Longbow advice

[GnomeFighter]

So, there must be a few archers in the playground, and I need some advice. I am looking to buy a longbow, but am having trouble getting any solid information.

This is what I have decided so far.

I want a Medieval or Victorian style bow. Not interested in a warbow. To heavy a draw and not really right for field and target work.
Looks like I am going to have to go for a laminate bow. Ash selfs seem ok, but I would rather pay the extra for a bow that will last longer. There is no way I can afford a Yew self.

Also, any arrow advice would be helpful. I know carbons would be bad. Most people seem to shoot with wooden arrows, but is this needed or just choice that people don't use aluminum shafts.

Any help would be of use. Longbows are a far more confusing than other bows, but at least they are simple once you get past the buying!

Ta!

[ForzaFiori]

Any particular reason you want a longbow? They're notorious for being harder to learn to use than any other bow.

[GnomeFighter]

Thats why I want one. After 10 years of shooting compound I want something totally the opposite. Having all the geeky toys to play with is all well and good, but I really fancy the challenge of a longbow. That and people who shoot longbow always seem to be having so much more fun and take it all much less seriously.

For compound it is all about not hitting the red. Miss one gold and its all over. With a longbow hitting the target at all is a plus. This seems to make it more about enjoying yourself than getting the last .1% out of your tuning. Unfortunately noone at my club shoots longbow (its a tiny little club).

[Dark Elf Bard]

I prefer Victorian, myself.

[Tyndmyr]

I've got a coupla bows...they range from a custom-made cut-down longbow (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-3894-youth-lotr-legolas-style-bow.aspx) for larp usage to a homemade mass of duct tape, fiberglass, and hemp. It all depends what you want, really. Most bow-makers aren't going to focus on historical poundage, and plenty don't use yew, etc. Unless you're pretty hard-core about using something really historical, it's pretty easy to just email 'em with whatcha want, and have them whip up a bow that feels about like a longbow and shoots solidly.

[Spiryt]

Also, any arrow advice would be helpful. I know carbons would be bad. Most people seem to shoot with wooden arrows, but is this needed or just choice that people don't use aluminum shafts.




Well, people usually use wooden arrows, because they fit already 'natural' and traditional bow.

Carbons and aluminum doesn't have that feel, I guess.

As far as I recall, with bows without arrow rest, feathers are advised, because plastic and generally solid, artificial stabilizers can cut the skin sliding against it.

[Tyndmyr]

I use carbon shafts exclusively now, regardless of type of bow. I fletch 'em with plastic, because it's cheap, easy, and works. Can they cut you if you hit yourself with em? I suppose....but you can do that with feathers too. And realistically, once you get the knack of shooting, you won't be hitting yourself. Arm-guards, etc to protect you from getting hit are crutches. Use proper form, and you won't need any of 'em.

[GnomeFighter]

I prefer Victorian, myself.

Is that because of the hand shock? Or is there something else I'm not aware of?


I use carbon shafts exclusively now, regardless of type of bow. I fletch 'em with plastic, because it's cheap, easy, and works. Can they cut you if you hit yourself with em? I suppose....but you can do that with feathers too. And realistically, once you get the knack of shooting, you won't be hitting yourself. Arm-guards, etc to protect you from getting hit are crutches. Use proper form, and you won't need any of 'em.

I assume it is the shooting off the hand with a longbow that is the problem. They don't bend when running over your hand. Something I had never thought about until now and will have to look in to. Personally I wouldn't go near carbon shafts for shooting off the hand. I've seen the mess a shattered arrow can make off a rest... *shudder*

[Dark Elf Bard]

Mostly the hand shock level, yes.

[Yora]

Okay, my first suggestion would have been "start with whatever the next sports club is teaching to know the basics", but you already did that.

But maybe still start with something relatively cheap to get an experience about how they are different from compound bows. After that, you're probably be able to tell much better what is right for you.
Wouldn't be too great to get a really expensive one that turns out to be unsuitable to you.

I am actually looking into getting into archery once I moved to the new university next month. Already checked the local sports club and they are using olympic recurve bows. That's good enough for me to learn the basics with and later switching to wood and training with it for myself.
Compound bows seem to defeat the purpose of playing around with a piece of wood, string, and pointy sticks that people used all over the world for 12.000 years. When Brian Ferguson can make Legolas look like an amateur without looking like he's trying, then a bow without any of the little gadgets is good enough for me. :smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

I use carbon shafts exclusively now, regardless of type of bow. I fletch 'em with plastic, because it's cheap, easy, and works. Can they cut you if you hit yourself with em? I suppose....but you can do that with feathers too. And realistically, once you get the knack of shooting, you won't be hitting yourself. Arm-guards, etc to protect you from getting hit are crutches. Use proper form, and you won't need any of 'em.

Feather fletching naturally bends and moves over the fingers/hand because of it's structure.

With longbow you generally have to 'hit' your hand, because you release the arrow from it.

I guess it depends on the particular plastic used.

[GnomeFighter]

Mostly the hand shock level, yes.

I'll go to a shop and give both types a try, but is the difference immediately noticeable, or is it a case of "after 10 ends you'll start to feel it"?



Compound bows seem to defeat the purpose of playing around with a piece of wood, string, and pointy sticks that people used all over the world for 12.000 years.

For me its a case of one extreme or the other. Recurved just seems to be a half way either way to me. :smallsmile: Either use all of the tech available, as with my compound bow (I can spend hours just fiddling with the scope setup) or non, with a long bow, where the only real changes I can make, without new bow or arrows, is in technique.

[The Succubus]

It's been a while but I used to shoot recurve with aluminium arrows. I tried carbon but found them too light and far too fragile. Have to admit longbow looks tempting but I really lack the upper body strength (atm - working on it /flex) to use a traditional longbow.

[Dark Elf Bard]

I'll go to a shop and give both types a try, but is the difference immediately noticeable, or is it a case of "after 10 ends you'll start to feel it"?


It depends. If you've used very different sorts of bows you'll probably feel it right away...

[Tyndmyr]

Having some sort of rest doesn't make a bow not a longbow...that said, adjustable rests on longbows are quite rare. In my particular case, the top of the grip suffices to hold the arrow for a brief period while firing. Either way, lot of shooting will eventually wear the wood down, and you'll have a point where the arrow sticks without you needing to hold it during the shot itself.

[Yora]

For me its a case of one extreme or the other. Recurved just seems to be a half way either way to me. :smallsmile: Either use all of the tech available, as with my compound bow (I can spend hours just fiddling with the scope setup) or non, with a long bow, where the only real changes I can make, without new bow or arrows, is in technique.
Yes, but I don't want to walk in there and say "I never held a bow in my life and I'm here to see what you're doing, and I want to get special treatment compared to everyone else here." :smallbiggrin:
There's modern materials in it, but it's still the same principle and works the same way. That's good enough for me as an introduction until I have the basics and can practice by myself.

[Bickerstaff]

Popping in as an archer myself, the reason people use wooden arrows with wooden bows is because fiberglass arrows and such don't bend around the bow like wooden ones do. Fiberglass arrows are just fine for fiberglass bows that have shelves cut into them that shoot straight, but since the arrow needs to bend around the bow for longbows, wooden is the best.

Also, what pull weight have you been using / would you like to use? You can get lower poundage yew bows (say, around 30lbs) for less than $500. Based on a quick google search (having drawn a compound only four times in my life thus far), that's not that much more than an average compound bow.

[GnomeFighter]

My compound is 50lbs, with a 60% letoff, so its difficult to tell what to try. I do use my 30lbs recurved from time to time (when i cba to carry the big case) so I was thinking of starting around 30-35lbs. All the yew bows I've seen have been £850+, so around $1k.


Yes, but I don't want to walk in there and say "I never held a bow in my life and I'm here to see what you're doing, and I want to get special treatment compared to everyone else here." :smallbiggrin:
There's modern materials in it, but it's still the same principle and works the same way. That's good enough for me as an introduction until I have the basics and can practice by myself.

Ye, i was just kidding :smallbiggrin: standard recurved is the best place to start (actualy you'll probably start with a fiberglass longbow for the first few lessons untill they trust you not to dry fire it). Its all personal choice once you get in to it.

Thank you all for your help. Ive learnt a few things and have a few more to think about! I also know i'm going to need another set of arrows (although I have seen a very nice arrow rack... More money to spend on stuff i dont need :smallsmile:)

[Hiro Protagonest]

<- Guy who knows a lot about traditional bows, and who spent two days going to Pennsic and two days coming back in a car with a guy who knows even more about longbows.

Longbows aren't particularly hard to use when compared to recurves. They might even be easier. Length gives smoother draw and lower stack, and contrary to popular opinion, they don't shoot noticeably slower, if at all, due to the fact that recurved tips have more mass (except for the Wilcox Duoflex, a hard-to-make design of bending recurve).

There are two main ways to tiller a longbow, as far as I'm aware. Most commercial longbows have a slight whip-tiller, regardless of whether they're stiff-handled or full compass (I recommend full compass, it uses the wood more efficiently). The older warbow designs had less of a whip tiller, resulting in more handshock, but also more power.

As a rule of thumb, if the longbows are custom-made, pick a length for the bow about three inches higher than your height. If they're not, look through the options and pick the one closest to that.

In general, yew is the only wood that makes optimal performance longbows (as opposed to long flatbows). Juniper's elasticity also makes it a good longbow wood. Hickory is fine. Ash is probably fine.

If you've been pulling a 30 lb recurve... yeah, I recommend 35-40 lb longbow.

Now arrows. Arrows have to be spined correctly for the bow. "Spine" represents how much the arrow flexes. If you're looking at some arrows online, and it doesn't say what spine they are, don't buy them. Just to be safe, don't buy anything for traditional archery from a site like that. Spine weight should match up with bow weight, give or take a few pounds. Usually, you'll see a spine value of something like "60-65 pounds". This is because matching arrows with the same spine is more trouble than it's worth. Then there's also the fact that you have to figure out how much an arrow rest cutting into the handle will change the dynamics of the spine, although I think this isn't necessary if you're purchasing a bow where you fire the arrow off your hand or an external rest (such as a bit of hardened leather glued onto the wood). You can bypass this whole process by just buying bamboo arrows. Any bamboo arrow will fire from any bow, of any poundage, and it will fly straight unless you botch the release.

[Yora]

With lots of achery people around: Does anyone of you know tricks to train depth perception. I am very highly left eye dominant and I can judge distance only by the size of objects. (Thankfully I alwasy assume things are much closer, so I only end up being too careful instead of being hit by things.) Which would work on always shoting the same target, but that's not really a solution. :smallbiggrin:
Covering your dominant eye to get used to using the other more is apparently the standard solution, but I heard there are tricks to make it improve much faster. Unfortunately, I can only find summaries of research papers, but not something like "take a pen at arms length and focus on it for 5 seconds".
Anyone knowing anything in that regard?

[Riverdance]

On arrows: I use carbon arrows (that I fletch myself with feathers) with my 45lb recurve and love them.

Pros: Perfectly straight
Can be used with inserts
Light weight
Smooth and easy to refletch

Cons: Cost (can be really expensive)
Splinters (carbon won't splinter like fiberglass but if it breaks it's wicked and can explode viciously)
Breaks can be hard to see and are dangerous (a cracked arrow can explode if shot again)


I personally love the carbons, even if sometimes I feel like I'm cheating in not using wood. I don't blame you for not wanting to use them if you're shooting directly off your hand though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

On arrows: I use carbon arrows (that I fletch myself with feathers) with my 45lb recurve and love them.

Pros: Perfectly straight
Can be used with inserts
Light weight
Smooth and easy to refletch

Cons: Cost (can be really expensive)
Splinters (carbon won't splinter like fiberglass but if it breaks it's wicked and can explode viciously)
Breaks can be hard to see and are dangerous (a cracked arrow can explode if shot again)


I personally love the carbons, even if sometimes I feel like I'm cheating in not using wood. I don't blame you for not wanting to use them if you're shooting directly off your hand though.

Although I have no idea what the source was, I know I've read or heard that bamboo is basically natural carbon. It's not perfectly straight, but that really doesn't matter, it's close enough that if you would hit right behind the left shoulder of a deer with a carbon arrow, you will with a wood arrow too.

It might cause you to miss the bullseye by a hair when you're shooting at 120 yards and you would've just barely hit it with a carbon arrow... but then again, it might have zero effect on the performance. Carbon is the best of modern arrow materials, but wood has proven to be reliable time and again for millenia.

[Adlan]

I'm an amateur Bowyer and Fletcher but I'll do my best to keep this on target and save any rambles for the end.

Going from Compound to a Trad bow is not something I have any experience with, however, I have been shooting trad bows most of my life, and I love them :smallsmile: So I'm always glad to see some one put down the training wheels and start shooting a proper bow :smallwink:

Where are you: This will affect the price and the ease at which you can find a medieval/victorian style long bow.

Just as an Aside: The difference between a Medieval and Victorian Design: A Medieval bow will be based on the Warbow designs, even if it dosn't draw warbow weights, and will Draw "Full Compass" meaning that the bend of the bow is even through the whole length of the bow, creating a Segment.
A Victorian design curves just at the ends of the bow (if it were a recurve, in the limbs not the riser), creating an uneven bend. My gut tells me the medieval design gets greater cast, but I've not shot exactly like for like, and I'm not a physicist.

If you want to order from a UK supplier, it's worth looking up whatever archery shops are near you (it might be worth ringing up all the clubs in the area too) and just getting out to see what longbows they have, what woods they used, you might get to handle them strung, see how they fit you.My old local shop was http://clickersarchery.co.uk/ He usually has all sorts of bows in, so it's worth ringing up rather than relying on his online catalouge.

They are lots, and lots of British Bowyers. Many of them are only semi-pro, or make the bows for the fun of it, but getting out to archery events and medieval fairs you'll probably meet several. Of course, these are not what I'd call budget bows. Labour costs are just too high for professional handcrafted bows to be 'budget'. I've heard mixed things about bows from european makers and sellers on e-bay, some very good, some not so. I'm still considering spending on a nice new warbow myself. Ash and Hickory bows from some both european and british are often very good value.

http://www.flybowshop.com/ is an Irish Supplier I link too purely because I went there on Holiday once. Got Soaked doing the first 3d course I ever shot, loved it. They had a very nice selection of bows.

In American suppliers, I have bought from http://www.3riversarchery.com/ and I can recommend them as having a good reputation in my circles.

I have also been in a Bass Pro Shop once. It was like a glimpse of my own redneck heaven. But from what I hear, the big outdoor supply shops are only good if you know what you are looking for.

So, in looking at Longbows:

1. Style. Lots of What Americans sell as longbows are what would be NFAS classification as an American Flat Bow, based off native american (and prehistoric northern european) flat limbed longbows. This isn't apparently what you are after.

2. Wood.

As you note, Ash is available as a cheap standard bow. Hickory is also a common cheap bow wood. Both make good bows, that will shoot fine. I know people shooting hickory self bows for more than a decade. Other good Self woods are Yew, but as you note that's expensive (I've seen good billets of Swiss Yew go for £150+). Another, arguably as good as yew, is Osage. Osage (or Bois d Arc) is a common hedgerow wood in some parts of the US, but is also a really good bow wood (though It doesn't have the natural laminate that yew does) and is reputedly a lot less effected by temperature changes. I've also heard of Boxwood being favoured for longbows, but never seen or shot one.

Laminations and Backings:
Laminations are layers used to make up a Bow. Backings are used to both preserve the life of the bow and as an important part of it's power if the right wood is used. You can often get Hickory or bamboo Backed yew at a pretty good rate, and that combination shoots lovely. Linen or Leather are also used as a Backing. I've even seen snakeskin backing on a flat bow. Linen is a historically contemporary backing if you wanted sometime more like a repro.

Laminations:
More Exotic woods are used here, as two or three different woods can be combined. Lemon Wood, Purple Heart, Bamboo, Hickory, Oak, Ash, Osage, Yew and I'm sure I've missed a few are common.

I myself have a Lemonwood, Osage and Hickory Backed Laminated victorian style longbow. It's the bow I took bowhunting and she shoots sweet as a nut.

Arrow:
I have done a Fletching Guide (http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28070) of which I'm quite proud. I'm currently collecting the supplies I need to make some Bushcraft arrows (Roadkill Pheasent provided dinner and the flights I'll need :smallbiggrin:).

I have shot all kinds of woods, one set of aluminium's, and one brand of carbon fibre arrows. Of the three, my favourite is shooting wooden arrows, and my most effective are my carbon fibre.

Most people will say it's heresy to shoot carbonfibre arrows off a longbow. They are correct, but call me a heretic any day. All the horror stories I've heard have been about arrows that either suffered abuse, or back when carbon fibre first hit the market. I shoot carbonfibre off the hand and I've never got a splinter (I have off of wood). And the important thing to remember is don't shoot abused arrows, wood ones can explode too (I've seen it). Treat your arrows well, they are more important to how well you shoot than the bow. I shoot the Carbon Fibre Heritage Express Series (Declaring an interest. They sponsored me with a set of 12 150's. I have since bought from them (12 250's, My draw weight went up), because they are a really good product.)

Different Shaft woods:

Done sniggering?

Port Orford Ceder:
The most Common arrow shaft as far as I know, this stuff smells wonderful, and makes a good arrow. It's pretty straight grained, a good density and has a good spine for low weight bows up to around 70lb.

Other woods I won't delve much into, as well as the subject of footing arrows are spruce, douglas fir, Ash, Poplar, Birch, Aspen and boxwood. Different woods have different properties that make different styles of arrow better.

Do you want to make your own arrows? Or buy in some ready made? I usually advise people to make their own, but that's partly because I love to make mine.

Do you have a Budget? That might help people suggest stuff you might like. I recommended These Bows to a friend:
Red Oak Backed in Linenhttp://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=8550-2

Hickory backed with Bamboo http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=8563X

Last years NFAS Nationals champion shoots a bow very similar, and the bow I have helped bring home the Team Event for our club (though sadly, before I owned the bow).

Hope that Helps.

Rambling about spine, draw weight and such can weight, particularly as OP is a compound shooter and so should be squared away on that side just fine.

[Tyndmyr]

Popping in as an archer myself, the reason people use wooden arrows with wooden bows is because fiberglass arrows and such don't bend around the bow like wooden ones do. Fiberglass arrows are just fine for fiberglass bows that have shelves cut into them that shoot straight, but since the arrow needs to bend around the bow for longbows, wooden is the best.

All arrows flex. None of them really go "around the bow" as such. Even on a longbow, carbon arrows will outperform the hell out of wooden arrows(assuming that you're using an appropriate shaft in all other ways).

Riverdances' list of pros and cons are accurate. I'd recommend occasionally checking your carbon arrows over(I certainly do). Discard any that are even slightly damaged, since they can go from damaged to shattered in basically no time at all.

Something else to mention about arrow shafts is length. Get your draw down, and figure out what length of shaft you need. I use pretty long shafts myself, but this can vary by archer. Once you've found that perfect shaft...buy a bucketload of them. Having matched arrows is the best of things.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Going from Compound to a Trad bow is not something I have any experience with, however, I have been shooting trad bows most of my life, and I love them :smallsmile: So I'm always glad to see some one put down the training wheels and start shooting a proper bow :smallwink:
Saying compound bows are training wheels for trad bows is like saying that bicycles are training wheels for cars. They're two different things that are in the same category. A compound bow requires different muscles to use. You get maximum poundage early, and when you're at full draw, you're at way lower. A compound archer will struggle holding a trad bow 30 lb below his usual compound at full draw, because the muscles that hold it at full draw aren't used to that. Conversely, a trad archer will struggle to pull a compound to the max poundage point, because his muscles aren't used to that much weight that early in the draw.

Where are you: This will affect the price and the ease at which you can find a medieval/victorian style long bow.

Just as an Aside: The difference between a Medieval and Victorian Design: A Medieval bow will be based on the Warbow designs, even if it dosn't draw warbow weights, and will Draw "Full Compass" meaning that the bend of the bow is even through the whole length of the bow, creating a Segment.
A Victorian design curves just at the ends of the bow (if it were a recurve, in the limbs not the riser), creating an uneven bend. My gut tells me the medieval design gets greater cast, but I've not shot exactly like for like, and I'm not a physicist.
Medieval gets greater cast, Victorian has less handshock (for those prissy noblemen who can't handle a little vibration).

Although for the distinction between the two, I think it's more commonly done by using the terms "longbow" (Victorian) and "warbow" (Medieval). So just look for either of those.

They are lots, and lots of British Bowyers. Many of them are only semi-pro, or make the bows for the fun of it, but getting out to archery events and medieval fairs you'll probably meet several.
Same thing here in America, from what I've heard. Or at least, there are tons of archers.
So, in looking at Longbows:

1. Style. Lots of What Americans sell as longbows are what would be NFAS classification as an American Flat Bow, based off native american (and prehistoric northern european) flat limbed longbows. This isn't apparently what you are after.
Yep. Make sure it has any the words "English", "European" (and NOT Holmegaard/Meare Heath, which are European flatbows), "Victorian", "Medieval".
Another, arguably as good as yew, is Osage. Osage (or Bois d Arc) is a common hedgerow wood in some parts of the US, but is also a really good bow wood (though It doesn't have the natural laminate that yew does) and is reputedly a lot less effected by temperature changes.
From what I've heard, Osage longbows have bad handshock. Also, staves and bows are roughly as expensive as Yew ones, although you're more likely to be able to find good Osage in America so there's no overseas shipping.

Laminations and Backings:
Laminations are layers used to make up a Bow. Backings are used to both preserve the life of the bow and as an important part of it's power if the right wood is used. You can often get Hickory or bamboo Backed yew at a pretty good rate, and that combination shoots lovely. Linen or Leather are also used as a Backing. I've even seen snakeskin backing on a flat bow. Linen is a historically contemporary backing if you wanted sometime more like a repro.
I'm not sure if combed flax is contemporary...

But there's only one reason to use linen. Ever. To make sure the bow doesn't break. On the downside, linen stacks severely past a certain point, which means less optimal performance. Of course, I think a linen-backed longbow would be fine fine in terms of stacking, unless you overdraw it or something.

A linen-backed bow, however, is indestructible. The thing will refuse to break. As it takes string follow and develops belly fractures, its cast will slow dramatically, but it won't break. A linen-backed bow is also rather cheap and easy to make, so it's good for a first bow.

Now sinew. Sinew is terrible. It makes a bow store more energy. But it's also heavier than wood. Its cast is about the same, but now you have a bow that's useless in wet conditions, and high maintenance in general.

Perry Reflex is an excellent and relatively simple way to increase performance, however. And it requires a simple composite, wood-backed wood. You tiller (not bend, tiller) both pieces of wood backwards, then glue them together while clamped into reflex. More practical for hunting purposes than an 80" flatbow taking advantage of its pros, much easier to make than a Wilcox Duoflex.

Port Orford Ceder:
The most Common arrow shaft as far as I know, this stuff smells wonderful, and makes a good arrow. It's pretty straight grained, a good density and has a good spine for low weight bows up to around 70lb.

Other woods I won't delve much into, as well as the subject of footing arrows are spruce, douglas fir, Ash, Poplar, Birch, Aspen and boxwood. Different woods have different properties that make different styles of arrow better.

One book I have quotes that the four best arrow woods are Sitka Spruce, Douglas Fir, Norway Pine, and Port Orford Cedar. In that order. It's probably not entirely accurate, though. However, the author that quoted it also says that Port Orford Cedar really only gained its popularity for the smell. He's never tried Norway Pine, but he prefers Sitka Spruce. Douglas Fir is good, but lacks consistency. He never uses Port Orford Cedar because the Spruce seems to be twice as strong.

I've also heard good things about Poplar. And then there's always river cane and bamboo (check your cane arrows every time you go out to shoot, though, they'll have to be restraightened a few times over the years). But any wood can make decent arrows. It just depends on what their purpose is. Medieval longbowmen preferred Ash. Why? Because it was heavy, and they were using bows with draw weight in the triple digits, and flinging arrows that were expected to go through steel armor. Meanwhile, Turkish archers preferred a type of Pine. Turkish archery evolved from the nations of the Middle-Eastern and Eastern Steppes, like the Scythians, the Mongolians, the Huns, and the Parthians. They rode in with their horses, shot a volley or two from a couple hundred yards away at the lightly armored rank-and-file of larger armies, then rode off before the cavalry could get ready, or the foot soldiers could even get close. They needed light arrows for maximum distance, so they chose a light wood.

---

Oh, and I almost forgot. Never, ever string a wood longbow by putting one leg against the belly of the lower limb and bending. Fiberglass bows can handle it. Wood flatbows are fine if they bend slightly more in the upper limb (it'll even out if you string it like that). Longbows can't handle it well. Either use a bow stringer, or put the end of the bow on the ground, belly side facing towards the ground at an angle, put your foot on the ground against the bow tip so the bow won't move, put one hand on the handle and the other on the string and the upper bow limb, then pull the handle upwards, the upper limb downwards, and run the string up until it gets to the nock.

EDIT: Okay, for recurves, use the leg-against-the-belly method. Apparently the siyah can snap right off if you use the method I described.

[Yora]

Something else to mention about arrow shafts is length. Get your draw down, and figure out what length of shaft you need. I use pretty long shafts myself, but this can vary by archer. Once you've found that perfect shaft...buy a bucketload of them. Having matched arrows is the best of things.
Total noob question: Are there benefits to shoting with either longer or shorter draw length, or is that entirely determined by the length of your arms and always the same, regardless of what bow you use. (Assuming you have enough strength to draw this particular bow to that length.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Total noob question: Are there benefits to shoting with either longer or shorter draw length, or is that entirely determined by the length of your arms and always the same, regardless of what bow you use. (Assuming you have enough strength to draw this particular bow to that length.)

Longer draw stores more energy. But it also causes more string follow. Generally, a wood bow is made for a specific draw length. If drawn below that, it'll shoot fine, but it'll be slower since it's been stressed past that point. If overdrawn, it has a chance of breaking (but not as much as some people believe), and if it doesn't break, then it'll take on more stress and not shoot as well. If the bow was made extra wide or long because the bowyer didn't feel comfortable enough to make an optimal performance bow, then it'll overdraw to a certain point just fine, and it'll shoot optimally at that point.

Generally, just draw it to your lip, which is 28" inches for an average height adult male.

[Brother Oni]

To clarify Jade Dragon's post a bit, a longer draw indicates more power, so if you've got short arms like me, you need a heavier draw bow to match someone with a longer draw.

That said, you should only be drawing to whatever your references are - a particular length that you know you can draw to consistantly, using your face and hand position as markers.
These references are very individual - some people draw to their lips, using the chin as a marker point; others draw to half way across their face - mine for example are the first knuckle of the thumb on the corner of my jaw bone with the string just touching the side of my nose.

Consistent references mean you are regularly firing your arrows with the same power, so adjusting your aim to be on the target is easy. If all your arrows are flying out with different powers, you'll never get consistently on target.

Your draw length will change slightly as you improve as an archer, so you may outgrow your first bow and arrows.

I second Tyndmyr's suggestion of having matched arrow lengths and have one of my own - always have arrows that are longer than your draw length, if only by an inch or two. I've got photos of what can happen if they don't (I don't think I can link to them here).

[Adlan]

Arrow length also affects arrow spine. I make my arrows extra long and then trim them down when I'm spining them to my bow. I always prefer a heavy spined arrow with a heavy head on it though, that's just how I like to tune my bows.

[Spiryt]

For the same or slightly lighter weight similar head etc. longer arrow will also be more flexible, usually losing more energy in flight due to them.

In 'normal use' this maybe often not very important, but Turks with their far shooting obsessions were taking care of it. :smallbiggrin:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VH5a8fYigWc/0.jpg

[Tyndmyr]

To clarify Jade Dragon's post a bit, a longer draw indicates more power, so if you've got short arms like me, you need a heavier draw bow to match someone with a longer draw.

To expand further on this...how much the draw increases depends on the type of bow. Longbows usually have a strictly linear increase in power based on draw. Recurve bows get a bit of an exponential increase, meaning that a fully drawn recursive bow will have somewhat more power than a fully drawn longbow, assuming everything else is equal.

That said, bow length, draw weight, etc are usually larger factors. Compounds offer some unique advantages too, often allowing people to manage a higher draw weight, but I still prefer the longbow for style reasons.


I second Tyndmyr's suggestion of having matched arrow lengths and have one of my own - always have arrows that are longer than your draw length, if only by an inch or two. I've got photos of what can happen if they don't (I don't think I can link to them here).

Oh good point, yeah, you definitely don't want arrows getting drawn off the rest just before release. That's a bad day.

[Brother Oni]

In 'normal use' this maybe often not very important, but Turks with their far shooting obsessions were taking care of it. :smallbiggrin:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VH5a8fYigWc/0.jpg

From that photo, it looks like he's using a thumb ring - does anybody here have any experience in using one and how it compares with a tab?


To expand further on this...how much the draw increases depends on the type of bow. Longbows usually have a strictly linear increase in power based on draw. Recurve bows get a bit of an exponential increase, meaning that a fully drawn recursive bow will have somewhat more power than a fully drawn longbow, assuming everything else is equal.

I've heard that a recurve will get about double the power of a same draw longbow, but I'm not sure whether that's an exaggeration or just very rough ballpark figures.

[Spiryt]

I've heard that a recurve will get about double the power of a same draw longbow, but I'm not sure whether that's an exaggeration or just very rough ballpark figures.

Most certainly no chance... There can be a lot of difference, but not that much.

If you get light enough arrow, final velocity may be in fact much greater - longbows and wooden bows aren't very fast in general. But it's not the same.

Depends on definition of 'recurve' anyway, a lot of medieval depictions show longbows with recurved tip as well.

[Tyndmyr]

I've heard that a recurve will get about double the power of a same draw longbow, but I'm not sure whether that's an exaggeration or just very rough ballpark figures.

Ballpark, I'm sure. There's a few complicating factors, but as a general rule, a fully drawn recurve will have significantly more power than a similar longbow. Double seems a bit on the high side, but there may be cases where it's true.

For instance, draw length matters. If you're pulling the string 5 inches back to get a 30# draw weight vs pulling the string back 10 inches to get a 30# draw weight, the latter bow will have a longer period to push the arrow, and thus, kick out the arrow faster/with more power. Longbows typically do fairly well in this regard, with the string resting fairly close to the bow.

[Erloas]

I'm not sure if combed flax is contemporary...

I'm not sure if I'm reading what you were trying to say entirely correct or not but... Flax, aka linen is a very old material. With it being used 4000+ years ago in Egypt and it potentially being much much older then that. It was also very common in Europe from very early on and wasn't really replaced by cotton until the very late renaissance period.



As for bows, how convenient of a topic to come up. As my brother and I were both looking at getting into shooting again. He has shot quite a bit, I've only shot a little bit. He currently has a 20-30# bow which is very plain as well as a more modern 50# recurve bow. We took them out shooting over the weekend, and I was better then I would have expected. 40 yards was outside of all of our range (not sure how much was us and how much was the bow weights) but 30yards and less was pretty easy to hit.

I was looking at picking up a bow for myself but I'm not sure what yet. His 50# recurve was pretty easy to draw for me and I was wondering if I should get something a bit heavier. The rests made it a lot easier to shoot too. Needed to change how I'm holding stuff for the plain bow to keep from hitting my arm, I think the draw was a bit short on that one too.

We would be using these for target archery for SCA competitions, not combat archery.


As for the wood arrows, if you're going to shoot traditionally, you may as well shoot traditionally. It doesn't make sense to take a very traditional style of bow and shoot ultramodern arrows out of it.


edit: And while we're here... any recommendations on kits, tools, and parts for building your own traditional arrows?

[Hiro Protagonest]

From that photo, it looks like he's using a thumb ring - does anybody here have any experience in using one and how it compares with a tab?



I've heard that a recurve will get about double the power of a same draw longbow, but I'm not sure whether that's an exaggeration or just very rough ballpark figures.


Most certainly no chance... There can be a lot of difference, but not that much.

If you get light enough arrow, final velocity may be in fact much greater - longbows and wooden bows aren't very fast in general. But it's not the same.

Depends on definition of 'recurve' anyway, a lot of medieval depictions show longbows with recurved tip as well.


Ballpark, I'm sure. There's a few complicating factors, but as a general rule, a fully drawn recurve will have significantly more power than a similar longbow. Double seems a bit on the high side, but there may be cases where it's true.

It doesn't matter how much power it has. Recurves have more weight to push forward, because they require extra tip mass, and usually extra string mass if the recurve is big enough to matter. An expertly engineered straight-stave bow will outshoot a recurve, and be smoother to draw and shoot. Only the master-level Wilcox Duoflex type of recurve will outperform a regular wooden bow. Regular. Not expertly engineered, not Perry Reflex, not heat-treated, those designs will match the power of a Duoflex.

However, one of the most powerful designs of all time would be a Perry Reflexed Duoflex with a heat-treated belly...

And it's not just recurves. The legendary horn-wood-sinew composites... are no better than straight-staves of the same weight. Not at hunting weight. At war weights, they will outperform wood bows. At flight contests, they will outperform wood bows. For hunting and target-shooting purposes, they are temperamental things that perform no better than their competition, while being more expensive. The composite has its place as a short, easily maneuverable horse archer bow, but for standard hunting, just give me a sixty-inch straight bow, it's short enough.

I still want to make the torsion-powered bow, as demonstrated by master bowyer Tim Baker.
http://www.jerzeedevil.com/gallery/files/1/5/7/3/ballista_bow.jpg

[Adlan]

edit: And while we're here... any recommendations on kits, tools, and parts for building your own traditional arrows?

Earlier in this thread I linked to my fletching guide, which is a step by step and discussion of my thoughts on various materials. I'm now working on a Bushcraft version, which will incorporate my previous threads on sinew and flintknapping into proper survival arrows. I already have some good wing feathers and tomorrow I'm collecting shafts.

3 Rivers has everything you need to make arrows, but I do prefer to buy shafts in person so I can hand spine and check their weight. I have a Blitzenberger magnetic helical twist fletching jig, which is brilliant, but you don't actually need a jig if you are making really authentic arrows.

In the UK, a company called highland horn supplies things like deer sinew, and buffalo or cattle horn for nocks.

I can recommend John Lord and his son for Flint Supplies, best quality norfolk flint, same source as prehistorically traded as far away as russia. I've also supplied some friends with good flint, on a barter for their various local or personal specialties.