[PF] Several summoner questions

[The Redwolf]

I want to play a summoner at some point that gets the ability to use gate. I was reading over it and it said that you pay a cost of like ten grand to use it and that you can make contracts with the things you gate to get them to help you for extended periods of time. It also mentions being able to call a specific creature from another plane if you know their name. I was thinking about it and it seems like it would be cool to have a few different outsiders that I would be on good terms with that I could gate in for different situations.

That being said, how would I go about learning the names of specific outsiders other than just summoning them and asking, is there some sort of mystical limit to how many of their names you can know or something like that that I'm unaware of, and are there ways to get around the cost of casting the gate?

I'll probably have some other questions later on, but these are good to start with. I appreciate any help that you guys can give.

[Ranos]

A sufficiently powerful divination spell. Commune, legend lore, etc.
Any sort of mind control.
A quest.
A trade.

[The Redwolf]

I don't think summoners get divination, do they? I'd probably need to get help then. I wonder how likely an outsider would be to tell you their name if you asked...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Planar Binding + Sufficient Debuffs and/or threats make for very willing (if probably pissed off) outsiders :smallwink:

[Psyren]

I don't think summoners get divination, do they?

You don't need the actual spells on your list - you're a Cha-based class with UMD as a class skill.

Also, any of the methods used to learn a Truename (ToM 198) should work here. They're general enough to function just fine in PF.

[The Redwolf]

Planar Binding + Sufficient Debuffs and/or threats make for very willing (if probably pissed off) outsiders :smallwink:

I would want to be on good terms with them though, more of a "if I need their help they'll help me" than "I'll force them to help me when necessary even if it might end badly later". Also, I have kind of a fun backstory thing planned for him that's very dependent on most of the ones summoned having a positive attitude toward him.


You don't need the actual spells on your list - you're a Cha-based class with UMD as a class skill.

Also, any of the methods used to learn a Truename (ToM 198) should work here. They're general enough to function just fine in PF.

Are truenames the same as their normal name? Like doesn't knowing a truename give you power over them or something like that? I'm going off of other media, I haven't read it in D and D, but would I need to know a truename or would a normal one work alright for the spell?

[The Redwolf]

I just came up with another question that relates to something you mentioned there Psyren, the usage of wands. Is there a limit to the level of spell that can be placed on a want? Because I noticed that create demiplane is on the list of summoner spells, but the greater version isn't, and I did want to have him make his own plane eventually. I was just wondering if it would be possible to get a wand that has some charges of the greater version so that I could make a good sized one and then permanency them and add more with less dramatic features using my own spell and a wand with permanency. And then if I did this and chose to enhance summoning spells, what exactly does that make happen? The SRD doesn't say anything about it, it just states that as an option.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wands are restricted up to level 4, Staffs on the other hand are not restricted in the spell levels they can use.

[The Redwolf]

Wands are restricted up to level 4, Staffs on the other hand are not restricted in the spell levels they can use.

Alright, I'm starting to see what I should look into for this then...I feel an awesome character forming, thank you guys. Still wondering about the truename stuff though.

[Psyren]

Scrolls can also hold any level of spell.

A truename is handy because it lets you identify them unequivocally. Think of it as a serial number - it's completely unique to that being. If you get or are given a more traditional "name" for that entity and it turns out to be the wrong one, or if its ambiguous (e.g. two demons share the same name) then it's up to your DM what happens at that point. The binding might fail entirely, or you might end up with the wrong creature, or something even more disastrous may occur.

But I wasn't even going as far in-depth as obtaining truenames; I was focusing more on the research methods involved in that section. After all, anything rigorous enough to uncover a truename is undoubtedly good enough to get a lesser name. Divination spells, research in a library, bardic lore, family members, famous deeds committed by the subject etc. All of these are tools you can use to identify an individual outsider, and eventually learn its name.

So to summarize - learn its truename if you can, but if you can't, that chapter is still handy.

[Water_Bear]

I just came up with another question that relates to something you mentioned there Psyren, the usage of wands. Is there a limit to the level of spell that can be placed on a want?

Yes, you can only make a Wand of a 4th level or lower spell. With the summoner list the way it is, that still means you'll have some pretty powerful spells on it. Also make sure to check the price of summoner Wands; each kind of caster crafts them at slightly different prices, and availability can be restricted on logical grounds ("How many Summoners are there with Craft Wand who know that spell?").

Personally I think you'll want a Scroll; Scrolls have no limits on how high level they can be and are reasonably priced. You take a 5% chance of scroll mishaps, unless you find a way to Take 10 on UMD, but it's absolutely worth it.

[The Redwolf]

Personally I think you'll want a Scroll; Scrolls have no limits on how high level they can be and are reasonably priced. You take a 5% chance of scroll mishaps, unless you find a way to Take 10 on UMD, but it's absolutely worth it.

Well if I'm unthreatened since I'm on my own plane I could take ten couldn't I? Also, I'm thinking a staff would be better than a scroll because I could store multiple charges in it, whereas a scroll would be destroyed after I use it, unless there's some big difference in price.

So this is kind of snowballing here I realize, but the more you guys help me the more ideas I get, which is making me very happy. Is there any way to avoid the retroactive effects of leaving a timeless plane? Because I'm coming up with some cool stuff for this character that could play great into living on a timeless plane, but it says that as soon as you leave any aging, hunger, etc. that should have occurred hits you, and that could be bad depending on how long he spent there. Also, what are the limits on researching a spell pre-epic? Someone recently gave me a link that explained epic spell creation, but what would the limits be for pre-epic and would there be any ways for me to get spell slots higher than 6th level as a summoner or would that require being epic?

[Lord Tyger]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/outsider-categories) may be of interest to you.

The part directly relevant to your question is under True Names, but it also provides descriptions of the various kinds of Outsiders, what sort of payment they might desire, and how you would go about bargaining with them.

[The Redwolf]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/outsider-categories) may be of interest to you.

The part directly relevant to your question is under True Names, but it also provides descriptions of the various kinds of Outsiders, what sort of payment they might desire, and how you would go about bargaining with them.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

[Water_Bear]

Well if I'm unthreatened since I'm on my own plane I could take ten couldn't I? Also, I'm thinking a staff would be better than a scroll because I could store multiple charges in it, whereas a scroll would be destroyed after I use it, unless there's some big difference in price.

In Pathfinder they explicitly state that you cannot Take 10 on UMD checks. Unless you find some kind of class feature or feat ability which overrides that general case, you have to live with the 5% mishap chance.

Also Scrolls are fairly cheap, so for a spell you won't use constantly they make more sense than a Staff. Plus most DMs won't penalize you for using consumables, so your WBL shouldn't change much.


So this is kind of snowballing here I realize, but the more you guys help me the more ideas I get, which is making me very happy. Is there any way to avoid the retroactive effects of leaving a timeless plane? Because I'm coming up with some cool stuff for this character that could play great into living on a timeless plane, but it says that as soon as you leave any aging, hunger, etc. that should have occurred hits you, and that could be bad depending on how long he spent there. Also, what are the limits on researching a spell pre-epic? Someone recently gave me a link that explained epic spell creation, but what would the limits be for pre-epic and would there be any ways for me to get spell slots higher than 6th level as a summoner or would that require being epic?

Timeless Planes: Make sure to eat and drink at regular intervals, and possibly be immortal depending on how long you plan on staying there.

Epic Spells: You cannot make Epic Spells without the Feat Epic Spellcaster, which requires you have 24 ranks in Spellcraft. That means that, in Pathfinder, you would need to be at least 24th level (only 21 in 3.5 though). Also there is no Epic content for Pathfinder; it would have to be ported over from 3.0 (it was never really updated, just eratta'd).

-Edit-

I also forgot; you also need to be able to cast 9th level spells. So no Epic for Summoners, even porting in the 3.5 rules. Sorry.

[The Redwolf]

(Cut for space.)

Well the first part sucks, but I can live with it, with the timeless planes I figured he would be essentially immortal, but the problem is if he leaves then any aging he avoided would hit him, which would be bad because I'd like him to still be able to adventure and whatnot. I wasn't planning on making epic spells, I was more wondering about the ability to research spells when you're non-epic. I know they have rules for it but I couldn't remember where, I was just hoping someone could point me to them, although now that I think about it I bet it's on the SRD.

[Lord Tyger]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Research-and-Designing-Spells

[TuggyNE]

In Pathfinder they explicitly state that you cannot Take 10 on UMD checks. Unless you find some kind of class feature or feat ability which overrides that general case, you have to live with the 5% mishap chance.

Note that, in both PF and 3.5, UMD does not auto-fail on a 1 (because no skill does); rather, if your check is insufficient to meet the DC, and you happened to have rolled a one, you suffer additional penalties.

[Water_Bear]

Note that, in both PF and 3.5, UMD does not auto-fail on a 1 (because no skill does); rather, if your check is insufficient to meet the DC, and you happened to have rolled a one, you suffer additional penalties.

Yeah, I messed up. The UMD check doesn't fail on a one, that's a separate Caster Level check for activating Scrolls whose spell is on your list but above the level you can cast.

[The Redwolf]

Alright, just a couple more things, firstly does anyone know about how that augment to spellcasting a plane can give works? I'm still wondering about that one because the SRD doesn't say, it just says that you can have one. Next, are there any ways to increase the number of points you can use with greater aspect like with a feat or something, because I plan on using the master summoner archetype and summoning a lot rather than using the eidolon, so it would be cool to have evolutions for my guy and I don't care how many the eidolon loses because it wouldn't be used. Finally, does anyone know a way to avoid the retroactive aging from leaving a timeless plane other than getting immortality or something? Could a wish accomplish that if it were very carefully worded?

[Andvare]

In Pathfinder they explicitly state that you cannot Take 10 on UMD checks. Unless you find some kind of class feature or feat ability which overrides that general case, you have to live with the 5% mishap chance.

As I read the PF UMD rules, you can only get a mishap when activating a magical item blindly, and not, for example, when using a scroll or wand as a magic user.
The mishap also only happens if you fail by ten or more. As activating blindly is a DC 25 check, having a skill modifier of 15 is sufficient to make sure this never happens (you can have at least a modifier of 12 as level one).

Unless you are talking about the "cannot use the magical item again for 24 hours if rolling a natural one" rule, as a mishap. I wouldn't call that a mishap though, it doesn't even autofail the attempt, just temporarily inactivates the magical item.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/useMagicDevice.html

[Lord Tyger]

There's another mishap chance- if you attempt to cast a spell from a scroll that is above your caster level, you have to make a check, and, if you fail that check, a wisdom check to avoid a mishap. The DC is, I think, only five (or 5+caster level of the spell?) but a one is an autofail.

[NamelessNPC]

You can also learn a Truename as a wizard only feat, here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/true-name). Maybe you can ask your DM if you can pick it up?

[ceduct]

planeshift to sigil hit the bars make friends :smallbiggrin:

[The Redwolf]

I'm going to bump this for those few questions I still have, and I figured I'd change the name to be more accurate since the original question is above and beyond answered now.

[Andvare]

Next, are there any ways to increase the number of points you can use with greater aspect like with a feat or something, because I plan on using the master summoner archetype and summoning a lot rather than using the eidolon, so it would be cool to have evolutions for my guy and I don't care how many the eidolon loses because it wouldn't be used.

There is none. Which is good for that reason you state. A Master Summoner is plenty powerful as it is.