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karkus
2012-08-29, 11:25 PM
So I've noticed that, for whatever reason, gods associated with death are Evil, with the only exception I've found being Wee Jas. Are there any non-core deities, or even some mythological ones (such as Thanatos, Atropos, etc.) that represent the Neutral or even Good side to death?

Let's be honest. They're associated with death, not killing. Death gods don't really give two skulls about what we mortals do. They take the Bad Guys, as well as the Good Guys. That's Neutral just by itself. If anything, death is better because in D&D, we know for a fact that there is an afterlife that is better, and it even ends our suffering that we experience in life.

So I'm asking for a deity to worship as a cleric that represents a more unbiased and maybe even benevolent death. Any ideas?

Erik Vale
2012-08-29, 11:28 PM
The Dragons god of death and Kelvamor. First ones True Nuetral and Non Responsive, the other Lawful nuetral...

Wait, non core. No clue.

LibraryOgre
2012-08-29, 11:28 PM
Kelemvor is the FR god of the dead, post Time of Troubles.

Alleran
2012-08-29, 11:32 PM
Kelemvor and Wee Jas are the two big ones. I think Jergal was/is neutral.

navar100
2012-08-29, 11:48 PM
There's also Osiris. Only worshipped canon in Mulhorand, Forgotten Realms pre-4E, the Egyptian pantheon is always published in deities & demigods books. He's Lawful Good.

karkus
2012-08-29, 11:57 PM
I'm sorry, but I thought that "non-core" just referred to the 3 major rule books (PHb, DMG, MM). Am I mistaken, and they actually refer to a different campaign setting?

BootStrapTommy
2012-08-30, 12:19 AM
In the Faerun campaign setting, a number of gods and goddesses of death are neutral (because death is indiscriminate).

Kelemvor comes to mind. He rules the City of Judgement and is the straight up God of Death. He's Lawful Neutral.

And Jergal, the god of tombs and death as a fate. Also Lawful Neutral.

Neutral death gods make more sense to me, because death comes to all and does not discriminate with regards to morality.

karkus
2012-08-30, 12:32 AM
I checked out my Forgotten Realms book, and Kelemvor and/or Jergal aren't what I'm looking for. I'm primarily looking for a god of death that is also okay with animating undead. Osiris may be my only hope in this. He's among the Pharaonic Pantheon, correct?

karkus
2012-08-30, 12:45 AM
I checked it out, and Osiris is the closest thing I can find to this. There are 3-4 death-based deities in the Pharaonic pantheon, but they're all against creating undead except for Osiris. If anyone can find something better, just let me know.

Averis Vol
2012-08-30, 12:47 AM
going to second wee jas. she is the goddess of death in the fact that her mantra says she the dead should always be honored and their knowledged passed onto those of us who are still alive. if you got that, have a cookie.

Geostationary
2012-08-30, 01:04 AM
If you're fine with 4e, the Raven Queen is a neutral death goddess, and she's the default one.

Loki_42
2012-08-30, 10:09 AM
I'm sorry, but I thought that "non-core" just referred to the 3 major rule books (PHb, DMG, MM). Am I mistaken, and they actually refer to a different campaign setting?

Core refers to the 3 major rule books. Non-core would be anything that isn't them.

LibraryOgre
2012-08-30, 11:33 AM
If you're fine with 4e, the Raven Queen is a neutral death goddess, and she's the default one.

She's also anti-undead, IIRC.

The problem with what you're looking for (a non-evil, animation-friendly death deity) is that animation of the dead is generally considered an evil act... so a deity who is ok with it tends to default to evil.

So, outside of something a bit niche, you're probably looking at Osiris.

hamishspence
2012-08-30, 12:07 PM
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Evening Glory yet- TN deity from Libris Mortis- goddess of "eternal love".

GenghisDon
2012-08-30, 12:39 PM
I think the problem is you want a god of death or undeath, rather than a god of the dead. There's a distinction, and the first 2 are almost always evil or evil leaning.

Undead are by default evil in d20..even mindless ones (somehow).

Unless one plays with the rules, say, for an Eggy campaign where there are good & nuetral mummies & the like, you're kinda stuck.

You could play with the philosophy, and even look to the RW beliefs on gods, but D&D takes those & simplifies them & often makes them "evil" just to provide conflict/drama/good vs evil BS.

Siegel
2012-08-30, 01:28 PM
Poosh (like the lost moon)

God of Death and Commerce - using undead as cheap labour to produce more easily and cheaper. Easily drives other competitors out of the market.

Allways an idea i wanted to incorporate.

Thialfi
2012-08-30, 02:41 PM
Back in the days of 1e there was a copyright violating book called Deities & Demigods that included the Gods of Newhon from the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books. It's god of death was actually called Death and he was true neutral.

Telonius
2012-08-30, 02:58 PM
Urogalan is the Halfling god of death in Faerun. Neutral, I believe.

Novawurmson
2012-08-30, 02:59 PM
The Golarion (PF campaign world) goddess of death is TN - Pharasma (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Pharasma).

navar100
2012-08-30, 07:02 PM
Osiris has his limitations on creating undead. He's ok with mummies since their true purpose is to guard tombs. Lichdom is also ok provided you're an "archlich", aka good alignment. Presumably you want to continue your good works. Clerics could become liches. Skeletons as guards is probably also ok, but zombies, ghouls, shadows, etc., the flesh eaters and soul sappers are no-nos.

Inglenook
2012-08-30, 07:23 PM
Hades in Greek mythology would be considered lawful neutral, I think (aside from that one little blip of kidnapping Persephone).

He's actually less evil than 95% of the Greek pantheon, probably. :smallfrown:

ETA: Hel from Norse myth isn't really evil either. More grumpy/dour, and stuck with a job she doesn't want because she comes from a family of ne'er-do-wells.

Logic
2012-08-30, 07:35 PM
With permission from your DM, you could always ask to use a Homebrew god of death.

My homebrew campaign has a lesser Lawful Good god of Death, Kredon, Judge of the Dead.

TheCountAlucard
2012-08-30, 08:44 PM
Saturn, from the Exalted setting, is a pretty chill goddess. Then again, all five of the Maidens of Destiny are pretty awesome goddesses. :smallbiggrin:

"Every ending brings a new beginning." :smallamused:

Heliomance
2012-09-01, 06:38 AM
I checked out my Forgotten Realms book, and Kelemvor and/or Jergal aren't what I'm looking for. I'm primarily looking for a god of death that is also okay with animating undead. Osiris may be my only hope in this. He's among the Pharaonic Pantheon, correct?

There's a few Neutral gods of death, but D&D has decreed that undead ore badevilwrong (TM) and so finding a non-evil god that's okay with them is going to be tricky.

wumpus
2012-09-01, 08:11 AM
ETA: Hel from Norse myth isn't really evil either. More grumpy/dour, and stuck with a job she doesn't want because she comes from a family of ne'er-do-wells.

Odin could certainly claim to be a god of death. He was listed in both the copyright violating and non-violating Deity & Demigods as chaotic good, but if you play up his death side (and love for human sacrifice) he easily slides past neutral, often all the way to evil.

North_Ranger
2012-09-01, 12:51 PM
The Golarion (PF campaign world) goddess of death is TN - Pharasma (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Pharasma).

If memory serves, Pharasma is also the goddess of midwives and birth, so everything involving the beginning and the end of life is her domain.

Urpriest
2012-09-01, 01:31 PM
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Evening Glory yet- TN deity from Libris Mortis- goddess of "eternal love".

This: heavily undead-focused, non-evil deity. Though really, Wee Jas is always the best choice anyway.

Averis Vol
2012-09-01, 01:41 PM
In DnD undead are evil purely by the means that make them; that is, the infusion of unlife into a corpse binding an artificial soul to it. I don't see why a sentient undead has to act evil just because a necromancer brought them back from the afterlife, though, I can see being pretty pissed at the guy for it.

Atleast thats my interpretation of if, take it as you will.

navar100
2012-09-01, 07:14 PM
Cheat

Create Deathless

:smallcool:

Rainbownaga
2012-09-01, 10:58 PM
Hades in Greek mythology would be considered lawful neutral, I think (aside from that one little blip of kidnapping Persephone).

He's actually less evil than 95% of the Greek pantheon, probably. :smallfrown:

I think he's actually evil in Deities and Demigods. Yeah, i was dissapointed too, the Greek Deities should all be morally neutral, really.


ETA: Hel from Norse myth isn't really evil either. More grumpy/dour, and stuck with a job she doesn't want because she comes from a family of ne'er-do-wells.

Isn't it her and her children that are destined to cause Ragnarok?

Beowulf DW
2012-09-01, 11:01 PM
Perhaps a neutral good god of death whose followers prepare the dead for interment and comfort the families of the deceased? The priests of Morr are like that in The Legend of Sigmar.

awa
2012-09-01, 11:49 PM
no the monsters that help end the world are her brothers not her children

edit actually are we allowed to mention real world gods even if they do have d&d stats?

Inglenook
2012-09-02, 12:50 AM
Hel is pretty much absent from any mention of Ragnarok as far as I can recall; her mom/dad/brothers are the ones wreaking havoc.

ETA: Surely it's permissible to mention something that's officially statted out by WotC?

JCunning
2012-09-05, 08:16 AM
It's pretty old school, but Nemorga from the Scarred Lands would fit what you are looking for. A Neutral demi-god of death with domains of Death, Gateways, Knowledge, Missionary and Travel.

Also the patron deity of Hallowfaust; a city full of Necromancers who use undead as a resource. It is considered part of one's civic duty to allow their body to be used as a resource for taking care of or protecting the city after death. A very interesting place.

Since the Scarred Lands books were all done in the early days of 3rd edition, a lot of info is available online, with some of it even converted.

Manly Man
2012-09-05, 12:25 PM
I'm quite sure that Osiris would be okay with the creation of undead to a point, as has been said already. Mummies I imagine he would wholly support, especially if they were to take the Tomb Guardian class in Libris Mortis. Anubis would most definitely be against it himself, however, if you were to go tomb-robbing or grave-robbing for the bodies, though he is the guardian of the dead, not an actual death god. If it was all to be arranged that the person was going to be raised, especially mummified, when they die, he would have little problem with it, though the limitations he has would likely be even stricter than Osiris.

Hades is also one to consider. That they list him as Neutral Evil is a real shame since, as has been said, the only bad thing on his list is The Rape of Persephone, but even then, that was more of a shotgun wedding than anything else, and it still didn't turn out as planned. I think that he would be okay with the raising of the undead, but if so, he'd probably be willing to do so only if you were to offer something in return, since if someone goes to his part of the underworld, they're kinda supposed to stay there.

Hel, I think, would be in a similar boat. She was willing to offer back Balder, for example, if all the worlds were to shed tears for him, and the only reason why they didn't get him back was because Loki was a buttmunch. As Hades, her alignment would, in all reality, be much more as some kind of neutral than anything else since she wasn't evil so much as she was a little pissy and depressed at times. They were both stuck with the gloomiest jobs in their universes, after all. For the undead, she'd probably have something similar to Hades in that you'd have to offer something in return.

Then there's Evening Glory, as Hamishspence has already suggested. I honestly think she'd be about as fitting for this as one could ask. Just look her up in Libris Mortis; I think one of her domains is actually listed as Good.

Though I'm not as well-versed in Celtic mythology as I'd like to be, there's also another death god to consider in Arawn. You'd have to give him a bit of research though.

Among the chief death gods in Aztec mythology, there was also Miclantecuhtli, who may or may not be considered evil. Much of his portfolio included things like fertility and health as well, because of how he was depicted with bones everywhere.

karkus
2012-09-05, 09:19 PM
Thanks for your opinions, everyone.

I think that I've narrowed it down to either Wee Jas or Osiris, and I've read some things about Wee Jas' clergy, and it seems like it's the "style" that I'm portraying in the character I was designing this for. What they do is follow the laws (I know, big shocker). She is among the handful of death-based deities that can openly worship in cities, because there's no jurisdiction for the guards to arrest them. They pay all taxes/fees, and never graverob/perform weird necromantic rituals in basements, so the most that paladins probably do is give their "new neighbors" dirty looks.

I realized earlier today that the only thing I needed to do was find a deity that was okay with skeletons and whose "rites" or whatever were not illegal. Someone pointed out that Osiris would most likely be fine with skeletons, and we could all agree on Wee Jas being okay with them as well.

Once again, thanks for everyone's help on this.