Is this class too weak?(pf)

[Togath]

One of my players in a pbp I'm runnign has asked if he could play a 3rd party clas: the warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/tos---warlord), the main worry I have seeing that is that it looks like it could be a little bit too weak(the party is two warblades, a twf fighter, a swordsage, a bard, and an adept class i altered to have casting equal to a magus, but with acess to healign spells and all evocation spells)
Should i suggest soemthign else to him, or do you think he'll be decent as one?

[LanSlyde]

On the contrary. Full BAB, 2 good saves, and good party support make this class rather effective for the party in question. Of course, without seeing as how the other other members are built I can't be certain. But from what I have read of the class it seems it will be fine.

EDIT: Also comes with a d10 hit die and no dead levels. Why in the world did you think this class would be weak?:smallconfused:

[Togath]

mostly because it got static bonuses, though if it's decent I'll ok it for him.

[Answerer]

Eh, chassis doesn't count for much.

Combat Leader and Commanding Presence make this a worthwhile dip, since those are automatic.

Inspiration is adding less than a single attack's worth of HP for a Standard Action. It's not awful since it does apply to everyone, but it's not really that good. At a lower action cost and useable more per day, it'd be great.

The rest of the class features are pretty meh. There are a few decent feats in the bonus feat list, but eh.

A one-level dip for Combat Leader and Commanding Presence is quite solid. I can see as many as three levels, since the Bonus Feat isn't bad, Hold the Line is OK, and maybe you'll use Inspiration. Plus, as noted, the chassis is pretty solid. But I think those two levels are hard to justify and any more is almost impossible.

Of note, Warlord 3/Bard 1/Crusader-or-Warblade X with Song of the White Raven is quite solid here. You could probably find better things to do with those two Warlord levels, but they're not wasted, and your character will be an awesome battle leader, which is probably what the player is going for.

[ericgrau]

It's a full BAB bard that gets free action boosts right at level 1 but no spellcasting. Combat leader, commanding presence, inspiration are way over the top. After that there are some bonus feats and a load of suck, but those first 3 abilities scale well so the later suck doesn't matter so much.

With even 1 martial ally it seems like a bit too much and he has 3. They are all going to hit really hard. The warlord himself has less feats than a real fighter but he gets plenty of attack bonus and temp HP to make up for other fighter bonuses, and then some. Just for himself, not counting the boosts to allies.

So numerically I'd say it's overpowered and yet it might struggle on unusual encounters. That polarizes it a bit which I think is bad form for a class. He's going to make your party into indestructible damage cannons and yet won't add any other utility.

Remember that these bonuses affect the whole party and some don't take an action. That's what makes the big difference vs. blowing an action to buff only 1 guy. 1d6 per 2 levels is meh. 1d6 x 7 per 2 levels is huge. Even heal does only half that much. +1 or +2 is meh, +1 or +2 as an action is a waste of time. +1 or +2 to 4 people without any action is huge.

[Answerer]

It's a full BAB bard that gets free action boosts right at level 1 but no spellcasting. Combat leader, commanding presence, inspiration are way over the top. After that there are some bonus feats and a load of suck, but those first 3 abilities scale well so the later suck doesn't matter so much.
I think you're missing the Standard Action on Inspiration...

[ericgrau]

Some are free action some aren't. It doesn't matter, inspiriation is still twice as good as heal for a big party (and unlike channel energy it helps people with full health). That's over the top.

In other words it might be as interesting and versatile as swinging a stick, but the pile of numbers is way too big. Poor class design.

I can understand a buffer being good in a big party but maybe if it wasn't so good even by himself and maybe if the bonuses were morale bonuses to prevent double buff stacking. But then the party couldn't have both a bard and a warlord, and they already have a bard.

[Novawurmson]

I'd say let him take 2 or 4 levels of it and then go into Crusader.

[docnessuno]

The class is quite on the low-end, i'd say high Tier 5, maybe low Tier 4.
Allowing a homebrew feat to use inspiration as a swift action (paladins got battle blessing after all) would boost it into a solid Tier 4. Not on par with the ToB classes but not too outshined.

[Answerer]

Some are free action some aren't. It doesn't matter, inspiriation is still twice as good as heal for a big party (and unlike channel energy it helps people with full health). That's over the top.

In other words it might be as interesting and versatile as swinging a stick, but the pile of numbers is way too big. Poor class design.

I can understand a buffer being good in a big party but maybe if it wasn't so good even by himself and maybe if the bonuses were morale bonuses to prevent double buff stacking. But then the party couldn't have both a bard and a warlord, and they already have a bard.
I think you're massively overstating the amount of Temp HP we're talking about. It's 1d6 per 2 levels, or 1.75, on average, per level. To match heal's 10 HP/level for a single target, you'd need 6 people in the party. That's a lot of people, and the overwhelming majority of the time, you really want to pour on the healing to whoever's getting focused down, not spread it around.

Inspiration is definitely good, don't get me wrong. I can definitely see it getting used. But it's not nearly as powerful as you seem to be making it out to be.

[ericgrau]

Ah I doubled it by mistake. Stupid math in head.

Class is at least as good as the PF fighter I think, though not what I thought. You lose some feats but you're just as strong in melee otherwise simply from the bonuses you grant yourself. Then you buff the party to make up for lost feats.

The initiative bonus x 7 people is pretty nice too. That right there is like giving away 1-3 feats to your allies. I mean it's 7 half feats that every class likes, but improved init isn't everyone's first choice.

[GenghisDon]

One of my players in a pbp I'm runnign has asked if he could play a 3rd party clas: the warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/tos---warlord), the main worry I have seeing that is that it looks like it could be a little bit too weak(the party is two warblades, a twf fighter, a swordsage, a bard, and an adept class i altered to have casting equal to a magus, but with acess to healign spells and all evocation spells)
Should i suggest soemthign else to him, or do you think he'll be decent as one?

It seems fine, and even fairly potent, to me. It doesn't seem like that party needs more buffs, but I imagine it would be a fairly strong force multiplier in that melee heavy group

I'd fix the cry havoc ability, making it double crit ranges or something like that; as a flat 18-20 makes no sense. a scimitar or rapier gets nothing (or maybe gets worse), while a heavy pick or scythe becomes lethal.

[Togath]

I'd say let him take 2 or 4 levels of it and then go into Crusader.

The player was plannign to probably dip bard, and/or crusader and/or warblade with it, so it sounds like he will be able to still contribute somewhat, and the camapign hasn't had that many battles yet(only one, and all but one of the npc tried to run away)

[Killer Angel]

It fits well with the group, and will contribute on par. Let your player go for it.


The player was plannign to probably dip bard, and/or crusader and/or warblade with it, so it sounds like he will be able to still contribute somewhat, and the camapign hasn't had that many battles yet(only one, and all but one of the npc tried to run away)

A probable future change of class, should further reduce your worries...

[Answerer]

The player was plannign to probably dip bard, and/or crusader and/or warblade with it, so it sounds like he will be able to still contribute somewhat, and the camapign hasn't had that many battles yet(only one, and all but one of the npc tried to run away)
Yeah, that should be fine then. You'd basically want Warlord 3/Bard 1/Crusader-or-Warblade 16.

[TopCheese]

Read the first post then just had to warn you...

Through multiclassing with bard and a couple other classes (I think witch or something) this can be a crazy !

A guy in a real life game used Warlord as a dip and it ended up being crazy, he also tacted on a PrC... Though he knew 3rd party was illegal he did it anyways -_-.

3rd party stuff can be more than meets the eye...