How's this for a quick n dirty tier rebalance?

[danzibr]

Full casters progress like Bard casting. That's it.

I realize you're not really, well, doing a single thing to bring lower tiers up to snuff, but hey.

[GenghisDon]

Probably works very well, although HL monsters may need tweaking.

What happens to the bard? Does he become the tier 1 of the world?

[danzibr]

Probably works very well, although HL monsters may need tweaking.

What happens to the bard? Does he become the tier 1 of the world?
Originally I was thinking to bump down Bard casting but reconsidered. The full casters have stuff beyond their spells. Like Druid with their AC and turning into animals and stuff, Clerics with their turning, etc.

[Murg]

Problem is that not all full casters are spontaneous casters like a bard. Translating wizards, clerics, druids ect. into bard-like spontaneous casters would have to be looked at on a case by case basis, which is not simple and could easily inadvertently create more balance issues.

Even spontaneous casters might not translate well.

[danzibr]

Problem is that not all full casters are spontaneous casters like a bard. Translating wizards, clerics, druids ect. into bard-like spontaneous casters would have to be looked at on a case by case basis, which is not simple and could easily inadvertently create more balance issues.

Even spontaneous casters might not translate well.
I meant... Just how the spell levels advance. Not make them all spontaneous.

[limejuicepowder]

I've never actually used it since I've never played to this level, but I (recently) decided that spells of 7th level and up aren't automatically available. The difference between this and what you said is casters maintain the same progression and spells per day, but it eliminates the most outrageously gamebreaking spells. If I ever DM'd a game that went high enough for this rule to matter, I would probably introduce 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells in the way artifacts are handled: incredibly rare and quest/campaign specific.

I like this fix more then all-round bard progression because it still allows the full casters to exist; if they are limited to bard spells per day, a gish is practically mandatory.

[ThiagoMartell]

I've been doing something similar in my game - there are no spells above 6th level. It's lost knowledge. Even finding a scroll is like finding an artifact.
It's been working pretty well so far and I've been doing for almost 6 years now.

EDIT: it's very similar to the post above mine. I guess great minds think alike.

[limejuicepowder]

-stuff-
it's very similar to the post above mine. I guess great minds think alike.

hear hear!

[sdream]

This quick hack would do a better job than most that try to improve all the sucky classes to game breaking level (which just makes things worse).

I would make them all cast exactly as bards do (only using their own spell lists and primary stats). I would give at least wizards and sorcerers infinite cantrips though so they can contribute more turns at low level.

[ThiagoMartell]

This quick hack would do a better job than most that try to improve all the sucky classes to game breaking level (which just makes things worse).

I would make them all cast exactly as bards do (only using their own spell lists and primary stats). I would give at least wizards and sorcerers infinite cantrips though so they can contribute more turns at low level.

Nah, don't do that. They don't need any freebies. Reserve feats are around, just let them take those.

[Anodai]

I think limejuicepowder's idea has a lot more teeth, frankly. If you did want to gimp spellcasting this hard, you really would have to take the progressions case by case because as it stands, spellcasting progressions amongst full caster classes are not all equal.
The biggest argument against this kind of idea is that a reductionist approach to balancing anything is usually not the best option. Yes, you may end up with a balanced system, but game balance isn't the only factor you have to worry about. The entire reason that game balance matters with a game like this is that an imbalanced game is less fun for some players. In the sort of group where high level balance is a serious issue, it is likely that a serious reduction to the abilities of one type of class will make playing that class a lot less enjoyable for some players. Instead, in my opinion, the less powerful classes should be brought up in power to meet the more powerful ones. I do acknowledge that there is a point at which this becomes unreasonable, for example, to bring a fighter up to the point where he matches a wish/miracle spell, and at that point you have to bring the overs down to meet the unders.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think limejuicepowder's idea has a lot more teeth, frankly. If you did want to gimp spellcasting this hard, you really would have to take the progressions case by case because as it stands, spellcasting progressions amongst full caster classes are not all equal.
The biggest argument against this kind of idea is that a reductionist approach to balancing anything is usually not the best option. Yes, you may end up with a balanced system, but game balance isn't the only factor you have to worry about. The entire reason that game balance matters with a game like this is that an imbalanced game is less fun for some players. In the sort of group where high level balance is a serious issue, it is likely that a serious reduction to the abilities of one type of class will make playing that class a lot less enjoyable for some players. Instead, in my opinion, the less powerful classes should be brought up in power to meet the more powerful ones. I do acknowledge that there is a point at which this becomes unreasonable, for example, to bring a fighter up to the point where he matches a wish/miracle spell, and at that point you have to bring the overs down to meet the unders.

Anodoi, speaking for myself, my group uses pretty much the option limejuicepowder (that alias cracks me up everytime, btw) presented still leaves plenty of options up for casters. They still have high level slots, so they can still use metamagic and their reserve feats are still growing more powerful.
In my case it also helps stablish the setting apart from the norm, which is always a plus in my book.

[grarrrg]

Full casters progress like Bard casting. That's it.

I realize you're not really, well, doing a single thing to bring lower tiers up to snuff, but hey.

I take it by this you mean every 3 levels instead of every 2?
Would they still have level 1 spells at level 1? Or would they have "0" level 1 spells at level 1 (i.e. "need a High Stat" for the slot)?.
Or would you start them with "0" level 1's at level 2 (exactly like a Bard)?


Originally I was thinking to bump down Bard casting but reconsidered. The full casters have stuff beyond their spells. Like Druid with their AC and turning into animals and stuff, Clerics with their turning, etc.

Umm, no.
Turn Undead is next to worthless for its intended purpose at high levels.
Wizards only get a Bonus Feat every 5 levels.
Sorcerers get NOTHING!
The only one of the bunch that has actual "class features" past level 1 is the Druid.

Now if you were to do this for Pathfinder, it would be quite different, as Wizards/Sorcs gained actual class features.
Clerics get an extra Domain Power or two at level 8, but nothing "new" after that, just improvements on the old stuff.

[Anodai]

Anodoi, speaking for myself, my group uses pretty much the option limejuicepowder (that alias cracks me up everytime, btw) presented still leaves plenty of options up for casters. They still have high level slots, so they can still use metamagic and their reserve feats are still growing more powerful.
In my case it also helps stablish the setting apart from the norm, which is always a plus in my book.

To clarify, I was referring to the OP's idea as overly heavy handed. limejuicepoweder's idea seems like a good one to me.

[danzibr]

Sorcerers get NOTHING!
I think familiars are really cool.

[Marlowe]

Could I just say that the Bard spell table is incredibly frustrating at low levels? Especially making a Level 1 character. You have to place your skills as if you were a spellcaster, except you don't have any spells. Enforcing that on everyone else is not a solution.

[ThiagoMartell]

Umm, no.
Turn Undead is next to worthless for its intended purpose at high levels.
Wizards only get a Bonus Feat every 5 levels.
Sorcerers get NOTHING!
The only one of the bunch that has actual "class features" past level 1 is the Druid.
Three words: alternate class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908).

[grarrrg]

Three words: alternate class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908).

My main point was that the OP said Full Casters have stuff other than spells.
For the most part, they don't.
This is also why ACF's and PrC's are VERY common with Caster builds.


I think familiars are really cool.

Drop down a sentence or two, I said "actual "class features" past level 1". And the familiars base stats will still scale regardless of if you keep taking caster levels or not. You just won't advance the Special Abilities any.

[ThiagoMartell]

My main point was that the OP said Full Casters have stuff other than spells.
For the most part, they don't.
This is also why ACF's and PrC's are VERY common with Caster builds.

I still don't see your point, man. They get stuff other than spells, that's the point of ACFs, you just need to look around a bit. :smallconfused:
I mean, all noncaster classes already must do that by default, basically. What's the problem with casters doing it?

[grarrrg]

I still don't see your point, man. They get stuff other than spells, that's the point of ACFs, you just need to look around a bit. :smallconfused:

Exactly, by default Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers have little/nothing in the way of class features, other than Casting.
You MUST go looking around for ACF's or PrCs to have anything.
Has anyone ever seriously played a 'default' Sorcerer straight through to level 20 if given even half a chance of grabbing anything else?

[ThiagoMartell]

Exactly, by default Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers have little/nothing in the way of class features, other than Casting.
You MUST go looking around for ACF's or PrCs to have anything.
Has anyone ever seriously played a 'default' Sorcerer straight through to level 20 if given even half a chance of grabbing anything else?
Yeah, no problem, but why is that an issue? They just have to take ACFs. Basically all nonclasses must do that as well. When was the last time you saw a Barbarin that lacked Spirit Lion Totem?

[sdream]

No, seriously.

Anything with faster than bard progression gets dropped to bard progression (including spells known).

Anything with d4 hit dice gets bumped to d6 and gets free cantrips.

Is there anything left above tier 3?
Is anything pushed BELOW tier 4 by this change?
Is there any class which becomes no fun at some level (compared to what is left, not godhoods past)?

[TuggyNE]

Is anything pushed BELOW tier 4 by this change?
Is there any class which becomes no fun at some level (compared to what is left, not godhoods past)?

Hypothesis: Healer, Warmage, possibly Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. (Healer might be acceptable collateral damage, especially given that it's already T5, but the other three would be kind of sad.)

[grarrrg]

Is there anything left above tier 3?
Is anything pushed BELOW tier 4 by this change?
Is there any class which becomes no fun at some level (compared to what is left, not godhoods past)?

I'd say the Warmage (tier 4) and Healer (tier 5) get punched in the face.
The Warmage probably gets bumped to high tier 5.
The Healer probably stays tier 5 though, even with only 6th level spells (but that's more from tier 6 just being horribly useless than anything).

EDIT: NINJA!

[Friv]

No, seriously.

Anything with faster than bard progression gets dropped to bard progression (including spells known).

Anything with d4 hit dice gets bumped to d6 and gets free cantrips.

So the sorcerer is a bard, but with a slower attack progression, fewer skills, fewer proficiencies, no casting in armor, no bardic music, and worse save progression.

In exchange, he gets... free cantrips and a familiar.

Yeah. Sorcerer is desperately hurt by this. Not sure about the wizard. Comparing him to the bard, you still have spell learning (I hope?) balanced against a tiny list of prepared spells per day, lose all of the above, and gain free cantrips and a familiar, and one feat every five levels.

Perhaps anything with full caster progression gets bumped to bard, but with +1 caster level on the chart?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I see where you are coming from, but I think this (and most other) fixes are not satisfactory. In this specific case it is, for example, a bard vs. sorcerer issue: Why play a sorcerer?

Perhaps a better, but not ideal, fix is to give casters their slots, but not the spells. This has been mentioned before, I think. Full casters can now use their high level slots to metamagic their lower level spells, but they won't be abe to learn spells of 7, 8 and 9th level. This gives full casters their edge on the bard (who in return gets more skills, decent HD and proper class abilities) and significantly lowers their power versus other classes lower than tier 2.

[sdream]

Everyone campaigning for rare lvl7 through 9 spells as a leveler is basically saying those are the only problem. I don't think that is the consensus.

I was actually worried about warmage.. And the canonical advantage of wizard and sorc is massive spell list.

Sticking with the d6 and cantrip bump for d4s.

Wizard gets +1 level on the chart, and can change their spells known using a scroll. Literally, any time you use a scroll you may also drop a spell you already know of that level and now know the spell you just cast from the scroll.

Sorcerers, beguilers and dread necros are +2 on the chart and have to use the same retraining rules to change spells and feats as everybody else. (You do have those for everybody else, right?)

Warmages and healers are exempt(and give them free cantrips), and blaster wizards and healing clerics will know where to go... But frankly tier 4 and below are all in need of separate and unique attention, as the goal is to get everyone to tier 3, and this rough fix only lowers the top, abusive, end.

[ThiagoMartell]

Everyone campaigning for rare lvl7 through 9 spells as a leveler is basically saying those are the only problem. I don't think that is the consensus.


No one said that. :smallconfused:

[ZeroNumerous]

The only thing this really does is force the Tier 1s to optimize a bit more. They're still on top, it just takes ever so slighly more work to get there.

1st level spells still destroy encounters, and Wizards still get them at 2nd level. The druid's animal companion still replaces the party beatstick, and it's still available from level 1. The fighter/rogue are still outshined by the wizard/cleric/druid in the standard Beatstick/Skill Monkey/Arcane Caster/Divine Caster/Fifth Wheel model.

Nothing really changes, except that it takes longer for the Wizard to become God than normal. He still gets there, and he's still awesome long before the Fighter, but all you've really done is delay him by 1 level.

[sdream]

No one said that. :smallconfused:

True, as a very simple one sentence rein in of some high level abuses, very rare 7-9 level spells is an easy and good start.

The essence of the OP's position is that full casters enjoy such a lead over the rest of the field that even cutting them down to bard casting is not completely unreasonable.

Now, honestly with the changes I outlined above, is bard progression and mechanics completely reasonable?

Are the following all tier 3?
Bard clerics and druids
+1 d6 cantrip bard wizards
+2 d6 cantrip sorcerers, beguilers, and dread necros?



Nothing really changes, except that it takes longer for the Wizard to become God than normal. He still gets there, and he's still awesome long before the Fighter, but all you've really done is delay him by 1 level.

I'd like some more opinions, but here is why I doubt that.

Wizard godhood relies on a wide range of tools being free to them before they are commonly purchasable by others. Delaying that progression of tools each day (and by more than one level) gives other classes the chance to catch up, and other class mechanics an opportunity to shine more.

[limejuicepowder]

The problem I have with knocking the full casters down to bard progression is that it almost entirely removes them from the early game, and they are still overpowered in the late game.

Seriously, take a look at the bard spells per day. I'm AFB right now, but at level 6 they get like 3 2nd level spells per day, and that's including bonus spells for a high casting stat. Speaking generally, the melee characters would largely carry the caster until roughly level 9-11, and then the casters would finally overtake the mundanes just like the usually do.

If anything, this would make things worse. At least with the current system, the classes a reasonably balanced below 7th or so level - casters still have an huge advantage in versatility, but hit points, damage, and armor still matter, thus mundanes have their place. This is why E6 is quite popular. But with those changes, EVERY level would unbalanced, in one direction or the other.

[sdream]

The problem I have with knocking the full casters down to bard progression is that it almost entirely removes them from the early game, and they are still overpowered in the late game.

Seriously, take a look at the bard spells per day. I'm AFB right now, but at level 6 they get like 3 2nd level spells per day, and that's including bonus spells for a high casting stat. Speaking generally, the melee characters would largely carry the caster until roughly level 9-11, and then the casters would finally overtake the mundanes just like the usually do.

If anything, this would make things worse. At least with the current system, the classes a reasonably balanced below 7th or so level - casters still have an huge advantage in versatility, but hit points, damage, and armor still matter, thus mundanes have their place. This is why E6 is quite popular. But with those changes, EVERY level would unbalanced, in one direction or the other.

With the latest sugggestions, the only classes really on bard casting are the ones with 3/4 bab and real class features, just like bards. I don't think you could make a reasonable argument that they are being carried by melee.

The arcane casters get a bump in hit dice and infinite cantrips plus lvl1 spells at lvl1... They should contribute much more reliably at low level, and with only bard progression in spells known and spells per day, they should be much slower to overtake tier3. Could you be more specific about a level or nerfed full caster class you foresee a problem with belonging in tier 3?

[limejuicepowder]

With the latest sugggestions, the only classes really on bard casting are the ones with 3/4 bab and real class features, just like bards. I don't think you could make a reasonable argument that they are being carried by melee.

The arcane casters get a bump in hit dice and infinite cantrips plus lvl1 spells at lvl1... They should contribute much more reliably at low level, and with only bard progression in spells known and spells per day, they should be much slower to overtake tier3. Could you be more specific about a level or nerfed full caster class you foresee a problem with belonging in tier 3?

Honestly, I would have a hard time putting sorc and wiz in tier 3 when they are low level (1-6 or so). They would get so few spells, and have virtually nothing to do otherwise, that I think it would make for play that would range from boring to frustrating, with a couple moments of brief celebration when they could contribute (better hope the target fails his save 'cause there went your only 2nd level spell for the day).

The bump in hit points is almost meaningless because armor still can't be worn. Attack bonus is low, weapon prof is low, and familiars are ironically rather crummy for wizards and sorcerers. Infinite cantrips? Great, now they are the resident magic item detector and flashlight (admittedly, daze and ray of frost would have their place, but they age VERY fast...like by level 2 they are not quite so awesome, and by level 3 they are closing in on useless). I like support roles quite a lot, but this is a stretch even for me.

Ultimately, I just don't want to mess with the system that much. I like the balance of classes in the low to mid levels, and targeting the worst offenders of imbalance, high level magic, is what I'm more comfortable with.

[sdream]

Ok, so you feel it does not go far enough to solve the problem, but is too much change to the system.

Step 1 - declare high level spells lost knowledge, which reduces some of the worst late game issues and everyone can get behind.

Step 2 - slap CoDzilla with the bard casting they always should have had, and no-one will pity them sitting up there on their mountain of other class features.

Step 3 - round off arcane casters a bit, making them suck less as lowbies and trend toward godhood more slowly.

I see nothing but upsides so far. Standardizing on a slower spell knowledge and slot progression (doesn't have to be exactly bard) could make it easy to buff other low classes.

Monk and paladin - gain a level of cleric casting every even class level, can freely multiclass with cleric and each other and stack these (replaces paladin casting). Monks only lose a couple class features in armor and paladins don't fall any more than clerics do.

Fighters gain a bonus feat each level which may come from the fighter list or ToB.

[ThiagoMartell]

Ultimately, I just don't want to mess with the system that much. I like the balance of classes in the low to mid levels, and targeting the worst offenders of imbalance, high level magic, is what I'm more comfortable with.

This, so much this. There broken spells at every level (power word pain, glitterdust, shivering touch, streamers), but you can usually work around that by either making those spells rare or just having common defenses against them (if magic has been around so long and everyone knows those spells are powerful, it's only logic there would be specific defenses against them).

[limejuicepowder]

Ok, so you feel it does not go far enough to solve the problem, but is too much change to the system.

Step 1 - declare high level spells lost knowledge, which reduces some of the worst late game issues and everyone can get behind.

Step 2 - slap CoDzilla with the bard casting they always should have had, and no-one will pity them sitting up there on their mountain of other class features.

Step 3 - round off arcane casters a bit, making them suck less as lowbies and trend toward godhood more slowly.

I see nothing but upsides so far. Standardizing on a slower spell knowledge and slot progression (doesn't have to be exactly bard) could make it easy to buff other low classes.

Monk and paladin - gain a level of cleric casting every even class level, can freely multiclass with cleric and each other and stack these (replaces paladin casting). Monks only lose a couple class features in armor and paladins don't fall any more than clerics do.

Fighters gain a bonus feat each level which may come from the fighter list or ToB.

Too much work xD

Thing is, I don't think the low classes necessarily have to be buffed*. Fighter, paladin, rogue, and monk are the four worst offenders of poor performance in core. Luckily, they have perfect replacements in crusader, warblade, and swordsage. Rogue can be replaced with factotum. Thus if I'm playing with a group of optimizers, they will just use ToB or factotum. If I'm not playing with optimizers, paladin, fighter, rogue, and monk will get by (with a little help perhaps) until the player is more familiar with the system and can 1) optimize to keep the weak classes relevent, or 2) switch to ToB.

As far as spell casters go, like I said before, I like the balance of power in the low to mid levels (plus, spellcasters are more unfair on paper than they are in a real game). Unless the player has a great deal of system mastery and is trying to be a jerk, mundanes can hang with the big boys for quite awhile, and even if the spell caster tends to be the all-star, the mundane with still have an important role to play in protecting the caster, dishing out the raw damage, and harassing enemy casters. I see no need to drastically change this until later, when high level spells makes mundanes 95% superfluous.

Occam's Razor principle: if there is a simple workable solution, I will take it over the complex one that might be slightly better.

*Note on this: while I think the classes don't necessarily have to be buffed, I do play with a handful of house rules that make a mundane's life a little easier.

[ericgrau]

Waiting until level 7 for 3rd level spells could be a problem, though that's only a small delay and using 2nd's isn't the end of the world. Otherwise it's fine. It doesn't "fix" anything and you still need players to play nice but it discourages casters a bit without making them totally unplayable.

Most lower level spells still work ok at higher levels, except maybe ray damage spells. Even then granting full caster level like the bard makes them so-so. Even area damage is still handy you just might need to wait for 3 targets instead of 2. Most utility spells are lower level so accessing them when needed shouldn't be hard. Or use scrolls. I've done a level 12 sorcerer in a party with up to 16s so I should know; it's only unbearable at low level.

Ya, go for it. Don't let players take it as permission for cheesy tricks but it should work fine.

One problem though: In a casual game prepared casters should still be 1 level ahead (but with fewer spells per day) because casual players don't swap their spell list often. Meaning spontaneous casters can mix and match and prepared can't (3 of that, 1 of this, 0 of that, metamagic these giving me effectively 5 max level spells known). Or make everyone one or the other.

A bard that picks the right spells can practically keep up with a sorcerer and he can still skillmonkey, buff the party, tumble and flank, wear light armor, etc. But these are less critical than spells. I'd give him -1 caster level and call it a day. Maybe -2 if you try -1 and it's not enough but I'm guessing -2 will be too much.

[Rubik]

I've never actually used it since I've never played to this level, but I (recently) decided that spells of 7th level and up aren't automatically available. The difference between this and what you said is casters maintain the same progression and spells per day, but it eliminates the most outrageously gamebreaking spells. If I ever DM'd a game that went high enough for this rule to matter, I would probably introduce 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells in the way artifacts are handled: incredibly rare and quest/campaign specific.

I like this fix more then all-round bard progression because it still allows the full casters to exist; if they are limited to bard spells per day, a gish is practically mandatory.I'd still go psion, I think, since most of the higher level powers kinda suck (with a few exceptions). I love the low level powers so much.

[sdream]

Ya, go for it. Don't let players take it as permission for cheesy tricks but it should work fine.

One problem though: In a casual game prepared casters should still be 1 level ahead (but with fewer spells per day) because casual players don't swap their spell list often. Meaning spontaneous casters can mix and match and prepared can't (3 of that, 1 of this, 0 of that, metamagic these giving me effectively 5 max level spells known). Or make everyone one or the other.


I prefer everyone spontaneous, as this drastically reduces paperwork and guesswork for players and GM, and eliminates some abusive 5 minute workdays for the tier1s to change all their class abilities for free.

Arcane casters (lacking the heavy class features of CoDzilla and bard) get +2 caster levels over the bard progression.

Wizard gets +1 (SLOWER THAN SORCERER due to extra class feats and features), but in a nod to their traditional bookiness and flexability can change their spells known by USING scrolls (as in actually casting them, so flexing has a cost)

[Ashtagon]

Originally I was thinking to bump down Bard casting but reconsidered. The full casters have stuff beyond their spells. Like Druid with their AC and turning into animals and stuff, Clerics with their turning, etc.

And wizards have familiars, so they too are balanced :smallconfused:

[ThiagoMartell]

And wizards have familiars, so they too are balanced :smallconfused:
I think he meant specialization, focused specialization, immediate magic, bonus feats from either the Wizard list or the Fighter list, animal companions or (you guessed) familiars.
I definitely missed a few, like the racial specific ones (elven generalist springs to mind).

[danzibr]

And wizards have familiars, so they too are balanced :smallconfused:
This has already been addressed.