Toughening the Trog

[Gwendol]

So, in our romp through the Forge of Fury my brave adventurers are about to face off against the troglodytes. As usual, the suggested opposition is a little weak for my taste (and their level) and I've been looking at ways to increase the difficulty.
The adventurers are level 5-7, and so for the regular trog I had thought of adding 2 HD. The trog favored class is cleric, which is interesting; so I've decided to give about half of them two levels of cleric, and the rest to be fighters (since the warrior NPC is... well not interesting). The leader will still be a sorcerer though I'm toying with the idea of mixing it up with the dragon disciple PrC, something like Trog sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4?

Any suggestions for cleric domains? Dragon and Cavern?

Since the orcs (on the upper level of the dungeon) are mostly barbarian, I wanted these encounters to feel somewhat different; less Raawrr, kill!!! and more facing a bunch of stinking zealots slinging de-buffs and generally being obstructive.

[Croverus]

How many Trogs are there? Keep in mind the CR 1 Trog is a monster with no class levels. Adding class levels to a Trog should by rules turn it into a CR 2. Each additional class level adds another CR point, technically. And then once that's done, every 2 Trogs you add to the first increases the CR of the whole encounter by 1 point.

From the sounds of it you have more than a handful of Trogs that you plan to give the leader 8 class levels (making it a CR 9 by itself) then all the other Trogs (who will each be turned into CR 3 guys) might make the whole encounter a double digit challenge.

Or amy I overestimating the encounter numbers here?

[Gwendol]

Well, they are unlikely to face the whole band at once, so that is of somewhat less concern. Giving the trogs 2 class levels makes them CR3 critters, which is of little concern to the adventurers. Furthermore, they have little in terms of equipment, and rely mostly on their natural weapons (certainly true for the clerics). At most they may face 5 CR3 trogs and the chieftain, although they are likely to have disposed of a few of them already before he arrives.

[Croverus]

Fair enough. What is the make up of the PC party? If they have spellcasting and healing of their own then I suppose this will be a challenge but the chances of any fo them dieing would be minimal.

[docnessuno]

I'd up the Cleric levels a bit to allow them to have a couple more spells, showing off their "clerical" side during encounters and allowing them to cast 2nd level spells

Troglodyte warrior 2 (nonelite array) - CR 3 - As Troglodyte except:
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 Dex, +6 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Heavy flail +5 melee (1d10+3); or javelin +5 ranged (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Heavy flail +5 melee (1d10+3) and bite +3 melee (1d4+1); or 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+2) and bite +3 melee (1d4+1); or javelin +5 ranged (1d6+2)
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +4*, Listen +2
Feats: Multiattack, Iron will, Power throw
Challenge Rating: 3
Equipment: Heavy flail, 4 Javelins, Hide armor

Troglodyte Cleric 4 (elite array) - CR 5 - As Troglodyte except:
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +2
Armor Class: 22 (-2 Dex, +6 natural, +6 banded mail, +2 heavy wooden shield), touch 8, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+4
Attack: Masterwork mornign star +6 melee (1d8+1);or claw +5 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Masterwork mornign star +6 melee (1d8+1) and bite +3 melee (1d4); or 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+1) and bite +3 melee (1d4)
Special Attacks: Stench, Spellcasting, Command undead
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft, Domain powers
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +7
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 6, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +9, Heal +8, Knowledge (religion) +3, Spellcraft +3
Feats: Multiattack, Improved initiative, Shielded casting, Forceful spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100432) [Dragon 358]
Challenge Rating: 5
Spells: Bless, Faith healing x2, Shield of faith, ?? [D]; Forceful command x2, Close Wounds, ?? [D]
Equipment: Masterwork mornign star, heavy wooden shield, banded mail, 2 potions of cure light wounds (CL1)
Domains and domains slots open to suit your tastes.

Encounters:
2 Troglodyte warriors - CR 5
2 Troglodyte warriors, 2 monitor lizards- CR 6
2 Troglodyte warriors, 1 Troglodyte cleric - CR 7
4 Troglodyte warriors, 2 monitor lizards, 1 Troglodyte cleric - CR 8
6 Troglodyte warriors, 1 Troglodyte cleric - CR 9
6 Troglodyte warriors, 6 monitor lizards, 2 Troglodyte clerics - CR 10

[Gwendol]

Druid 3/Sorcerer 2, Monk (Drunken master) 7, Beguiler 3/Fighter 3, Favored soul 5, Sorcerer 3/Fighter 2

[docnessuno]

Also, instead of using the dragon disciple PrC, you could go with a Dragon shaman as their leader, the Con sinergy is great and fits extremely well as a leader of a dragon-themed tribe.

Trogg leader:
Humanoid 2 / Dragon shaman 10 (CR 11)
Stats (elite array): 16+2 8 18+2 10 8 14
HP: 2d8+10d10+72 (136)
Feats: Multiattack, Improved natural attack (claws), Power attack, Maximize breath, Clinging breath, Improved toughness
Items: Beast claws [savage species], Breastplate +1, Belt of giant strenght +2, Amulet of health +2, Dragon spirit mask [reslot of Dragon Spirit Cincture, MiC].
Attack: Claw + 14 melee (2d6+6)
Full attack: 2 Claws +14 Melee (2d6+6), bite +10 melee (1d4+2)
AC: 21 (-1 Dex, +7 natural, +6 breastplate), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Alternate Class feature: Shamanic invocation (DrM): Learn See the Unseen invocation.
Draconic auras: All except resistance.

[Gwendol]

I have considered the dragon shaman as well, but they have already met a dragon shaman kobold, and I wanted to do something different.

[Runestar]

Clerics should be a non-associated class lv for trogs, so a trog cleric2 would be cr2 (likewise, a trog cleric4 would be cr4). Making him a half-dragon would up the cr to 6, perfect for a mini-boss of sorts. He would support the rest with buffs?

That said, trogs do have a hefty con and NA bonus, so I think they make excellent barbarians. Maybe 2 trog barb3 and a half-dragon trog cleric4 for an EL8 encounter?

[GenghisDon]

How many Trogs are there? Keep in mind the CR 1 Trog is a monster with no class levels. Adding class levels to a Trog should by rules turn it into a CR 2. Each additional class level adds another CR point, technically. And then once that's done, every 2 Trogs you add to the first increases the CR of the whole encounter by 1 point.

From the sounds of it you have more than a handful of Trogs that you plan to give the leader 8 class levels (making it a CR 9 by itself) then all the other Trogs (who will each be turned into CR 3 guys) might make the whole encounter a double digit challenge.

Or amy I overestimating the encounter numbers here? bold mine

not exactly, doubling the number appearing adds 2 to CR.

Going from 8 Trogs (EL 7) to 16 Trogs (EL 9), for example. 12 Trogs would be EL8. Not that CR & numbers to EL holds up very well anyway

I often feel that many of the classic D&D critters would really have been better served being translated into monstrous humanoids rather than humanoids. Troglodytes, Bugbears, Lizard men, ect, all come to mind. And why grimlocks AREN'T humanoids boggles my poor brain.

Still, the d20 Trog at least has some flavour.

[Gwendol]

Clerics should be a non-associated class lv for trogs, so a trog cleric2 would be cr2 (likewise, a trog cleric4 would be cr4). Making him a half-dragon would up the cr to 6, perfect for a mini-boss of sorts. He would support the rest with buffs?

That said, trogs do have a hefty con and NA bonus, so I think they make excellent barbarians. Maybe 2 trog barb3 and a half-dragon trog cleric4 for an EL8 encounter?

Ok, good to know. I'll probably make the elite trogs either cleric 4 or barb 2/fighter 2 (they'll have 2 trog HD, so CR3 total). I'll keep the boss sorcerer/dragon disciple (black), as it will hint at what they may encounter further below (Nightscale).

[Psyren]

You could also make their "shaman" be a subterranean Druid. It doesn't necessarily have to be a class with "shaman" in the title. Obscenely high Con would be a great benefit here too.

[Gwendol]

About domains: I'm currently considering Dragon and Tyranny (both in Tiamat's portfolio, which is fitting). Any other suggestions there?

I have (truth be told) no idea what gods the trogs worship- or are supposed to be worshipping, but these ones are devoted to the black dragon Nightscale. Speaking of which; I have planned to advance her to Young Adult. Will that be overpowering? My guess is that the party will have gained at least another level before encountering her (thus being in the 6-8 range).

[docnessuno]

Clerics should be a non-associated class lv for trogs, so a trog cleric2 would be cr2 (likewise, a trog cleric4 would be cr4). Making him a half-dragon would up the cr to 6, perfect for a mini-boss of sorts. He would support the rest with buffs?

That said, trogs do have a hefty con and NA bonus, so I think they make excellent barbarians. Maybe 2 trog barb3 and a half-dragon trog cleric4 for an EL8 encounter?

Considering it's their favored class and it's a quite capable fighter (heavvy armor and shield proficiency, medium bab) i wouldn't consider cleric as non-associated.

But the CR system is overall flawed, moreso when talking about non-associated class lvs. An human Cleric 4 has an ECL and CR of 4, a trogg cleric 4 has an ECL of 8 (way too high) and a CR of 5 (about right) or 4 if you consider cleric as non-associated (same as the human with 2 RHD on top of it)

For more extreme examples, a stone giant with 14 cleric levels is a CR 15 encounter (with epic feats!). An human cleric 15 is a CR 15 one. I don't really think they are an equal challange for a party.

[DarkEternal]

I'm pretty sure Forge of Fury was meant for level 3 or 4 at the highest, no? No wonder it's easy for you. Still, that Roper should be fun times for them.

[Gwendol]

It is which is why I've been making encounters a lot harder. If there is an interest I'll publish the tougher creatures for others to use.

[Keld Denar]

A hack I learned from Living Greyhawk was to add a single level of warrior to almost everything. It doesn't affect CR (as long as there are no other NPC levels), and it gives more BAB, more hp, and might result in an extra feat or stat bump. It is a dirty trick, but it is legal and generally doesn't make a huge difference at mid to high levels except add a tiny but more resiliency.

[Gwendol]

Good point, I'll use it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

About domains: I'm currently considering Dragon and Tyranny (both in Tiamat's portfolio, which is fitting). Any other suggestions there?

I have (truth be told) no idea what gods the trogs worship- or are supposed to be worshipping, but these ones are devoted to the black dragon Nightscale. Speaking of which; I have planned to advance her to Young Adult. Will that be overpowering? My guess is that the party will have gained at least another level before encountering her (thus being in the 6-8 range).

Troglodytes traditionally worship their god Laogzed, a monstrous being who devours all.

[LTwerewolf]

Use the Soviet Union/Zap Brannigan approach until you have them low on resources. (Sending wave after wave of your own trogs.) There's nothing saying (as far as they know) that there are a finite amount of trogs down there. Add a few extra rooms with nothing but beds and bam, instant army.