OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah...I don't think I want to know the story behind that. And damn, this whole escaping thing is starting to get old. Let's hope they end up next to Xykon or something.

And hey, Tarquin doesn't have his axe anymore.

[SpacemanSpif]

I wonder who's going to start using that axe...

[Smolder]

So the accountant was just a red herring the whole time...

:smallconfused: "Drinking fountain?"
:smallsigh: Mimes it...
:smallamused: "Ooooh...."

[Crisis21]

Wow. Noodle innuendo out the wazoo there.

Kudos giant, kudos.

[Maryring]

Well... depending on where they're being teleported, there's as much as a 23% chance that something'll go not as planned with the spell.

[raymundo]

hrm.. 2h axe barbarian Belkar action?

Nah..

[themunck]

Retreat, and Tarquin cared enough to actually save Nale. Unexpected.
He left behind Malak. Also unexpected.
All in all, I like this strip. Quite suspenseful, and it is nice to see the order actually being successful for once.

[RebelRogue]

I don't get the "drinking fountain bit". It's clearly a dirty joke of some kind, but I can't figure it out.

Edit: Oh, I think I got it now...

[Ezlo]

I'm glad the Order won this skirmish and all, but I was really hoping to see Elan do something in the battle! Hopefully he's off doing something relevant because his complete absence in this scene is kind of disappointing.

[TheAntiplanar]

Very nice comic! The art of Tarquin throwing his axe was well done.

[Kalrany]

That was somewhat unexpected. I wonder where the LG ended up? Did T really choose N over M? And T just ditched his old ax? That seems a bit off, but.....

This is getting interesting -- I have the feeling this is just a short diversion and, dispite appearences their more going on here than we know... but then what do I know? :smallbiggrin:

Interesting comic -- thanks!

[RMS Oceanic]

Huh. Didn't expect a complete withdrawal. Although it may not be complete until we see where they end up.

[FujinAkari]

I like this comic, but I'm sure a lot of people are going to grumble about Tarquin knowing Drow-cant or whatever its called, despite how rationally its explained :P

*also remembers the 2E days where a bloody drow was all but required in amy gaming group*

[RustyVenture]

Another great one, Giant. What will Malack do now? And where the heck is Elan? I wonder if they will finally be able to figure out that it's Tarquin from the axe.

[RaggedAngel]

I'll just make a note for everyone questioning the decision to leave Malak behind; since Z doesn't have line of effect to him, he can't include him in the Teleport.

[lio45]

New comic already? Wow.

[Gift Jeraff]

Heh, arcana unearthed.

So both Nale and Tarquin are missing their weapons now?

[Argok]

All weapons are throwing weapons, even people are throwing weapons. Now maybe Durkon can have a nice conversation and try and smooth things over

[M.A.D]

Heh, "completely unbalanced -in all the best ways"

This is gold :smallbiggrin:

[Marelt Ekiran]

This is why I still consider it one of my best decisions as a DM to put a blanket ban on all spells with the teleport subtype.

Basically, any arcane caster with access to 4th level spells is never truly in danger, considering he's just a somatic-componentless spell away from safety (barring very elaborate setups, traps or enemies wasting turns trying to lock him down). Fights get a lot more tension when neither side has an instantaneous escape route available and retreats become risky endeavors.

[raymundo]

The next question is.. are there any weapon-teleporting enchantments? Or did the Order get an axe for good?

Man, somehow I imagine Durkon being soulspliced with Kraagnar..

[Pokonic]

Ahh, so many usable quotes, so few places to use them.:smallbiggrin:

[oppyu]

Awww, Elan didn't get to participate. Poor Elan.

"ELAN, IS IT COOL IF I KILL YOUR BROTHER WHAT CAN'T HEAR YOUR ANSWER SORRY!"

[Caivs]

Woah, fast update! Hmm, I must say I didn't expect them retreating either but as usual, Tarquin manages to give it some style

Now, the question is whether or not they're out of the game for Girard's gate yet (Thus remains the meeting of the Order and Malack, who probably won't attack them if his team has been routed), or if Tarquin will soon be back and take the lead.

[Agnostik]

hrm.. 2h axe barbarian Belkar action?

Nah..
If it was a greataxe, Belkar can't use it unless he has a feat (forgot how it's called). But it could've been a battleaxe, in that case it's possible but not really likely, I agree.

[Whiffet]

Hm, so Malack is here all alone? I wonder what will come of that. Anyway, three cheers for the OOTS! They have proven their competency!

[Yendor]

Sweet, free axe.

[Burner28]

I don't get the "drinking fountain bit". It's clearly a dirty joke of some kind, but I can't figure it out.



Me neither. Can anyone explain?:smallconfused:

[Lord Loss]

Ten bucks says Malack defects to the order's side.

[Caivs]

Me neither. Can anyone explain?

Um, it would be a little awkward

[Squark]

Umm... I think I can sort of guess, but I could also be barking up the wrong tree.

[Boogastreehouse]

Yeah! Just like real D&D.

If you've got enemies with get-away-abilities like teleport, you've really got to follow V's tactic and Dimensional Anchor them before they decide to run away.

[raymundo]

If it was a greataxe, Belkar can't use it unless he has a feat (forgot how it's called). But it could've been a battleaxe, in that case it's possible but not really likely, I agree.

Monkey grip? Doesn't he merely get a -4 or -2 to hit?

Besides, never let reason get in the way of awesome.

[Rendel Nep]

Oh I definately get what Tarquin is saying. Oh and did anyone noticed that the Kobold survived the battle?

[Xelbiuj]

If you don't get the fountain joke.
Suck it and mime pressing the button.

Hes say they ended up blazing a bowl.

lol@all the people thinking it's sex related.

[ti'esar]

I genuinely was not expecting that - both the fact that Tarquin bugged out and the fact that he took Nale with him.

Belkar stole the show here, but I liked Tarquin as well (though I'm not going to try too hard to figure his innuendo out...)

[SamBurke]

Well that was anticlimactic.

[Tyrael]

Me neither. Can anyone explain?:smallconfused:

When you drink from a drinking fountain, you bend over and purse your lips into an "O" shape.

Care to guess what other activities involve someone bending over and pursing their lips into an "O" shape? :smallamused:

[Chaotic Queen]

Why does everyone think Tarquin said something dirty? Here's a hint at what they thought he was miming.

Barry
Oswald
Needs
Gum

[Incom]

Okay, so everyone's status:

Sabine banished to the lower planes.
Qarr "Pop"ped somewhere. I'm assuming that's a teleport.
Z, Tarquin, Kilkil, and Nale teleported out.
Malack is still floating around and extremely likely to explain everything.
Mummies are dead, other than the one that fell in with V which we don't know about.

The Order is basically fine:
Durkon and Belkar have some damage--Belkar's deafness will probably wear off soon.
V is floating around like Malack. Blackwing is chasing him.
We haven't seen Elan.
Roy and Haley are totally fine.

So the ones unaccounted for are Malack, V/BW, and Elan. Speculation time:

V and Elan meet: V probably spills everything to Elan, who is likely disturbed that he barely missed getting killed, but that scene will probably still end in forgiveness (remember that V is Elan's GF's best friend, and that they do have quite a bit of respect for each other--the scene where Elan wants to take a level in wizard, the scene with the illusory celestial lion...).

V and Malack meet: Could go a couple ways, but I don't think the cleric of a god of death would be too bothered by familicide.

Elan and Malack meet: Comedic misunderstandings ensue. Beyond that, I dunno.

[Mantine]

How cute, Tarquin happening to have just the right convenient tool to resolve the situation.

I'm smiling.

[Trixie]

I'm glad the Order won this skirmish and all, but I was really hoping to see Elan do something in the battle! Hopefully he's off doing something relevant because his complete absence in this scene is kind of disappointing.

Do what? :smallconfused:

Picking 'Mass CLW' and 'Neutralize Poison' instead of actually useful spells = no ability to meaningfully contribute, sadly.

[Mutant Sheep]

Drow jokes... still classic! :smallbiggrin:

[Grimly Feendish]

I think Belkar deserved that kill, pity he didn't get it. This arc really puts Nale in his place as a second rater, the Order has messed before itself but always has something else to show you. The Linear Guild only looks good when they set everything up to their advantage.

[Smolder]

How cute, Tarquin happening to have just the right convenient tool to resolve the situation.

I'm smiling.

It makes perfect sense that Tarquin would know a few things about the Drow culture. He had to learn their language to fill out the gift card on the fruit baskets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) he was sending them.

[Mantine]

It makes perfect sense that Tarquin would know a few things about the Drow culture. He had to learn their language to fill out the gift card on the fruit baskets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) he was sending them.

Just because it's hinted at somewhere within the story doesn't make it plausible and believable.

[Xelbiuj]

Just because it's hinted at somewhere within the story doesn't make it plausible and believable.

I don't play D&D but isn't it pretty easy to end up learning a bunch of languages? Doesn't seem that implausible considering he works with evil people, he relies heavily on charisma and communication, and . . . naa I sort of agree. I hate all the d-riding on Tarquin. Stupid annoying.

[Iago]

Why does everyone think Tarquin said something dirty? Here's a hint at what they thought he was miming.

Barry
Oswald
Needs
Gum

I respectfully submit the contrary, as General Tarquin's mastery of cunning linguistic techniques, verbal and nonverbal, had been aptly illustrated just a few panels earlier in this strip.

[Smolder]

Just because it's hinted at somewhere within the story doesn't make it plausible and believable.

By definition, it makes it more plausible. Believable is in the eye of the beholder.

[Aidjn]

If you don't get the fountain joke.
Suck it and mime pressing the button.

Hes say they ended up blazing a bowl.

lol@all the people thinking it's sex related.

Wrong. It's a drinking fountain- i.e. a fountain that provides water for you to lean over and scoop up, or, in what Tarquin's getting at, stick your face in and suck in with your mouth.

It's an oral sex joke, which goes with Tarquin's obsessed with sex/Casanova/both schtick.

[Boogastreehouse]

This is why I still consider it one of my best decisions as a DM to put a blanket ban on all spells with the teleport subtype.

Basically, any arcane caster with access to 4th level spells is never truly in danger, considering he's just a somatic-componentless spell away from safety (barring very elaborate setups, traps or enemies wasting turns trying to lock him down). Fights get a lot more tension when neither side has an instantaneous escape route available and retreats become risky endeavors.

I think outright banning something is the lazy solution. In a world where teleport (telepork?) spells exist there would logically be precautions that were commonly taken to avoid their abuse.

If you have access to 4th level spells you are a badass. You've earned the right to waltz in to an encampment of goblin bandits, take their golden idol and teleport out before they knew what hit them.

If you go up against an opponent with as much experience as you however, you should expect them to be prepared for Scry/Teleport shenanigans. In fact, my players eventually figured out that many NPCs were so paranoid of scry-n-die attacks that they would often take elaborate precautions against them, simultaneously leaving large gaps in other areas of their defense.

Details like this, I felt, made the world feel a lot more "real."

[t209]

I'm hoping V manage to mess up Order's plan. I think the situation is not going to be in FUBR.

[Yendor]

The drow are notorious for being backstabbing bastards. Of course Tarquin speaks their language.

[rgrekejin]

I'm hoping V manage to mess up Order's plan. I think the situation is not going to be in FUBR.

I'm inclined to think that the Order's plan is over, with the LG teleporting out. I'm not sure they had any plans beyond the initial ambush, so I doubt there's anything left to mess up.

[Morgan Wick]

Forget Tarquin, why does Zzdtri know drow sign language? Or is drow sign language more than a crutch for deaf people?

[Fish]

I wonder if they will finally be able to figure out that it's Tarquin from the axe.
They can compare the axe to the one Tarquin carries, by having Elan cast Summon Plot Exposition.

Of course, the real clue is that the Unknown Fighter took Nale with him, showing an untoward loyalty that the Linear guys aren't known for.

[maxon]

Aw, they escaped!

[Emperordaniel]

Interesting. I wonder where they'll pop up. :smallsmile:

[Squark]

Forget Tarquin, why does Zzdtri know drow sign language? Or is drow sign language more than a crutch for deaf people?

It's used for the same reason the Military use hand signals; Silent communication. Which, given the paranoid Backstabbing Drow engage in, is very important. I believe it's one of the automatic languages for Drow.

[Brom]

Forget Tarquin, why does Zzdtri know drow sign language? Or is drow sign language more than a crutch for deaf people?

Short Answer: It's useful and it's a Drow military thing.
Long Answer
The Drow are aggressively militant, but at the same time, they're Elves, ergo with exceedingly low reproductive rates, compounded with an Almost Always Chaotic Evil society where members murder one another with a very frequent basis.

Yet they have extremely long lifespans to acquire military skills, and the constant threat of being killed by another Drow means they're pretty much all very well ready for duplicity, treachery, ambush, betrayal, and brutal combat. This translates to adopting commando fighting tactics, and stalking up on enemies is pretty much the norm.

Ergo, most Drow who can be equated to 'adventurers,' or have a combat background know Drow Sign Language, for the purposes of being able to communicate plans for betrayal in secret, or communicate in the pitch black of the Underdark where they can easily see using a purely visual medium. That way, Drow can plot in the dark to kill whatever prey has stumbled into the Underdark, without sounds that would give away their position.

In practice, by the way, this concept is so useful that I've talked pretty much every gaming group in every gaming system into having a Sign Language communication method. It comes up more often than you think.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Squark but I like my answer better =P

[Gwynfrid]

Too young to remember, I am not. That makes this update even more fantastic. Thanks, Rich !

[brionl]

I'll just make a note for everyone questioning the decision to leave Malak behind; since Z doesn't have line of effect to him, he can't include him in the Teleport.

He's not in line of effect, because they buggered off and didn't make any effort to get back in touch with him.

[dakameleon]

Forget Tarquin, why does Zzdtri know drow sign language? Or is drow sign language more than a crutch for deaf people?

Curious, why wouldn't Zz'dtri the drow not know the sign language? Did I miss something?

[Razanir]

Not about the comic, but these threads are actually how I notice new comics :smallbiggrin:

Now for a comic related thing, so this feels like a worthy post. I must say, I don't think I'd mind Malack joining the Order.

[yldenfrei]

More curiously, how does Roy know they're going to teleport?

Sure, enemies gathering in a spot and regrouping means something, but wouldn't it be sweet if Roy actually has a passing knowledge of Drow sign language and read Tarquin correctly. :smallbiggrin:

[ti'esar]

They can compare the axe to the one Tarquin carries, by having Elan cast Summon Plot Exposition.

Of course, the real clue is that the Unknown Fighter took Nale with him, showing an untoward loyalty that the Linear guys aren't known for.

On the other hand, they might just assume that he's really attached to the salary Nale's paying him.

[BannedInSchool]

Curious, why wouldn't Zz'dtri the drow not know the sign language? Did I miss something?
If one doesn't know why he would be more likely to know drow sign language than any human on Earth would be to know Earthican sign language, it seems an understandable point of confusion.

[M.A.D]

So, can anyone explain to me in detail the non-dirty variety of interpretation of Tarquin's joke?

[Yendor]

It's used for the same reason the Military use hand signals; Silent communication. Which, given the paranoid Backstabbing Drow engage in, is very important. I believe it's one of the automatic languages for Drow.

It's a bonus language, not automatic.

[Stabbey]

I don't think it matters if Tarquin knew Drow sign language or not. I think the drow could figure out what he wanted just from the context alone (Tarquin carrying an unconscious Nale and running away from the attackers, Sabine gone, the kobald paralyzed). It was clear that the fight was not going well for the Linear Guild. It wouldn't have been hard to figure out what Tarquin wanted even without Drow sign language.

[Kareasint]

Too young to remember, I am not. That makes this update even more fantastic. Thanks, Rich !

I still have my first edition books. Drow were completely overpowered back then.

Malack can do a Word of Recall if necessary. It would make sense for Tarquin to have a fall back position in place.

[Lexible]

If one doesn't know why he would be more likely to know drow sign language than any human on Earth would be to know Earthican sign language, it seems an understandable point of confusion.

Which (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sign_languages) "Earthican sign language" were you talking about?

[blackspeeker]

So, can anyone explain to me in detail the non-dirty variety of interpretation of Tarquin's joke?

If drow sign language is anything like American sign language then the sign for drinking fountain (link below) looks very similar to an illegal drug and a pipe that goes along with it.


http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/FOUNTAIN/5628/1
http://lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/w/water.htm
http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/PIPE

Or the signs he could be talking about are pipe and drink, which are similar, unlike drinking fountain, which I cant think of a similar sign for, unless we're using slang sign language, if that's a thing.

[JCAll]

It took me too long to realize that "Bring my accountant" meant "Bring Kilkil".
*facepalm* Clearly I'm a fool.

[with an e]

I don't see why we need to dwell on the believability or lack thereof of Tarquin knowing Drow sign language. It is not a necessary component of LG escaping this time.

[JohnnyCancer]

Looks like Pop is going to have to add Nondetection to his list of Batman prep if he didn't already have it. -4 to -9 vs. Scrying thanks to sudden OtS custody of that neato axe.

[Chess435]

10 gp says the axe has the Calling Enchantment. :smalltongue:

[OverdrivePrime]

Ha! Oh, Tarquin, you crazy ol' campaigner! :smallbiggrin:


This one time I thought I was using the hand sign for "drinking fountain," but it turned out I was actually asking if I could – well, suffice to say that it ened up as a fine evening for everyone.

Thanks for the new favorite non sequitur!

[Boogastreehouse]

Looks like Pop is going to have to add Nondetection to his list of Batman prep if he didn't already have it. -4 to -9 vs. Scrying thanks to sudden OtS custody of that neato axe.

There is no way someone as savvy as T doesn't have something as elementary as Nondetection.

'Course that won't stop some people from complaining that he has it...

[Bulldog Psion]

Though the drug theory is inventive, given Tarquin's discourse about curvy female drow, his personality, and the fact that it's a lot easier to see our sign for "drinking fountain" as "oral sex" than "smoking", I'd vote for Tarquin having shown his sly linguistic skills to the lady, rather than the other. :smallsmile:

[Wayac]

Ten bucks says Malack defects to the order's side.

Five more says it's part of Tarquin's plan!

[Lord Ensifer]

It took me too long to realize that "Bring my accountant" meant "Bring Kilkil".
*facepalm* Clearly I'm a fool.

Yeah, I did the same thing. I thought it was making fun of Tarquin for not knowing what he was saying, and then I realized it actually did make sense.

[Mantine]

I don't see why we need to dwell on the believability or lack thereof of Tarquin knowing Drow sign language. It is not a necessary component of LG escaping this time.

Being able to communicate with the only LG member capable of a fast and easy escape is totally a necessary component of said LG escaping.

[Smolder]

At least we are now sure that Suggestion has worn off.

Otherwise, Belkar may have run off looking for mansion whores. (And yes, the lack of swirly eyes)

[rgrekejin]

Boy, that would have been a really good time to have a spell-disrupting sword move...

I wonder if that gives us some (weak) information about how many times Roy has levelled since being raised.

[WindStruck]

You guys remember Tarquin also mentioning knowing the elf-ambasador-in-disquise was a drow and was sending them gift baskets? Yeah... it seems Tarquin has more relations to them than we might think... heck, I wonder if he really DOES have a true neutral half-drow son somewhere called lean or anel?

[Phexar]

Curious, why wouldn't Zz'dtri the drow not know the sign language? Did I miss something?


If one doesn't know why he would be more likely to know drow sign language than any human on Earth would be to know Earthican sign language, it seems an understandable point of confusion.

Tarquin's still talking to Nale, not Zz'dtri. He never actually says anything to Zz'dtri orally.

[denthor]

I love it when the enemy leaves tribute (the axe)

[Edea]

Hmm, might the axe have an enchantment on it that would give Tarquin a latent advantage over the Order, even though he's no longer present?

All the runes along the blade made me think of spells like Instant Summons, though that's just an example and not really applicable here (as the runes would appear on the sapphire component of the spell, and it would just call the weapon back).

[AbuSpud]

By definition, it makes it more plausible. Believable is in the eye of the beholder.

Making it completely unbelievable, as there wasn't a single beholder in the strip.:smallcool:

[holywhippet]

I think the real question is, why does Belkar feel the need to leap about 4 feet in the air as part of a coup de grace?

[erewhon]

Monkey grip? Doesn't he merely get a -4 or -2 to hit?

Besides, never let reason get in the way of awesome.

Belkar has been unhappy about his weapon shrinkage since, literally, the first strip. I think it would be six kinds of awesome if he started using Tarkie's axe.

Also, smart call to bail. I don't care how high level you are, going solo against Roy and Belkar, with cleric support and rogue attacks, is a losing play, and fast.

[Voyager]

Five more says it's part of Tarquin's plan!

This is Tarquin. If its not part of his plans now, it will be by the time he's done with it.

[KoboldRevenge]

So we're back onto the gate finding route now.

[holywhippet]

His decision to retreat might have been less in terms of self preservation and more in terms of long term planning. He has already shown himself to be willing and able to take on the Order by himself. But he needs Nale and his knowledge of the gates. Belkar was about to kill Nale and the Zz'dtri might have been next to die. Winning the battle but losing the war doesn't fit his profile.

[jere7my]

Being able to communicate with the only LG member capable of a fast and easy escape is totally a necessary component of said LG escaping.

Sure, but you probably don't need sign language to signal "Get us out of here!" They would've gotten away regardless; all that knowledge did was permit Tarquin to do it suavely.

[Kish]

Forget Tarquin, why does Zzdtri know drow sign language? Or is drow sign language more than a crutch for deaf people?
Incurably deaf drow--like any drow with any disability that can't be easily cured--are slaughtered as soon as it becomes evident they're deaf.

[Mantine]

Sure, but you probably don't need sign language to signal "Get us out of here!" They would've gotten away regardless; all that knowledge did was permit Tarquin to do it suavely.

Not really, without that "suave" clear-instant command to Z Roy and the rest of the gang would have been up their asses way before they could pull it off... and even with that, they still managed to escape only by a narrow margin.

I'm sorry, but the fog curtain "luckily" disappearing on the very same round Tarquin's "lucky" ability to communicate non-verbally to (lucky!) specifically the drow race crosses way too high the line to me.

[silvadel]

Uh oh -- they seem to have forgotten someone... Mallack is NOT going to be pleased.

Oh and as for teleport -- it isnt all that hard to make it not a battlefield option -- just make it take 10 combat rounds to cast.

[erewhon]

His decision to retreat might have been less in terms of self preservation and more in terms of long term planning. He has already shown himself to be willing and able to take on the Order by himself. But he needs Nale and his knowledge of the gates. Belkar was about to kill Nale and the Zz'dtri might have been next to die. Winning the battle but losing the war doesn't fit his profile.

Well....

Maybe. But we have seen these combatants before, and both Roy and Belkar were getting hits with regularity. Assuming Roy is hitting for 50-odd points per swing and he gets three swings a round, all it takes is for the dice to roll in his favor one round, and it's all over.

Do we have any idea what level of damage Belkar does? Even Roy notes that he is a capable warrior, and we've just seen how hard Roy can hit.

Haley is probably putting out ranged damage that's fairly close to what Roy generates, as well. (+5 bow, stat adds say +1, supporting feats to boost damage/accuracy adds +4 each, 4 shots per round at 1d6+10)

No matter how high level he is, I doubt Tarkie has more than 160 hitpoints or so.

Assuming the Order has level-appropriate items (not directly supported in canon but a reasonable assumption, I guess, since we have seen them buying...stuff), that's getting to be a solid wall of damage, and best avoided no matter who you are.

[Tridax]

Those who most probably are going to use the axe are Belkar or Durkon. Roy will not abandon his family sword, and others in the party simply do not have the proficiency in wielding two-handed weapons.

But I think that none of them will use the axe for battle. Perhaps Haley will just put it to her Bag of Holding (or whatever is the bag's name) for later.

[jere7my]

Not really, without that "suave" clear-instant command to Z Roy and the rest of the gang would have been up their asses way before they could pull it off... and even with that, they still managed to escape only by a narrow margin.

If he couldn't think of a way to communicate that clearly with hand gestures — and I can think of at least three — all he had to do was lean in close and mouth "Teleport!" If he had time to mention Kilkil, he would've had time to spell "teleport" with his fingers. Sure, there might be some slight chance of miscommunication, but not as great compared to the chance of Zz'd'tri's spell fizzling.

[Dracarot]

While I know the D&D rule related jokes are far less common now, and reliance on them even less so, I wonder if:

Nale will be dead by the time Tarquin and company finish teleporting to wherever they are or die shortly afterwords, due to being in negative hp and failing saves to stop said dying.

A semi wild guess but who knows...

[AutomatedTeller]

Fun comic - meets the high standards :) I had forgotten that Kilkil was tarquin's accountant, too.

Tarquin is pretty damn tough. I mean - the order keeps inconveniencing Xykon, even killing him once. Nothing they do seems to actually effect Tarquin, though. That seems a little odd. How powerful IS he?

[ChowGuy]

This is Tarquin. If its not part of his plans now, it will be have been by the time he's done with it.

Fixed that for you.

Of course, as a good general, he knows that it's advisable to have a contingency plan for a tactical retreat if one becomes necessary.

Which won't stop anyone here from calling it "unbelievable."

[FujinAkari]

While I know the D&D rule related jokes are far less common now, and reliance on them even less so, I wonder if:

Nale will be dead by the time Tarquin and company finish teleporting to wherever they are or die shortly afterwords, due to being in negative hp and failing saves to stop said dying.

A semi wild guess but who knows...

Seems very unlikely... and why are you spoiling that? O.o

[holywhippet]

While I know the D&D rule related jokes are far less common now, and reliance on them even less so, I wonder if:

Nale will be dead by the time Tarquin and company finish teleporting to wherever they are or die shortly afterwords, due to being in negative hp and failing saves to stop said dying.

A semi wild guess but who knows...

Unlikely. It is a DC 15 heal check to stabilize a dying character which Tarquin may or may not have enough ranks in. But odds are he has at least one healing item on his person he could use.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[rockdeworld]

Haha, Tarquin still talking to us, his audience, while making an escape. A fine night for everyone indeed :smallbiggrin:


Unlikely. It is a DC 15 heal check to stabilize a dying character which Tarquin may or may not have enough ranks in. But odds are he has at least one healing item on his person he could use.
Like a Ring of regeneration?
At any rate, how is Nale dying a joke?


Tarquin is pretty damn tough. I mean - the order keeps inconveniencing Xykon, even killing him once. Nothing they do seems to actually effect Tarquin, though. That seems a little odd. How powerful IS he?
I like to think he's a Level 20 multiclass fighter (or a single-class fighter with really good feats). I think it accounts for everything we've seen so far.

[sparkyinbozo]

It looks like Tarquin's a cunning linguist, one way or another....

[Sethram]

Forget Tarquin, why does Zzdtri know drow sign language? Or is drow sign language more than a crutch for deaf people?

Not that I know anything about Drow, but the importance of sign language or hand talk is entirely up to the culture that produces it. As I understand it, many of the different Native American cultures had well developed sign language that wasn't necessarily taught just to help communicate with the non-hearing.


Haha, Tarquin still talking to us, his audience, while making an escape. A fine night for everyone indeed :smallbiggrin

Which makes Tarquin's little quip about Nale talking to hear himself talk even more funny.

[Mantine]

If he couldn't think of a way to communicate that clearly with hand gestures — and I can think of at least three — all he had to do was lean in close and mouth "Teleport!" If he had time to mention Kilkil, he would've had time to spell "teleport" with his fingers. Sure, there might be some slight chance of miscommunication, but not as great compared to the chance of Zz'd'tri's spell fizzling.

What I'm addressing here is not fizzling, but overly convenient efficiency.

Could he have used some more common hand gestures?
Sure, and by the time Z understood+enacted the order, the entire Order would have been up their asses.

Could he have shouted in his hear?
Sure, and by doing that Roy would have realized his intentions and immediately run there pummeling.

By using a specific non-verbal drow code (I mean, really?) he not only conveyed his order perfectly within a second, but effectively cut up Roy and everyone else from understanding it before they banded together for the teleport.
Given how even with all the above they still barely escaped, it's no stretch to say that T's "lucky" ability effectively saved the team.

[Particle_Man]

You guys remember Tarquin also mentioning knowing the elf-ambasador-in-disquise was a drow and was sending them gift baskets? Yeah... it seems Tarquin has more relations to them than we might think... heck, I wonder if he really DOES have a true neutral half-drow son somewhere called lean or anel?

Ll'naenea, perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

[Tundar]

Heh, arcana unearthed.

Yup, shows that Tarquin is as old as the mountains.
And I love the drow jokes too!

[Agnostik]

Uh oh -- they seem to have forgotten someone... Mallack is NOT going to be pleased.
Getting abandoned by their respective parties is one more thing Durkon and Malack can bond over. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Re: Malack left behind--we don't know where they've teleported to, they might have gone back to the entrance of the pyramid and will make haste to rejoin him! I would be surprised if Tarquin intended to leave this fight for longer than it takes for everyone to recover their hearing.

[jere7my]

Could he have used some more common hand gestures?
Sure, and by the time Z understood+enacted the order, the entire Order would have been up their asses.

It would not have taken any longer to mouth the word "Teleport", or to point at Zz'd'tri and make a "Get us out of here" gesture or two, than it did to convey two complete sentences in Drow sign language (and in Common — he was talking about bec de corbins and curvy Drow maidens in the same amount of time). The sign language just allowed him to do it in style.

Here's an experiment: Time how long it takes you to say those two sentences, about the bec de corbin and so on. Then try to silently communicate the word "Teleport" or "Get us out of here" in the same amount of time or less. I bet it won't be that hard...even if you don't know Drow sign language.


Could he have shouted in his hear?
Sure, and by doing that Roy would have realized his intentions and immediately run there pummeling.

Good point. Doing it this way, Roy couldn't possibly say "Durkon! They're going to teleport!" in the next panel.


By using a specific non-verbal drow code (I mean, really?)

I think you're missing the joke. Back in the day, everybody who could learned Drow sign language, because it was Kewl. It's not any kind of a stretch to say that a random old-school character sheet from the time immediately following the release of Unearthed Arcana would have Drow sign language written on it. For a while, that was as common as a 17 comeliness.

[LuPuWei]

They... defeated the Linear Guild??

Curb-Stomped them? Using a plan that actually worked? Stood their ground instead of running away? Didn't need Lawyers and Loopholes?

:smallsigh: - Sniff... Our little PCs are all grown up! :smallbiggrin:

[StClair]

"if You Don't Want Me To Kill Him Say So Now Okay!"

[ChowGuy]

Here's an experiment: Time how long it takes you to say those two sentences, about the bec de corbin and so on.
It's been established that speech in OOTS is a free action, ergo it takes no time at all, unless it's funny because it does - like when V bores the Goblins to sleep before they can move.


Then try to silently communicate the word "Teleport" or "Get us out of here" in the same amount of time or less.

I... actually have no idea how I would go about doing that, without the benefit of some pre-arranged signals. Something like, oh I don't know, a sign language. Perhaps one designed expressly for spells and combat situations. I'll bet you can't think of one either in the same time you specified.

BTW, note that while Tarquin was verbose in his expository speech for his/our benefit, he had only to communicate three words at most to Z, and we are even helpfully told what they were. "Teleport," "Bring" and "Accountant" the last of which could have been done by simply pointing to Kilkil.

That much Drow sign language he should easily have picked up if he had ever worked with Drow in the past; the rest of what he says is needed only to:

A) Establish for the reader how he's communicating, and
B) Provide the funny, which is what a comic strip is all about.

Heck, for all we know the "funny" part may just be another of the dubious stories he indulges in solely to build up his "legendary" status.

[ghoul-n]

Making it completely unbelievable, as there wasn't a single beholder in the strip.

Well, there was one.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

[Hopeless]

Yeah...I don't think I want to know the story behind that. And damn, this whole escaping thing is starting to get old. Let's hope they end up next to Xykon or something.

And hey, Tarquin doesn't have his axe anymore.

So did Nale and perhaps their Kobold helper did also, so I figure that axe is a major new weapon for Roy or Durkon since as a dwarf axes should be perfectly useable and does this mean Elan has a new weapon and possibly Belkar too?

Okay I bet the Kobold didn't drop anything but I wonder what those mummies were packing since I figure they weren't searched beforehand!

[Puschkin]

Belkars line got me almost literally falling over with my chair laughing :smallsmile:

[dtilque]

Heh, "completely unbalanced -in all the best ways"

This is gold :smallbiggrin:

For those who aren't familiar with the history of D&D, this is an injoke which I wasn't aware of until I read the wiki page on Unearthed Arcana. That book introduced a number of new races and subraces including drows. The general consensus among critics were that these races were overpowered and thus unbalanced the game.

[factotum]

They... defeated the Linear Guild??

Curb-Stomped them? Using a plan that actually worked? Stood their ground instead of running away? Didn't need Lawyers and Loopholes?


You mean, just like they did in Cliffport? Or later, in Azure City? Heck, the only time the Order have had any trouble at all dealing with the Linear Guild is in Dorukan's Dungeon--they've handily beat them at every encounter since.

[Winter]

Don't get me wrong, I still like the comic... but the Linear Guild escaping again without any consequence? This is getting really, really, reeeaaallly boring.

Kill them off or don't, but at least I am tired of encounters that end without Nale or Sabine dead and them simply running/flying/teleporting out. I'm beyond caring for the schmucks (but even Kilkil made it out).

I know we are in the "middle of something" but just another "pop" is way too stale. This here now was extra-boring as there never was a real threat to anything as Tarquin had (the pretty awesome trap of the Order notwithstanding) everything in firm hands.

[sims796]

You mean, just like they did in Cliffport? Or later, in Azure City? Heck, the only time the Order have had any trouble at all dealing with the Linear Guild is in Dorukan's Dungeon--they've handily beat them at every encounter since.

They planned to lose in Cliffport, and I think that he didn't count Azure city since the entire story would have hit a stalemate if not for that guy what taught Elan of the Dashing Bard. What was his name?

[eras10]

Some things to think about:

-- As we near the fourth gate, V has been separated from the Order. We can strongly suspect from Qarr's behavior that the ArchFiends are about to temporarily repossess her.

-- Malack has been separated from his authority source and is now a wildcard.

-- It seems like plans to control the gate require one divine and one arcane caster - and given the implications they should be nongood (or mind-controlled). Those requirements are now present on location and isolated.

-- We're one successful threat, bargain or mental enslavement away from the IFCC being ready to make a play for control of this gate.


-- I expect the real disruption to this plan is going to be either 10,000 soldiers of the Emperess of Blood, or else Xykon. It would be hilarious and fascinating if Xykon had to blow this gate himself to interrupt the IFCC's plan for it.

-- I don't know what's going to happen to OOTS in this plan, but it's not good.

[pendell]

I don't see why we need to dwell on the believability or lack thereof of Tarquin knowing Drow sign language. It is not a necessary component of LG escaping this time.

If he adventured back in the days when the Forgotten Realms Underdark was a big thing, it'd be no surprise. Between the followers of elistree and Drizzt and jarlaxle, the Realms were overrun with refugees from the Underdark and I believe they all spoke drow sign language . Even if not every drow speaks it, it's perfectly plausible that a high-level arcane caster, and a general who (it is now revealed) spent a lot of his career fighting with or against drow, should both know it.

So the order wins one. They don't actually get to capitalize on the victory to deal lasting damage, but its' better than running in disgrace.

I find I can't complain. Unlike Nale's wand of energy draining, which seemed a pulled-from-hammerspace contrivance to keep Durkon from instantly winning in their last fight, this is in-universe and plausible from both characters. Naturally zzdtri would have an escape spell, and naturally a fighter who relies on defense as heavily as Tarquin does would be prepared to enact a tactical withdrawal with efficiency.


A little bit disappointing that the victory is fruitless, or at least mostly so. But I guess it's too early in the book for anything really decisive to happen yet.

Oh, yes... until I see the Xs in Thog's eyes, I assume he is alive and ready to cause trouble later in this book or another.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Krim]

His decision to retreat might have been less in terms of self preservation and more in terms of long term planning. He has already shown himself to be willing and able to take on the Order by himself. But he needs Nale and his knowledge of the gates. Belkar was about to kill Nale and the Zz'dtri might have been next to die. Winning the battle but losing the war doesn't fit his profile.

That time, the Order was ambushed and unprepared, as well as conveniently hit by a couple of acid splash. Tarquin was presumably buffed up, as the Guild prepared that attack well. Should Tarquin have tried to take on Roy, Belkar, Haley and Durkon by himself, he would have probably find that the situation had been...reversed.

[Watcher]

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.

[Adeptus]

Nale lives, and Tarquin had to leave his axe behind.

Tactical victory for the Order without things getting too gruesome. Nice :)

[The Pilgrim]

"Bring my accountant", wow, Dorw sign language is really specific.

[Grey Watcher]

"Bring my accountant", wow, Dorw sign language is really specific.

I guess DSL is as fully developed as ASL and other real world equivalents. Frankly, I'm more surprised that he can say all that one-handed.



Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.

Eh, Tarquin does have an established talent for pulling out something obscure and yet astonishingly useful on a moment's notice. Like the ability to pun-duel or having glamered armor just perfect for a disguise. So I can just take it as another example of that.

[fwiffo]

"Bring my accountant", wow, Dorw sign language is really specific.

I wondered about that too. "Kobold" I can understand. Drow should have the sign for them. But accountant? Given as the most plausable purpose of the language seems to be the silent communication before the battle, how many times before in Drow history the word "accountant" came up in pre-combat chat? :smallamused:

[Winter]

I'm also feeling a bit fuzzy in regard to Tarquin. Until recently, I felt him to be a magnificent bastard, a pretty able and cool character.
But if he now pulls lightning from his behind and starts to scorch the gods with fireballs from his eyes, I'd really not be surprised but shrug.

Does this guy really have no weakness? Is there anything he cannot do? I am pretty certain there are flaws as well, but by now it's getting harder and harder for me to perceive him as fully believable character.

Anyway, even if I'm not really feeling any suspense I'm eager to see how things unfold.

[Smolder]

I wondered about that too. "Kobold" I can understand. Drow should have the sign for them. But accountant? Given as the most plausable purpose of the language seems to be the silent communication before the battle, how many times before in Drow history the word "accountant" came up in pre-combat chat? :smallamused:

How plausible is it that anyone in OOTSverse can use sign language? After all, they only have THREE digits on each hand.

If you really want to nitpick, you could just say that no sign language could exist that is intricate enough to say "accountant" on one hand with only TWO fingers and a thumb in the amount of time given!

[Ransle]

As a Deaf gal I LOVE this! Everyone think 1 sign class in middle school means they can say anything! Captioned TV is almost as bad -- really funny freudian slips. Keep us the great work! Go Sign!

[elros]

Malack has been separated from his authority source and is now a wildcard.
We know that Malack gets upset when his precious zombies get hacked up, so can you image his reaction when he finds their dismembered bodies? I like how the Giant is setting up the next conflict- especially if he shows us Malack going full power (like he did against Nale)!

[Forias]

I'm afraid that I didn't get the joke at the beginning. Why was Belkar suddenly talking about mansion whores?

[Werbaer]

I'm afraid that I didn't get the joke at the beginning. Why was Belkar suddenly talking about mansion whores?
Di-mension door
damn mansion whore
(his deafness is fading)

[Deuce]

By definition, it makes it more plausible. Believable is in the eye of the beholder.

So now you're saying he speaks Beholder as well? Talk about an evil Mary Sue. :wink:

[Deepbluediver]

Ten bucks says Malack defects to the order's side.

Five more says it's part of Tarquin's plan!

I'll take that bet; Malack may hate Nale and be friendly with Durkon, but he's been a steadfast and loyal ally of Tarquin's for DECADES, and by all accounts, Tarquin's long-term plans are working perfectly.

Plus, Tarquin has been working hard all this time to avoid letting the order know who he is. If Malack shows up, what's the first thing the Order's gonna ask him? (assuming they talk instead of fight) "Where's Tarquin?"


But odds are he has at least one healing item on his person he could use.

He's got a ring of regeneration; we've seen it in action once already. I don't know the exact rules for those sorts of things, but he can probably just slip it on Nale's finger for a few rounds and be done.

Edit: Swordsaged


What I'm addressing here is not fizzling, but overly convenient efficiency.
*snip*
By using a specific non-verbal drow code (I mean, really?) he not only conveyed his order perfectly within a second, but effectively cut up Roy and everyone else from understanding it before they banded together for the teleport.
Given how even with all the above they still barely escaped, it's no stretch to say that T's "lucky" ability effectively saved the team.

As far as I know, the Drow are the only race in D&D that are specifically called out as having an alternate non-verbal method of communicating. The drow has been around since chapter 1, so it doesn't seem that contrived that drow-related quirks are showing up in the comic. Now, if Z had been Tarquin's caster, brought along just for this mission, then I would admit you might be on to something.


Does this guy really have no weakness? Is there anything he cannot do? I am pretty certain there are flaws as well, but by now it's getting harder and harder for me to perceive him as fully believable character.

I would say he's probably almost as powerful as Xykon, just in a more creative and less mechanical way, and he's more cautious. Frankly, this is how characters SHOULD be playing, if death in D&D wasn't such a revolving door. Imagine if you had exactly one character, and if he died you didn't get rezzed and you couldn't reroll. In fact, imagine if when that one character died you could never play with that D&D group again. No adventurer would leave the safety of a city without 100 pounds of magical-amulets to account for every concievable situation.


Some things to think about:

-- As we near the fourth gate, V has been separated from the Order. We can strongly suspect from Qarr's behavior that the ArchFiends are about to temporarily repossess her.

-- Malack has been separated from his authority source and is now a wildcard.

A powerful arcane caster and divine caster have both been seperated from their repsective groups, in a facility that (probably) holds the Gate. Coincedence?
Almost certainly, but is anyone else REALLY hoping to see a V & Malack vs. Xykon and Redcloak spell-duel? :smallamused:

[Emperordaniel]

He's got a ring of regeneration; we've seen it in action once already. I don't know the exact rules for those sorts of things, but he can probably just slip it on Nale's finger for a few rounds and be done.

Last I checked, Rings of Regeneration only work for wounds received while wearing the ring. Thus, it works for all wounds Tarquin currently incurs, but should Nale get it, it would only heal injuries he got after he put the ring on - nothing more.

[pendell]

But accountant? Given as the most plausable purpose of the language seems to be the silent communication before the battle, how many times before in Drow history the word "accountant" came up in pre-combat chat? :smallamused:

If the world has any equivalent of Jarlaxle Baenre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarlaxle) , more often than you might think. In the Homeland trilogy, he commanded a mercenary band which sometimes changed sides in the middle of a battle when offered more money. When your entire outlook is centered on profit, you would expect an epic-level NPC expert accountant to be just as much a part of the battle staff as soldiers.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forias]

Di-mension door
damn mansion whore
(his deafness is fading)
Many thanks!

[joca4christ]

Loved the update. Excited about the OOTS win!

You know, I have to confess to liking Tarquin as a character. I think his uber-resourcefulness leads to a few different things. First of all, when the OOTS do have a decisive win against him, when he is ultimately defeated (or however this all plays out), it will make the victory that much sweeter.

Also, it shows a very nice foil for Roy. I mean, Roy is a fighter with intelligence. Not sure if Tarquin's genre savvy-ness is intelligence based, but you can't deny his tactical abilities. Are we seeing what Roy could be if he made full use of this ability stat? Kind of like how we saw his plans for an ambush coming off almost flawlessly?

Another difference between the two is that Roy tends to lead in the open, while Tarquin pulls strings from behind. Again, it's a nice twist that fits nicely into the "opposites" them of the LG vs OOTS.

At any rate, great job Giant. Keep it up!

[Blisstake]

Though the drug theory is inventive, given Tarquin's discourse about curvy female drow, his personality, and the fact that it's a lot easier to see our sign for "drinking fountain" as "oral sex" than "smoking", I'd vote for Tarquin having shown his sly linguistic skills to the lady, rather than the other. :smallsmile:

I gues you could say he's a...

:smallsmile:


:smallcool:


Cunning linguist.

[willpell]

Which makes Tarquin's little quip about Nale talking to hear himself talk even more funny.

I guess Tarquin never learned to get his monologuing out of the way while shaving....


Well, there was one.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

No, that was "The Thing With The Eyes", according to the board game. Totally unrelated, of course.

[Peelee]

Not really, without that "suave" clear-instant command to Z Roy and the rest of the gang would have been up their asses way before they could pull it off... and even with that, they still managed to escape only by a narrow margin.

I'm sorry, but the fog curtain "luckily" disappearing on the very same round Tarquin's "lucky" ability to communicate non-verbally to (lucky!) specifically the drow race crosses way too high the line to me.

The fog curtain has been dissipating for at least two strips now. It is incredibly noticeable in the beginning of this strip, and shrinks in practically every panel.

It costs one skill point to learn a new language. Tarquin likes to be overly prepared in ludicrous ways. This is perfectly in keeping with his character.

Also, Drow sign language is the ONLY sign language in D&D (to my recollection). Using a D&D rule in a comic based on a D&D setting is not an unrealistic situation here. If this really crosses the line for you, either take it up with Wizards of the Coast and demand a reissue of the book with the one specific nonverbal communication they have taken out, then petition Rich to re-plot and re-draw this strip (along with any others so that continuity may be kept), or stop reading.

That isn't even addressing the previously mentioned fact that Roy TRIED to "be all up in their asses" before they could pull it off, as seen in the very next panel.


What I'm addressing here is not fizzling, but overly convenient efficiency.

Could he have used some more common hand gestures?
Sure, and by the time Z understood+enacted the order, the entire Order would have been up their asses.

Could he have shouted in his hear?
Sure, and by doing that Roy would have realized his intentions and immediately run there pummeling.

By using a specific non-verbal drow code (I mean, really?) he not only conveyed his order perfectly within a second, but effectively cut up Roy and everyone else from understanding it before they banded together for the teleport.
Given how even with all the above they still barely escaped, it's no stretch to say that T's "lucky" ability effectively saved the team.

It's no stretch to say T effectively saved the team, you are correct. To say "it's all because of Tarquin's luck! It's all luck!" over and over again is a stretch. Was he able to catch arrows due to luck? Or his ability to wear heavy armor, is that because he lucked into it? These are things that can be easily explained by the rules, but we currently can't, because we don't know how he was able to do it. We do know it is easily possible. Just like it is easily possible to know a language by the rules.

[brionl]

You guys remember Tarquin also mentioning knowing the elf-ambasador-in-disquise was a drow and was sending them gift baskets? Yeah... it seems Tarquin has more relations to them than we might think... heck, I wonder if he really DOES have a true neutral half-drow son somewhere called lean or anel?

He specifically said he only has the two sons. So we know he has a true-neutral daughter named Lena. Could be half-drow.

[willpell]

-- I expect the real disruption to this plan is going to be either 10,000 soldiers of the Emperess of Blood, or else Xykon.

Or, hopefully, both. Heck, throw in the Empress herself; I would love to see her and the MiTD, after a momentary "arm-wrestle" which levels several square yards of pyramid around them, end up attempting to outsmart each other. (Comedy gold!) While a few hundred feet away, Xykon kills 8d6 soldiers a round while the others line up for charge drills and hope to roll a crit. That still leaves Redcloak to keep the OOTS busy and perhaps have Malack show up and argue about Death vs. Evil or something (okay that's probably wishful thinking, philosophy buff that I am).

[Mantine]

*Edit

Double post, check later

[Bluepaw]

He specifically said he only has the two sons. So we know he has a true-neutral daughter named Lena. Could be half-drow.

Hah! Love this. Would be curious to see Lena drawn -- grayish skin, mandatory softcore fantasy Drow curves, and... the famous family face? bizarre.

As for the strip, bummer that Belkar didn't get his kill! Surely Tarquin could afford to have him raised -- if he didn't have a larger plan in place that involved not doing it -- and in the meantime could have had a few strips of Nale in the Other Place... :smallyuk: indeed.

[Peelee]

Roy only realized they were gonna teleport when he saw them all packing together holding hands. Then turned to Durkon in hope of a dimensional anchor of sort. Only when he confirmed of not being able to do it he run there.

Had he foreseen their intentions earlier, had he TIME, he would have simply run there. But he hadn't, because of T's secret code, which is what saved them.

Quote time! "Repeating it doesn't make it true." Ya know what, let's assume that Tarquin shouted as loudly and articulately as he could, "GET US OUT OF HERE! BRING MY ACCOUNTANT!" so that Z could understand him. The entire rest of the comic would still play the exact same. The next strip would still have Roy say "Durkon! They're preparing to teleport!" Roy would still get there just shy of the party teleporting away. Nothing would change. Just because you think it should or could doesn't mean it would.

[Mantine]

It would not have taken any longer to mouth the word "Teleport", or to point at Zz'd'tri and make a "Get us out of here" gesture or two, than it did to convey two complete sentences in Drow sign language (and in Common — he was talking about bec de corbins and curvy Drow maidens in the same amount of time). The sign language just allowed him to do it in style.
Repeating it doesn't make it true. :smallconfused:
How do you mouth a word with an helmet, anyway?


Here's an experiment: Time how long it takes you to say those two sentences, about the bec de corbin and so on. Then try to silently communicate the word "Teleport" or "Get us out of here" in the same amount of time or less. I bet it won't be that hard...even if you don't know Drow sign language.
I'm not speaking about timing, but about Roy receiving the message just as well.


Good point. Doing it this way, Roy couldn't possibly say "Durkon! They're going to teleport!" in the next panel.
Roy only realized they were gonna teleport when he saw them all packing together holding hands. Then turned to Durkon in hope of a dimensional anchor of sort. Only when he confirmed of not being able to do it he run there.

Had he foreseen their intentions earlier, had he had TIME, he would have simply run there. But he hadn't, because of T's secret code, which is what bought them the time needed to escape.
This is to address Peelee as well.


I think you're missing the joke. Back in the day, everybody who could learned Drow sign language, because it was Kewl. It's not any kind of a stretch to say that a random old-school character sheet from the time immediately following the release of Unearthed Arcana would have Drow sign language written on it. For a while, that was as common as a 17 comeliness.
Just as someone else said

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.

[Winter]

I would say he's probably almost as powerful as Xykon, just in a more creative and less mechanical way, and he's more cautious. Frankly, this is how characters SHOULD be playing, if death in D&D wasn't such a revolving door. Imagine if you had exactly one character, and if he died you didn't get rezzed and you couldn't reroll. In fact, imagine if when that one character died you could never play with that D&D group again. No adventurer would leave the safety of a city without 100 pounds of magical-amulets to account for every concievable situation.

This is a player meta-gaming a character to the fullest extend of the effectiveness of a character.
This is not, in any way, a well-rounded, believable character in/for a story.

Xykon might be as "powerful", but he's not coming over as "Perfect Superman Without The Weakness For Kryptonite". Xykon has lots of levels and power, but he's all in all a character I buy. Tarquin by now seems more like a bridge to me.

[Shatteredtower]

I must chuckle at all of the people who assume Tarquin's miscommunication lead to a night of sex or drugs, when it's obvious they wound up taking him out for a night of rock and roll. Honestly, it's not hard to tell what's on some minds... :smalltongue:


I'm beyond caring for the schmucks (but even Kilkil made it out).

A broken pattern could very well be significant. I'm reminded of the complaints about Thog's rally in the arena pit against Roy. Thog never had a finer hour, but that just wound up making Roy look all the better in the end.

We've spent a few strips watch the Order execute a brutally effective ambush. Since this isn't actually a game, however, the mastermind who's manipulated nations for decades did what he should be expected to do: get out of there with the same sort of efficiency that kept him alive when he lost his own throne.

As satisfying as it might be to see them beaten down, the Linear Guild is still just a side show, dangling on the strings of more ambitious and capable enemies. With all that's happening (with Malack and V, with Quarr or Sabine likely to be making a report to their patrons, and with a kobold breaking the recurring thread of dying soon after encountering the Order), I'm certain we're about to see somehting world-shaking on centre stage. I think we'll get a much better show if this prelude of chaos is not resolved before it seizes the spotlight.

What do I think we're going to see?

Let's just wait and find out for once, shall we? It's not like a right guess is worth any more than a wrong one here. :smallamused:

[Sky_Schemer]

Hey, look, the Linear Guild got away.

*yawn*

[kc0bbq]

Last I checked, Rings of Regeneration only work for wounds received while wearing the ring. Thus, it works for all wounds Tarquin currently incurs, but should Nale get it, it would only heal injuries he got after he put the ring on - nothing more.Unless he has a Ring of Regeneration left over from an earlier edition, like his knowledge about when all that arcana was unearthed.

[jere7my]

It's been established that speech in OOTS is a free action, ergo it takes no time at all, unless it's funny because it does - like when V bores the Goblins to sleep before they can move.

In that case, charading "Get us out of here" would be a free action, too.


I... actually have no idea how I would go about doing that, without the benefit of some pre-arranged signals.

*shrug* I reckon it's pretty easy to do charades for someone with a 17 or 18 intelligence. If Belkar can hear "Damn mansion whores", Zz'd'tri can probably figure out "Teleport!"

[jere7my]

Repeating it doesn't make it true. :smallconfused:
How do you mouth a word with an helmet, anyway?

If he'd really had to, he could've taken the helmet off as he was running. His back was to the Order of the Stick. But I find it hard to believe Tarquin couldn't come up with a "Get us out of here!" charade that would be understood by someone with a 17 or 18 intelligence in the time he had to talk about bec de corbins. Or he could've written "TELEPORT!" in Nale's blood — that would've been pretty badass, too.


Roy only realized they were gonna teleport when he saw them all packing together holding hands. Then turned to Durkon in hope of a dimensional anchor of sort. Only when he confirmed of not being able to do it he run there.

Had he foreseen their intentions earlier, had he had TIME, he would have simply run there. But he hadn't, because of T's secret code, which is what bought them the time needed to escape.

That isn't supported by the comic. The panels are adjacent; as far as the comic tells us, Roy figured it out and started running immediately after Tarquin communicated the plan. During the cutaway panel when Roy is running and shouting about teleporting, Zz'd'tri was presumably fetching Kilkil, not holding hands with anyone. That was not the clue that tipped Roy off. Do you really think Roy wasn't already pelting as quickly as he could toward the enemy as soon as Belkar shouted that they were getting away?

Certainly he and Durkon are already running when he asks for the dimensional anchor.

[Bulldog Psion]

A powerful arcane caster and divine caster have both been seperated from their repsective groups, in a facility that (probably) holds the Gate. Coincedence?
Almost certainly, but is anyone else REALLY hoping to see a V & Malack vs. Xykon and Redcloak spell-duel? :smallamused:

That would be an event that could actually pry the overused word "awesome" from my lips. :smallsmile:

[Chantelune]

For those complaining about Tarquin knowing drow sign language : rule of fun. The Giant said it took precedence over following the rules. ^^

I'm not too worried about Malack. He probably have a way to retreat by himself if need arise. Or it might have been part of the plan ("If things goes wrong and we need to retreat, find a way to "accidentaly" stay back"). The wall trap seems a bit too convenient that way, though, but we'll see.

Was hoping Belkar would finish Nale as well, too bad. I guess Tarquin still have some use for him. Or maybe he promised that Malack would get to kill him himself, thus saving him for his old friend's sake, like he did Durkon. :smalltongue:

[Shatteredtower]

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Sometimes, the joke isn't going to be designed with the entire audience in mind. This one works perfectly well because it's a) consistent with everything we've seen of Tarkin to date, and b) consistent with require to the choices someone who'd have played his type would have made back in 1st Edition.

Overall, that's worked out for the Giant much better than trying to make every joke or reference universally accessible (and acceptable). I'm not always happy with the results, but then I have to remind myself which of us has been selling an ongoing story for the better part of a decade now.

[Riverdance]

Great Comic as usual! Thanks Rich! :smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

I hate to get involved in another argument about Tarquin - especially since it's actually reached the point where I dislike his hatedom more then his fandom - but I have to say that I think people are missing the reason why people are objecting to him knowing Drow Sign Language. It's not that it made a crucial difference in the LG's escape, or that it's implausible, or that they don't get the joke. It's the way how he's once again pulled out some never-before-mentioned ability right when he needed it. "Luckily for us, I'm well-versed in Drow sign language" even sounds like the kind of line a stereotypical 60s superhero would utter when pulling new powers out of nowhere.

...That said, it doesn't bother me much. The "Tarquin is unbeatable" argument is pretty hard to buy when he just ran for it.

[Smolder]

I hate to get involved in another argument about Tarquin - especially since it's actually reached the point where I dislike his hatedom more then his fandom - but I have to say that I think people are missing the reason why people are objecting to him knowing Drow Sign Language. It's not that it made a crucial difference in the LG's escape, or that it's implausible, or that they don't get the joke. It's the way how he's once again pulled out some never-before-mentioned ability right when he needed it. "Luckily for us, I'm well-versed in Drow sign language" even sounds like the kind of line a stereotypical 60s superhero would utter when pulling new powers out of nowhere.

...That said, it doesn't bother me much. The "Tarquin is unbeatable" argument is pretty hard to buy when he just ran for it.

Exactly. I understand all the arguments against it, but if Tarquin was unbeatable, he would have put his axe through Belkar's head and strangled Roy with one hand while catching Haley's arrows with the other.

[jere7my]

I hate to get involved in another argument about Tarquin - especially since it's actually reached the point where I dislike his hatedom more then his fandom - but I have to say that I think people are missing the reason why people are objecting to him knowing Drow Sign Language. It's not that it made a crucial difference in the LG's escape, or that it's implausible, or that they don't get the joke. It's the way how he's once again pulled out some never-before-mentioned ability right when he needed it. "Luckily for us, I'm well-versed in Drow sign language" even sounds like the kind of line a stereotypical 60s superhero would utter when pulling new powers out of nowhere.

Well, his schtick is that he's annoyingly overcompetent and unflappable. He's the kind of character who's always spotless and perfectly dressed while the hero's clothes are torn and bloodstained, who solves problems the heroes have been banging their heads against by lightly saying, "Oh, I speak Maasai. Step aside." It leaves the heroes dumbfounded and enraged and frustrated, and if the writer is doing their job it leaves the reader feeling the same way. Which is great, imho.

All I'm saying is that the sign language was not so much a way for him to escape as a way to do it without losing his cool. There were half a dozen other ways for Rich to get them out of there — Zz'd'tri could've taken the initiative and cast teleport on his own, for instance. But then the strip wouldn't've played into Tarquin's schtick.

[Kish]

Ugh, I hate that I'm getting drawn into a rhetorical debate here. For the record, I'm not bothered by Tarquin knowing drow sign language.

However: "Tarquin ran for it, therefore he is beatable" presupposes that he wants to beat the Order and that "Tarquin crushes the Order single-handed while the Linear Guild lies defeated around him" is something Tarquin would consider a desirable outcome, rather than a disaster on par with the chess board tipping over while watching an interesting match. Not only do I not think that's guaranteed, I don't even actually think it's terribly likely. He chose the option that resulted in neither of his sons dying and lets him watch Nale clash with Elan again in the future.

[Winter]

A broken pattern could very well be significant. I'm reminded of the complaints about Thog's rally in the arena pit against Roy. Thog never had a finer hour, but that just wound up making Roy look all the better in the end.

Well, that does not have anything to do with my opinion on this here, I guess.


We've spent a few strips watch the Order execute a brutally effective ambush. Since this isn't actually a game, however, the mastermind who's manipulated nations for decades did what he should be expected to do: get out of there with the same sort of efficiency that kept him alive when he lost his own throne.

I'm not following this reasoning. If I did, we had to consider Tarquin unbeatable (because he has not been beaten in the last decades). Obviously, "having not been beaten yesterday" does not have to mean "cannot be beaten today or tomorrow".


As satisfying as it might be to see them beaten down, the Linear Guild is still just a side show, dangling on the strings of more ambitious and capable enemies.

They fought and escaped. Again. And Again. And Again. And agaaain. This time in the very same way Nale escaped last (Nale defeated and teleports out).
This is the reason why I dislike the ability to teleport. It takes the punch from an enemy finding you, you finding an enemy, travel distance, or a win. The enemy can just teleport out which is a pretty lame Deus Ex Magica, something that can ruin quite a lot in D&D (and stories) if done wrongly.
This here seems just like it (to you, you might disagree, which is fine).


With all that's happening (with Malack and V, with Quarr or Sabine likely to be making a report to their patrons, and with a kobold breaking the recurring thread of dying soon after encountering the Order), I'm certain we're about to see somehting world-shaking on centre stage. I think we'll get a much better show if this prelude of chaos is not resolved before it seizes the spotlight.

I'm not doubting that. My issue here is I think "Nale escaping with whatever LG he has now" is at least two encounters over it's date of expiry. I said so last time (yes, I know that escape lead to the current setup, but I think it was still somewhat lame) and I think it just got worse it happend again (this is independent of what might come soon).
This fight changes things? That is very fine... but does it have to be another "magic teleport out"? Just gripping for "some magic teleport spell" is, imo, the lamest possible way to dissolve an suspenseful encounter (which is no offense to The Giant, the comic in general is still awesome) to keep the parties "in the game" for what's to come.

I'm not thinking "what" happens is bad. I just dislike "how" it happens in the light of that it just did happen in the very sane way and that it's not the first time Nale popped out.

Never mind, this is getting blown up way bigger than it actually is...

[Brom]

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.

Tarquin displaying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) that he has a more than passing familiarity with the Drow, to the point where he thinks he would be a conceivable ally to them, and has no surprise at seeing them show up without warning. Sending fruit baskets sounds kind of like an obscure background joke to me. I'd say Chekov's gun just went off. It was like a pocket popper, but yeah.


I'm sorry, but the fog curtain "luckily" disappearing on the very same round Tarquin's "lucky" ability to communicate non-verbally to (lucky!) specifically the drow race crosses way too high the line to me.

Now, I consider myself a bit of a tactician. I tend to do what Tarquin does in gaming groups - be crazy prepared and organize the party, help plan battles. If I were in possession of a form of nonverbal communication - which all my characters are, usually several, my last wizard had trained the party to speak a sign language, a cipher, know a code based on color combinations with dancing lights, carry papers with pre-written generally advisable directives to pull out of a handy haversack (of which 'Teleport,' was actually one, we worked it out so that it would have a heading like, 'Retreat' and then a bullet point menu where you point to the bullet you want the party to use, listing every option that could be explained in three or fewer words), - I would wait until visual obstructions, such as smoke, cleared away before using a method of communication that was purely visual.

Beyond that very simple explanation, if I were Tarquin in command, I might actually be willing to see what came of things for a little while, but the point where I see enemies attempting to Coup De Grace and I'm one of the last ones standing, and we lose the only battlefield tactical advantage we arguably had (concealment), it's time to bug out. Before I could have at least known casters and other ranged attackers lacked line of sight, maybe held out for Malack to regroup, but once a clear line of fire like that is had, and I can see that we lack mummy meatshields, my next fear is losing every single member of my party to arrow-based coup de grace. A paralyzed party member is flat footed and sneak attacked, an incapacitated one just needs a single arrow to be finished, and the wizard is getting its butt handed to it by arrows fired blindly, much less arrows fired directly at it. Time to go.

As for it making sense for Tarquin to know it? Did you read my post on the top of the third page? Or just read this one. Nonverbal communication has many uses:

- Communicating in front of people you don't want to understand you in a code even an Angel's persisted Tongues does nothing to understand if they lack line of sight.
- Carrying on a verbal conversation obviously and a nonverbal one under the table, less obviously than passing notes or shifting vocally into obscure languages.
- Communicating with individuals who are stalking a target with you, or with individuals sharing a hiding place with you.
- Communicating while deafened, such as by a common item like a Thunderstone, a common spell accessible to 3rd level Wizards/Clerics like Blindness/Deafness, communicating in spite of many Bardic spells with deafness as a consequence due to so many sonic descriptors, and generally communicating in light of the vast majority of spells that can deafen.
- Communicating in spite of horrible background noise, like a thunderstorm with pouring rain and howling winds, a melee between giants in the background, a castle under seige where catapults are striking it, in spite of being in a place like a forge where blacksmiths are hammering away.
- Communicating when you've deliberately made yourself unable to hear readily, such as your camp Alarm spell going off, traveling after your Cleric has put a Silence spell on the group to make stealth up to a certain distance possible, allowing your caster to communicate after being silenced by an enemy cleric, or after filling the area with sound such as Bardic Music, the Ghost Sound spell, Ventriloquism spell, Major Image in some instances...
- Communicating with the deaf, as with ASL.
- Using the fact that sophisticated gestures can be indistinguishable from the beginnings of a spell with somantic components to those who only have a passing familiarity with magic.
- Communicating when there's a need to hold your breath, such as underwater or in an airtight place where suffocation is a concern, or a place where breathing would be harmful, like in smoke. This can singlehandedly enable underwater looting where you would otherwise need to have a caster powerful enough to provide telepathy.
- Communicating over distances where you can be seen but not easily heard, such as with a telescope.
- Providing subordinates with a way to do all of the above, vastly improving their efficiency and utility.
- Identifying traitors by the way that communications you made entirely in sign language have been intercepted and used by enemies.
- If the language is known to a somewhat large group of dangerous individuals, being able to identify them even if they are disguised by the communication they use, and being able to comprehend their plotting.
- Being able to communicate after your jailor has cut your tongue out for antagonizing him wittily (no, I don't have personal experience here, why do you ask?) Or when imprisoned and gagged, for that matter (gagging everyone is good general practice when capturing groups. Why? To prevent them from collaborating the moment your back is turned).
- Being able to communicate despite hiding from creatures that hunt based on sound.
- Being able to communicate while in caves where sound would echo and carry.
- Testing the perceptiveness of those around you.
- Misleading others aloud while saying something else with your fingers (DM may require skill checks :P).

The story behind these uses, by the way? In short, I was young, 12-14 or something, I grew up on R.A. Salvatore's Icewind Dale and David E. Eddings' Belgariad/Mallorean volumes (the dude reminds you why tropes deserve to be used so much). Both of these volumes frequently had characters and even whole story arcs that were heavily influenced by the capability of characters to sign. In addition, at that age, the ability to communicate in secret was an illicit thrill just because. I was into the idea of cryptology, sign, invisible ink, whatever. So then I got into D&D, had a Fighter who had a military background with commando aspirations, and thought, "It's only two skill points. If it sucks and never comes up, not like I lost much."

Wow. I never would have realized how useful it is. Because it's one of the most useful buys you can get for two skill points. Most of the situations above that I listed as examples, I list because I actually played through 'em.

I think I've kind of proved a point. I hope you'll forgive me, if, to me personally, the gripe that it's 'just luck,' for Tarquin to cover this wide base seems inaccurate.

[kickassfrog]

I thought Belkar didn't try to kill the other PCs' nemeses now.
I must say, having 2 comics has really made my week all the better.
Albeit still wanting to see more.
Curse you giant, with your efficient and highly enchanting storytelling!

[Deepbluediver]

This is a player meta-gaming a character to the fullest extend of the effectiveness of a character.
This is not, in any way, a well-rounded, believable character in/for a story.

Xykon might be as "powerful", but he's not coming over as "Perfect Superman Without The Weakness For Kryptonite". Xykon has lots of levels and power, but he's all in all a character I buy. Tarquin by now seems more like a bridge to me.

Assuming that a character living in the OotS world could obtain all the knowledge that a D&D player does, who shouldn't they use it to their advantage? Especially one as smart as Tarquin. The Order would have more options to shut him down, except half of their main casting team is AWOL.

I compared Tarquin to Xykon, because both seem to be too powerful for the Order to seriously endanger, and they are both frequently far more in control than they let on. During the Azure City Ark, Xykon took some risky chances flying into a paladin-infested city by himself, and didn't bail until he'd been nearly killed (don't start with the undeath thing). As I said, Tarquin is more cautious, and he just decided to bail before the risky situation (which had deteriorated from good, to bad, and rapidly heading into FUBAR) got him killed. It's not that he's invincible, it's just that he doesn't let himself get into the same sort of perilous situations that the other characters do.

Tarquin is also busy single-handedly running a con operation on half a contintent, so unlike Roy, he can't afford to be out of operation for a few months; it makes sense to me that he'd do everything he could to avoid shuffling off the mortal coil. Frankly, I think it's refreshing to see a character who is smart enough to recognize his own flaws and not let his actions be dictated by a set of near-crippling neurosisies. (I think it would be easier to list the characters in the comic WITHOUT severe psycological issues than those with, although a few have gotten better over time.)
Well-rounded characters are nice, but if they only way you can move the story forward is to have all the participants act like the cheerleader in a slasher-flick, that's not good writing either.

[Palthera]

Kind of makes me wonder what bonus languages Roy has...

[Shatteredtower]

Well, that does not have anything to do with my opinion on this here, I guess.

I'd have thought it was obvious. The pattern has always been: Linear Guild gets away, but kobold dies. Every other member of the group has survived the encounter, but not the kobold.

For once, the kobold has escaped. For once, Guild members were not imprisoned before escaping or otherwise securing release. (Nale's encounter with his father counts.) If it hasn't played out by the numbers thus far, why assume it's going to now that they've been rescued from the field?

People typically have a good reason for breaking pattern.


I'm not following this reasoning. If I did, we had to consider Tarquin unbeatable (because he has not been beaten in the last decades). Obviously, "having not been beaten yesterday" does not have to mean "cannot be beaten today or tomorrow".

No, we don't have to consider him unbeatable. We should, however, consider that a guy with decades of experience on Roy ought to be difficult to beat. His showboating performance wasn't enough to demonstrate that as well as his reaction to being outplayed by the younger leader in round two.


This is the reason why I dislike the ability to teleport. It takes the punch from an enemy finding you, you finding an enemy, travel distance, or a win. The enemy can just teleport out which is a pretty lame Deus Ex Magica, something that can ruin quite a lot in D&D (and stories) if done wrongly.

Often, the problem is that people want to write a story ill-suited to the powers available to their characters. To tell those stories, you wind up with contrivances such as V having conjuration as a barred school, or the transporters on the Enterprise being down for maintenance again.

The problem with teleport in D&D comes down to how the rules were too well defined for it and its countermeasures, leaving people who do not want it in their game the choice of rewriting it or banning it. The game could have been better served with more flexible options for setting the strength of that and a few other spells. Some games thrive on having an infinite-lane bypass to everywhere. Others are better served by removing the option, or at least forcing it into the court of last resort. Most find a balance somewhere in between.

The rules never accounted for that, instead favouring a playing style ill-suited to many of the supposed inspirations for the game.

However, here we've got Roy mentioning the countermeasure, a spell available to Durkon (even if he doesn't currently have it prepared). After finally delivering holy word after several false starts, we've got more than enough reason to believe that this avenue of escape isn't going to be available for much longer.

Up until now, Roy (nor any on his team) have mentioned the off-switch for teleport. Its use before that would seem contrived to anyone that didn't play games like D&D, since it is a contrivance. Still, once its established that the option exists and is available to the Order, its use is much easier to justify.

It may seem unfair to apply this doubled standard between the Order of the Stick and Tarquin. It's not. We've been following the former's progress for over 850 strips, the majority of their successful (and less successful) adventuring days. We've seen Tarquin a lot less, during an insignificant amount of time as measured against the entirety of his experience. It's expected that we should have a good idea of what Roy's group can do at this point, just as we should expect to spend most of our time with Tarquin catching up on what he can do.

[Mantine]

Now, I consider myself a bit of a tactician. I tend to do what Tarquin does in gaming groups - be crazy prepared and organize the party, help plan battles. If I were in possession of a form of nonverbal communication - which all my characters are, usually several, my last wizard had trained the party to speak a sign language, a cipher, know a code based on color combinations with dancing lights, carry papers with pre-written generally advisable directives to pull out of a handy haversack (of which 'Teleport,' was actually one, we worked it out so that it would have a heading like, 'Retreat' and then a bullet point menu where you point to the bullet you want the party to use, listing every option that could be explained in three or fewer words), - I would wait until visual obstructions, such as smoke, cleared away before using a method of communication that was purely visual.

I know, right? And that's exactly my point, the fact that Tarquin happened to have just the perfect ability at hand to deal with a deafened drow wizard, but which is rendered useless by a smoke cl- oh nevermind, lucky! It just went off.

There will always be "explanations" behind a DE, checkov's gun or whatever other plot tool, the point here is not that what happened is unbelievable or impossible, but that it's so overly convenient that it reaches the point of breaking my suspension of disbelief.

[Peelee]

I know, right? And that's exactly my point, the fact that Tarquin happened to have just the perfect ability at hand to deal with a deafened drow wizard, but which is rendered useless by a smoke cl- oh nevermind, lucky! It just went off.

There will always be "explanations" behind a DE, checkov's gun or whatever other plot tool, the point here is not that what happened is unbelievable or impossible, but that it's so overly convenient that it reaches the point of breaking my suspension of disbelief.

So again, that the smoke has been noticeably decreasing over the last two strips and is very noticeably decreasing in almost every panel in the current strip is breaking your suspension of disbelief?

[Smolder]

It's not as if Z has been porting around like Nightcrawler, using it as a lazy replacement for walking. Z is constrained by spell slots. Therefore, so is Teleport. So unless Z used multiple spell slots for it, he was probably saving Teleport for exactly this scenario and only this scenario.

[Anarion]

Interesting comic. I'm going to avoid the current discussion about suspension of disbelief, and just note that I found the drow innuendo fairly amusing and good as a joke.

I really liked some of the effects in this comic. the image of the spinning axe, the way that Nale clearly looks like a sack of potatoes draped over a shoulder, even in stick art, and Roy's various sword poses have all been really good. By the way, I wonder if the whumwhumwhum sound effect implies that the axe is magically thrumming in some way, or if it's just supposed to be a spinning sound?

I'm not sure how much healing Tarquin has access to at the moment. Malack isn't with them. While I suspect Tarquin has plenty of healing potions or effects for himself, I'm not so sure that he'll share them with Nale, as opposed to allowing events to continue and waking Nale up later.

I also imagine that Malack alone meeting the order would not end up in a fight. He would chat with Durkon, explain that he doesn't care about what the rest of the Linear Guild is doing and has no desire to fight the Order, and probably part ways amicably.

[Brom]

I know, right? And that's exactly my point, the fact that Tarquin happened to have just the perfect ability at hand to deal with a deafened drow wizard, but which is rendered useless by a smoke cl- oh nevermind, lucky! It just went off.

There will always be "explanations" behind a DE, checkov's gun or whatever other plot tool, the point here is not that what happened is unbelievable or impossible, but that it's so overly convenient that it reaches the point of breaking my suspension of disbelief.

I'm starting to think that what I said is being interpreted in whatever way fits the argument currently being made.

The point I made was twofold. The first is that Tarquin didn't pull sign language out of nwohere, it simply wasn't usable until the smoke cleared. The second point I made was that Tarquin was actually able to stick it out and see what happened until the smoke cleared and he no longer had concealment. As evidenced by how he stuck it out and waited to see what happened until the smoke cleared.

The smoke clearing didn't coincide conveniently with Tarquin's retreat. The smoke clearing was the reason Tarquin retreated in the first place. Trying to state that the plot is defending Tarquin by having smoke clear when he wants to escape is a misinterpretation of what was seen in my opinion, both as a reader and as someone who's imagined the scenario playing out from Tarquin's perspective.

Examine the scenario Tarquin is dealing with when the smoke is blocking Haley's shots and the enemy has no clear targest to charge. Then consider it once concealment clears and Tarquin, plus an injured, deafened Drow Wizard remain the only ones standing. The smoke clearing was bad. It was time to leave.

Not only that, but I'd like to get a good look at my enemy before I retreat, to better take stock of what just happened and what comparative damages were.

Tarquin used sign language at that time because it was now an option, and it was an option because he was going to wait for smoke to clear before he retreated anyways. Had the smoke not cleared, I doubt he would have Teleported out, because the need would not have been as drastic as it was, and he also wouldn't have used Sign, because he couldn't.

[jere7my]

I know, right? And that's exactly my point, the fact that Tarquin happened to have just the perfect ability at hand to deal with a deafened drow wizard, but which is rendered useless by a smoke cl- oh nevermind, lucky! It just went off.

The sign language wouldn't've been affected by the smoke cloud, at least not after the first round or so. Close up, they've been able to see each other just fine for a few strips now.

[Purgatorius]

To those who say that the Order didn't gain anything:
Tarquin lost his axe before he teleported out. What if his name is written on it ("To Tarquin with love from [name of wife]"). Then they will know who is behind the mask.
Does Tarquin have any weakness? What could be a potential weakness is that he cares a lot about Elan. That could be the beginning of a new plan.

[THeBigZ]

Alright now i'm starting to get worried... Where is Elan?! We haven't seen him since 855!!!

[Yendor]

I also imagine that Malack alone meeting the order would not end up in a fight. He would chat with Durkon, explain that he doesn't care about what the rest of the Linear Guild is doing and has no desire to fight the Order, and probably part ways amicably.
I don't think Malack has much interest in fighting the Order, but it won't be that simple. I can't see them just letting him go like that. The other possibility is that Malack meets up with Vaarsuvius, who doesn't seem in the mood to fight either.

[stsasser]

It is beautifully drawn, but how many revolutions does Tarquin's axe make in the air? The four 'whumm's would seem to indicate four full revolutions, but it only appears to be about 1 1/3?

Nice 'KTHUNK!', though.:belkar:

[Canisius]

HOORAY!!

What a satisfying comic.. seems like it's been a while since the OOTS have had the upper hand in an encounter.

Yes, I realize the fecal matter will surely soon hit the rotating cooling device, but it's still a nice bit of catharsis after all the suspense.

Thanks, Rich.:smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

And once again we see why wizards are considered so ridiculously overpowered in 3e D&D! All it takes is one spell to completely negate an entire ambush.

[Stiletto]

And once again we see why wizards are considered so ridiculously overpowered in 3e D&D! All it takes is one spell to completely negate an entire ambush.

Question is: do they still get the experience points?

[raymundo]

Blah, blah, blah..

I blame myself for being so very annoyed by random people on the internet being so angry about Tarquin finding oh-so-"convenient"-"deus ex machinistic" ways to resolve this situation.. And their subtle sarcasm is so smart, too.

It'd be very disappointing, if it wasn't for the (vast?) majority of this community - which is pretty neutral and objective.

Love,
Ray

[theNater]

I don't think Malack has much interest in fighting the Order, but it won't be that simple. I can't see them just letting him go like that. The other possibility is that Malack meets up with Vaarsuvius, who doesn't seem in the mood to fight either.
Why wouldn't the Order let Malack go? He has yet to make an overt move against them, or to be shown as an ally of someone who has. There may be questions about his presence in the pyramid, but that can be explained away as a pursuit of Nale.

[Gift Jeraff]

Why wouldn't the Order let Malack go? He has yet to make an overt move against them, or to be shown as an ally of someone who has. There may be questions about his presence in the pyramid, but that can be explained away as a pursuit of Nale.

Haley has always been suspicious of Malack and Tarquin. They may not jump to the conclusion that Malack's in cahoots with Nale, but it's reasonable to assume that Tarquin has taken interest in whatever the Order and Guild are after.

[WindStruck]

Where is Xykon when you need him to crash a big pile of ceiling rubble on an unsuspecting elf's head?

[Bengui]

I'm getting a bit tired of Gary Sue over there...

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm getting a bit tired of Gary Sue over there...

He's not a Gary Sue. :smallannoyed:








He's a Gary Stu.

[Mantine]

So again, that the smoke has been noticeably decreasing over the last two strips and is very noticeably decreasing in almost every panel in the current strip is breaking your suspension of disbelief?

No, and that's not what I'm saying.

What breaks my suspension of disbelief is the sheer coincidental luck of many different things happening (or being revealed) all the right time, perfectly fitting for that exact situation... not the single individual things.
Try reading the meaning behind the words, rather than the words alone.

[The Pilgrim]

The Axe will probably have some returning device. It's Tarquin we are talking about.

Well, what now? Now that Tarquin has used the Linear Gild as a probe to test the Order, is it time for him to gather his gang and work for real on the good guys?

[The Pilgrim]

The Axe will probably have some returning device. It's Tarquin we are talking about.

Well, what now? Now that Tarquin has used the Linear Gild as a probe to test the Order, is it time for him to gather his gang and work for real on the good guys?

[Smolder]

No, and that's not what I'm saying.

What breaks my suspension of disbelief is the sheer coincidental luck of many different things happening (or being revealed) all the right time, perfectly fitting for that exact situation... not the single individual things.
Try reading the meaning behind the words, rather than the words alone.

I've got to respect your persistence. But it is more than adequately explained by the comic itself. The key line is "You're too young to remember, but [Drow sign language] was quite the fad in its day." Drow sign language is a real D&D thing, not something Rich made up. It really was a fad back in the day (I confess to being old enough to remember), much like drow themselves.

Tarquin could have used any number of other ways to signal "let's get out of here." Tarquin chose drow sign language because it was showy and made him look cool. Rich chose drow sign language because it was funny.

[Gnoman]

Up until now, Roy (nor any on his team) have mentioned the off-switch for teleport. Its use before that would seem contrived to anyone that didn't play games like D&D, since it is a contrivance. Still, once its established that the option exists and is available to the Order, its use is much easier to justify.


V has used Dimensional Anchor on multiple occasions. The only reason that Durkon didn't have it prepared is because V does, so they "optimized" by comparing spell slots and avoiding duplication, thus ensuring that they had a wider range of spells available.

[Shred-Bot]

I wondered about that too. "Kobold" I can understand. Drow should have the sign for them. But accountant? Given as the most plausable purpose of the language seems to be the silent communication before the battle, how many times before in Drow history the word "accountant" came up in pre-combat chat? :smallamused:

Spoken like someone who has never been on a Drow corporate retreat. Let's just say they do more than drop you on purpose during the trust fall.

[zimmerwald1915]

V has used Dimensional Anchor on multiple occasions. The only reason that Durkon didn't have it prepared is because V does, so they "optimized" by comparing spell slots and avoiding duplication, thus ensuring that they had a wider range of spells available.
Really, with the amount of times V's gone AWOL, one would think that either Durkon or Elan or Roy would have begun to plan around her absence. I won't be disappointed, exactly, if they don't learn from this experience, but I won't be surprised either.

[Chess Tyrant]

I'm just posting to mention that I don't find Tarquin's knowledge of drow sign language in any way a strain on my suspension of disbelief. In fact, quite the opposite: Tarquin has had decades to plan and prepare for significant battles. It's not merely completely reasonable for him to have a vast array of weapons, powers, tools and tricks at his disposal - it'd be downright preposterous for him to not.

To put it another way - consider what your D&D character would do in their spare time if they were in Tarquin's position - a lot of political scheming and noncombat encounters, months or years going by without a major battle, but the constant assurance of more fighting down the road. (Plus, the resources of an entire empire at your disposal.) If you're at all like me, you'd spend your extra time building dozens of contingency plans, crafting/buying really good, multipurpose magic items, and generally making sure you're prepared for whatever the world will throw at you next.

[vrellum]

I just gotta say that I do enjoy the cartoons more when they reference DnD.

[Incom]

Coming from the perspective of someone not so familiar with DnD minutiae, I must say the DSW line had me going "Really?" until I saw people in here explaining it. Makes much more sense now.

[Mantine]

I've got to respect your persistence. But it is more than adequately explained by the comic itself. The key line is "You're too young to remember, but [Drow sign language] was quite the fad in its day." Drow sign language is a real D&D thing, not something Rich made up. It really was a fad back in the day (I confess to being old enough to remember), much like drow themselves.

So, after having just said that it's not the individual things themselves that feel wrong, but the overall coincidence of all of them right then when they were most needed, and yet again you pick and explain one of those to me? :smallconfused:

Even after having already said this,

There will always be "explanations" behind a DE, checkov's gun or whatever other plot tool, the point here is not that what happened is unbelievable or impossible, but that it's so overly convenient that it reaches the point of breaking my suspension of disbelief.

Which pretty clearly states how anything can be explained some way or the other, but that doesn't automatically make it believable and plausible? :smallconfused:


Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.

[Smolder]

Which pretty clearly states how anything can be explained some way or the other, but that doesn't automatically make it believable and plausible? :smallconfused:


Again, having a sound explanation for something, by definition, makes it plausible. If it was orc sign language, a pure contrivance of plot convenience, I would be agreeing with you. But it is not. It is a concrete reference to something that exists both in the OOTSverse and RL.



Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.

Which is why I said believable is subjective. You can choose to believe something regardless of the amount of evidence for or against it.

[ti'esar]

plausible

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[WindStruck]

So, after having just said that it's not the individual things themselves that feel wrong, but the overall coincidence of all of them right then when they were most needed, and yet again you pick and explain one of those to me? :smallconfused:

Even after having already said this,


Which pretty clearly states how anything can be explained some way or the other, but that doesn't automatically make it believable and plausible? :smallconfused:


Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.

No, I think a month's worth of clear and coherent strips would get anyone to buy that the enterprise really did just blow up Xykon. Whether or not it may be "believable" isn't the issue... the real issue is how satisfying the story is.

But speaking of the latest "ass pull" by Tarquin, I have already mentioned how I believe closer ties to the drow were hinted when he said he was sending them gift baskets due to him knowing about Drizz't impersonating an elf ambassador.

[oppyu]

Tarquin fandom: Yes, your guy really is that awesome and crazy prepared. Be joyful.

Tarquin hatedom: Xykon is coming. Be joyful.

[the_tick_rules]

I wonder if OOTS gets any xp for this?

[Chess Tyrant]

I wonder if OOTS gets any xp for this?

As long as they 'defeated' the new LG, they do get xp for them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html)

One could argue whether they really 'defeated' Tarquin, Malak, Zz'dtri and Quarr, but they'll definitely get xp for Nale and Kilkil.

[willpell]

And Sabine. (Though really, it's a fault of the rules that anyone but Durkon and maybe Haley is entitled to XP for that.)

[Stella]

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.C'mon... Tarquin is the foil to Roy that Thog could never be. Thog is just a STR based Berserker. Tarquin is a smart Fighter, probably single classed just as is Roy, and also probably higher level. Roy beat the simpleton Thog by using the cross-class skill of Knowledge:Architecture, FerThor'sSake. Tarquin, OTOH, is an intelligent, charismatic Fighter with a huge pile of non-optimal Feats (and probably skills) based upon his INT and CHA which he uses to excellent effect in a game setting where optimization is quite typically (and frankly, boringly) king.

So count me in as a Tarquin fangirl. I prefer a character who achieves victory via the use of non-traditional Feats and tactics over a single-minded focus on some "char-ops" build that Roy needs to walk off a cliff to defeat (cannot find the "half-ogre, reach plus spiked-chain" comic to cite here, damnit).


PS: I never bought into the theory that Malack would join the OotS. Malack seems much too aligned with Tarquin to betray him in that manner.

[theNater]

Haley has always been suspicious of Malack and Tarquin. They may not jump to the conclusion that Malack's in cahoots with Nale, but it's reasonable to assume that Tarquin has taken interest in whatever the Order and Guild are after.
While that is one of the possible reasonable assumptions, it does not inherently put Malack in opposition to the Order. So the question remains.

[Sorator]

I'm just gonna throw out that tropes are not bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools) - sometimes, the Deus Ex Machina gets presented as such because there was no reason to explain it earlier in the story. It's not necessarily lazy writing, and I'm willing to give Rich the benefit of the doubt in this case.


As long as they 'defeated' the new LG, they do get xp for them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html)

One could argue whether they really 'defeated' Tarquin, Malak, Zz'dtri and Quarr, but they'll definitely get xp for Nale and Kilkil.


And Sabine. (Though really, it's a fault of the rules that anyone but Durkon and maybe Haley is entitled to XP for that.)

And Tarquin & Z - in the example linked, the chimera was about to make a tactical retreat, but they were still going to get XP for defeating it. Probably not anything for Malack or Qarr, though.

[raymundo]

Probably not anything for Malack or Qarr, though.

That'd be too bad, because the rule for gaining XP for "overcoming challenges" instead of "killing stuff" is intended to encourage kill-less solutions, isn't it? Not granting XP for Qarr and Malack because they cut them off would undermine this intention.

And the Giant would strike me as a person who, if this actually was a game of D&D, would enforce this. But that's just my point of view, of course

[weeping eagle]

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.In real life, he could've as easily conveyed his command with *point, point, point, point*, *waves pointing finger in big circles over his head* (or *flick-splays fingers on both hands*, or whatever).

It's not a Deus Ex Machina. It's a joke.

[Chantelune]

And once again we see why wizards are considered so ridiculously overpowered in 3e D&D! All it takes is one spell to completely negate an entire ambush.

Well, first action from any mage on the ambushing side is "dimensional anchor". Unless you want to let them a chance to escape, but even in that case, it's better to let them find a more dangerous way (like flying or running).

The ambushing side don't have any caster able to do so ? It's not well prepared enough.


In real life, he could've as easily conveyed his command with *point, point, point, point*, *waves pointing finger in big circles over his head* (or *flick-splays fingers on both hands*, or whatever).

It's not a Deus Ex Machina. It's a joke.

That or use the ol'good "write on paper what I want to say".

There were a bunch of way for Tarquin to give the drow that order. I doubt him knowing drow sign langage will end up being as critical as most people seem to think.

Oh, and I love how Tarquin determines Nale's consciousness based on his love of his own voice. :smallbiggrin:

[Bundin]

After my first reading I though "that sure is anti-climactic, howmany easy escapes are going to prolong this drawn out storyline?"

After the second reading, I realised that I haven't seen where they ended up though. "Out of the frying pan, into the fire" is very much an option here. If they end up somewhere safe, able to regroup/recover then yes, it'll be another boring escape from the LG. But I'll hold off judgement until I've seen the next few comics though :) Can't judge a story-writing decision without seeing at least part of the followup happenings.

[Amarsir]

Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."

Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.C'mon... Tarquin is the foil to Roy that Thog could never be. Thog is just a STR based Berserker. Tarquin is a smart Fighter, probably single classed just as is Roy, and also probably higher level. Roy beat the simpleton Thog by using the cross-class skill of Knowledge:Architecture, FerThor'sSake. Tarquin, OTOH, is an intelligent, charismatic Fighter with a huge pile of non-optimal Feats (and probably skills) based upon his INT and CHA which he uses to excellent effect in a game setting where optimization is quite typically (and frankly, boringly) king.
I just want to say I think these are both excellent points.

[FujinAkari]

I like this comic, but I'm sure a lot of people are going to grumble about Tarquin knowing Drow-cant or whatever its called, despite how rationally its explained :P

*also remembers the 2E days where a bloody drow was all but required in amy gaming group*

Looks like I was slightly off base... while I was right that people would unreasonably grumble about Drow-cant, I really didn't think there would be so many people to demonstrate such a thorough lack of understanding about what Deus Ex Machina means.

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine... and I've posted this before, but people are getting it nearly CRIMINALLY wrong at this point.

Deus Ex Machina is defined as:
any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.

While typically it is reserved for a device that SOLVES the problems and moves the story into its conclusion, that isn't an inherent part of its definition, so I will be skipping that for now.

1) Drow Cant isn't a device. Deus Ex Machina explicitly refers to a device, some invention or creation abruptly able to undo whatever problems the characters are encountering in order to let them triumph at a point where all hope seemed to be lost.

2) Drow Cant didn't resolve any difficulties for the heroes. The Heroes were ALREADY WINNING. This is probably the greatest and most offensive misuse of the term, in my eyes. Deus Ex Machina has a very explicit and context-specific meaning, but a lot of people seem to start throwing it around blindly any time anything happens which they don't like.

3) Drow Cant didn't even cause anything to happen! It was totally irrelevant. As mentioned, Tarquin had about eight other ways he could have communicated his message, but Rich went with the one that delivered humor. It really says something about the irrationality of the hatred for Tarquin that a strip can be published and, rather than being upset that a Wizard who has never been shown to have Teleport before abruptly has the exact spell needed to get the LG out of a losing battle, people instead complain that the general whose nation borders a Drow kingdom happens to know the Drow language.

*fume*

Sorry... but seriously... if you aren't going to use terms correctly, consider not using them... it only makes your argument look weaker.

[factotum]

people instead complain that the general whose nation borders a Drow kingdom happens to know the Drow language.


Does it? :smallconfused: I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.

[Emperordaniel]

Does it? :smallconfused: I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.

Kingdoms; that's a plural right there. Drow are a subtype of elf, thus it is not unreasonable to assume that their territory is somewhere within the generic area labeled "The Elven Kingdoms". :smallwink:

[Smolder]

Kingdoms; that's a plural right there. Drow are a subtype of elf, thus it is not unreasonable to assume that their territory is somewhere within the generic area labeled "The Elven Kingdoms". :smallwink:

Actually, it wouldn't be very reasonable since a) the dark elves usually live underground while surface elves prefer arboreal themes and b) the dark elves usually hate surface elves more than any others.

Maybe she meant every kingdom borders the dark elves' domain by virtue of being on the surface.

[lio45]

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine... and I've posted this before, but people are getting it nearly CRIMINALLY wrong at this point.

Just to add, a good example from the strip (and V later even used the very term to refer to that event) would be when Xykon's zombie dragon head falls straight on the Xykon Decoy that was about to roast V.




Does it? :smallconfused: I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.

Every nation in the world vertically borders Drow territory.

;)

[le Suisse]

I am now wondering if there's any young genre savvy half-drow out here. Am I the only one?

[t209]

I am now wondering if there's any young genre savvy half-drow out here. Am I the only one?
So, she'll be a good role playing character in never winter nights 2.

[Mantine]

No, I think a month's worth of clear and coherent strips would get anyone to buy that the enterprise really did just blow up Xykon.

For me it wouldn't. Again, suspension of disbelief.

[zimmerwald1915]

Every nation in the world vertically borders Drow territory.
That's an enormous concession! We must never forget that every nation in the world unjustly occupies Drow territory.

[Mantine]

Again, having a sound explanation for something, by definition, makes it plausible.
It makes it possible, not plausible.
Some old unknown ally suddenly appearing on the battleground and saving T is plausible.
An amulet of teleport being drawn there by a powerful tornado bouncing all the way there along a secret air duct and then falling into T's hands may be "soundly explained", but certainly not plausible.

Just because something can be explained it doesn't automatically make it buyable.


Which is why I said believable is subjective. You can choose to believe something regardless of the amount of evidence for or against it.
If I find said amount of evidence to be evanescent at best, sure.

[Smolder]

Just because something can be explained it doesn't automatically make it buyable.



Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.

If, as you have said, a month's worth of explanation in the comic wouldn't be enough for you to "buy" something, then nothing in the OOTSverse is buyable by your definition. Rich is never going to spend a month explaining something, nor would that be entertaining in any way.

[The Second]

Hmm...

He's never surprised. Not even when he's surprised.

He sends fruit baskets to the Drow. Just in case.

He doesn't change his plans, his plans change for him.

He uses escaped slaves to construct one-hundred foot tall birthday messages for his sons.

He appreciates the value of a good spear.

His people don't respect him out of fear, they fear him out of respect.

His plan B has a plan B.

People never return his gifts (well, except for Elan, but that's a special case).

By Jove, I've got it! Taquin IS the most interesting man in the world.

[FujinAkari]

Does it? :smallconfused: I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.

Eh... possibly... though if Tarquin thinks the Drow may be seeking a military alliance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) doesn't that imply that the Drow military would be relatively nearby?

Edit: Additionally, classic D&D holds that the Drow are a dark sect of elves driven underground by some past conflict, so it does make sense that if the Elven Kingdoms are here, the Drow are going to be here as well. My point remains that it is a bit shortsighted to be surprised that Tarquin knows the language of one of the few groups he -doesn't- control and actually has to keep tabs on!

[Kish]

Eh... possibly... though if Tarquin thinks the Drow may be seeking a military alliance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) doesn't that preclude the Drow military being relatively nearby?
I think you mean "require."

[Mantine]

If, as you have said, a month's worth of explanation in the comic wouldn't be enough for you to "buy" something, then nothing in the OOTSverse is buyable by your definition. Rich is never going to spend a month explaining something, nor would that be entertaining in any way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

[FujinAkari]

I think you mean "require."

Glancing at a dictionary, you appear to be correct. Odd, I apparently learned the definition of that word incorrectly!

Thanks Kish :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Like Sarcasm, Hyperbole relies largely on tone of voice and facial expression and is generally best not employed via a textual medium such as forums :P

[Brom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase

[joca4christ]

Been thinking a little about this debate about the plausibility of Tarquin's little tricks, and the suspension of disbelief in this comic.

First, to those who feel that Tarquin knowing Drow sign destroys credulity for you, I say, well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't think anyone here is saying that you aren't. What some of us who feel like Tarquin's tricks are an addition to this comic as opposed to being a subtraction are saying that we don't find it hard to believe at all. In fact, to me at least, knowing something like Drow Cant is completely in character for Tarquin, based upon what I've seen from him in the past.

Secondly, I would say that this comic has never seemed to have taken itself too seriously. It has, in fact, broken the fourth wall on occasion. So if one is looking for "serious" storytelling, one may be reading the wrong comic.

Also, I would add, if one dislikes the mode by which Rich chooses to tell his most excellent story, why would one continue to read the comic? I would say that one is drawn in by the way Rich spins his tale, so like it or not, he has done his job.

That's my two copper pieces.

[Mantine]

Like Sarcasm, Hyperbole relies largely on tone of voice and facial expression and is generally best not employed via a textual medium such as forums :P

You mean apart of the "30 month's worth of strips" and "Xykon blasted by the Enterprise"? :smallconfused:

[Mantine]

Secondly, I would say that this comic has never seemed to have taken itself too seriously. It has, in fact, broken the fourth wall on occasion. So if one is looking for "serious" storytelling, one may be reading the wrong comic.

Being plausible and believable isn't requirement only for "serious" stories.
You could show me Belkar suddenly casting disintegrate next strip, and I still would condemn that even if this story "never took itself too seriously".


Also, I would add, if one dislikes the mode by which Rich chooses to tell his most excellent story, why would one continue to read the comic? I would say that one is drawn in by the way Rich spins his tale, so like it or not, he has done his job.
I don't see why one particular instance should be equated to the whole comic.
There have always been up and downs with the storytelling, disliking the downs isn't reason enough to "leave", nor are the ups reason enough to ignore/justify the downs.
I always found the whole "you don't like it? leave" argument silly.
What I don't like I strive to criticize, hoping to see it improved, rather than leaving the burning house together with everything still of value.

[Smolder]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase

That would make a good tagline...

Welcome to Giant In The Playground
"A fanbase which is so varied and divided in opinion that it's impossible to give everyone in it what they want."

:smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Glancing at a dictionary, you appear to be correct. Odd, I apparently learned the definition of that word incorrectly!

Thanks Kish :)
Yes, "preclude" means the exact opposite. It would have worked if you'd said, "...precludes the dark elf military being terribly far away."

[FujinAkari]

You mean apart of the "30 month's worth of strips" and "Xykon blasted by the Enterprise"? :smallconfused:

I don't know, I was not debating with you and have no idea what you're referring to, particularly since you didn't bother to quote yourself. I am just letting you know hyperbole does not typically work well in a textual environment.

I have to wonder why you are trying to debate that point with me... since you JUST had to explain to someone you were engaging in hyperbole. If you needed evidence to my claim that hyperbole does not work well online, the fact you had to explain what it was you were doing should suffice :P

[joca4christ]

Being plausible and believable isn't requirement only for "serious" stories.
You could show me Belkar suddenly casting disintegrate next strip, and I still would condemn that even if this story "never took itself too seriously".


I don't see why one particular instance should be equated to the whole comic.
There have always been up and downs with the storytelling, disliking the downs isn't reason enough to "leave", nor are the ups reason enough to ignore/justify the downs.
I always found the whole "you don't like it? leave" argument silly.
What I don't like I strive to criticize, hoping to see it improved, rather than leaving the burning house together with everything still of value.

I get what you are saying. I'm not saying you are not entitled to disagree. Not even suggesting you, in particular, should leave. Was commenting that, generally speaking, there seem to be several people who disagree with how Rich chooses to tell, at bare minimum, parts, of his story. And despite their protestations, they continue to read, which leads me to conclude Rich may be a better storyteller than they give him credit for.

Also saying that just because you seem to find this latest exploit implausible, doesn't mean that I have to as well. I'm saying that, in this situation, it is a matter of perception. We both can be "right" without either of us being "wrong." Saying that you don't have the market cornered on what is REALLY plausible (as in universally true for everyone) any more than the rest of us do.

[Mantine]

I don't know, I was not debating with you and have no idea what you're referring to, particularly since you didn't bother to quote yourself. I am just letting you know hyperbole does not typically work well in a textual environment.

I have to wonder why you are trying to debate that point with me... since you JUST had to explain to someone you were engaging in hyperbole. If you needed evidence to my claim that hyperbole does not work well online, the fact you had to explain what it was you were doing should suffice :P

....Well, generally, hyperboles DO work well online, if the... "other side" is even at least a little receptive to the notion.

I mean, do I really have to spell no to take it literally "Xykon blasted by the Enterprise"? :smallsigh:

[lio45]

Tarquin is high level, cunning, very experienced, successful. Really, what is so unplausible and unbelievable in his being able to communicate efficiently with his fellow party members while commanding a retreat at the appropriate moment, in the circumstances (smoke clearing, battle not going the right way)...?

If the reader hasn't gotten that Tarquin is supposed to be kickass by now, well... too bad for that reader.

[brionl]

It really says something about the irrationality of the hatred for Tarquin that a strip can be published and, rather than being upset that a Wizard who has never been shown to have Teleport before abruptly has the exact spell needed to get the LG out of a losing battle, people instead complain that the general whose nation borders a Drow kingdom happens to know the Drow language.


The default assumption for any standard D&D based world is that any Wizard of sufficient level does know Teleport, and has at least one prepared at all times. The Wizards that don't (like Vaarsuvius) are the ones that need special explanation.

But yeah, the irrational hatred of Tarquin is getting old.

[Gift Jeraff]

The default assumption for any standard D&D based world is that any Wizard of sufficient level does know Teleport, and has at least one prepared at all times. The Wizards that don't (like Vaarsuvius) are the ones that need special explanation.

But yeah, the irrational hatred of Tarquin is getting old.

I prefer it over the irrational love of him.