Spell Memorization question

[Vortenger]

I've been going over the spell memorization rules and have come across an impasse. Perhaps you guys can fill me in better as I'm sure the answer was in there, I just didn't see it.

How/when are bonus spells granted by prime ability score checked? (as a corollary how are number of turning attempts based on cha checked?)

Is the value checked at some magical part of the day? Can temporary buffs be used to beef up your prime stats just before the 'check' happens? Or is it based on the static values of your abilities during both rest and memorization?

This question came up as I was mulling over Owl's Insight (SpC). I was wondering if an extended owl's wisdom (to have more than enough time for prayer) would allow my druid to gain bonus spells per his now inflated wisdom.

*(example- assuming a base CL of 10 and an Ankh of Ascension for +4; Owl's Insight grants 1/2 CL as an insight bonus, which gives us a +7 wisdom and a +3 mod upgrade on spells per day. At lvl 20 a +14 wisdom bonus for a +7 mod increase is easy, and a +7 mod increase for bonus spells is damn sexy and gets you back way more than the 6th lvl slot it cost.)

I'm curious if the cleric/prestige bard in our group might get similar mileage out of Nixie's Grace (SpC) for the purposes of gaining more turning attempts per day.

What do you think, playgrounders? does this idea have any merit?

[ericgrau]

Well it doesn't work for owl's wisdom, even temporarily:


Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers (and other Wisdom-based spellcasters) who receive owl’s wisdom do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Wisdom


So most likely you need a 24 hour effect at minimum if not permanent.

Effects that reduce ability scores tend to also reduce spells per day, so I'd say even if you did get extra you'd lose them as soon as the spell ended.

I don't see a rule on it but if you could get the bonus going for at least a few hours I think you should get extra spells until the buff runs out. The more strict interpretation would be to say permanent magic items or nothing.

[Vortenger]

Owl's wisdom and its ilk in the PHB do have that caveat, true. However, Owl's Insight (the spell in question) and other such spells in books outside of core carry no such limiting factor. Just double checked the errata to be sure.

Examples: Sirine's Grace, Nixie's Grace, Owl's Insight (which gives an insight bonus and therefore stacks with my periapt of wisdom...), Divine Agility and the Bite of X (only applicable to Illumians, iirc.) There may be others, but thats what SpC gives, anyhoo.

"So most likely...", "...so I'd say...", "I don't see a rule on it but..."

So, you got nothing too, huh? I want to seek out an official answer if at all possible.

[ericgrau]

Ok then:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19536254/stat_boosters_and_bonus_spells

Seems like you get the bonus spells until the bonus ability runs out. You must have the bonus while preparing spells as well.

[Vortenger]

Eureka! That's almost exactly what I was looking for, though there is still no specific rules quotes that lend themselves one way or another.

It would seem that these folks are in favor of this idea after some deliberation, and even use the same idea as an example, but I fail to see any concrete resolution here, unless that Groveborn guys is someone special I'm not aware of. (It seems he may be) They use the same logic I had, but don't really resolve how the ability mod check (how and when) happens.

So it seems that common consensus is that abilty mod checks (for spells per day, turning, what-have-you) happen one time a day whenever you decide it's most advantageous (within RAW for your class) and that spells that do not specifically prevent bonus spells do indeed grant them. This seems reasonable, but open to exploitation. There is also a possibility that when your prime stat goes back to its base value that all spells gained from the temporary bump ebb away as well (though this seems to have no written back-up that I can see).

Thanks for the link! (Unless that Groveborn guy is the Great Decider,) I'd still like to come to the table with in-book references concerning this ambiguity, though.

[ericgrau]

The sage (authors of the player's handbook and answerers of FAQ) and the player's handbook are, however, pretty official. They reference both in the link. So that leaves either it only works for permanent magic, or it works until your buff runs out. The link is just more forums.

I'm too lazy to get my PH out of my car right now but check the page he referenced.

[Downysole]

The sage (authors of the player's handbook and answerers of FAQ) and the player's handbook are, however, pretty official. They reference both in the link. So that leaves either it only works for permanent magic, or it works until your buff runs out. The link is just more forums.

I'm too lazy to get my PH out of my car right now but check the page he referenced.

Under Arcane Spell Preparation, it indicates that you don't have to choose to prepare all your spells at once. Therefore, if you add more slots that you have to prepare to, you would use these rules, having to spend at least 15 minutes (more if you do more than 1/4 of your spells) in a quiet space, just like when prepping your normal allotment.

Hope this helps.

[Vortenger]

@ericgrau - really the solution the link ends at is probably the best and most logical. It breaks no game rules, certainly. Trick is, I need to bring cited sources to the table for players and DM alike, both for and against. (Our resident rules lawyer is a real lawyer, so being exact has become almost mandatory.)

I must say, however that within the link, I don't see the page references in the PHB mentioned anywhere, and the Sage was merely referenced without citation. I searched for Skip's supposedly argument settling email to no avail. Groveborn's extrapolation that if con goes up and then down so too does HP, therefore spell slots must work the same way is logical, but what substantiates it? (I loved the part where he said, "The rules are clear on this subject...". They are? Then why are there two threads with no page references...?) Sorry, my friend, but while it contained good info, that thread contained nothing official at all.

A quick scan in the FAQ and the Rules Compendium shed no further light, either.

No matter what, it is cool to know as a druid you can spend a 6th level spell slot to gain a number of freebie bonus spells with which to cast your all day buffs. Not game breaking any more than being a druid already is, but more awesome is more awesome.

[ericgrau]

Page 8 of the PHB unless he lied. Sorry, still AFB.

[Vortenger]

My apologies, I hadn't noticed that in their writing, and the thing I needed was on p. 10, which shows the final resting point in the other thread to be irrefutable. Thanks again, it was exactly what I needed! :smallbiggrin: