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View Full Version : How to speed up "shopping" in RPGs



yougi
2012-08-29, 10:39 AM
So in this group I DM, in between adventures/scenarios, we always spend this 2h part of a session which we spend on, mostly, shopping and stuff. Why? Mainly because my players don't know what they want. Yesterday, in our 6:30-10:30 session, the town they were in disappeared (although quite interesting, that part took about 30 mins), they met a player's new character, talked to the Baron who debriefed them and gave them a new assignment, and they shopped for about 2h. I mean, I play in a game where the shopping is part of the RP interactions we love, but in this one, it is not, it's never been, no matter how I tried. I mean, I don't actually care that much about them not liking it, if only it didn't take so much time, and leave so many of them not doing anything because, well, only one of them can talk to me at a time.

I thought of a few solutions:

- Tell them to look up the MIC and the DMG, come back with your list of stuff you buy. Which I don't like, because, first, my group is unexperienced (1st game for all but one) and often misinterpret rules, and clearing these up after they read about it somewhere is going to take more time. It also gives them access to ANY item, while I like to keep some items off limit, and create my own.

- Give them a time limit: I though of telling them: "shopping, you have 20 minutes, here's a list of what's available, with prices, and here's what they'll offer you for your stuff." This would directly address my problem. However, I mean, it takes away nearly all of RP interactions while in town, and any bartering possibility, and there's a difference between no deep relationship with shopkeepers, and "Mar-who? There's a Mage's Guild in this town?". It also puts a time pressure on them which does not act as immersion, as within the game, they probably don't have such time restrictions.

- Do that through email: It would solve all of these problems, would allow me to roleplay it with them while still not making 4/5 wait while doing nothing at all time. However, what to do when it happens mid-session? I mean, saying "we'll call it a night 2h early, and do that through email" doesn't solve the problem of gaming tame going to waste. Would there be a way to doing it ahead of time? And what about these groups where they often lend each other money when one of them can use something while the others can't?

- Cut magic item shopping altogether: Extreme solution. I think it would create more problems than it would solve, especially mid-campaign, although there could be some RP reason not to have such sales happening in the city where they usually stay. Then again, if they start going all over the world to shop, it would make it even more time-consuming.

So, what do you think I should do? What would you do?

TL;DR: Thread title.

tensai_oni
2012-08-29, 11:06 AM
Play a game where you can't really "buy" items, at least not anything of importance. Be it Exalted, Spirit of the Century, Mutants and Masterminds... actually, even Earthdawn or Warhammer Fantasy counts here.

So this seems to be a DnD-only issue.

valadil
2012-08-29, 11:41 AM
Don't give them free reign of the compendium. When they go shopping hand them a list of the dozen or so items that are available and move on. I like this approach because if the players buy anything they can just keep that item from the list instead of having to transcribe what the item does.

prufock
2012-08-29, 12:20 PM
I can't say it's really been a problem for me. The players generally know what items they want, I tell them if it's available or not and we move on. I use gp limits based on the size and wealth of the town, so I can easily say, for example, "any mundane or minor magical item" for an average trade town or "very little in the way of pre-made anything" for a tiny hamlet or "anything, but major items available only on commission" for relatively large capitals. Their item selection is mostly done between sessions, actual shopping in game. They can ask questions via message between sessions.

There isn't much roleplaying of this, because most shopkeepers don't have much of interest to say to heroic PCs. I kind of leave it to the players to lead the interaction in these cases. If they want to talk to the shopkeep, I'll indulge them, but it's generally boring.

PaintByBlood
2012-08-29, 12:36 PM
Don't give them free reign of the compendium. When they go shopping hand them a list of the dozen or so items that are available and move on. I like this approach because if the players buy anything they can just keep that item from the list instead of having to transcribe what the item does.
Seconded.
Sometimes, realism in your games helps a great deal - a lot of towns players encounter aren't going to have everything in every book from top to bottom, and that drops the list drastically.
Say a town has just a low-level alchemist, and a armor/weaponsmith. That's the limit of what can be bought there, and it makes sense.

Though it doesn't really solve the problem in some places.

Kiero
2012-08-29, 01:00 PM
- Cut magic item shopping altogether: Extreme solution. I think it would create more problems than it would solve, especially mid-campaign, although there could be some RP reason not to have such sales happening in the city where they usually stay. Then again, if they start going all over the world to shop, it would make it even more time-consuming.

So, what do you think I should do? What would you do?

TL;DR: Thread title.

I'd go still further: remove the magic item economy altogether. Just as there isn't really a meaningful market in rare antiquities in the real world (outside of a handful of places where they gather for auction), similarly you can't just turn up to a large-ish sized town and sell off magical loot.

Or better yet, remove magic items. The "enchantments" attach to the character, not their stuff, so anything they are using becomes effectively magical (and scales as time goes on).

kieza
2012-08-29, 01:54 PM
If they don't already have a specific item in mind, ask them, loosely, what they want, e.g. "A melee weapon that does more damage," "Armor that makes it easier to hide," "Some sort of healing item," and then give them some options to choose from. Make it clear that if they don't like any of the options, they're out of luck on this shopping trip, and they don't get to pick a new category.

Roleplay-wise, they can make a Gather Information/Knowledge (local)/Streetwise check to find a merchant dealing in what they want, and browse his wares to see if he has anything that fits the bill presently. If they don't like what he has to offer, well, that's the day wasted.

It may sound draconian, but it promotes decisiveness, keeps things quick, and discourages the attitude of "I don't know what I want, but you'd better give me something awesome," which I've noticed with a couple of players.

Kol Korran
2012-08-29, 01:54 PM
The bartering/ shopping roleplay interaction usually goes only so far. the experience at most times becomes repetitive. If you seek meaningful interactions with NPCs, create more interesting situations, ones involving more party members. Shopping is rarely such an experience, and surely not on a frequent basis. My players and mine prefer to shorten the shopping experience, though we still try to make it a bit interesting.

My method goes something like this:
- The players tell me in general (or more specifically in case of more involved players) what sort of items they seek, This goes from "I need a better defense" to "I need a mithril armor of displacement". I try to at least partially cater for their wishes. The more specific- the lesser the chance you'll find the item (Unless it's quite common). These they usually give me through email.

- I suggest your players DO start to read parts of the MIC- at the back there is a list of items by price. If they are low level, then there aren't many items. Might give them a better feel of the game. Slowly though, no pressure.

- Bartering is only for special items. All other items have a fixed buy and sell value. a few rare/ special items at each adventure may garner the use of appraise and bartering skills.

- At most locations I give the party a list of potential merchants, establishments and stuff for purchase. At bigger settlements this is only true for the major businesses. This cuts down on most of the hassle. Party members who are especially interested may seek items not usually for sale, things kept out of the general crowd, family heirlooms and such (usually by gather information, though we tend to play it a bit). These items may be things they are looking for, or something else alltogether. Yes, this may lengthens things a bit, but the party get the feel of "striking a deal"/ "finding the hidden treasure", which they like.

- If the party have money (and time) they might commision an item from a worthwhile item crafter.

usually the whole shabang takes us about 15-20 minutes.

Slipperychicken
2012-08-29, 02:43 PM
Players make shopping lists before game-time, or else already have something in mind before shopping. Then hand it to the DM and see if he approves of anything. That's what I do, and my shopping is very quick (a few minutes at most, only more if the DM doesn't approve of an item, or if he wants to roleplay a merchant encounter).


Use the game-terms, or make your own. Figure out how people in the world distinguish a +1 Longsword from a +2 Longsword. Call it a "Mark 2 Enhancement", or a "2nd Circle Longsword", or a "Mark 2 Longsword", or whatever. Special weapon qualities should be referred to by their proper names: Flaming, Vorpal, Speed, etc. Masterwork is fine, and can be kept too. The point is that you keep names short, quick, and precise, so you don't spend 20 minutes trying to describe a +2 Longsword.


If it won't add anything to the game, don't roleplay merchants, just say what items you bought. Same reason most groups don't have players roleplay urinating or eating: Of course your characters do those things, but that's not what you're here for, so you skip it.


For haggling, either roll to haggle or take the listed price. For 3.5, if memory serves, Complete Adventurer condenses haggling into one Diplomacy roll; succeed and get a 10% discount, fail and you take the listed price.

Grundy
2012-08-29, 04:13 PM
I'd go still further: remove the magic item economy altogether. Just as there isn't really a meaningful market in rare antiquities in the real world (outside of a handful of places where they gather for auction), similarly you can't just turn up to a large-ish sized town and sell off magical loot.

Or better yet, remove magic items. The "enchantments" attach to the character, not their stuff, so anything they are using becomes effectively magical (and scales as time goes on).

This is quite possibly the best idea I've heard in a while. Totally apocryphal, of course, but the magic item economy has always chafed me. I don't know that I could go whole hog on removing magic items, but I could totally see it for some things- weapons and armor, for instance. Then what magic items remain could be treated more like artifacts and less like #2 corn.

TomPliss
2012-08-29, 04:50 PM
- Tell them to look up the MIC and the DMG, come back with your list of stuff you buy. Which I don't like, because, first, my group is unexperienced (1st game for all but one) and often misinterpret rules, and clearing these up after they read about it somewhere is going to take more time. It also gives them access to ANY item, while I like to keep some items off limit, and create my own.I have the same "problem" here.
the thing is, I just go through the items lists (4e, so adventurer's vaults, PHBs, dragon magazines,... literally tons of stuff), and select 2 or 3 things that fits their characters, and make them more or less available (often within quests, not directly shops).

Also, the "dont roleplay merchants" works for me too, except for special times (he's the only one merchant in town, or there may be things related to the merchants of this town,...).

Once, I spent 2 hours, at the end of a (9+2 hours long) session fo the shopping part, as players found special loot during the quest, and the rogue wanted to steal something and played it with the bluffers of the team,...
But I asked them, before, if they wanted to play that or go to bed now (it was 6 AM before the shopping part ...)

darni
2012-08-29, 05:02 PM
The point is that you keep names short, quick, and precise, so you don't spend 20 minutes trying to describe a +2 Longsword.


I've never had trouble with this: «I'm looking for a plainly magically enhanced sword. My budget is about 8000gp»

Slipperychicken
2012-08-29, 11:34 PM
I've never had trouble with this: «I'm looking for a plainly magically enhanced sword. My budget is about 8000gp»

[Holds up +1 Sword]

"Here you go! One plainly magically enhanced sword, and at a real bargain: I'm offering it to you at only 8,015 gold!"

[Since you will never cast Identify on this sword, you will never know, nor would the merchant, and take the deal grinning like an idiot]

Rallicus
2012-08-30, 08:53 AM
I set up a forum for this exact reason. During a campaign about a year ago the session fell apart about 15 minutes in, because everyone was writing on their character sheets and shopping (including me).

So what I do is, unless the player absolutely cannot live without having the item during that particular moment, I make all shopping done during non-play times on the forum. This allows for some merchant roleplay if they really desire it, though I've yet to see that happen due to merchant roleplay for personal items being so... trivial.

tyckspoon
2012-08-30, 09:01 AM
[Holds up +1 Sword]

"Here you go! One plainly magically enhanced sword, and at a real bargain: I'm offering it to you at only 8,015 gold!"

[Since you will never cast Identify on this sword, you will never know, nor would the merchant, and take the deal grinning like an idiot]

[Until you either tell the player he's actually only getting a +1 bonus, at which point he goes after the merchant, or you forget to keep modifying those numbers he gives you for attack/damage rolls with that -1 so that he effectively *has* a +2 sword, or eventually he and another character 'hit' with the same narrow margin and he finds out that his '21 to-hit' isn't the same as Adventurer B's '21 to hit'...]

darni
2012-08-30, 10:01 AM
[Holds up +1 Sword]

"Here you go! One plainly magically enhanced sword, and at a real bargain: I'm offering it to you at only 8,015 gold!"

[Since you will never cast Identify on this sword, you will never know, nor would the merchant, and take the deal grinning like an idiot]

That has happened :smallsmile: and is the fair cost of not metagaming...

And it can happen anyway if you have a better way of describing a +2 sword.

Knaight
2012-08-30, 10:09 AM
That has happened :smallsmile: and is the fair cost of not metagaming...

And it can happen anyway if you have a better way of describing a +2 sword.

I wouldn't call having some sort of system to tell different magical items apart metagaming, particularly given the extent to which magical item identification is a part of the setting. Added to that, this seems like one stupid merchant - of all the things to try and sell fraudulently, and of all the people to try and sell things fraudulently to they sell dangerous weapons to unknowns in a job that absolutely requires being willing and able to kill.

Arbane
2012-08-30, 10:48 AM
I'd go still further: remove the magic item economy altogether. Just as there isn't really a meaningful market in rare antiquities in the real world (outside of a handful of places where they gather for auction), similarly you can't just turn up to a large-ish sized town and sell off magical loot.


But in D&D, most magic items aren't JUST rare antiquities, they're immediately-useful military hardware. (Of course, asking why most towns have a weapons dealer becomes a whole different question...)



Or better yet, remove magic items. The "enchantments" attach to the character, not their stuff, so anything they are using becomes effectively magical (and scales as time goes on).

Or this could work.

Slipperychicken
2012-08-30, 02:12 PM
That has happened :smallsmile: and is the fair cost of not metagaming...

And it can happen anyway if you have a better way of describing a +2 sword.

Point is, people would make names for these things. Call it a "Single/Double/Triple/Quad Enhanced sword", or a "Level 2 Enhancement", or a "Mark II Enhancement". That way you could accurately say the merchant swindled you, because he gave you X when you wanted Y, instead of using the same word for both.


Which reminds me; get someone to cast Identify on any magic item before you buy it. If you can shell out 8k on a sword, an extra 100gp to confirm its authenticity isn't a stretch. Even a humble Detect Magic would distinguish +1 and +2 weapons, since the former would have a Faint aura (CL3) and the latter a Moderate aura (CL6).

Grod_The_Giant
2012-08-31, 12:56 AM
I'd be wary of cutting out the magic item economy. I mean, it's something I would love to do with 3.5e D&D, but the system is balanced around everyone having their Christmas tree of shiny toys, and the weaker the class, the more it needs the items to compete.

I'd recommend telling your players to make wish-lists beforehand-- at the very least, when you know that they'll be approaching a settlement soon-- and not roleplaying shopping trips. Or, if you really want to, roleplay one scene per character.

I'd also recommend talking to your players. Something along the lines of "hey, last week we spent two hours shopping. I'm sure you'd rather be adventuring. Any ideas on how to speed that up next time?"

Kiero
2012-08-31, 04:06 AM
I'd be wary of cutting out the magic item economy. I mean, it's something I would love to do with 3.5e D&D, but the system is balanced around everyone having their Christmas tree of shiny toys, and the weaker the class, the more it needs the items to compete.


If you replace them with Inherent Bonuses, you can lose the economy and all the boring consequences of that, without the impact on classes that need them.

robertbevan
2012-08-31, 05:36 AM
Don't give them free reign of the compendium. When they go shopping hand them a list of the dozen or so items that are available and move on. I like this approach because if the players buy anything they can just keep that item from the list instead of having to transcribe what the item does.

i like this. i did something like it once (just for magic items available). i found a random treasure generator online (i don't remember where, i'd have to dig it up again) that let you generate (x) number of random magic items, and you could choose the power level that you wanted.

so i printed out 20 pages with about a dozen or so magic items on each one. every time the players visited the shop, they'd roll a d20. the corresponding page would be the items available that day. i thought it was kind of neat because it made it seem like commerce was happening while the PCs were away.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-08-31, 10:28 AM
If you replace them with Inherent Bonuses, you can lose the economy and all the boring consequences of that, without the impact on classes that need them.

Agreed, but it ain't simple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12260928).


i like this. i did something like it once (just for magic items available). i found a random treasure generator online (i don't remember where, i'd have to dig it up again) that let you generate (x) number of random magic items, and you could choose the power level that you wanted.

so i printed out 20 pages with about a dozen or so magic items on each one. every time the players visited the shop, they'd roll a d20. the corresponding page would be the items available that day. i thought it was kind of neat because it made it seem like commerce was happening while the PCs were away.

Ooh, that's good.

Dimers
2012-08-31, 10:38 AM
I'd be wary of cutting out the magic item economy. I mean, it's something I would love to do with 3.5e D&D, but the system is balanced around everyone having their Christmas tree of shiny toys, and the weaker the class, the more it needs the items to compete.

3.X wizards are also quite hard-hit by removing MagicMarts, because they learn few new spells when they don't have dozens of scrolls to look at. Healing-magic classes too -- they have to spend more of their own daily resources on keeping the party patched up, less on becoming CoDzilla, if there are no healing wands and such. Removing the standard "casts a spell for you" items can bring wide-ranging and unexpected changes to the gameworld.

That aside, I'd still add a caveat to your second sentence. The system assumes you have magic items if you're facing combat encounters at a typical CR. There's really nothing wrong with putting in lower-CR monsters in a gameworld with sparse magic.

@OP: That's basically my preferred answer. I shift the balance point for my games such that the characters don't need to shop just to survive, and I don't have that kind of shopping available. It makes magical loot more interesting, improves verisimilitude, and removes the immersion-breaking tedium of retail math.

Slipperychicken
2012-08-31, 12:23 PM
3.X wizards are also quite hard-hit by removing MagicMarts, because they learn few new spells when they don't have dozens of scrolls to look at. Healing-magic classes too -- they have to spend more of their own daily resources on keeping the party patched up, less on becoming CoDzilla, if there are no healing wands and such. Removing the standard "casts a spell for you" items can bring wide-ranging and unexpected changes to the gameworld.


A Wizard who builds for low-wealth doesn't notice as much (look up the "Easy Bake No Worries" Wizard), and careful spell selection means he can get by fine anyway. If he has lots of downtime and cash (1,000gp and 1 week per spell level), he can research to duplicate existing spells. If you rule that you can prepare from Secret Page, the Wizard literally couldn't care less about scribing costs. Non-casters are hit hardest, because they can't get the effects they're expected to have each level, and which appropriate encounters can crush them when they don't have them (Numerical bonuses, Flight, True Seeing, Mind Blank, Resistance, immunities, etc).

Pretty sure the CoDzilla build gets a preposterous number of turn attempts, even before items. Also, he's Persisting Mass Lesser Vigor on the whole party, so out-of-combat healing is not an issue. He doesn't need stat-boosting items, because his buffs do the job slightly better.

It's hitting the low-op Wizards, especially the ones who weren't a problem anyway, who use their fewer spells known to pick "flavorful" spells instead of mechanically effective ones. Clerics don't feel it, because they don't scale off wealth anyway, and always have full access to the Cleric list, plus any domains they feel like swapping for.

Psyren
2012-08-31, 01:03 PM
We do it between sessions, generally over e-mail/facebook/Google docs. There's never any timelag due to shopping and everyone gets what they want (mostly.)

Beleriphon
2012-08-31, 03:59 PM
I wouldn't call having some sort of system to tell different magical items apart metagaming, particularly given the extent to which magical item identification is a part of the setting. Added to that, this seems like one stupid merchant - of all the things to try and sell fraudulently, and of all the people to try and sell things fraudulently to they sell dangerous weapons to unknowns in a job that absolutely requires being willing and able to kill.

I agree with Knaight. If you remember what happens to Jack Black in The Jackal you can see what happens to the poor schlub merchant that sells bogus magic items to adventurers.

wumpus
2012-09-01, 08:06 AM
Play a game where you can't really "buy" items, at least not anything of importance. Be it Exalted, Spirit of the Century, Mutants and Masterminds... actually, even Earthdawn or Warhammer Fantasy counts here.

So this seems to be a DnD-only issue.

D&D >=3.0 I know the AD&D (1e) DMG had plenty to say about restricting player access to ordinary items, and made it clear in no uncertain terms that players couldn't expect to buy magic items anywhere. If 5e wants to incorporate old-school, the unlimited magic mart can't always be assumed.

The whole idea of an unlimited magic mart (if only for all items > population's magic number) seemed ripe for trippyverse satire. One solution would to come up with x gp "worth" of treasure appropriate for that type of population (rolling + chosen items), and then giving the players the menu of options.

Another is to allow the "full blown magic mart". Readers of the late, great, Robert Asprin would have some ideas of the adventures to be found at the bazaar at Deva (for others, think of Sigil inhabited by the most ruthless merchants you ever heard of).

holywhippet
2012-09-04, 07:23 PM
You could make it so the magic stores have a few magical items always in stock (healing potions for example), a random assortment of items they happen to have in stock and anything else needs to be ordered in advance. If the players aren't sure what to buy you can give them tips.

If the players aren't sure what they want at the shop they could arrange to send a message to the shop keeper.

Also, I seem to recall one game (it might have been in a Neverwinter Nights game) that the player would obtain an item which linked them to a planes travelling merchant. If they obtained an item like that they could obtain magical items without having to travel back to town so they could take their time about deciding.

Slipperychicken
2012-09-04, 07:38 PM
Also, I seem to recall one game (it might have been in a Neverwinter Nights game) that the player would obtain an item which linked them to a planes travelling merchant. If they obtained an item like that they could obtain magical items without having to travel back to town so they could take their time about deciding.

If they know Plane Shift, they can go to one of those "super marketplace" planes (I think Sigil is it) and probably get what they want without much hassle. Either that or Teleport to the biggest trading-hub in the campaign setting, and buy it there.

holywhippet
2012-09-04, 08:50 PM
If they know Plane Shift, they can go to one of those "super marketplace" planes (I think Sigil is it) and probably get what they want without much hassle. Either that or Teleport to the biggest trading-hub in the campaign setting, and buy it there.

You can't get to Sigil via a plane shift spell. You need to access a portal which leads there. It could be an issue for some DMs to allow access to a place like Sigil which is outside of their campaign world.

Jeff the Green
2012-09-08, 04:24 AM
If you want the magic mart effects without the magic mart fluff, take a look at the Dungeoneer's Book of Incantations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254498). It allows magic items to be a bit more special without shafting gear-dependent classes.

/shameless plug

I mostly play PBP, so it's less of an issue, but I really like doing shopping by email/chat/forum between sessions. I like having some control over the items I own, and doing it during play takes time from, well, play.

tyckspoon
2012-09-08, 05:33 PM
You can't get to Sigil via a plane shift spell. You need to access a portal which leads there. It could be an issue for some DMs to allow access to a place like Sigil which is outside of their campaign world.

If Sigil exists in your cosmology, it's not all that hard to find a portal to it; that's rather the whole point of Sigil (that and I'm pretty sure you can still Plane Shift to Sigil's plane and then just *walk* to Sigil proper if you have to.) If you don't use Sigil, the City of Brass (hometown of Efreeti, IIRC) on the Plane of Fire is the other major planar metropolis, although it's a rather less welcoming environment than Sigil.

Shpadoinkle
2012-09-08, 11:18 PM
I don't know if this is going to be helpful, but it's generally how I handle this kind of thing.

For whatever reason, I have a good memory for thoroughly useless information. I can describe most of the spells in the PHB and magic items from the DMG from memory, in a general sense at the very least. If a player wants to be able to fly, I can tell them right off the top of my head, "Okay, your options are pretty much a ring of flying, flying carpet, boots of levitation, cloak of the bat, a flying mount, etc." and describe generally what they do.

If I can't remember something that fits the bill right off the bat, I ask them to describe in a little more detail what they want, and if that doesn't jog my memory I look up the magic item creation guidelines, and quote them a rough price and creation time if nobody has something like that in stock.

Erik Vale
2012-09-08, 11:37 PM
If Sigil exists in your cosmology, it's not all that hard to find a portal to it; that's rather the whole point of Sigil (that and I'm pretty sure you can still Plane Shift to Sigil's plane and then just *walk* to Sigil proper if you have to.) If you don't use Sigil, the City of Brass (hometown of Efreeti, IIRC) on the Plane of Fire is the other major planar metropolis, although it's a rather less welcoming environment than Sigil.

Points are bolded.

1) If you want to piss of the lady of pain, who kills gods with ease.
2) Really, do you really think Sigil is friendly to Primes/Berks/(Other word I can't remember) is nicer than the City of Brass, a plane that kills you if you so much as speak to the wrong person?
Ok, I don't actually know the City of Brass off the top of my head, but that city must be absolutely horrid, and at that point I don't think it matters which is worse.

Deophaun
2012-09-09, 12:08 AM
[Holds up +1 Sword]

"Here you go! One plainly magically enhanced sword, and at a real bargain: I'm offering it to you at only 8,015 gold!"

[Since you will never cast Identify on this sword, you will never know, nor would the merchant, and take the deal grinning like an idiot]
You wouldn't need to cast identify to tell the difference. Simply wielding the weapon should be enough for any experienced swordsman to recognize the 5% difference.

-Lord Marshal: "What do you think of the blade?"
-Riddick: "I think it's a half gram heavy on the back end."

In fact, that's probably the most immersive way to think about it. No PC/NPC in the game would actually know what a "+2 sword" was, as they would have no idea what the "+2" actually added to. Performance, how it feels in the hand and how it seems to guide the wielder's swing, that would be what the characters would buy and be willing to shell out lots of cash for. That would be what your seller would demonstrate by one means or another. A plus, however, is meaningless.

Mikeavelli
2012-09-09, 12:30 AM
Points are bolded.

1) If you want to piss of the lady of pain, who kills gods with ease.
2) Really, do you really think Sigil is friendly to Primes/Berks/(Other word I can't remember) is nicer than the City of Brass, a plane that kills you if you so much as speak to the wrong person?
Ok, I don't actually know the City of Brass off the top of my head, but that city must be absolutely horrid, and at that point I don't think it matters which is worse.

The City of Brass is on a plane that is made of fire. Sigil is specifically designed by the writers of planescape to be a metropolis where low-level characters can realistically interact in what is normally a very high-level setting.

But yeah, lorewise you can't just plane shift to Sigil. It's not on a plane in the conventional sense, it is the location. It's on the inside-side of the torus on top of the infinitely-tall Spire in the Outlands, which is why it's nicknamed the Cage. What you can do is find a portal leading straight to Sigil all over the sodding place, because that's how it got its other nickname, the City of Doors.

In any event, I just made an equivalent metropolis on the Plane of Air ruled by Djinnis (The City of Glass). The Dao have one too, as do the Marids, but for some reason my players like the Air one better.

Shpadoinkle
2012-09-09, 02:58 AM
-Lord Marshal: "What do you think of the blade?"
-Riddick: "I think it's a half gram heavy on the back end."

In fact, that's probably the most immersive way to think about it. No PC/NPC in the game would actually know what a "+2 sword" was, as they would have no idea what the "+2" actually added to.

This is an excellent point, but I'm sure the wizards and clerics making these things would have some kind of terminology (hopefully standardized) to quantify this kind of thing. There would be... "checkpoints," for lack of a better term- they'd know when they were done making it +2 and that if they were to continue working on it, they'd eventually reach +3. So, while they might not use the actual term "plus X," they SHOULD have names for these points- "Second circle" or something like that. I kind of suck at coming up with names so I'm sure someone else could come up with something better.

holywhippet
2012-09-09, 05:29 PM
You wouldn't need to cast identify to tell the difference. Simply wielding the weapon should be enough for any experienced swordsman to recognize the 5% difference.

-Lord Marshal: "What do you think of the blade?"
-Riddick: "I think it's a half gram heavy on the back end."

In fact, that's probably the most immersive way to think about it. No PC/NPC in the game would actually know what a "+2 sword" was, as they would have no idea what the "+2" actually added to. Performance, how it feels in the hand and how it seems to guide the wielder's swing, that would be what the characters would buy and be willing to shell out lots of cash for. That would be what your seller would demonstrate by one means or another. A plus, however, is meaningless.

I'd think it would be more of a case of hitting something, like a piece of wood, with the sword to see how well it cuts. Weight wouldn't be good indicator since you could make a sword out of lighter metals - which would make it easier to wield but do less damage since it would have less momentum when it hits.

On Sigil and low level characters. My impression is that the Lady of Pain is the final word on keeping order in Sigil. If she decides you have gotten out of hand then she will deal with you either by mazing you or just straight wiping you out. Since nobody stands a chance in hell against her, everyone toes the line - more or less. Even demons and devils, despite being mortal enemies, don't start trouble in Sigil.

There are other groups in Sigil who try to maintain law and order I believe.

Knaight
2012-09-09, 08:44 PM
I'd think it would be more of a case of hitting something, like a piece of wood, with the sword to see how well it cuts. Weight wouldn't be good indicator since you could make a sword out of lighter metals - which would make it easier to wield but do less damage since it would have less momentum when it hits.

How well it moves in general however is a fairly good indicator - making a sword lighter while retaining the same point of balance, blade harmonics, aerodynamics, and similar things will generally cause it to feel extremely odd in the hand, unless it was simply too heavy before and it is made lighter to exactly the right degree. Attack bonus makes a lot of sense connected to general handling of the weapon, and you can get some idea of that just going through the motions you frequently use. D&D imposes some level of quantization on a continuum in this regard, but that just means that the model isn't infinitely precise, which we already knew.

TheThan
2012-09-09, 09:22 PM
I think the best idea is to actually drop the concept of “magic shopping” and the “magic shop/mall” altogether. Just give them items throughout the course of their adventures. Make every magical item unique and interesting, instead of the paladin finding “a holy avenger” he finds “THE HOLY AVENGER” an mystical item belonging to sir Sigrid the immortal, a paladin from long ago that lost his life to a red dragon.

Maybe that bag of tricks once belonged to a high level ranger, and he counted the animals within as his animal companions.

Keep in mind you don’t have to give them exactly what they want every time. Borrow a page from ROY, and let them improvise with the tools you provide for them.

Seerow
2012-09-09, 09:31 PM
I agree with just providing a limited list of options available in the town. If one of the players has a special request and really wants something, you may decide to change that availability, or let them commission the item, but if the players are just browsing for something to cash in their gold on without having any idea what they want, the biggest issue is probably option paralysis. Restricting the options to a more manageable number lets the players quickly choose what, if anything, they want to buy, and get on with things from there.

Togo
2012-09-12, 08:00 AM
Cut out shopping altogether. If you're not enjoying it, don't have it in your game.

Trebloc
2012-09-12, 10:45 AM
For my group, we do shopping on our forums. That way, the DM can roll during the week if items are found. This allows the DM to add whatever modifiers they want based on the PC's skills and what size of city they're in...etc.

The DM coming up with a predefined list of stuff for sale in a city is nice, but doesn't work with my group. They generally have a good idea of what kind of gear they're after, and the DM taking the time to list up a bunch of other items they're not interested in is just wasted time for the DM.

Templarkommando
2012-09-12, 11:55 AM
I would say to be very careful about limiting available items. If you place limitations on items it should likely be a gp value appropriate for the city's size. (You can't just walk into any general store and purchase twelve of their +7 Keen Vorpal Longswords.) A huge city might have a limit of 20,000 gp items, while a small hamlet might have a gp limit of 200.

My 2nd ed DM talks about how in that edition there aren't even really supposed to be magic shops, and that seems kind of odd to me. If I can't spend my ill-gotten lucre on equipment for my upcoming adventures, my RPG play-style quickly descends into the fantasy equivalent of Farmville. It just seems ridiculous for a character to get this "reward" of ten thousand gold pieces and then have nothing to spend it on. Suddenly the game is less like D&D and more like Whose Line is it Anyway?

My suggestion is to try to coax your players into making their equipment purchases away from the gaming table. Catch them on Facebook and ask them if their character wants to buy anything before the upcoming session. If they do, have them find what they want in the DMG, agree on a price and go from there.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-09-12, 02:14 PM
This has probably been mentioned, but here's my idea. I find this is the most realistic way to do this.

Introduce an NPC who is a magic item broker. Somebody who doesn't carry much gear himself, but he knows a lot of people who craft items and also helps people who are trying to sell things. He has very good appraisal skills, and either knows enough magic to detect or uses magic items for that purpose. His full-time job is to find people who are buying rare items and selling rare items and moving money and objects between them.

He also facilitates and safeguards transactions by hiring trustworthy bodyguards to be present when items are exchanged. His pay comes out of the purchase (that's where the 50% market price comes from and he'll show you a list of expenses if you protest), but if the PCs do him some favors or work as bodyguards for him he'll give them a discount. He could also hire the PCs to track down thieves or people selling fake or flawed magic items, mainly to protect his own reputation. Also, because he deals with such expensive goods, he may also dabble in loans and insurance.

However, there is one downside to working through him. You can't get what you want the same day unless someone happens to be selling it. You can't sell an item to him, he can only try to find you a buyer. For security reasons he refuses to keep any stock of magic items, he only moves them from seller to buyer. If nobody is selling what you're looking for he can commission one of his contacts to craft it for you, but you'll have to pay in advance and wait till it's finished.

Slipperychicken
2012-09-12, 02:33 PM
I would say to be very careful about limiting available items. If you place limitations on items it should likely be a gp value appropriate for the city's size. (You can't just walk into any general store and purchase twelve of their +7 Keen Vorpal Longswords.) A huge city might have a limit of 20,000 gp items, while a small hamlet might have a gp limit of 200.


That's already in dnd 3.5, at least. Pretty sure it's DMG. A lot of these kinds of problems can be solved by actually reading the rules, rather than skimming a sentence or two, and shouting about how OMG RIIIIIGGED!!!11!!!!11!!oneone your Psion is because he can totally augment a power with 7 pp at level 1 (he can't).

DigoDragon
2012-09-13, 08:08 AM
Most of my players make shopping lists in between sessions and then come next game we go over them and see what can be feasably found in the current town they are in (I use the GP limits).
I also make general lists of what kind of magic items would be resonably available in each town so that we can quickly run through the list and note what will not be found in a village versus a capitol city.

Cities that are at war may have a run on weapons because the government bought them all for their soldiers, so the PCs will have to think about location too.

Sudain
2012-09-14, 10:16 AM
I'd do a couple things. Have a limited amount of magical items on hand in any particular town. If they don't have what the players want; tough.

If the players still want something, then have them commission the item from some mage or other respectable entity. Or have them embark on a quest for it.

You might also consider giving them super strong items for their WBL. If they should have 20k WBL, consider giving them a ~40k WBL. If they don't like it then they can try selling it for 20k. If they keep it; then they now have 40k WBL and so will have to wait longer for the next item. If they sell it they arn't 'shafted' on gold(though they may think so). This also helps keep magic items to a minimum(though each item is more powerful) in general.