BAB and HP houserule

[the_archduke]

So that melee can have nice things, I came up with the following houserule.

Never roll for hp

no automatic maximum hp at 1st level

at every level, you multiply your gained BAB by your HD to get your gained hp

for example

Paladin: d10 x 1 = 10 hp

Wizard: d4 x .5 = 2 hp

Cleric: d8 x .75 = 6 hp

High HD classes can take a beating even without investing in CON and low HD low BAB classes have to invest heavily in CON or be glass cannons. It also eliminates the unfairness of a barbarian rolling a 1 for hp the same level the wizard rolls a 4.

It nerf wizards and gives melee nice things, is there a glaring problem I am missing here?

[Morithias]

It nerf wizards and gives melee nice things, is there a glaring problem I am missing here?

It does hurt a few classes that don't need to be nerfed. I don't think the healer needs to lack HP when really it's considered the same tier as the fighter, but that might be an exception to the case.

Also what about the WarHulk, it gets no BAB so does it get no hp?

[Hirax]

This does not address what makes casters powerful or non-caster weak. Neither of those things have anything to do with HP.

[Novawurmson]

Abjurant Champion.

::bows::

[the_archduke]

You don't think 2 hp a level hurts the wizard? I know they are tiny gods, but it is statistically weaker than rolling for HP for them.

This is more of a buff to melee than a nerf to casters anyway.

[HunterOfJello]

This would need to be modified for classes that have generally inappropriate BAB or HD amounts. For instance: Druids have d8 HD, which I think should be lower (or increase the Ranger to d10 like in PF). Psychic Warriors also have 3/4 BAB, which should really be Full BAB, but was avoided in order to make the Fighter not seem obsolete.


I really do like the idea a lot! However, I think each character will need to be examined on a class by class basis, of what would be appropriate for that exact class setup. (PF could be a good guide, they changed lots of this stuff around a bit.)

[Novawurmson]

The Fighter gets health
The Wizard's wishes come true
Tier problems remain

Edit: sytems=> problems

[the_archduke]

The Fighter gets health
The Wizard's wishes come true
Tier problems remain

Edit: sytems=> problems

This doesn't even pretend to level the playing field between classes. That isn't the point. The wizard can still tell the Universe to sit down and shut up... he just needs to be mindful of staying away from sharp bits of metal.

Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian get much beefier and do better at their jobs by not needing to be healed/buffed/or rez'd nearly as much.

[the_archduke]

This would need to be modified for classes that have generally inappropriate BAB or HD amounts. For instance: Druids have d8 HD, which I think should be lower (or increase the Ranger to d10 like in PF). Psychic Warriors also have 3/4 BAB, which should really be Full BAB, but was avoided in order to make the Fighter not seem obsolete.


I really do like the idea a lot! However, I think each character will need to be examined on a class by class basis, of what would be appropriate for that exact class setup. (PF could be a good guide, they changed lots of this stuff around a bit.)

More tweaking obviously needed, but making all clerics cloistered is a start. PsyWar has access to Vigor, so I don't worry about him.
Druid probably should be d6 rather than d8

[Novawurmson]

What specifically are you trying to change with this? You've lowered the (3.5) Wizard's health by 2 at level 1, and by an average of .5 at every level beyond that. That's an average of 11.5 health lost at level 20. You're increasing the chances that a player will get instagibbed at level 1 by a crit...in which case they'll just roll up a new character.

The Wizard already rips like tissue paper in terms of raw HP. That's why Wizards pick up spells like Mirror Images, Blur, Fly, Invisibility and the like - so that they get hit as rarely as possible. All you'd do with this is (mildly) discourage gish builds.

[Godskook]

1.Its marginally nice for melee types(the d10+d12 crowd) and for anyone with full BAB.

2.Its barely noticable on rogue-types(d6 + 3/4 BAB crowd)

3.Its technically a buff to the typical divine caster(d8s average 4.5, but this way, you get 6)

4.Wizards will feel the burn between levels 1-6, but they were already feeling it already, so its really silly to nerf them here. Post-6, they've either hit the point where spells give them enough survivability to make this a non-issue, or they've gone into the plethora of prestige classes that bring them back up to par.

AND FINALLY:

This makes lvl 1 combat ridiculously worse for PCs in general, cause of how weapon damage works.

[the_archduke]

How does this discourage Gish builds? 10 hp from Ab Champion compared to 2 from wizard? How is that a discouragement?


I thnk this makes a huge difference

Compare at level 6

Barbarian 72 hp + 6*Con

Paladin 60 hp +6*Con

Ranger 48 hp +6*con

Monk 36 hp +6*con

Rogue 24 hp +6*con

Cloistered Cleric 18 hp +6*Con

Wizard 12 hp +6*Con

[eggs]

HP-bloat is the last thing 3e needs.

Increasing HP rules is a Red Queen for the characters who benefit most: The Fighter might be tougher, but he needs to wear through more monster/enemy HP, which means fights take more time, which means the Fighter eats more attacks, which means the Fighter needs to be tougher....

Increasing HP for the 3/4 BAers is a mixed bag: Those in the Fighter's situation, who need to target HP to contribute aren't going anywhere and might even be outpaced by the strengthened creatures around them; those that can target other defenses like the Artificer and Cleric get more HP, which is nice.

Decreasing HP for the 1/2 BAers kind of sucks, but how often do you think the Wizard is going to notice half a HP per level? If that were an increment that would really fundamentally change the game, I'd expect to be seeing Improved Toughness much more often in current builds. I guess the blasters like the Warmage might not be happy.

[ima donkey]

In my group we houserule that you can reroll anything below half your HD.