should be lower than that for pathfinder so I reduced it to 7. I'm unsure about Evasion, while it was an original requirement, I feel it could and maybe should be dropped, but it's dependant on more I will say later.

1) Drop Evasion, it's even harder to get in PF and has nothing to do with the class anyway.

2) You actually had the right number (Perform 10) but your DM is right for a different reason - 10 is far too late to be entering a theurge. Instead I would relax the reqs to allow entry at 5 or 6, and consider dropping a caster level instead.

3) In PF, hit die are normalized to BAB. So if you're giving it d8 you need to drop it to 3/4.

4) The hardest question is what to do with the class. The fluff paints them as woodsy everymen, masters of wilderness lore, worldly music-lovers, champions of the downtrodden, advisors to royalty and even deadly assassins. I think part of the reason the class feels so scattered and disjointed is because they did such a poor job of nailing down exactly what it is a Lyrist is supposed to do.

My advice is to narrow its focus: no one class should be trying to fill so many roles at once. A character certainly can, by multiclassing appropriately or taking the right archetypes/feats, but even Chameleons don't try to be as spread out as these guys do (at least, not all at once.) By focusing the fluff, you'll get a better idea as to what kind of class features you think they'll need.

The primary interplay to me seems to be between nature magic and song magic. Starting there, my immediate thought is to make them more fey, as that's a good middle ground between the two disciplines. So I would expect the capstone to give them some kind of fey power or even be a fey apotheosis.

[Daftendirekt]

Bardic Music: A Fochlucan lyrist adds her lyrist level to her bard level to determine the number of times per day she can use her bardic music, the bardic music abilities she can employ, and the power of those abilities.

Bards don't have times/day for their music anymore. Now it is rounds a day. Might want to fix that.

[grarrrg]

1) Drop Evasion, it's even harder to get in PF and has nothing to do with the class anyway.

It's only harder to get because there aren't 30 Cheesey ways of getting it.
I admit that it doesn't really fit, but that's more of a Grandfathered in issue (dates back to 'Bard' being more of a "prestige" class from back in 1e).


2) You actually had the right number (Perform 10) but your DM is right for a different reason - 10 is far too late to be entering a theurge. Instead I would relax the reqs to allow entry at 5 or 6, and consider dropping a caster level instead.

I don't know that'd I'd drop it all the way to 5, but maybe 7 or 8.

On a related note: Dropping a Caster level may be a fair trade if you remove Evasion.


3) In PF, hit die are normalized to BAB.

LOLNOPE
Agent of the Grave: 1/2 Bab, d8HD
Dragon Disciple: 3/4 Bab, d12HD
Justiciar: Full Bab, d8HD
Living Monolith: Full Bab, d8HD
Rage Prophet: 3/4 Bab, d10HD

Full Bab, and a bump to d8 is perfectly fine.


4) The hardest question is what to do with the class. The fluff paints them as woodsy everymen, masters of wilderness lore, worldly music-lovers, champions of the downtrodden, advisors to royalty and even deadly assassins. I think part of the reason the class feels so scattered and disjointed is because they did such a poor job of nailing down exactly what it is a Lyrist is supposed to do.

Again, goes back to 1e.
Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29)
"Bards began the game as fighters, and after achieving 5th level... they had to dual-class as a thief... they had to dual-class again to druid. Once becoming a druid, the character then progressed as a bard."

[Psyren]

It may date back to 1e, but that's no reason to keep it around. And those "30 cheesy ways of getting it" are of much greater value from where I'm sitting (I wouldn't blow a feat, much less two, just to get Evasion.)



LOLNOPE

Exceptions that prove the rule, though I'll grant that PrCs are a likely place to bend it.

But giving a theurge full BAB? A theurge of two 3/4 BAB classes no less? What possible rationale could you have, besides inertia?

[grarrrg]

Exceptions that prove the rule

That's not how that phrase works, but it's how the majority of people use it so I'll let it slide.....THIS time.....


But giving a theurge full BAB? A theurge of two 3/4 BAB classes no less? What possible rationale could you have, besides inertia?

Besides inertia?
The WHOLE CLASS, as has been repeatedly pointed out, is a crazy hodgepodge of random stuff thrown together.
It's a Bard/Druid/Fighter/Rogue, why SHOULDN'T it get Full Bab and d8HD?

[Urpriest]

I think the question to ask here is what you want this class to be. Is it meant to be a Druid/Bard theurge, or a quirky 1e Bard simulator? The two are radically different goals, and you haven't made it clear here (maybe you said on the previous thread) which you have in mind.

[Sajiri]

Bards don't have times/day for their music anymore. Now it is rounds a day. Might want to fix that.

Ah I missed that. I had just copy/pasted the entire 3.5 class to a word doc and was adjusting from there, forgot to change that part I suppose.

As for what I want the class to be? Im really not sure. I think I view it as a bard first, with druid magic/features, rather than a druid with bard songs..if that makes sense. At least thats what I was aiming for giving it diplomacy/bluff talents (for now). It really is so spread out it's why I'm having so much trouble working out what to give it

[eggs]

You're NOT trying to make a first-edition bard in pathfinder, correct?

(That's still not clear, and is really at the crux of deciding how a PF Lyrist should work.)

[Sajiri]

You're NOT trying to make a first-edition bard in pathfinder, correct?

(That's still not clear, and is really at the crux of deciding how a PF Lyrist should work.)

No, Im not really trying to create 1e bard.

To repeat what I said I was looking for in alternative classes in my other thread- I'm basically after a nature themed class with social skills at the barest. I do like the jack-of-all-trades thing FL has going on, but I whole heartedly agree it needs more focus than what it already had.

I know what I want from it for a CHARACTER, which is to really go with the advisor and woodland champion part of it's fluff, say, one who works with those in power to ensure nature is protected, for example. However, something doesnt feel right about building the CLASS to suit what I want for one character from it

Edit: I'll add in, I do quite like the fey idea

[Psyren]

Besides inertia?
The WHOLE CLASS, as has been repeatedly pointed out, is a crazy hodgepodge of random stuff thrown together.
It's a Bard/Druid/Fighter/Rogue, why SHOULDN'T it get Full Bab and d8HD?

I know what it is. The real question - as has been asked many times already - is what should it be?

"Hodgepodge of random stuff" doesn't really fit PF design philosophy as I see it. The one exception is the base monk, and even Paizo realized it shouldn't be left that way.

[Sajiri]

I removed evasion as a requirement and reduced its BAB. Since I took away evasion it doesnt seem like it needs any rogue talents at all either so I removed them too. Now it's just a case of figuring out the last few features it gets.

I am thinking I do want to go with the fey idea, though Im really stuck on what to give it, and I think I want to give it some more bonuses to its bard abilities somewhere

[Sajiri]

Okay, I'm pretty happy with it overall now. I've been adding and removing quite a few things but overall I think it's okay. I had in some inspire courage bonuses but it seemed a bit odd in the end.

How is it looking now? Im just having trouble working out what to give it at 10th level. I view it's music and spellcasting as it's main features, rather than a bit of everything (hence the removal of evasion and rogue talents, and lowered BAB). But I am still having trouble working out an ability to define it in the end.

[grarrrg]

Requirements
Language: Druidic
Alignment: Neutral Good, Neutral, Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil
Spells: Ability to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells
Special: Bardic Knowledge


Actually, you can probably change the Alignment requirements to just "Partially Neutral", as PF has removed the "Non-Lawful" restriction from being a Bard, leaving only the Partially Neutral requirement of Druid.

It may or may not be important that Bards get 1st level spells right away at 1st level (as opposed to 2nd or 3rd level for 3e Bards).

But what is DEFINITELY notable is the fact that PF Bards can eventually start their Performances as Move (level 7) or Swift Actions (level 13).
You should either incorporate 'faster' performance as either tied into the "Bardic Music: stacks with Bard" ability, or add them as their own abilities (maybe level 5 and 10?)

[Sajiri]

Actually, you can probably change the Alignment requirements to just "Partially Neutral", as PF has removed the "Non-Lawful" restriction from being a Bard, leaving only the Partially Neutral requirement of Druid.

It may or may not be important that Bards get 1st level spells right away at 1st level (as opposed to 2nd or 3rd level for 3e Bards).

But what is DEFINITELY notable is the fact that PF Bards can eventually start their Performances as Move (level 7) or Swift Actions (level 13).
You should either incorporate 'faster' performance as either tied into the "Bardic Music: stacks with Bard" ability, or add them as their own abilities (maybe level 5 and 10?)

Both good points, I'll change the alignment restriction. As for the faster performances, I had been thinking about that myself earlier along with whether or not it should advance certain bardic abilities- I decided no to the abilities and forgot about the rest