Multiple Natural Attacks, can someone clarify?

[LanSlyde]

So, hypothetically speaking, we have a griffon (1 bite, 2claws + pounce + rake attack). Lets say that griffon has a BAB of 16(giving him 3 attacks), how would that work on a full attack? 3 bites and 6 claws?

Also, our group is taking a break from the campaign involving the War Troll BBEG with the STR of 92 and his War-Tarrasque. Is anyone interested in the campaign journal? Some of you might remember me mentioning him in previous threads. I'll post it in an alternate thread for those interested.

[theUnearther]

As far as I remember, no, natural attacks override high Base Attack iteratives. You can give up some or all of your naturals to make iterative attacks, which because of the decreasing attack bonus would not be worth it, unless maybe you have a good weapon you want to make use of?

Also, look for an user here by the name of UrPriest. His signature links to his guide on monsters, which covers this. It's very good, I basically wrote from my memory of it.

[TuggyNE]

So, hypothetically speaking, we have a griffon (1 bite, 2claws + pounce + rake attack). Lets say that griffon has a BAB of 16(giving him 3 attacks), how would that work on a full attack? 3 bites and 6 claws?

No. Multiple natural attacks never increase from high BAB, and high BAB-derived attacks (iteratives) do not interfere with natural attacks either. Instead, any iteratives you gain from BAB are made with manufactured weapons (including, for this purpose, unarmed strikes from Monks and similar), and you also make all natural attacks at a flat penalty (usually -5, unless you have Multiattack or something). A griffon can't generally wield manufactured weapons, though, so it attacks once with it's primary natural attack at full BAB, and then with its other natural weapons at a penalty (in this case, -2, because it has Multiattack). Note that, unlike iteratives, natural weapon attack penalties don't accumulate; all secondary attacks are made at the same penalty.

[S_Grey]

Show me this Troll.

[Derjuin]

Natural attacks don't get iteratives, so on a full attack it'd get 1 bite and 2 claws. With the feats Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, it can gain iteratives for any pair of natural weapons it has ("2 claws", "2 wings" etc), though. Both feats can be found in the Draconomicon.

[killianh]

That said if you had polymorphed into something like a hydra and had 16 BAB (4 attacks) AND you had mouthpicks (a sword type for creatures to wield in their mouths from LoM) for each head you could attack with each head on each iterative. So having an BAB of 16 and polymorphing into a 12 headed hydra with 12 mouthpicks would allow for 48 attacks. This of course assumes your BAB is from a source that allows iterative attacks i.e. fighter

in your example though you would not gain additional attacks for a high BAB, you would follow the standard rules for natural creature attacks.

[Axel_Neco]

Natural attacks only follow your BAB for the first attack, which is the primary natural weapon (the bite in this case), and it does its die damage + str (unless something in the creature description says otherwise). This attack goes on the 16 + str. The claws are consider secondary weapons, and go on the highest bab modifier -5 and do die damage + half str. So in this case, 16 + str - 5. This applies to both claws.

So breaking that down:
Full round attack going bite, claw, and claw.
16 + str (this is the bite)
16 + str -5 (this is the first claw)
16 + str -5 (this is the second claw)

Rake is a special attack that only applies if the creature is in a grapple. When grappling, the griffin has 2 extra claw attacks, on top of the single attack allowed when grappled with natural weapons.

Pounce is a special ability that allows a full round attack at the end of a charge, instead of the single attack. The griffin states that it is allowed to rake at the end of the pounce, so breaking it down:

16 + str +2 (charge) (this is the bite)
16 + str -5 + 2 (charge) (this is the first claw)
16 + str -5 +2 (charge) (this is the second claw)
16 + str -5 + 2 (charge) (this is the first rake)
16 + str -5 +2 (charge) (this is the second rake)

This is all without using feats such as Multiattack. Multiattack reduces the penalty for using multiple natural attacks in a round from -5 to -2. So here's the break down again for pouncing:

16 + str +2 (charge) (this is the bite)
16 + str -2 + 2 (charge) (this is the first claw)
16 + str -2 +2 (charge) (this is the second claw)
16 + str -2 + 2 (charge) (this is the first rake)
16 + str -2 +2 (charge) (this is the second rake)

Apply other modifiers as needed. Moral of the story: Having iterative attacks from BAB does not apply to natural weapons.

Here's a link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) to a guide about it for more information.

[LanSlyde]

Show me this Troll.

I am sworn to secrecy regarding his creation, but I assure you he is legitimately built quiteand unkillable in the traditional sense.

To everyone else, thank you for the clarification. :smallbiggrin:

[kardar233]

Any unkillable War Troll effort eventually ends up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587).

[Urpriest]

That said if you had polymorphed into something like a hydra and had 16 BAB (4 attacks) AND you had mouthpicks (a sword type for creatures to wield in their mouths from LoM) for each head you could attack with each head on each iterative. So having an BAB of 16 and polymorphing into a 12 headed hydra with 12 mouthpicks would allow for 48 attacks. This of course assumes your BAB is from a source that allows iterative attacks i.e. fighter

in your example though you would not gain additional attacks for a high BAB, you would follow the standard rules for natural creature attacks.

Not quite. Mouthpick works just like other iterative attacks, which means that by default you only get one set, or two with Two-Weapon Fighting. You could gain more with Multiweapon Fighting, but that is limited by arms, not heads, even if the attacks are made with Mouthpick weapons. Compare armor spikes and boot blades, which don't give you extra attacks despite not being wielded in your hands. Furthermore, even for multiarmed forms, Polymorph (via Alter Self) explicitly does not grant the ability to use Multiweapon Fighting.

[Gandariel]

Side question:
I have a race with natural attacks, and i wield a weapon. I have bab 6
So i make 2 attacks + my naturals.

Now if i'm a monk/barbarian and i take a level in Bear Warrior...
do i make my iteratives + bite/claw/claw while in bear form?
or just bite/claw/claw?

[Darrin]

Side question:
I have a race with natural attacks, and i wield a weapon. I have bab 6
So i make 2 attacks + my naturals.


Yes. Two iteratives, then all your natural attacks (that aren't otherwise occupied) as secondary attacks. If you have a sword with bite/claw/claw, then (assuming one claw is holding the sword) you'd get:

+0 sword/-5 sword/-5 bite/-5 claw



Now if i'm a monk/barbarian and i take a level in Bear Warrior...
do i make my iteratives + bite/claw/claw while in bear form?
or just bite/claw/claw?

Unarmed strikes are treated as iterative attacks. Since they don't directly involve your bite or claws, you can get your full iterative attacks + all your secondary natural attacks. If your BAB is +6:

+0 unarmed strike/-5 unarmed strike/-5 bite/-5 claw/-5 claw

[Aliek]

Side question:
I have a race with natural attacks, and i wield a weapon. I have bab 6
So i make 2 attacks + my naturals.

Now if i'm a monk/barbarian and i take a level in Bear Warrior...
do i make my iteratives + bite/claw/claw while in bear form?
or just bite/claw/claw?

Well, the first option, as already said. But it's worth noting you can't really be a monk/barbarian due to alignment restrictions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it a Monk's Belt, now it can make unarmed strikes that benefit from iterative attacks, plus one secondary attack per natural weapon.

[Gandariel]

Ex-monk/ barbarian, is it better? :P

i was thinking about some monk/barbarian unarmed fighter, with 5 levels in Frostrager, 6 in Bear warrior, and some Fist of the forest too.

this would get 4(bab)+1(snap kick)+3(bear)+2(frostrager)+1(haste?) 10-11 attacks.
Nothing says you're screwed like a frozen kung-fu bear!

[Darrin]

Nothing says you're screwed like a frozen kung-fu bear!

Obligatory Link: Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588)

If that's not Chuck Norris enough for you... add Firestorm Berzerker (Dragon #314). Frozen Dwarf *On Fire*.

[Keld Denar]

Drop the monk altogether. Go into Fist if the Forest as a Barb 4, which takes you straight into Bear Warrior. Unarmed Strikes from FotF alone are as good as they would be with a monk dip (d10s, iirc). If you can, 2 levels of Deepwarden give you double Con to AC, which means your AC actually goes up when you bear rage.

[Gandariel]

Huh, so no monk? I really liked that dip (monk 2 gives a LOT of stuff)
but ok, i'll remove it.

i'm afb now, and i don't remember PrCs' requirements, but the build would look like:

barb 4 / Fotf 1 / Deepwarden 2/ Frostrager 5/ bear warrior 6/ ???? 2

(yeah, the first half is the same as that link :P )

[Keld Denar]

That should work, but I dunno if you will be able to hit the skill prereqs on Deepwarden by ECL 5 without a decent Int score. I'd look into that, they are pretty extensive.

[KillianHawkeye]

Natural attacks don't get iteratives, so on a full attack it'd get 1 bite and 2 claws. With the feats Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, it can gain iteratives for any pair of natural weapons it has ("2 claws", "2 wings" etc), though. Both feats can be found in the Draconomicon.

I don't think a griffon qualifies for Rapidstrike, though.

[TypoNinja]

I don't think a griffon qualifies for Rapidstrike, though.

Anything with pairs of weapons(and the right creature types) qualifies, so two claws works.

Question though, to make sure I've got this right, if I had a creature with natural attack routines, and unarmed strikes from a monk level, how does that work? Lets say its a were tiger who pounces;

bite
2 claw
2 rake
monk unarmed

He'd do iteratives then the naturals at -5? Do the Iteratives have to be the primary? What stops me from using them as the secondaries and keeping natural attacks as the primary option?

How does the addition of iteratives interact with multi-attack and improved multi-attack?

[Darrin]

Question though, to make sure I've got this right, if I had a creature with natural attack routines, and unarmed strikes from a monk level, how does that work? Lets say its a were tiger who pounces;

bite
2 claw
2 rake
monk unarmed

He'd do iteratives then the naturals at -5? Do the Iteratives have to be the primary? What stops me from using them as the secondaries and keeping natural attacks as the primary option?


The rules for mixing manufactured and natural weapons specify that the manufactured weapon (which, for a monk, would be his unarmed strike) becomes the primary, and any other natural attacks become secondary. Manufactured weapons can never be "secondary" attacks, they are either primary or off-hand attacks.

However, a monk's unarmed strike counts as both a manufactured and natural weapon, and there's no rule that says you can't pick another natural weapon to be the primary. So you could choose to have your bite be primary, and the rest of your natural attacks (which would include a single unarmed strike) would all be secondary. However, you still have to follow the rules for natural weapons, which state that they can only attack once per round, so you only get one bite attack, and you get no additional iterative attacks that round. Your attack progression would look like:

+0 bite/-5 claw/-5 claw/-5 unarmed strike

(rake... I'm not entirely sure how that works, because there are two different types of rake, and one of them triggers after a Pounce attack, and the other can only be used in a grapple, and if you're grappling then you're not pouncing and you don't get your normal full-attack progression, although you do get iteratives... it's... well, it's sort of a mess.)



How does the addition of iteratives interact with multi-attack and improved multi-attack?

Multi-Attack and Improved Multi-Attack have no affect at all on your iterative attacks. Multi-Attack reduces the penalty on your secondary natural attacks to -2, and Improved Multi-Attack reduces the penalty to zero.

[KillianHawkeye]

Anything with pairs of weapons(and the right creature types) qualifies, so two claws works.

Yes, it has a pair of natural weapons (claws). And magical beast actually is one of the types which can take Rapidstrike. But it still doesn't meet the BAB requirement (unless you advance it to 10 HD, at which point it could take Rapidstrike with its 12th level feat).

[TypoNinja]

Multi-Attack and Improved Multi-Attack have no affect at all on your iterative attacks. Multi-Attack reduces the penalty on your secondary natural attacks to -2, and Improved Multi-Attack reduces the penalty to zero.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant how would multi-attack interact with the penalties for mixing in a manufactured/unarmed attack.

Specfically, multiattack states that
The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty.

Does this mean that if I use my unarmed as primary, I don't suffer the -5 for mixing as usual?

This would be the normal rotation and penalties;

Unarmed +0
Natural - 5
Natural Secondaries - 10

With multi attack however it would be;

Unarmed +0
All naturals are now Secondaries - 2

Am I missing something or does multiattack just kind of makes the penalty for mixing attacks go away since all my natural attacks are secondaries when subordinate to a manufactured/unarmed.

[TuggyNE]

This would be the normal rotation and penalties;

Unarmed +0
Natural - 5
Natural Secondaries - 10

That's actually incorrect; it looks more like this, I believe:

Unarmed +0
Natural Primary -5 (operating as a secondary)
Natural Secondaries -5

No further penalties are added.

[KillianHawkeye]

That's actually incorrect; it looks more like this, I believe:

Unarmed +0
Natural Primary -5 (operating as a secondary)
Natural Secondaries -5

No further penalties are added.

This is correct. If you are using a manufactured weapon (or an unarmed strike) in addition to your natural weapons, you take the regular weapon attacks as normal and all the natural weapon attacks as secondary.

[Darrin]

Does this mean that if I use my unarmed as primary, I don't suffer the -5 for mixing as usual?

This would be the normal rotation and penalties;
Unarmed +0
Natural - 5
Natural Secondaries - 10


There is no -5 penalty for mixing manufactured and natural weapons. When attacking with a manufactured weapon, all your natural weapons (including your primary) become secondary attacks. Secondary attacks get a -5 penalty and 1/2 Str bonus. In general, unless a penalty specifies "all attacks", the penalties on your iterative attacks and the penalties on your natural weapons don't affect each other.



With multi attack however it would be;

Unarmed +0
All naturals are now Secondaries - 2


This is correct.

Multi-Attack and Improved Multi-Attack only affect the penalties on your secondary natural weapons. They have no effect on your iterative attacks.



Am I missing something or does multiattack just kind of makes the penalty for mixing attacks go away since all my natural attacks are secondaries when subordinate to a manufactured/unarmed.

The only part you're missing is there is no separate penalty for mixing manufactured and natural attacks together.

[TypoNinja]

There is no -5 penalty for mixing manufactured and natural weapons. When attacking with a manufactured weapon, all your natural weapons (including your primary) become secondary attacks. Secondary attacks get a -5 penalty and 1/2 Str bonus. In general, unless a penalty specifies "all attacks", the penalties on your iterative attacks and the penalties on your natural weapons don't affect each other.



This is correct.

Multi-Attack and Improved Multi-Attack only affect the penalties on your secondary natural weapons. They have no effect on your iterative attacks.



The only part you're missing is there is no separate penalty for mixing manufactured and natural attacks together.

Yea I somehow managed to make the leap that if manufactured to natural was a -5 I'd still keep the - 5 from multiple natural attacks instead of clueing in that it just made ALL naturals secondaries even though I'd realized the implications for multi-attack.

That's fairly cool then I had thought my were-tigers offensive output was approaching maximum when I maxed out his str, but adding monk -> fist of the forest -> tattoed monk should be fairly effective.