Pathfinder Gestalt Campaign Character assistance needed!

[ragedeluge]

Hey everyone!

I go by Rage and I'm new to the forums here, so Hi!

I've been playing D&D since 2nd Ed, for about 11-12 years or so.

As life progresses as many of you know it becomes more difficult to maintain a decent on going campaign. My good friends, (One of which is coming to Chicago from Washington) and I have agreed to begin a new campaign to take place on two consecutive weekends coming up.

Mike, has been nominated DM, here's the guidelines:

3rd level Pathfinder Gestalt characters, take two classes and mash them together. You get all the abilities and skills of both but take the higher of the saves, BAB, HP.


So before I had made up my mind the party has already chosen much of their paths:

Ben - Human Unkown (If I had to put money on it I'm betting Rogue/Ninja)
Keith - Unkown Race Oracle / Sorceror
Ryan - Human Anti-Paladin / Rogue
Joy - Dwarven Monk / Druid
Garret - Dwarven Zen Archer/Rogue

Despite the line-up whatever it may be, I usually go big. STR is my characters only concern, ever. In the past I've dabbled in sunder based characters, massive two handed damage toons, just about everything. This time I wanted to try something different.

Barbarian/Alchemist
My main focus is going to be on Overrun.
SO, Dwarven is my first choice given the alternate racial +2 Combat Maneuvers on Overrun.
With Alchemist I am going Ragechemist for huge STR bonuses, the whole potentially getting more retarded when being hit thing adds fun flavor in my eyes XD Not to mention being an alchemist I can bottle up some Enlarge Person to become large sized (More STR and +1 CMB)

Barbarian was my next obvious choice, I want to rage of course, but more importantly was the Rage Powers Overbearing Advance and Overbearing Assault for +DMG on overrun, and multiple overruns in the same charge.

My question and or need of advice lies here. My characters game is all about battlefield control. He gets in quick and creates a path of knocked down foes for the party to follow up on and slay. I'm in between two barbarian archetypes.

My first thought was to go Armored Hulk barbarian, +1 Overrun and 30 speed in full plate armor isn't bad, also +AC vs critical confirmations. My fear though is that even though 30 speed wearing full plate is cool, I'll be obsolete AC wise pretty quickly. Choosing this my AC is like 21 and 20 when raged, mutated and Large. BUT my overrun CMB=+21, CMD=32 vs overrun and 27 vs mostly everything else.

After that I started to think, man I have no clue how tough the baddies are going to be but if they can breach my measly 20 AC I have no other defensive set up other than improved Overrun being a large character HOPING I can blast a hole before getting ruined.

So I though maybe I should go with the Invulnerable Rager, I won't be wearing heavy armor BUT the DR helps quite a bit considering my main focus aside from the overrun rage powers is completely on fast healing in the alchemist and rage power trees. So by level 8 I can start on the +DR rage powers. My only concern with the Invulnerable Rager is that heavy DMG opponents will pass through the DR like butter.

Either way! I know I won't have an awesome defense considering my toons goal is crowd control and initial assault. I'm designed to run in and knock everyone down like a freight train before getting hit.

So community, let me know what you all think I should do. Ideas and advice is welcomed to better solidify my thoughts to either archetype.

~Rage

[QuidEst]

Wow… lot of sneak-attack going on there!

First off- don't go Ragechemist. It's a trap. Really. You're playing with low Will saves and you're not pumping Wis. Virtually every turn you're in melee, you make a will save with a stacking penalty to avoid an Int penalty. You will last three to five rounds in combat before dropping unconscious. In the meantime, a caster can put any will-save spell on you, practically guaranteed.

Suggestions for Two-Handed Smashery:

Paladin + Oracle of Battle for two-handed smite-y goodness with awesome mobility (seriously- you can move on other people's turns), full BAB, and the ability to combat heal yourself and others as a swift action. You're also a full divine spontaneous caster. Later levels let you pick up DR 10/Adamantine for an hour or two per day.

Ranger + Inquisitor is a self-buffing damage machine. Inquisitor lets you pile on general attack/damage bonuses, while Ranger lets you tack on favored enemy bonuses. At level 10, you can make anything a favored enemy with a spell. If you're going for two-handed smashing, you can pick up the relevant feats with the ranger's bonus feats.

Barbarian + Oracle of Battle -> Rage Prophet for instant fun. It lacks the Alchemist's boosts to strength, but it gets you swift healing spells while raging. Take the "Lame" curse, and you become immune to fatigue! Plus, get far enough into Rage Prophet, and you can start using spell slots to maintain rage. You also get good progression in on Will saves, and the fun of being able to move on other people's turns. (You may have to see if your Rage Prophet levels stack with Oracle levels to qualify for revelations via the Extra Revelation feat.)

Barbarian + Vivisectionist Alchemist -> Master Chymist gets you a little sneak attack damage. But there's already so much sneak-attack going on, you say! Yeah, but you're not going to be using your bombs, are you? So you might as well get sneak attack damage instead. Master Chymist will get you most of what you want from Ragechemist without knocking you out in thirty seconds. What, specifically? Well, you get a separate alignment while transformed, you may be forced to turn into it if you fail a will save, you get two extra uses per day of your mutagen without having to drink it, and you can start applying cool bonuses to your transformation. A little natural armor, double duration, more strength bonus, bonus to will saves with a free reroll, you name it.

Low AC, you say? We're going to take the hitpoints route. You're already playing with the best hit die in the game, and you'll have plenty of Con. But that's still easy to beat down. Second-level Discovery: Spontaneous Healing. Sixth-level Discovery: Healing Touch. What's this get you? Well, you get fast-healing 5 as a free action for a number of rounds per day equal to your level. Pretty much an extra five hp/level. If you're already using d12 HD for 6.5/level, and your Con is 16 at the lowest, you'll be walking around with 14.5 hp/level on average. At level 12, Alchemist is giving you +4 natural armor, +6 Str, and +4 Con for longer than a full adventuring day. AC is around 20 + enchantment bonuses if you dump to 10 Dex and aren't raging.

[Mjollnir075]

If I had to add in any commentary, it would be that DR is almost always considered superior to AC. Pretty much unanimously on this board people will recommend the Invulnerable Rager over the Armored Hulk.

As for Alchemist, Either Vivisectionist, as mentioned by QuidEst, or even straight Alchemist (because bombs are cool, though if you can, see if your DM will allow Bombs to be at will instead of only so many per day. Compared to most things some of the other characters can pull off, I wouldn't call it overpowered by any means). Master Chymist is awesome, by the way. Probably my favorite PrC in PF.

[grarrrg]

First off- don't go Ragechemist. It's a trap.
Agreed.


Paladin + Oracle of Battle for two-handed smite-y goodness with awesome mobility (seriously- you can move on other people's turns), full BAB, and the ability to combat heal yourself and others as a swift action. You're also a full divine spontaneous caster. Later levels let you pick up DR 10/Adamantine for an hour or two per day.

Paladin + Oracle can be good, but keep in mind, most of the abilities mentioned are VERY limited in uses per day.
Metal Mystery is also worth a look for a Melee build, it can also get you Armor Mastery similar to what a Fighter would get.

Couple alternate ideas, Make an Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13120545&postcount=5). Oracle of Life on one side for the Spells, Channeling, and Life Link, Paladin on the other for Lay on Hands, MORE Channeling, and Weapon/Armor.

Or, use Lore Oracle (or Nature Oracle) and take the Revelation that gives CHA to AC instead of DEX, and take the Noble Scion feat (war option) to get CHA to Initiative. Then DUMP DEX!!
Sadly, Lore/Nature are otherwise poor choices for a Melee-Oracle, maybe at level 6-ish switch out Oracle for PrC's.


Ranger + Inquisitor
Solid, but nothing all that 'Synergistic'


Barbarian + Oracle of Battle -> Rage Prophet

Gestalt is probably the ONLY time Rage Prophet can be a good choice, as you can still take Barb/Oracle on the other side to keep getting Rage Powers/Revelations.
I'd go either full Barb on the one side, 5 levels of Oracle followed by Prophet on the other. Final totals would be Barb 20//Oracle 10/Prophet 10 (not in that order)
OR
Mostly Barb on the one side, Throwing in a level of Oracle on the levels that Prophet does NOT advance casting. Final totals would be Barb 17/Oracle 3//Oracle 10/Prophet 10 (not in that order)

Also, read the 'Paladin//Oracle' section for thoughts on CHA-to-AC.


Barbarian + Vivisectionist Alchemist -> Master Chymist

The only problem I see with this, and it's a minor problem, is that you can't use Extracts while Raging.
That is all.



New suggestions: Your group seems to be (slightly) lacking in Arcane power.
Wizard//Magus(Kensai)
Wizard is pretty straight forward.
Kensai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai) gains an AC bonus equal to his INT mod (or his Magus level, whichever is LOWER), and gains some Bonus feats and eventually gets INT to Initiative, Crit-Confirm rolls, and number of AoO's he can make in a round.
At 6th level, take the Broad Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/broad-study-ex) Arcana, you can now use your Wizard spells with your Magus abilities.
PrC options:
Take 2 levels of Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war) to use INT instead of DEX for AC, yes, INT to AC TWICE! Can take more levels if desired, it has d10HD, Full Bab, and 6 Skills/level. Recommend you replace Magus levels with Student of War.
Can also take Eldritch Knight levels (in place of Wizard) to gain d10HD and Full Bab.

Can also make a rocking Arcane Archer
Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Sorc on one side, Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) Monk on the other.
Empyreal lets you use WIS for Sorc casting, and Zen Archer uses WIS for to-hit and AC.
Take levels of Sorcerer on the levels that Arcane Archer loses Casting. Take Zen Archer up to either level 8 or level 12.
To get the required Bab faster, you may want to go Monk 4/Fighter 3. For Fighter archetypes, either Archer to Disarm/Feint/Sunder at range, or Weapon Master for +1 to-hit and damage.

Lastly, in keeping with the Rogue heavy theme the rest of the group has, the Sneak-Charger.
Easy Version (DANGER! HIGH CHEESE CONTENT): Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout)Rouge//Synthesist Summoner
At level 4 Scout Rogue automatically trigger Sneak Attack anytime they make a Charge.
Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) Summoner 'becomes' their Eidolon. Take a Quadruped base, because it's the only one that can take Pounce. Then add as many Natural Attacks and Arms+Weapons as you can.
Best race is Half-Elf as you can use Favored Class bonus for extra Evolution Points.

Hard Version (low cheese version): Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist//White Haired Witch/Scout Rogue/Barbarian
Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) can gain various abilities via his Mutagen, notably Pounce at level 10 (at this point you can keep going Alchemist, or switch to Master Chymist). Vivisectionist trades Bomb damage for Sneak attack.
White Haired Witch gets a Hair Primary Natural Attack at level 1. That's all the Witch that's needed.
Scout Rogue, as above, only 4 levels (due to how Gestalt works, this will NOT get you more Sneak dice when taken with Vivisectionist).
Barbarian can gain a Gore attack while Raging at level 2 (Lesser Fiend Totem power). Continue taking levels of Barbarian for more Rage and Bab.
Preferred Race is Tengu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tengu) as they can have a Bite and 2 Claw attacks from level 1.

So at level 10+ you can Mutagen+Rage gaining +8 (or more) Str and Pounce.
When Charging you can make a Full Attack with all of your Natural weapons, which consist of:
Bite 1d3
Claw 1d3 x2
Hair 1d3 (+INT instead of STR to damage)
Gore 1d8
EACH gaining 5d6 (or more) Sneak Dice.

[Metahuman1]

Dip one level of Oracle and Add Barbarian too it on one side, and then Add Synthesist Summoner on the other.

Alternatively, Synthesist to one side, and Alchemist to the other to buff your combat ability's.

[grarrrg]

Dip one level of Oracle and Add Barbarian too it on one side, and then Add Synthesist Summoner on the other.

Alternatively, Synthesist to one side, and Alchemist to the other to buff your combat ability's.

Please use the Quote Button, as given the number of builds mentioned, I have NO idea which one you are commenting on.

[Metahuman1]

I wasn't talking about a posted build. I was suggesting a pair of possible builds.



Barbarian 1/ Oracle 1/Barbarian 18 // Synthesist Summoner 20.

Oracle after a few levels will get you immunity to fatige, so that every round you can activate rage, use a once a rage power, and end rage, then do it agian next round. Barbarian get's you d12 Hit dice, full BAB, strong fort save, and Rage powers. And on the other Side, Snythesist let's you progress Fused Eidolon, which turns you into a combat monster all by itself. As well as there own spell casting, though you likely don't care about that so much. Still, can be useful for keeping you worth having around when there's nothing to kill.


Or,

Alchemist X/ Alchemist related PRC X OR Alchemist 20 // Synthesist Summoner 20. Get a few neat tricks between your Alchemy and Summoner spell casting when there's nothing around to kill, and use Fused Eidolon juiced up on mutagens and potions and the like that the Alchemist half get's you to destroy the things to kill when they are there.


Make more sense now?

[jmelesky]

New suggestions: Your group seems to be (slightly) lacking in Arcane power.
Wizard//Magus(Kensai)
Wizard is pretty straight forward.
Kensai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai) gains an AC bonus equal to his INT mod (or his Magus level, whichever is LOWER), and gains some Bonus feats and eventually gets INT to Initiative, Crit-Confirm rolls, and number of AoO's he can make in a round.
At 6th level, take the Broad Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/broad-study-ex) Arcana, you can now use your Wizard spells with your Magus abilities.
PrC options:
Take 2 levels of Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war) to use INT instead of DEX for AC, yes, INT to AC TWICE! Can take more levels if desired, it has d10HD, Full Bab, and 6 Skills/level. Recommend you replace Magus levels with Student of War.


Sadly, that doesn't work. Kensai:


A kensai is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.

Student of War (emphasis mine):


When using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class.

Duelist, on the other hand, would stack just fine, except you need one Duelist level for each point of Int bonus. Generally not worth it, but in a gestalt campaign with Broad Study and Wizard as your other class, it becomes much more attractive.

[grarrrg]

I wasn't talking about a posted build. I was suggesting a pair of possible builds.

Barbarian 1/ Oracle 1/Barbarian 18 // Synthesist Summoner 20.
Or,
Alchemist X/ Alchemist related PRC X OR Alchemist 20 // Synthesist Summoner 20

Make more sense now?

Yes, thank you.


Sadly, that doesn't work.

Well...
TO THE CHEESE FACTORY!

Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields) both have 0% spell failure, and 0 Armor Check Penalty.

INT to AC.
Twice.

[jmelesky]

Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields) both have 0% spell failure, and 0 Armor Check Penalty.

As does the armored kilt, as it turns out (though it has a +6 max dex). Makes one wonder why Light Armor Proficiency is necessary, given the number of light armors with a 0 ACP.

Of course, nothing prevents you from grabbing enough levels in Duelist to get Int to AC three times.

[grarrrg]

As does the armored kilt, as it turns out (though it has a +6 max dex). Makes one wonder why Light Armor Proficiency is necessary, given the number of light armors with a 0 ACP.

Well, the Armored Kilt is HEAVY, it weighs 10lbs. and also costs 20gp.
Whereas the Haramaki is only 1lb. and costs 3gp.
Or if you like to go for Style Points, the Ceremonial Armor still only weighs 4lbs. but costs 30gp.

And Light Armor prof. can still be useful for (non-casting) classes with low-ish DEX, the best 0 ACP armor still only gives +3 AC (of course, the 'best' light armor still only gives +4 AC so...)


Of course, nothing prevents you from grabbing enough levels in Duelist to get Int to AC three times.

I've always wondered about that.
Not enough to find an actual answer mind you, just wondered.

How do Kensai and Duelist Canny Defense stack?
I can see 3 ways.

They work separately, but do NOT stack:
If you have INT of 18, 2 levels of Kensai, and 3 levels of Duelist, you would get +3 AC because Duelist > Kensai.

Add effective levels together:
A Kensai 2/Duelist 3 has an 'effective' Canny Defense level of 5, with an INT of 18, this would give a bonus of +4 AC.

They apply separately AND stack:
Kensai 2/Duelist 3 with 18 INT would have +5 AC.


Assuming it's the 3rd (and 'best') option, then it's still up for grabs if you WANT to invest in Duelist at all. Kensai gets some pretty nice INT-abilities.
7th level adds INT to Initiative (DUMP THE DEX!), and you can make AoO's while Flat-Footed.
9th adds INT to Critical Confirm rolls, and counts Kensai Levels as "full bab" to qualify for Critical Focus and related feats.
11th gives "Combat Reflexes" based on INT (DUMP THE DEX!)
13th gives INT as bonus damage during the Surprise round or vs. Flat-Footed opponents.

Going with 2 levels of Student of War doesn't leave a lot left, and you still may want to advance Magus features.

[ragedeluge]

Thank you all for the great advice and suggestions!

The ragechemist states when hit you must save vs 15 Will to not be gimped, 20 save if it's a crit. I believe my will save at level 3 would be +7 (18 wisdom and raging) So I would be safe above a roll of 8. Perhaps still too risky though XD

I was pretty set on my idea before getting all this feedback and now I'm considering expanding.

One class I have never had the pleasure of playing before is the gunslinger. I was skimming through the books and liked the thought of the Gun Tank / Spellslinger(Wizard) mixture. But I have to go back in and determine whether the spell failure would make that idea obsolete. Perhaps Musket Master plus the Spellslinger? I like the synchronization between the Spellslinger and any gunslinger archetype.

Off topic I wanted to clarify an ability the Gun Tank gets - Bullet Deflection, it states the Gun tank better utilizes his armorto deflect firearm attacks, I suppose I tried to bring too much logic to the ability than the text provides (A common occurrence!); an armor able to better deflect "non seige" firearms should provide the same yield versus lesser physical projectiles, no? For example the bow or sling?

Alright I just got back from work so I wanted to get my two cents in there. I'm going to eat then review the mixtures folks here have offered. What's everyone's thoughts on the Gunslinger Gestalt idea? Most DPS >8D

[jmelesky]

Well, the Armored Kilt is HEAVY, it weighs 10lbs. and also costs 20gp.
Whereas the Haramaki is only 1lb. and costs 3gp.
Or if you like to go for Style Points, the Ceremonial Armor still only weighs 4lbs. but costs 30gp.

True, but the Armored Kilt isn't "Eastern", if that's an issue.


And Light Armor prof. can still be useful for (non-casting) classes with low-ish DEX, the best 0 ACP armor still only gives +3 AC (of course, the 'best' light armor still only gives +4 AC so...)

Exactly. It seems like a feat tax for Arcane Armor Training and the heavier Armor Proficiencies.


I've always wondered about that.
Not enough to find an actual answer mind you, just wondered.

How do Kensai and Duelist Canny Defense stack?

My reading of it has always been that they stack in the 3rd way. There's nothing about stacking in the rule text, which tends to mean that they're considered independent abilities that scale separately (see the ruling on getting Channel Energy from more than one class, for example).


Assuming it's the 3rd (and 'best') option, then it's still up for grabs if you WANT to invest in Duelist at all. Kensai gets some pretty nice INT-abilities.

True on all counts, though you still don't want to dump your dex, since your dex modifier is still added to (or, more importantly when talking about dumping, subtracted from) your AC.

Still, given that Kensai is already dealing with reduced casting, and we're relying on the Wizard gestalt, losing caster levels isn't as much of a disappointment.

Let's say we go Kensai 13/SoW 2/Duelist 5 // Wizard 20. What do we miss out on from the Magus? Well, the 19th and 20th level Kensai abilities are gone, but they were gone once we went SoW, so no loss there. That leaves Greater Spell Combat (not a huge loss) and Counterstrike (also not a big deal), as well as some Magus Arcana and a bonus feat.

In exchange, you get another +5 to AC (assuming Int is 20 or higher), +5 to all weapon damage (Precise Strike, not huge but something, especially with a crit build), Combat Reflexes (which explicitly stacks with the Kensai Superior Reflexes), +2 to initiative and all Reflex Saves, and the Parry/Riposte combo (not huge, but flavorful).

So, might be worthwhile.

[Chained Birds]

Student of War + Kensai

Didn't think this build would be wagging into battle wearing a Kilt. What Race would he/she be? Ratfolk with Dervish? Elf with Elven Blade? Either one would be representing that Kilt proudly!

[grarrrg]

True on all counts, though you still don't want to dump your dex, since your dex modifier is still added to (or, more importantly when talking about dumping, subtracted from) your AC.

Actually, you CAN dump your DEX (assuming you take 7+levels of Magus/Kensai for INT to Initiative)
Student of War:
"can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class"
Doesn't matter if our DEX Mod is Positive, Negative, or Cantaloupe.


In exchange, you get another +5 to AC (assuming Int is 20 or higher), +5 to all weapon damage (Precise Strike, not huge but something, especially with a crit build), Combat Reflexes (which explicitly stacks with the Kensai Superior Reflexes), +2 to initiative and all Reflex Saves, and the Parry/Riposte combo (not huge, but flavorful).

So, might be worthwhile.
The only thing 'worthless' here is Duelist's Combat Reflexes if we dump DEX like I've been suggesting. But INT-to-#of AoO's doesn't kick in until Magus 11 (which will be level 13 after Student of War).

Hmm...
We could have Positive DEX and take the Combat Reflexes feat.
OR we could take Duelist first instead of Student of War, putting Duelist's Reflexes at about level 12 (Magus 8 for Bab, level 4 of Duelist).
OR we could take Magus straight until level 11 (ugh)
OR we could just wait until level 13 (Magus 7>Student of War 2>Magus+4)


Student of War + Kensai

Didn't think this build would be wagging into battle wearing a Kilt. What Race would he/she be? Ratfolk with Dervish? Elf with Elven Blade? Either one would be representing that Kilt proudly!

It's a Kilt Wearing Fireball throwing "You can't hit me cause I'm so smart" god of death.
It can be whatever race it WANTS to be...

But seriously.
(Going for a net +4 to relevant stats)
Assuming you don't want DEX, then all we need is STR, CON, INT:
...
There are actually NO races that have a net +4 to these stats. It seems that +STR races are ALWAYS STUPID...*grumble grumble*

Assuming you wouldn't mind some DEX then (STR, DEX, CON, INT):
Drow Noble
Hobgoblin +DEX, +CON
Merfolk +DEX, +CON, +CHA
Tiefling +DEX +/-Varies
Wayang +DEX, +INT, -WIS

Or, if going the Finesse route (DEX, CON, INT):
Drow Noble
Goblin -STR, ++DEX, -CHA
Hobgoblin +DEX, +CON
Merfolk +DEX, +CON, +CHA
Ratfolk -STR, +DEX, +INT
Tiefling +DEX +/-Varies
Wayang +DEX, +INT, -WIS

[QuidEst]

Well...
TO THE CHEESE FACTORY!

Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields) both have 0% spell failure, and 0 Armor Check Penalty.

INT to AC.
Twice.


Lastly, in keeping with the Rogue heavy theme the rest of the group has, the Sneak-Charger.
Easy Version (DANGER! HIGH CHEESE CONTENT): ScoutRouge//Synthesist Summoner
At level 4 Scout Rogue automatically trigger Sneak Attack anytime they make a Charge.
Synthesist Summoner 'becomes' their Eidolon. Take a Quadruped base, because it's the only one that can take Pounce. Then add as many Natural Attacks and Arms+Weapons as you can.
Best race is Half-Elf as you can use Favored Class bonus for extra Evolution Points

If we're doing silly cheese like this, take Knife Master Scout Rogue 9 // Vivisectionist Alchemist 10 first. Fill the other 21 slots with whatever you want, because at level 10, you deal 10d8 sneak attack damage and have access to Invisibility and Greater Invisibility, and the option to charge for sneak attack damage.


At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).

Unless the other players are going full-op, though, using a cheese build like that is just cheap.

But, with respect to the OP…

Alright I just got back from work so I wanted to get my two cents in there. I'm going to eat then review the mixtures folks here have offered. What's everyone's thoughts on the Gunslinger Gestalt idea? Most DPS >8D
Eh… I never liked the flavor on gunslingers much, and making them magical would feel odd. If I wanted DPS, I'd play Magus plus something. That's all fluff, of course, but I'd rather have the coolest character (in my mind, at least) than the highest damage-dealer.


an armor able to better deflect "non seige" firearms should provide the same yield versus lesser physical projectiles, no? For example the bow or sling?
You don't want that- you get a higher AC for physical projectiles already! They are ranged attacks, and are resolved against your full AC. Guns (and splash weapons) are special. They are ranged touch attacks, and resolve against touch AC. Your training allows you to take half your armor's enhancement bonus and apply it to your ranged touch AC under the circumstances listed. You're already getting your armor's full enhancement bonus to your AC against regular projectiles, and RAI won't let you double-count that.

[grarrrg]

If we're doing silly cheese like this, take Knife Master Scout Rogue 9 // Vivisectionist Alchemist 10 first. Fill the other 21 slots with whatever you want, because at level 10, you deal 10d8 sneak attack damage and have access to Invisibility and Greater Invisibility, and the option to charge for sneak attack damage.

Going by general Gestalt Rulings, you would only have 5d6 (or 5d8) Sneak Attack this way.
But if you can pull a fast one on the DM, who am I to judge?

The 'best' Sneak attack you can get would be, hmm....
Side A is straight Rogue 19 for 10 Sneak Dice. Finish off Side A with 1 level of Inner Sea Pirate, +1 Sneak Dice.
Side B starts Sandman Bard for 5 levels, only +1 Sneak Dice (but it's the only other Base class that's outright compatible with Rogue).
Then Assassin for 9 levels, +5 Sneak Dice.
6 levels left to work with... 4 levels of Pain Taster for +2 Sneak Dice.
There isn't much left that we can qualify for... 1 level of Master Spy or 2 levels of Halfling Opportunist for +1 Sneak Dice. Master Spy leaves a level left over, but there are no "1st level Sneak" classes that we can qualify for.

Total of 20 Sneak Dice, with 16 Bab (Pain Taster is Full Bab).

On a 'normal' build, the PF max is 12.

[QuidEst]

Going by general Gestalt Rulings, you would only have 5d6 (or 5d8) Sneak Attack this way.
But if you can pull a fast one on the DM, who am I to judge?

Ah, I didn't look at the specific Gestalt rules, figuring it was in the same vein as the x2 Int to AC. But that's adding Int to AC once and swapping Dex for Int to AC once, so they're different class features. Alas, no simple spell-damage progression to sneak attack. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

The ragechemist states when hit you must save vs 15 Will to not be gimped, 20 save if it's a crit. I believe my will save at level 3 would be +7 (18 wisdom and raging) So I would be safe above a roll of 8. Perhaps still too risky though XD

The main problem(s):
The Will Save is triggered every round that you take damage.
You plan on going Melee, so Damage>Save is a HIGH possibility.
EVERY time you fail the save you get -2 to your Will Save, making it more likely you'll fail the save the next time, and the next time, etc... until you are useless/unconscious.

If it didn't penalize the Will Save, then it might be useable, with only your INT as a timer, but the downward spiral of "Fail Save>More likely to fail the next save" is what kills it.


One class I have never had the pleasure of playing before is the gunslinger. I was skimming through the books and liked the thought of the Gun Tank / Spellslinger(Wizard) mixture. But I have to go back in and determine whether the spell failure would make that idea obsolete. Perhaps Musket Master plus the Spellslinger? I like the synchronization between the Spellslinger and any gunslinger archetype.

Gun Tank is HORRIBLE idea for Spellslinger, you need to be wearing Medium/Heavy armor for most of the abilities to function, and the only one that works with Light Armor doesn't really help you ("Oh, my Max Dex bonus is now +12, and my Armor Check Penalty is still 0" yay?).
There is some (small) potential with Gun Tank/Magus, as Magus can eventually cast in Medium/Heavy armor, but Guns and "Sword Magic" don't synergize very well.


ANY OTHER Gunslinger archetype would work fine. Although I'd shy away from Mysterious Stranger as it loses the Quick Clear Deed, and you have an increased chance of Misfiring (due to "If a creature makes a 20 on their save" from Spellslinger)


Off topic I wanted to clarify an ability the Gun Tank gets - Bullet Deflection, it states the Gun tank better utilizes his armorto deflect firearm attacks, I suppose I tried to bring too much logic to the ability than the text provides (A common occurrence!); an armor able to better deflect "non seige" firearms should provide the same yield versus lesser physical projectiles, no? For example the bow or sling?

The problem is that people read it as a "bonus" when it really is a "penalty reducer".
If I shoot an Arrow at you, it targets you normal AC, which is DEX bonus + Armor + etc...
But Firearms are are 'touch' attacks, so they ignore Armor.
So your Full Plate might give you +9 AC vs. a Bow+Arrow, but it will grant +0 vs. Firearms.
The Gun Tank ability lets you gain half vs. Firearms, so you gain +4 AC.


What's everyone's thoughts on the Gunslinger Gestalt idea?

If you want to make a Spellslinger, my suggestion would be Wizard(Spellslinger) for 1 level, and go Sorcerer with the Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Bloodline so you can use WIS for casting. Mysterious Stranger or Pistolero for your Gunslinger levels. Possibly add level or two of Monk for WIS-to-AC, Evasion and a couple bonus feats (and a slightly better Unarmed attack).
Final Build would be Sorcerer 20//Wizard 1/Monk 2//Gunslinger 17 (not necessarily that order).


Most DPS >8D
....
Prepare for cheese...

I present 2 builds, neither is Gestalt.
They are both insane in their own right.
You are likely to get Rulebooks thrown at your head for using either one as-is.
Making them Gestalt will only increase the mass/velocity/frequency of the books being thrown at you.
Use with caution.

Both builds make heavy use of Synthesist Summoner.

Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413)

(doesn't have a name, this is probably for the best) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245496)