1st Level Paladin, Best Feats?

[OzzyKP]

Hey all! So I'm pretty darn new to d&d, I played a few short lived games as a kid (15+ years ago) but I'm creating a new character right now for a new game. I'm really not familiar enough with the combat system (or the rest of it) to know which feats and such would be the most useful for me. So... advice?

I'm a Lawful, Good Human Paladin. My stats:

STR - 16
DEX - 12
CON - 13
INT - 13
WIS - 12
CHA - 16

The feats/traits/talents and such I've picked so far:

Born Leader - Talent (MCAU)
Focused - Trait (UA)
Shaky - Flaw (UA)
Education - Regional Feat (PGtF)
Toughness - General Feat (SRD)
Improved Initiative - General Feat (SRD)

I've got a bit of a focus on the diplomacy skill, and knowledge, so I'm pretty set on the Born Leader talent and the Education regional feat, but I'm not sure about the rest.

If I take a flaw I get to pick another general feat, so I picked Shaky since I figured I wouldn't worry about ranged combat. I also get one optional trait; focused gives +1 Concentration at the cost of -1 listen and spot. Is that worth it? Toughness gave me +3 HP, is that worth having? I really don't understand the whole initiative system, but attacking first is good, right? +4 seems like a good bonus.... right?

Any suggestions?

[OzzyKP]

Also, I've made it up to #525 in the comic, loving it!

[ericgrau]

If possible you should have your group walk you through it.

Toughness is nice when you have 12 HP at level 1. It's horrible when you have 100 HP at level 13. Unless your DM will let you switch later it's best to skip it for long campaigns. Improved initiative is nice but not spectacular. It's only an extra 4/20th of a single round. Fights are only a few rounds, but that's still so-so.

In general think of what you actually do a lot, not just every once in a while. If you don't use it often then it's probably not worth it. Find what you're focused on. Read the combat rules, skill rules and so on. From there look through your books and find feats that match it well. If you want help from people here it will be helpful to let them know what books you're allowed. From the player's handbook weapon focus is a good general choice since as a paladin you swing a weapon almost every round. If you have more books then there are other feats that make that feat almost obsolete. Other feats take something that's bad to do most of the time, and make it good enough that now you'll want to do it most of the time. Improved trip is a popular example.

In short read all the player's handbook rules, especially the combat rules since paladins like melee weapons. Tell us which books you're allowed to use, tell us what direction you'd like to take with your character, and also consider flipping through the books by yourself to see which feats you'd like to utilize frequently.

[OzzyKP]

Well at this point, knowing little about the complexities of the game, what I'm expecting to do a lot is talk to NPCs (diplomacy), heal people, and smash stuff with my sword. I'm definitely hoping for more passive abilities over complicated combat maneuvers that I have to remember to use in the right way.

We can use all the standard general feats, and I believe feats from Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed, and a couple from the Eberron Campaign Setting.

[OzzyKP]

Also... after looking over the description again, am I better off going with Affinity with Skill in diplomacy over the Born Leader trait?

[docnessuno]

Since you took educated, knowledge devotion is a very nice feat
For the future, travel devotion, law devtion and battle blessing are almost a must.

Toughness is a terrible feat unless retraining is allowed. Improved toughness is MUCH better.

[The Redwolf]

Well listen and spot are both useful to have in general, whereas concentration is really for spellcasting, and if you're a low level paladin you won't be casting them yet, and I'm not really sure there are any paladin spells where you'd need to bother with concentration at all honestly, but I'm not super familiar with them.

[Flickerdart]

How much gold do you have? If you can afford a horse, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge are good feats for a knight in shining armour to have.

[OzzyKP]

How much gold do you have? If you can afford a horse, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge are good feats for a knight in shining armour to have.

I'm not terribly sure what the campaign has in store for us or how feasible a horse will be. The only hint we've gotten so far is there will be a lot of urban stuff initially, so I decided to opt for some chain mail instead of a horse.\

(I started with 200 gold)

[docnessuno]

If you know later on your special mount will not be very useful (urban and/or indoor/underground setting) or if you just don't like the idea of mouted combat that much, you might want to look at some ACF trading it away for other goodies.

[OzzyKP]

Since you took educated, knowledge devotion is a very nice feat
For the future, travel devotion, law devtion and battle blessing are almost a must.

Toughness is a terrible feat unless retraining is allowed. Improved toughness is MUCH better.

I don't think we can use feats from Complete Champion. I think Toughness can be retrained, but I suppose you guys are right that the usefulness of it wears off quick.

[INoKnowNames]

A Paladin with 16 Str and No Power Attack seems... unusual, if I do say so myself.

[ericgrau]

Ok so only 2-3 books and unearthed arcana doesn't have feats, meaning most of your feats will come from the player's handbook. I'm not familiar with Eberron so you might want to read all the feats available and maybe pick something that I don't mention.

Generally you want to handle combat first and skills second, especially for your class. Weapon focus is an easy choice if you don't want to add new options. Power attack is good at low levels when your damage is low and none of your attack rolls have any penalty, but it becomes less useful later once your damage increases and you get a second attack that has a lower attack bonus. But at that point it will still be good for single attacks (whenever you must move and attack meaning you can't attack twice). Generally giving up 2-4 points of attack bonus for more damage is good, but if foes are easier or harder to hit that may change things. As a paladin you might look at all the mounted combat feats because at level 5 you get a paladin mount, and even earlier you may still purchase a regular warhorse. Also check the rules on barding in the armor section. From there you might fall back on improved initiative but it would be better to branch out into a specialty you can tolerate:
Blind Fight: Check the listen skill rules plus invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) rules. Darkness or blindness is similar too. Magical invisibility is more common at high levels so it's probably too early right now.
The Combat Expertise tree for tripping or disarming, though they are a bit complicated ya.
Combat Reflexes is good if you have a reach (very long) weapon. See reach weapon rules in the combat section. You can get a free hit when far away enemies try to get closer. It also helps if foes try to move past you to the more vulnerable characters in the back line.
Improved critical (requires level 8) is good with a nice critical hit weapon like a scythe, falchion or scimitar.
Cleave is good if you fight lots of weak enemies that die in 1 hit and want to kill 2 at once. Improved bull rush, improved sunder and overrun are more special attacks similar to tripping and disarming.
Two weapon fighting does a little less damage than a two handed weapon but the extra attacks are good if you do a lot of added things on each attack like the above special attacks, smiting (though you won't get many smites until high levels), spell storing weapons, etc.
If you find yourself making a particular save every other round, there are 3 save boosting feats to consider.
Improved initiative and dodge are mediocre fall-backs that help your stats a little bit if you really don't want to specialize or if you did specialize but now you're high level and you've selected all you want.
Like I said skills are secondary. But if you find that the game is unusually low on combat and that you're constantly making a particular check (not just every once in a while), you can get skill focus or another skill boosting feat. Otherwise skip them.

[OzzyKP]

A Paladin with 16 Str and No Power Attack seems... unusual, if I do say so myself.

That's why I'm asking for help. :)

I looked at Power Attack, but I wasn't sure how useful it'd be...

[Flickerdart]

Eh, at level 1 Power Attack isn't terribly useful.

[ericgrau]

Its sweet spot is levels 2-5, after you're allowed to give up 2-3 points of attack bonus but before your second attack. After that it's ok for single attacks but not as much for full attacks because then your second attack at a -5 penalty could miss. Power attack is extremely popular here because of books you don't even have, so it's not actually as essential as what some people say. Still it wouldn't be a bad level 3 feat. You wallop foes for 3 levels then it becomes so-so.

[docnessuno]

I don't think we can use feats from Complete Champion. I think Toughness can be retrained, but I suppose you guys are right that the usefulness of it wears off quick.

Check if retraining is allowed, and also try in every way (hint: bribe with food) to convice your DM to allow CC, that splatbook alone raised the paladin class by half a tier.

On power attack: while not mandatory at lvl1 you'll want it sooner or later, so might as well pick it up. Also it's usefulness depends if you are going for sword and board or 2h weapon.

[OzzyKP]

Ok so only 2-3 books and unearthed arcana doesn't have feats, meaning most of your feats will come from the player's handbook.

I think Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed is different from Unearthed Arcana (confusing!) it does have feats in it.

[OzzyKP]

Check if retraining is allowed, and also try in every way (hint: bribe with food) to convice your DM to allow CC, that splatbook alone raised the paladin class by half a tier.

On power attack: while not mandatory at lvl1 you'll want it sooner or later, so might as well pick it up. Also it's usefulness depends if you are going for sword and board or 2h weapon.

Sword & board. :)

But if I'm taking points away from my attack and adding it to damage, am I risking missing my target? Is the attack roll fairly easy to win?

[HunterOfJello]

You should take Otherworldy Countenance at level 1 and then Precognitive Visions at level 3.

[ericgrau]

Sword & board. :)

But if I'm taking points away from my attack and adding it to damage, am I risking missing my target? Is the attack roll fairly easy to win?

No you need a good attack bonus. Skip power attack on 1 handed weapon then. Also be prepared for more flack and :smalleek: because with lots of books two handed + power attack is the way to go so it dominates these forums. But with those 3 books you should be totally fine.

With your good armor class from a shield combat expertise is a good secondary feat to consider, even if you don't trip or disarm. I wouldn't take it before your main feats, but it's a good way to save your butt when you're hurt and you're fighting foes that use weapons.

[OzzyKP]

No you need a good attack bonus. Skip power attack on 1 handed weapon then. Also be prepared for more flack and :smalleek: because with lots of books two handed + power attack is the way to go so it dominates these forums. But with those 3 books you should be totally fine.

With your good armor class from a shield combat expertise is a good secondary feat to consider, even if you don't trip or disarm. I wouldn't take it before your main feats, but it's a good way to save your butt when you're hurt and you're fighting foes that use weapons.

Ok, well I get to start out with two general feats (since I took a flaw). You recommended cleave earlier, but don't I need power attack to get that? Should I go the combat expertise path?

[Coidzor]

If you can get a web source OK'd, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)is good for everyone, especially at 1st level. Still OK even when the Paladin Mount comes on board, but you'd probably want to retrain it out at that point.

Otherwise, with re-training allowed and only a few sourcebooks... Grabbing what you can of the Mouned Combat line of feats is less attractive, but still what you'll likely want to re-train into... I've not read Arcana Unearthed, unfortunately, so I can't comment on that. Nothing I recall from ECS really jumps out at me for first level paladins either, though there really should be considering Thrane...

[ericgrau]

Cleave only if you face a lot of enemies you can 1 shot. You don't know that until you've played a bit. Basically pick your preference. If you don't want anything complicated you might do weapon focus + combat expertise, dodge or improved initiative. But the last 3 are so-so. You might want to look through your other books first.

EDIT @ V: I suggested combat expertise by itself as an emergency tactic for S&B. It works well but only in dangerous melee situations.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ok, well I get to start out with two general feats (since I took a flaw).
Er, no, you get three. Human.

You recommended cleave earlier, but don't I need power attack to get that?
That was before you announced you're doing S&B.

Should I go the combat expertise path?

:smallconfused:

What, you mean feat trees that require Combat Expertise? Because there's more than one.

[OzzyKP]

Er, no, you get three. Human.

Oh, yea, but I've got two left after picking a Talent & a Regional Feat (so two to start, one for the flaw, and the DM gives us one extra).

[eggs]

The only useful feats I can remember from Arcana Evolved are some of the advanced ritual feats and the one that gave characters an extra move a couple times per day. I don't think the prior is in A.Unearthed, and the latter doesn't hit a reasonable number of uses until pretty late in the game. I could be forgetting something, but most of that book seemed like a deliberate power-down from the core game (Monte cited Rapid Shot as the kind of feat that was too powerful to be in the game, iirc).

[ericgrau]

From arcana unearthed you could look into speed burst, natural swordsman, wealthy or maybe energy resistance (fire). They seem better than the 3 so-so feats I brought up.

For the ritual feats bonded item, fleet of foot, modify combat style and weapon specialization seem nice.

You should see whether or not you'll be able to use a mount a lot. If so it would be best to start early on the mounted combat feats since there are so many mounted combat feats and since other feat options seem limited.

[docnessuno]

For your future stat bumps i'd suggest Con - Wis - Wis - Str - Str (if you plan to stay in paladin or take prc's that advance casting), Con - Str - Str - Str - Str otherwise. (If possible i'd consider switching Int and Wis, so Wis would need a single stat bump. The combat-expertise feat chain is not that great unless you really want to focus on tripping/disarmig)

Another option would be switching Wis and Cha, and taking the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine #306 or Dragon Compendium) if allowed. This feat switches over all cha-dependant paladin powers to Wis.

[OzzyKP]

For your future stat bumps i'd suggest Con - Wis - Wis - Str - Str (if you plan to stay in paladin or take prc's that advance casting), Con - Str - Str - Str - Str otherwise. (If possible i'd consider switching Int and Wis, so Wis would need a single stat bump. The combat-expertise feat chain is not that great unless you really want to focus on tripping/disarmig)

Another option would be switching Wis and Cha, and taking the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine #306 or Dragon Compendium) if allowed. This feat switches over all cha-dependant paladin powers to Wis.

We're using this for my class:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin

So extra spells from from Charisma, not Wisdom. So.. I'm ok with keeping the high CHA. :)

(unless there is some other reason to have a good wisdom)

[OzzyKP]

From arcana unearthed you could look into speed burst, natural swordsman, wealthy or maybe energy resistance (fire). They seem better than the 3 so-so feats I brought up.

For the ritual feats bonded item, fleet of foot, modify combat style and weapon specialization seem nice.

You should see whether or not you'll be able to use a mount a lot. If so it would be best to start early on the mounted combat feats since there are so many mounted combat feats and since other feat options seem limited.

For flavor & such I think I'm going to stick with a diplomacy boost (either through Born Leader or Affinity With Skill) and education. And the other two feat slots are then limited to general feats, so I figure those will both be combat related.

And I know you say skill stuff is secondary, I kind of like being able to talk my way out of issues. I think it fits with my personal style. I, of course, don't know what kind of game the DM is going to run, but I'm hopeful at least that there will be a lot of non-combat aspects of the game. Though I suppose I'll be surprised!

[Flickerdart]

Power Attack is still useful even in core only, since you can turn circumstantial advantages like flanking or charge bonuses to hit into more damage.

[gorfnab]

Cryptic's Guide to the Pathfinder Paladin: Being a God's Wrecking Hammer (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1F-x-fASzmdXLjtC5Ddbv1YD4-uSRpyFvRbhhAxUPtZo&pli=1)

[OzzyKP]

Cryptic's Guide to the Pathfinder Paladin: Being a God's Wrecking Hammer (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1F-x-fASzmdXLjtC5Ddbv1YD4-uSRpyFvRbhhAxUPtZo&pli=1)

Oooh, that looks useful.

[docnessuno]

We're using this for my class:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin

So extra spells from from Charisma, not Wisdom. So.. I'm ok with keeping the high CHA. :)

(unless there is some other reason to have a good wisdom)

Whell, you should have mentioned earlier you are using PF paladin.
Are you using also Pf version of feats (toughness, power attack, etc) or not?
Keep in mind, for example, the guide linked by gorfnab is written with PF version of feats and spells.

[OzzyKP]

Whell, you should have mentioned earlier you are using PF paladin.
Are you using also Pf version of feats (toughness, power attack, etc) or not?
Keep in mind, for example, the guide linked by gorfnab is written with PF version of feats and spells.

We aren't using the PF feats, so yea, I noticed that some of the guide recommendations won't work.

I'm leaning toward ericgrau's recommendation of weapon focus + combat expertise, speed burst, dodge or improved initiative.

Oh, and I asked the DM about mounts and he said:


My honest answer at the moment is "I don't know". There will be opportunity to purchase horses, but at least for the first adventure there won't be a huge amount of chance to ride them. I'm intending for some urban adventuring so there may be opportunity there, but I don't know exactly what I'm going to be doing for that yet.

[Andorax]

Given that it's Eberron, have you considered taking Least Dragonmark and playing a member of one of the Dragonmarked houses?

[OzzyKP]

There are only like 4-5 feats he is allowing from Eberron, and those aren't among them. He has (as far as I know) created the world and particulars of it himself. There is a dragon empire in the world though, so I decided to take Draconic as my extra language.

[OzzyKP]

Thanks for everyone's help. :)

[danzibr]

It'd be cool if you could be a level 0 Half-Minotaur Paladin.

[Koretsu]

This is going to sound crazy, but hear me out:

Tower Shield Proficiency

No, I'm not kidding. The friggin' door strapped to your arm is one of the best tools available to a paladin. Consider:

At low levels, the Tower Shield and the Heavy shield is a full 2 AC difference. That's a whopping 10% additional miss chance. At low levels where the GM has to balance most PCs having a relatively low AC, this means that a strong enemy might hit you on a 19. Maybe. More likely, you're going to only be hit on a 20 and practically never confirmed against. One the rare occasions that you are hit? Lay on Hands, and you're golden.

Combine this with the ability to ready your shield to grant yourself cover, and you have a massively useful defensive tool that can grant you evasion when you know the AoE's coming (say, from a dragon's breath weapon).

Sure, you're going to take a -2 to your attack rolls, but your damage output is on the shallow end as a paladin anyway, and when you're smiting, your Charisma Mod more than makes up for it. You don't need a massive 2-handed weapon, because the extra damage it grants you is relatively negligible compared to the paladin's true value in combat - The paladin is hands-down the toughest guy in a fight to hit.

Consider: You've got full plate, a 12 Dex, and a tower shield. Even unenchanted, your AC's a massive 23. You're locked in melee combat with the enemy, and your turn comes up. What do you do? You move through the threatened range of as many monsters as you can manage. Why? Because enemies only get so many attacks of opportunity per round (usually only 1). And you are going to provoke every last one of them. Suddenly, the monsters have burned their attacks on your sheet-metaled butt, and your allies get the round to move around to flank them with impunity. Flanking for sneak attacks (offsetting your -2, by the way), and allowing the squishies time to get out of melee. You've just had a massive impact on the party's odds of survival. And you did it with your move action.

You will immediately become the backbone of your party. That kind of selfless action keeps you a beloved member of the party and not "that guy we've gotta ditch when we want to be naughty." Between your AC and your adding your CHA mod to all your saves, and Lay on Hands, you will be the juggernaught of your party.

And as a quick exit note: Scaling can continue to happen with this, by the way. Focus on your armor and shield upgrades over your weapon. (Upgrading both for another +2 to AC is the same as enchanting your weapon up a step). Hell, while you're add it, enchant your weapon with defending. Prepare Shield of Faith once you get the spell slots.

EDIT: Just saw you're playing Pathfinder's Paladin. This build just got better. LoH is a swift action for yourself. You get to add your CHA mod to AC when smiting, and your smite carries a metric boat-load of damage with it when it counts in a fight. Also, your level 1 AC if you had a tower shield and full plate would now be 24, not 23.

[Andezzar]

EDIT: Just saw you're playing Pathfinder's Paladin. This build just got better. LoH is a swift action for yourself. You get to add your CHA mod to AC when smiting, and your smite carries a metric boat-load of damage with it when it counts in a fight. Also, your level 1 AC if you had a tower shield and full plate would now be 24, not 23.Don't forget that the PF Smite ability works until the target is dead, not just for a single attack.

[danzibr]

I really like Koretsu's idea.

[Razgriez]

Drop Toughness. If you really want it, go with Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior, as it's requirements is easy for Paladins, and will provide more HP in the long run, then Toughness will.

Consider also Power attack, as that opens the gate way to learning Divine Might once you also have Turn Undead. A Paladin in many cases, is better served using Turn attempts to channel that power into Divine Feats, like Divine Might (Grants you mini smites, not limited by foe alignment!). When I used it one time in a campaign, it was extremely useful. Other Divine Feats are useful as well, such as Divine Vigor (Speed bonus and fairly decent Temp HP Buff for a number of minutes equal to Charisma mod) or Sacred Vengence for Undead slaying if you find your self frequently in battle with them.


EDIT: Sorry, seems according to other posts, this is for Pathfinder. My mistake.

[Flickerdart]

This is going to sound crazy, but hear me out:

Why would anyone want to attack the turtle when squishier morsels that are actually doing damage are also running around?

[OzzyKP]

I was definitely considering picking up a tower shield at some point, so your argument is certainly persuasive Koretsu. Unfortunately I started with just 200 gp and I spent most of that on chain mail. But I think it is likely I'll go for it when I get my next feat.

Though what about Flickerdart's comment? I don't know enough about combat to know what the enemies will do. I've got an AC of 18 right now with chain mail and a heavy shield.


Oh, and I've got a question about Lay on Hands. It says I need a free hand to use that, so how does that work when I'm carrying a sword and shield? Do I have to put one of them away first?

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Is the chainmail set in stone? If not, you could get scale mail for a lot less (50gp rather than 150gp) and only sacrifice 1 point of AC. If you spent some of your savings (and the feat) on a tower shield, you would get a net of 3 points better AC than with just the chainmail (or 1 point better in total than chainmail with a large shield).

If you're concerned about enemies just choosing not to attack you, you could try to get your DM to let you have Goad from Complete Adventurer (found online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3).) As a move action, you can taunt an enemy you threaten into attacking only you during its next turn unless it makes a will save (the DC is 10+1/2 your level+your charisma bonus). It should be pretty good until you start wanting to make full attacks.

As for Lay on Hands, you wouldn't be able to do it with a sword and shield out, but as most people on these boards will tell you, healing in combat isn't usually a very good use of your time and resources so you could just wait and lay on hands after the fight when you've already sheathed your sword. If worse comes to worse and you have to heal immediately, dropping your sword is a free action. Consider picking up a cheap second weapon you could draw and use if you ever are forced to drop your sword. Picking up a dropped weapon is a move action but since you'll have 1 BAB at level 1 you could draw a different weapon as a free action combined with a regular move and it's often a good idea to have all three damage types available in case you run into monsters with damage reduction. (A club costs you nothing and a short spear would only set you back 1 gp. If you've got 8 gp to spare, a morningstar would cover both piercing and bludgeoning.)

[OzzyKP]

Interesting. Good point about the chain mail. As for the tower shield, I just noticed that it also comes with a -2 penalty to my attack. Is that a good trade off?

Also, since both goad (if the DM allows it) and picking up my sword are move actions, what about taking the speed burst feat which gives me an extra move action? Limited uses though (once per day for every two levels), but would that be a good combination?

[Andezzar]

Also, since both goad (if the DM allows it) and picking up my sword are move actions, what about taking the speed burst feat which gives me an extra move action? Limited uses though (once per day for every two levels), but would that be a good combination?Wait till you get a bit of gold and buy the least crystal of return (MIC p. 65). for 300 gp any masterwork weapon to which you attach the crystal can be drawn as a Free action.

[OzzyKP]

I very much like the idea of playing a defensive character, out to shield and protect my allies. How best to do that... I dunno. For the record my party includes a monk, a ranger, a wizard, a cleric and a rogue.

I've been reading lots of recommendations elsewhere on how to build my character, and there seem to be a lot of options. A lot of people seem to suggest I go for two-weapon fighting, though I need a high DEX for that, so I'd have to move over my 16 in strength to dexterity, and I'm not sure I like the idea of that. Especially if I'm wearing lots of heavy armor that kills my dex bonus to AC.

I've also been wondering about the sacred shield archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sacred-shield) but it involves giving up the smite evil ability which people say is the best thing about paladins.

[Andezzar]

I've been reading lots of recommendations elsewhere on how to build my character, and there seem to be a lot of options. A lot of people seem to suggest I go for two-weapon fighting, though I need a high DEX for that, so I'd have to move over my 16 in strength to dexterity, and I'm not sure I like the idea of that. Especially if I'm wearing lots of heavy armor that kills my dex bonus to AC. With PF smiting that may be an option. Even without a part of the Dex Bonus to AC heavy armor is a good idea:
A chain shirt (best light armor) nets you up to 8 AC (4 Armor Bonus, 4 max DEX), a breastplate as well (5 Armor Bonus, 3 max DEX), Full Plate armor gives you 9 (8 armor bonus 1 max DEX). Additionally the Armor Bonus also applies when you lose your DEX to AC and you do not get Uncanny Dodge. The paladin does not have many Skills that suffer from ACP and even less Skill points.
Once you have enough money for a Mithral Full Plate it gets really interesting (8 Armor Bonus 3 Max Dex, only -3 ACP). Mithral Breastplates and Chainshirts are at 10 AC though.

Unless you get some increase to DEX though you will only ever have two off-hand attacks. Additionally it is very feat intensive: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

BTW I corrected my brain fart above. You draw the weapon as a Free Action.

[OzzyKP]

Ugh.. I'm even more confused now then when I started creating this thing, hah. I really like the idea of a standard sword & shield tank paladin. But the two things that keep bothering me is the challenge of using lay on hands while my hands are full and the idea that enemies will just bypass me and attack an ally.

I might just struggle through those challenges for flavor reasons (and since there are several newbies in my group the DM may go easy on us). But the other recommendation people have, which is going with a two handed weapon, is looking to be more useful (though less satisfying then the tower shield route).

[OzzyKP]

Picking up a dropped weapon is a move action but since you'll have 1 BAB at level 1 you could draw a different weapon as a free action combined with a regular move and it's often a good idea to have all three damage types available in case you run into monsters with damage reduction.

Explain this bit to me. A free action combined with a regular move? So.. in a particular round, if I needed to heal, I could drop my weapon (free action), lay on hands to heal myself (swift action), draw a new weapon (free action), and then goad an enemy (move action)? But then I wouldn't be able to attack that round?

Oh, and the DM says I can use the Goad feat.

Actually the tower shield tank option is looking a lot better with the goad feat. Especially since I have high charisma (which it uses).

Oh, I can attack AND use a move action in a round? So I can pretty much goad whenever I want then and not lose my attack? That looks quite nice indeed.

[Flickerdart]

A single attack is a standard action, so yes, you can Goad and attack. However, a full attack will also consume your move action, so at levels 6+ you will have to make a choice between Goading and making extra attacks.

If you really want to tank, the PHBII Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) is available for free online and its Test of Mettle is a lot more effective than Goad. Ask your DM if you can use it - if sources are an issue, its online availability should help there, so it's worth a shot. The Tome of Battle's Crusader is even better at this, but they're not free anywhere legal.

The only other way to attract enemies to yourself effectively is getting huge reach and tripping everything using a spiked chain, but you're better off with a different class for that.

[OzzyKP]

Well, as Koretsu said, even if I don't use goad, I can still walk around and soak up the enemy's attacks of opportunity which would make things easier on my allies by itself. Plus, who knows how long this game will last, we might not even get to the point where I get extra attacks.

Anyhow, while the knight looks quite interesting, especially for this strategy, I think I'm going to stick with a paladin. The flavor is similar, which I like, but a key thing for me is that paladin has diplomacy as a class skill and I'm planning to prioritize that. Plus I just like the idea of paladins. :)

So as of right now I think I'm going to go with scale mail, a tower shield, pick up a morning star as an extra weapon (to back up my longsword), and get tower shield & goad as my two feats.

What do people think of the Divine Defender archetype? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/divine-defender) It seems to fit my character quite well and I don't seem to give up as much as I'd have to for the Sacred Shield. The only real loss with this archetype is mercies. How does the trade off of mercies vs. shared defense look?

[Flickerdart]

Well, as Koretsu said, even if I don't use goad, I can still walk around and soak up the enemy's attacks of opportunity which would make things easier on my allies by itself.
Except they don't have to take the AoOs against you because your offense is not really high enough for them to bother with you. Your move speed in full plate is also going to be so low that even using double moves you don't move far enough to affect a significant area, and are wasting your turn hoping to deny your enemies attacks they would get for free instead of doing anything to neutralize them.

[ericgrau]

Combat expertise is a better feat option than tower shield proficiency because you can get -2 AB/+2 AC whenever you want rather than being forced to get it all the time. Or -5 AB/+5 AC.

This tactic is generally a good idea when enemies use physical attacks rather than special attacks (which don't consider AC) and when you're getting hurt. Since D&D combats are only a few rounds, you're in front and movement is expensive this is a lot more common than people might think.

I might dip fighter for free tower shield proficiency instead of CE, after you play a while and find out the campaign has almost all physical opponents with limited mobility. Or if not you could grab CE later. For PF classes a fighter dip is also handy for heavy armor proficiency.

[Andezzar]

Except they don't have to take the AoOs against you because your offense is not really high enough for them to bother with you. Your move speed in full plate is also going to be so low that even using double moves you don't move far enough to affect a significant area, and are wasting your turn hoping to deny your enemies attacks they would get for free instead of doing anything to neutralize them.Scale- and Chainmail are no better. The only difference between medium and heavy armor is the run multiplier. If that comes into play the character isn't doing anything besides moving anyway. Only light armor gives you more movement in rounds where you do something besides changing position.


Combat expertise is a better feat option than tower shield proficiency because you can get -2 AB/+2 AC whenever you want rather than being forced to get it all the time. Or -5 AB/+5 AC.+1 Also Combat Expertise opens up other feats.

[Flickerdart]

Scale- and Chainmail are no better. The only difference between medium and heavy armor is the run multiplier. If that comes into play the character isn't doing anything besides moving anyway. Only light armor gives you more movement in rounds where you do something besides changing position.

+1 Also Combat Expertise opens up other feats.
The point isn't that he should have a lighter armour. The point is that the entire strategy is a terrible idea.

[OzzyKP]

Except they don't have to take the AoOs against you because your offense is not really high enough for them to bother with you. Your move speed in full plate is also going to be so low that even using double moves you don't move far enough to affect a significant area, and are wasting your turn hoping to deny your enemies attacks they would get for free instead of doing anything to neutralize them.

I thought AoOs were automatic? Don't they trigger if I move out of their threat zone? Again, I'm quite new at this, so I can't really if Koretsu's idea works or not, but it seems interesting. And if I can move and attack in the same turn, couldn't I move 20 feet and then attack someone? Maybe I wouldn't be zig zagging around six different enemies, but I could still affect a couple for his plan to work. Right?


And Combat Expertise does seem like a valid option in place of Tower Shield. I suppose I could also (later) pick up Dodge as well.

[Andezzar]

I thought AoOs were automatic? Don't they trigger if I move out of their threat zone?You automatically provoke an AoO from characters that threaten the square, but those characters are not forced to act upon that provocation.


And if I can move and attack in the same turn, couldn't I move 20 feet and then attack someone?Yes, you can.

[Flickerdart]

And if I can move and attack in the same turn, couldn't I move 20 feet and then attack someone? Maybe I wouldn't be zig zagging around six different enemies, but I could still affect a couple for his plan to work. Right?
Yes, you could move 20 feet and provoke from perhaps one enemy who wouldn't be obligated to take the AoO. In all likelihood this movement takes you away from your allies, who are now unprotected. Oh, and if you want to run around and attack people, forget using Goad, because you're out of actions.

[ericgrau]

Btw I did mention that arcana unearthed had better feat options then the player's handbook ones. Not that you can't eventually get both, nor will it hurt that much if you simply prefer the weaker feats or if you need them for a particular style you want to play.

[Koretsu]

It's true that a clever enemy might opt out of the attack of opportunity, but that's going to be the exception, rather than the rule, in most situations. The big, burly melee monsters generally are the types that swing at anything that moves. A dragon might not fall for the trap, but the ogre almost always will. The enemies you'll face in heavy melee that are smart enough to see through this tactic, by the way? They're your bread-and-butter smite targets (Devils, Dragons, and intelligent Undead), which means you're going to already be representing a credible threat to the enemy.

Besides, if the GM knows that your paladin is using actions to deliberately leave himself open to attacks from the enemies to keep them distracted from attacking your allies, he's not going to simply ignore making those attacks of opportunity on you ever again. This would be akin to him seeing that a ranger took Favored Enemy: Undead and deciding to never include undead in his campaign again.

As a side note, you can back this up with the Antagonize feat from Ultimate Magic. It was nerfed in errata vs. it's published version, but it's still a perfectly respectable option.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Also, unless your DM metagames, there should be no way for enemies to know the big guy with the sword and shield (and eventually heavy armor, I assume) is just playing decoy. If you look like a threat, they should treat you as a threat and make their attacks of opportunity when provoked.

As for the free action weapon drawing: it only works during an actual move, not just something that took a move action. Still, you would be able at the start of your turn to drop your weapon (free action), use lay on hands on yourself (swift action), move over to the nearest enemy (move action) drawing a new weapon as you go (free action) and attack that enemy (standard action) with the new weapon. Just don't forget to pick your sword up after the fight. Aside said, healing in combat isn't usually a great idea in that as just killing the enemies so the can't deal even more damage is usually better in the long run, but lay on hands being swift on yourself does make it more appealing.

Combat expertise sounds like a good call, letting you sacrifice attack for AC when you need it but not when you don't. In that case, I'd skip the tower shield and go back to the chain mail. (A chain shirt would trade one point of AC for better mobility, but I don't know how well that fits what you're going for.)

[OzzyKP]

As for the free action weapon drawing: it only works during an actual move, not just something that took a move action. Still, you would be able at the start of your turn to drop your weapon (free action), use lay on hands on yourself (swift action), move over to the nearest enemy (move action) drawing a new weapon as you go (free action) and attack that enemy (standard action) with the new weapon.

Wow, so I can heal, move AND attack all in the same round? That's fantastic.

I've decided to drop the tower shield (for now at least) and go back to the chain mail. I think I'm going to pick up the Goad feat as well. For my second feat I was considering Combat Expertise, but I'm leaning toward picking up Dodge instead. I figure it is a free point of AC without any attack penalty (like a tower shield or expertise), and perhaps I could get expertise at 3rd level, I dunno.

Any last argument in favor of getting Combat Expertise now instead of Dodge?

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Wow, so I can heal, move AND attack all in the same round? That's fantastic.Bear in mind, Lay on Hands is only a swift action on yourself. If an ally needs the healing, it takes a standard action so you wouldn't be able to attack the same turn. This is a lot of why healing in combat isn't efficient; losing your attack is a bigger cost than the healing is worth most of the time.


I've decided to drop the tower shield (for now at least) and go back to the chain mail. I think I'm going to pick up the Goad feat as well. For my second feat I was considering Combat Expertise, but I'm leaning toward picking up Dodge instead. I figure it is a free point of AC without any attack penalty (like a tower shield or expertise), and perhaps I could get expertise at 3rd level, I dunno.

Any last argument in favor of getting Combat Expertise now instead of Dodge?I'd favor combat expertise as it applies against all enemies, not just one you pick. Also, as a prerequisite, it leads to some nice stuff (improved trip and the like) and is flexible enough that you don't have to use it when you don't need it and can get more out of it when you need more or have the attack bonus to spare. That said, dodge does pair well with goad ("You must attack me. I dodge against you.") and is needed to take mobility, which could be nice for drawing out attacks of opportunity. In all, I prefer combat expertise, but dodge isn't horrible (especially at low levels; the scaling gives expertise a bigger edge later on.)

[Coidzor]

I don't think Person_Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) has been linked, but it'll probably be relevant to your interests.