Learn something new in 3.5

[Snowbluff]

I want to learn something new. I think you guys could help me out here.

Just so I have more stuff to work with.

Tell me something odd/obscure about this system and why you like (or hate) it! Could be a neat spell, or a quirky PrC, or an awesomely meaningful feat. :smallcool:

(Nevermind the spells, we have a thread for that, and I want to learn more about non-casters... er... rather, I'd rather hear more about pretty much anything else. Could be about casters, just not their spells. Er... unless the spell is important to the setup/build)

[ThiagoMartell]

Greensnake Nagas from Oriental Adventures are a kickass race. Only +1 LA, Str +2 and Dex +4 (had better stats but was nerfed by Dragon Magazine 318), humanoid (reptilian), poison, telepathy and alternate form.
You can get Mindsight at level 1 (ECL 2), enter Warshaper at level 4 (if you stick to a full bab class) and abuse the hell out of Venomfire. All for +1 LA.

[Snowbluff]

Greensnake Nagas from Oriental Adventures are a kickass race. Only +1 LA, Str +2 and Dex +4 (had better stats but was nerfed by Dragon Magazine 318), humanoid (reptilian), poison, telepathy and alternate form.
You can get Mindsight at level 1 (ECL 2), enter Warshaper at level 4 (if you stick to a full bab class) and abuse the hell out of Venomfire. All for +1 LA.

Wow, that is pretty cool! :D

Thanks for sharing.

If some of you are wondering what prompted this thread, I was the Souleater PrC from BoVD. Full BaB, all good saves, and some nifty energy drain shenanigans. Pretty cool overall! :smallsmile:

[Hirax]

"Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."

[Snowbluff]

"Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."

So, no Paladin items if it's also a Cleric spell of higher level? Wow, that actually kind of a downer. :P

Then again... potentially Ur-Priest... potentially Beholder Mage.. potentially!

[docnessuno]

Fiend of posession from FF is a little cool PrC
Methaphysical spellshaper (Book of erotic fantasy, but not linked to the splatbook's theme) is probably one of the most broken 3.5 compatible PRCs
Altought feat intensive, the Spelldancer PrC (Magic of Faerun) allows pretty much infinite free persists.
Disiple of Dispater (BoVD) allows you, among other things, to quadruple your weapon threat range and grants proficiency with all types of armor (hint: exotic armors)
Ruby knight Windicator is the only official pre-epic way to gain extra swift actions without getting extra turns.
Marrulurk (sandstorm) is possibly one of the most absurd Low-La (+1) races in the game, having 3 monstrous humanoids HDs (with full BaB) it grants 2 racial bonus feats, 2d6 SA, poison use, death attack, small size, +4 hide and move silently, and a grand total of +22 to stats.
Knight phantom (five nations) is like the eldritch knight. Only, better.

[Hirax]

So, no Paladin items if it's also a Cleric spell of higher level? Wow, that actually kind of a downer. :P

Then again... potentially Ur-Priest... potentially Beholder Mage.. potentially!

The other use of note is creating higher CL wondrous items that are more difficult to dispel, because once you reach the cost cap, additional added CL are free. Definitely an edge case, but now you know!

[TypoNinja]

One of my games, we rescued an elven infant while at sea. Being the party of high level adventurers we turned around and kitted the kid out with wondrous items. But all his buffs weren't the hilarious part.

We have him a ring of sustenance. This was almost immediately followed by the realization that if he didn't eat, no gas, no burping, no elimination of waste, no diaper changing, no 2 am feeding because the child couldn't wake up hungry.

Easiest child rearing experience ever.

[eggs]

A couple rarely-discussed things I've been sitting on recently:

Complete Warrior's Mancatcher weapon doesn't get much love, so it could be something new: In exchange for a proficiency feat, it gives a player a 2-handed reach weapon that auto-grapples anything the user's size or smaller. So Improved Grab on a weapon with a power attack ratio for one feat; so far not bad. But the real draw is that it adds any bonuses to the Mancatcher's attack roll to the user's grapple modifier. So throw Knowledge Devotion on an IC Bard, and turn those songs into wrassles. This was the basis for one of the ways I tried to put the Divine Mind to work.

And on the subject of grappling, someone was recently lamenting how hard it is to get a good constrict ability. Yuan-Ti grafts provide that ability for a few thousand gp - easily adding considerable damage to any focused grappler with a decent damage source (high strength, buffs, whatever).

This might be old news, but I recently looked at the humble Chill Touch in a new light - instead of a risky and relatively weak blasting/debuff power, it's a long duration self-buff for unarmed strikers and other spell channelers. This is appealing in a few ways: first, the damage effect stacks with unarmed strike damage, adding a rider effect of negative energy damage and strength debuffs; second, as a touch spell, the spell can be cast early in the day, and the charge held until it's needed without eating combat actions; third, as negative energy, damage resistances and immunities are relatively uncommon (there are undead, but the spell does something different and often scarier to them); fourth, as a level 1 spell, it takes metamagic really nicely - stick a Fell Drain or a Fell Frighten on it and whack your target a couple times in a flurry to stick them with a handful of negative levels or the panicked status very easily. Maybe mix in that Monk variant with Turning or Dread Necromancer and Death Devotion to really cross the line. [That one's more magician-focused, but maybe on an Enlightened Fist?]

And sticking on the Monk, it has a semi-obscure PrC in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde with a really neat ability to inflict Extraordinary Confusion on a monster it hits twice in one round, without a save. ("Semi-obscure" because the source is pretty out-there, but the PrC seems to fade in and out of recognition.)

[Koretsu]

The half-dragon template can be applied to dragons. A half-silver Great Wyrm Red is a thing that can happen. It will be immune to Fire, Vulnerable to Cold, Immune to Cold, and have both breath weapons. In Pathfinder, it gets even scarier with some GM embellishments.

[lord pringle]

The Mystic class from Dragonlance, and it's associated domains.

[killianh]

I've always found the entire Sha-ir class interesting.

Also I found that circle magic and ritual spells has very interesting implications yet wasn't expanded as well as it could have been.

[limejuicepowder]

race that I think is awesome but it never gets any mention: poison dusk lizard folk from mm3. Small size, +2 dex and con, -2 cha, 2 claws and a bite, 30 ft speed, +3 natural armor, +5 hide (in addition to small bonus), +4 balance, swim, jump, poison use, hold breath. All that for a +1 LA. I guess later in 3.5 the creators realized that having a slightly favorable ability score modifier wasn't enough to make up for lost levels.

They are brought up every once in awhile, but harpoons are pretty awesome too. I think they are from stormwrack. Good base damage with the add on of "grappling" opponents at range. Even better when explosive rune tags are attached to the harpoon - this is the basis for a sorcerer gish I once made.

[kardar233]

I've always found the entire Sha-ir class interesting.

Also I found that circle magic and ritual spells has very interesting implications yet wasn't expanded as well as it could have been.

Speaking of Sha'ir, they're one of the few classes that can benefit from both "+1 level of divine spellcasting class" and "+1 level of arcane spellcasting class" PrCs.

Also, Ghost-Faced Killer is an awesome PrC. Read the Frightful Attack ability and tell me that isn't great.

[Yora]

In 3.5e, the Caster Level listed with Magic Items is just a default suggestion. It is not the minimum for an item of that type. For items that don't replicate spells, like scrolls, wands, and potions, the caster level is important only for how vulnerable the item is against dispell magic and disjunction, but it does not affect costs so every spellcaster would set the maximum available to him.

But you only need to have the item creation feat and the required spells to craft the items. This becomes very important in E6 games, where it is assumed that there are no mortal spellcasters with a caster level greater than 6th, which means many items can only be created by powerful outsiders with spell-like abilities.
A +1 flaming blade can be made by 5th level wizards with a caster level of 5th, if they have the feat and can cast fireball.

Also: Psionics!

Freaking Psionics!

Ignore the shaved heads and tattoos and new age crystals and just see them as sorcerers. And you really have a damn good magic system, better than anything else ever in D&D.

[danzibr]

One of my games, we rescued an elven infant while at sea. Being the party of high level adventurers we turned around and kitted the kid out with wondrous items. But all his buffs weren't the hilarious part.

We have him a ring of sustenance. This was almost immediately followed by the realization that if he didn't eat, no gas, no burping, no elimination of waste, no diaper changing, no 2 am feeding because the child couldn't wake up hungry.

Easiest child rearing experience ever.
As the father of a young child (and expecting another), I wish this were possible.

[IdleMuse]

The Branch of Zivilyn is PrC that grants it's own casting, increasing one spell level per level (similar to the powerful Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage), but only up to level 5. And it requires you to be a plant first. Source: Revised Bestiary of Krynn, Dragonlance.

[Snowbluff]

The other use of note is creating higher CL wondrous items that are more difficult to dispel, because once you reach the cost cap, additional added CL are free. Definitely an edge case, but now you know!

Wow, that is awesome. :smallbiggrin:




Easiest child rearing experience ever.

Wow, I never would of thought to do that! :smalltongue:


The Branch of Zivilyn is PrC that grants it's own casting, increasing one spell level per level (similar to the powerful Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage), but only up to level 5. And it requires you to be a plant first. Source: Revised Bestiary of Krynn, Dragonlance.

Requires.. plant? Uh, how would one... go about being a plant?

[Doomboy911]

I think it's called plant form or plant shape it turns you into a sort of plant. Now for something I found cool. The frenzied berserker a barbarian class that goes into a more powerful form of frenzy that gives them an absolutely powerful amount of strength combined with the rage and with just the death ward spell you can't be killed until you're done with the frenzy.

Anyway know of a greater version of reduce person.

[Snowbluff]

I think it's called plant form or plant shape it turns you into a sort of plant. Now for something I found cool. The frenzied berserker a barbarian class that goes into a more powerful form of frenzy that gives them an absolutely powerful amount of strength combined with the rage and with just the death ward spell you can't be killed until you're done with the frenzy.

Anyway know of a greater version of reduce person.

Oh yeah! I had a FB in one of my parties (I ended up making all of the characters). He got a cannonball shot through his chest, and lived. I had to use a limited wish to patch him up afterwards, though. :smalltongue:

Here's a tip for undead. Take the Human Heritage feat (Races of Destiny?), to make your type human. You become immune to many things that affect undead (turning, holy water, which also makes you immune to water as a dry lich), while keeping your undead immunities (immunity to mind affecting, so no hold person or the like).

No Con score a problem? Faerie Mysteries Initiate can give you Int to HP to replace it! As an added bonus, your partner may qualify for the Lich-Loved feat, if you know what I mean.:smallwink:

[Urpriest]

Eunuch Warlock is one of only two PrCs to require Gender: Male. The other is from Dragon Magazine, and involves worshiping a guy who's basically the demon prince of misogyny.

[VGLordR2]

Requires.. plant? Uh, how would one... go about being a plant?

Forestkith Goblins can turn into various plants at will. Humorously enough, they are stuck in that form until they take damage or the sun sets.

And, speaking of odd goblins, there is the Dolgrim from one of the Eberron books. Dolgrim are essentially two goblins mashed together. Four arms, two mouths, two brains... and two conflicting personalities. Dolgrim are probably my favorite race to roleplay.

[Urpriest]

Forestkith Goblins can turn into various plants at will. Humorously enough, they are stuck in that form until they take damage or the sun sets.


If we're listing ways to get into that class, there's a plant race called Volodnyi (sp?) in Unapproachable East.

There are also spiders in Magic of Faerun that despite animal intelligence and no opposable thumbs to speak of are listed as LA +0 in the 3.5 update. Not even cohort-only, straight-up LA +0. On the other hand the Shalarin, which are basically merfolk with slightly different stats, never got an LA.

[Kir]

Divine denial feat: for iron will and 9 ranks in knowledge:religion, you get a +2 bonus to all your saves vs divinely cast spells. This is halfway decent. Then it mentions something awesome: you gain a will save versus ALL divinely cast NO-SAVE spells!!, including stuff like antimagic field! Also the +2 bonus the feat gives and the +2 bonus on will saves from iron will work on those saves.
Also, it leads to badass moments. Also, it does not make you a atheist, as you might expect, so you could be a cleric of a god and hate the gods.

[Cruiser1]

Divine denial feat: you gain a will save versus ALL divinely cast NO-SAVE spells!!, including stuff like antimagic field!
You only the save or save bonus versus divine spells that target you. Antimagic Field is an area spell, so you don't get to save against it. Although you would get a save against something like Dispel Magic (assuming it was a divine class like Cleric instead of an arcane class like Wizard that targeted you with it).

[ThiagoMartell]

If we're listing ways to get into that class, there's a plant race called Volodnyi (sp?) in Unapproachable East.

Volodni. Interesting abilities, but LA +2 hurts. They qualify for Rapidstrike, though.

[TheGeckoKing]

In Shadowdale - The Scouring of the Land, the book contains the Beast of Bane template, which gives you a Barghest's Feed ability-lite (Humanoid victims only) for the price of +2 LA. Combine it with Thrallherd, and you can effectively pimp-slap the basic rules of level gain for the price of 2 levels. Hell, you could even argue that creatures that have "Advancement: By character class" gain free class levels, but that's even stinkier cheese.

[Volthawk]

Eunuch Warlock is one of only two PrCs to require Gender: Male. The other is from Dragon Magazine, and involves worshiping a guy who's basically the demon prince of misogyny.

Similarly, there are five PrCs that require you to be female: Hathran (Player's Guide to Faerun) who are a part of the leadership of Rashemi (one of the FR countries), Beloved of Valarian (BoED) who are unicorn-focused, Swanmay (BoED) which are fey/wilderness-types that turn into swans, Yathrinshee (Player's Guide to Faerun again, but back in the appendix with the vile/exalted PrCs), which is pretty damn specific: Only drow females who worship Kiaransalee (the drow goddess of undeath) who also dual-cast can get in (oh, and you also need Lichloved), and Maiden of Pain (same places as Yathrinshee), who are the goddesses of the FR goddess of pain, and are, um...well, I think you can figure out the kinda stuff they get (although as an aside, this is the only PrC that comes to mind that actually gives you a drug addiction when you enter it).

[Urpriest]

Similarly, there are five PrCs that require you to be female: Hathran (Player's Guide to Faerun) who are a part of the leadership of Rashemi (one of the FR countries), Beloved of Valarian (BoED) who are unicorn-focused, Swanmay (BoED) which are fey/wilderness-types that turn into swans, Yathrinshee (Player's Guide to Faerun again, but back in the appendix with the vile/exalted PrCs), which is pretty damn specific: Only drow females who worship Kiaransalee (the drow goddess of undeath) who also dual-cast can get in (oh, and you also need Lichloved), and Maiden of Pain (same places as Yathrinshee), who are the goddesses of the FR goddess of pain, and are, um...well, I think you can figure out the kinda stuff they get (although as an aside, this is the only PrC that comes to mind that actually gives you a drug addiction when you enter it).

Six, you left out Oriental Adventures' Battle Maiden.

[Volthawk]

Six, you left out Oriental Adventures' Battle Maiden.

Hmm, seems the PrC list I was working off didn't include OA PrCs.

[IdleMuse]

AFB right now, but in terms of races that are plants, there's also the mushroom people from... MM2 possibly, with an LA listed in the update pdf? I think that's where they are.

[Agent 451]

Yep. Myconids did get LAs assigned to them in MMII, ranging from +2 to +6, on top of the 1 to 6 RHD that the various derivations have.

Edit: There's also the Needlefolk (which has +1 LA and 3 RHD), and Twig Blight in MMII (which has +1 LA and 1 RHD).

[Snowbluff]

Yep. Myconids did get LAs assigned to them in MMII, ranging from +2 to +6, on top of the 1 to 6 RHD that the various derivations have.

Edit: There's also the Needlefolk (which has +1 LA and 3 RHD), and Twig Blight in MMII (which has +1 LA and 1 RHD).

Uh, where are the LA for these? They don't seem to be listed...

[Volthawk]

Uh, where are the LA for these? They don't seem to be listed...

The update booklet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) for converting 3.0 stuff to 3.5 gives them LA as a part of the MMII update.

[TaiLiu]

I think it's called plant form or plant shape it turns you into a sort of plant. Now for something I found cool. The frenzied berserker a barbarian class that goes into a more powerful form of frenzy that gives them an absolutely powerful amount of strength combined with the rage and with just the death ward spell you can't be killed until you're done with the frenzy.

Anyway know of a greater version of reduce person.

Minute Form is an eighth level spell for a Wu Jen.

A Psychic Warrior can Augment Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) to make themselves even smaller.

[GreenSerpent]

If we're listing ways to get into that class, there's a plant race called Volodnyi (sp?) in Unapproachable East.

There are also spiders in Magic of Faerun that despite animal intelligence and no opposable thumbs to speak of are listed as LA +0 in the 3.5 update. Not even cohort-only, straight-up LA +0. On the other hand the Shalarin, which are basically merfolk with slightly different stats, never got an LA.

Dear god... I have a really nice idea or two now...

[Snowbluff]

There are also spiders in Magic of Faerun that despite animal intelligence and no opposable thumbs to speak of are listed as LA +0 in the 3.5 update..

Um... what page are the spiders on? I can't seem to find them in MoF.


Dear god... I have a really nice idea or two now...

That thee point! :smallbiggrin:

[Endarire]

Martial maneuvers & stances are useful for more than just their obvious combat applications (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13837268#post13837268). (It's a start. I'm taking suggestions!)

[Aharon]

The other use of note is creating higher CL wondrous items that are more difficult to dispel, because once you reach the cost cap, additional added CL are free. Definitely an edge case, but now you know!

Huh? If I'm reading that correctly, that's huge for Blastificers. I always thought you had to pay for the additional CL. Where's the quote from?

[Mithril Leaf]

Shalarin actually did indeed gain an LA. An LA of +0. If you ever make an underwater melee character, they're the best around. +4 strength and dexterity at no cost? Yes please.

[Mordokai]

Eunuch Warlock is one of only two PrCs to require Gender: Male. The other is from Dragon Magazine, and involves worshiping a guy who's basically the demon prince of misogyny.

Soconbetoth? Or is that incest?

[GreenSerpent]

Um... what page are the spiders on? I can't seem to find them in MoF.



That thee point! :smallbiggrin:

Page 87, I think. Or thereabouts.

[ThiagoMartell]

Shalarin actually did indeed gain an LA. An LA of +0. If you ever make an underwater melee character, they're the best around. +4 strength and dexterity at no cost? Yes please.

Wow, that's pretty cool.

[Snowbluff]

Page 87, I think. Or thereabouts.

Rarg! I can't find it! And I really want to play a spider, too!

[TopCheese]

One of my games, we rescued an elven infant while at sea. Being the party of high level adventurers we turned around and kitted the kid out with wondrous items. But all his buffs weren't the hilarious part.

We have him a ring of sustenance. This was almost immediately followed by the realization that if he didn't eat, no gas, no burping, no elimination of waste, no diaper changing, no 2 am feeding because the child couldn't wake up hungry.

Easiest child rearing experience ever.

Sooo about this...

They fed some baby animals via IV, never let them feed from their mothers (dogs, cats, etc etc).

What they found out is that they didn't know how to eat and wouldn't eat once you got rid of the IV without a LOT of coaching.

So if that kid ever looses the ring you may have doomed it... So yeah better teach it to eat before sending it to a foster home/orphanage ...

[Urpriest]

Rarg! I can't find it! And I really want to play a spider, too!

The Hairy Spider is in Monsters of Faerun under Spiders. It was updated here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a), which gave it LA +0.


Soconbetoth? Or is that incest?

No, I don't think Soconbetoth is particularly misogynistic, at least according to a cursory Wikipedia glance. I was thinking of this guy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostchtchie)


Shalarin actually did indeed gain an LA. An LA of +0. If you ever make an underwater melee character, they're the best around. +4 strength and dexterity at no cost? Yes please.

Ooh, I had missed that. Those are indeed some very nice stats.

[laeZ1]

Unless it's been eratta'd, in 3.5 you can sneak attack with any weapon so long as you fulfil the other requirements.

Lance-wielding rogue

[darksolitaire]

Six, you left out Oriental Adventures' Battle Maiden.

Seven, Sword Dancer of Eilistraee would like a word with you.

Edit: Eunuch Warlock from OA and Eldritch Master from DragMag 280 have unique way of adding new spell levels to your existing class. You can accelerate your existing spellcasting with Eldritch Master to, for example, get 6th level spells slots as Duskblade (Duskblade 13/ Eldritch Master 6) or 10th level spell slots as Sublime Chord (Bard 8/ Eldritch Master 2 /Sublime Chord 9 Eldritch Master 1).

[Theoboldi]

The Charlatan (http://http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=jc8ji8fuu9l1oqidgtgq0dc314&topic=6543.0), one of my personal favorite PrCs ever. It basically lets you pretend to be a caster, without ever being able to cast a single spell just by lying well enough. You get no-save enchantments by telling people that you enchanted them, get to make enemies shaken by boasting about yourself, cast (sadly rather weak) fake spells, and even make entire towns hate someone by telling lies about them. What's that, DM? Your BBEG is the king of this country? Let me just roll the dice..Okay, I think that should be enough to start a rebellion somewhere.

Sadly it's a rather weak class, and can't do much against enemies that can't understand it. I really hope it's used in the IC at some point, though.

[Urpriest]

Seven, Sword Dancer of Eilistraee would like a word with you.

Edit: Eunuch Warlock from OA and Eldritch Master from DragMag 280 have unique way of adding new spell levels to your existing class. You can accelerate your existing spellcasting with Eldritch Master to, for example, get 6th level spells slots as Duskblade (Duskblade 13/ Eldritch Master 6) or 10th level spell slots as Sublime Chord (Bard 8/ Eldritch Master 2 /Sublime Chord 9 Eldritch Master 1).

Eunuch Warlock actually doesn't work that way anymore, it was updated to 3.5 in an issue of Dragon and they gave it normal casting advancement.

[MrLemon]

Just flipped through BoED and found the Anointed Knight. The main ability of this class is giving yourself and your weapon fancy abilities throgh oils.

Her level plus Charisma modifier determines the choices available to herNote how it doesn't say class level. Now let's look at what you get at level+CHA>=11:
Inspired Strike: Three times per day, the knight can take a single extra attack at her highest attack bonus as a free action.Emphasis by me.
Also note that you can take all 3 of said attacks in the same round, or when moving, or possibly spring attacking/flyby attacking (not sure if you can take free actions here)

[Venger]

I think it's called plant form or plant shape it turns you into a sort of plant. Now for something I found cool. The frenzied berserker a barbarian class that goes into a more powerful form of frenzy that gives them an absolutely powerful amount of strength combined with the rage and with just the death ward spell you can't be killed until you're done with the frenzy.

Anyway know of a greater version of reduce person.

Volodni from unapproachable east is probably the easiest way to get the plant type. LA 2, and a whole ton of blanket immunities and other cool stuff.

the only way to reduce size more than once is the compression power. transparency allows the use of UMD for dorjes, so just cast that on yourself (ask your DM if you are allowed to augment with dorjes, treating their 50 uses as 50xbase cost in PP instead, allowing you 50 base compression or a smaller amount of augmented ones) I do not remember.

all other things that decrease size (reduce person and the great and small feat) are called out as not working/stacking with other stuff that reduces your size.

however. one dirty trick you can use is to reduce person somehow and then wild shape into a really little animal. wild shape is keyed off alternate form, thus your type remains unchanged, so (if humanoid) you're still eligible for reduce person. cast reduce person on yourself. wild shape into, for example, a badger. congratulations, you are now tiny.

one combo I'm especially fond of is warforged juggernaut before frenzied berserker. ignore the nonlethal damage that you take while frenzying, and ignore the fatigue/exhaustion that comes afterwards. win D&D. plus your abysmal will save can't be turned against you as easily as with a traditional FB with charm/dominate since you're immune to mind affecting

[TypoNinja]

Wow, that's pretty cool.

Yea that's because they don't get to breathe air. A significant drawback if you ever want to leave the water. That's the aquatic subtype for ya.


Sooo about this...

They fed some baby animals via IV, never let them feed from their mothers (dogs, cats, etc etc).

What they found out is that they didn't know how to eat and wouldn't eat once you got rid of the IV without a LOT of coaching.

So if that kid ever looses the ring you may have doomed it... So yeah better teach it to eat before sending it to a foster home/orphanage ...

Well, those were animals instead of people, I think we can get away with just explaining to the kid later, even if not, he's quite welcome to keep the ring :D

[Akto]

Yea that's because they don't get to breath air. A significant drawback if you ever want to leave the water. That's the aquatic subtype for ya.

Could dragonborn solve this?

[TypoNinja]

Could dragonborn solve this?

I'm.. not sure.


Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids
with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes
they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For
all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race.

So you are still aquatic, that is breath water instead of air, but now the question is does dragonblood grant the ability to breath air or not if you didn't already have it.

[eggs]

At worst, the Amphibious template turns it to +4 Str +2 Dex: still not bad

[HunterOfJello]

The Buffeting Fists elemental graft from Magic of Eberron allows you to deflect arrows as if you had the Deflect Arrow feat. The Deflect Arrow feat only allows you to deflect 1 arrow/round, but the Buffeting Fists graft allows you to deflect 1 + Dexterity Mod (min. 1) Arrows per round. This costs a character 13000gp and 4hp, but can make a character essentially immune to ranged weapon attacks.

I've always thought of buffeting fists as an amazing graft and am always surprised when it doesn't appear in high dex builds.

[Venger]

Yea that's because they don't get to breathe air. A significant drawback if you ever want to leave the water. That's the aquatic subtype for ya.



Well, those were animals instead of people, I think we can get away with just explaining to the kid later, even if not, he's quite welcome to keep the ring :D
stormwrack's amphibious template is LA 0, so it's pretty awesome.

Any character is capable of taking a 1 level dip in thrallherd, gaining the thrallherd's kickass thrall, a cohort that's your level -1, never quits or gives up, and respawns for free:

take "telepathic affinity" at any time. you can now manifest mindlink as a psilike ability using your HD/2 as your ML. at any point after 10 (thus ML 5), take a dip in thrallherd. you now have a thrall. congratulations.

[Snowbluff]

I'm.. not sure.



So you are still aquatic, that is breath water instead of air, but now the question is does dragonblood grant the ability to breath air or not if you didn't already have it.

He means dragonborn of bahamut, which would not change your type.

Final stat are +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con.

Amphibious Dragonborn had +4 str, +2 con. Pretty sweet over all.

[Malroth]

Smallest playable character ever. Primordial Half-Giant Warlock 12 crafts 5 or more scrolls of "return to nature" and casts them on himself. Instantaneous duration permanent effect shrink on a giant that stacks with itself. Voluntarily fail your saves and you can be running around as an Ant sized "giant"

[Venger]

Smallest playable character ever. Primordial Half-Giant Warlock 12 crafts 5 or more scrolls of "return to nature" and casts them on himself. Instantaneous duration permanent effect shrink on a giant that stacks with itself. Voluntarily fail your saves and you can be running around as an Ant sized "giant"

>take "confound the big folk"
>use wand of "fell the greatest foe"
>win D&D

[TypoNinja]

stormwrack's amphibious template is LA 0, so it's pretty awesome. .

Well hell, with that, yea it freaking is.

[Andezzar]

Not sure if that fits the requirements but I just found something I've never seen before:


When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

[TuggyNE]

Not sure if that fits the requirements but I just found something I've never seen before:

That particular snippet bears repeating. There's also a corollary: divine casters can similarly reserve slots. The SRD has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n):
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

[Wings of Peace]

Greensnake Nagas from Oriental Adventures are a kickass race. Only +1 LA, Str +2 and Dex +4 (had better stats but was nerfed by Dragon Magazine 318), humanoid (reptilian), poison, telepathy and alternate form.
You can get Mindsight at level 1 (ECL 2), enter Warshaper at level 4 (if you stick to a full bab class) and abuse the hell out of Venomfire. All for +1 LA.

It's worth noting that their telepathy technically has infinite range since it can be used to communicate by Greensnake Naga no matter how far apart they are as I recall.

[Mithril Leaf]

It's worth noting that their telepathy technically has infinite range since it can be used to communicate by Greensnake Naga no matter how far apart they are as I recall.

No, you don't use it for communication. You pick up mindsight. Silly lad, not wanting infinite range telepathic sight.

[Snowbluff]

It's worth noting that their telepathy technically has infinite range since it can be used to communicate by Greensnake Naga no matter how far apart they are as I recall.


No, you don't use it for communication. You pick up mindsight. Silly lad, not wanting infinite range telepathic sight.

o.0

Now to find a spell I can hit from at that range.

EDIT: NO! Archery. Cragtop Archer Psychic Warrior with the power that increases the size of range increments, and something to ignore concealment.

[Darrin]

Greensnake Nagas from Oriental Adventures are a kickass race. Only +1 LA, Str +2 and Dex +4 (had better stats but was nerfed by Dragon Magazine 318), humanoid (reptilian), poison, telepathy and alternate form.


I was going to say the type changed to Monstrous Humanoids, but apparently the type was only changed on the larger-sized Chameleon, Asp, and Cobra nagas. So... the greensnakes are still humanoid. Odd.

The only large-sized humanoid officially still in print in 3.5: Hornhead Saurials in the Serpent Kingdoms Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040717a). Large Humanoid (Reptilian), 2 RHD, LA +2, +2 Str, +2 Int, NA +5, Claw/Claw/Tail.


Smallest playable character ever. Primordial Half-Giant Warlock 12 crafts 5 or more scrolls of "return to nature" and casts them on himself. Instantaneous duration permanent effect shrink on a giant that stacks with itself. Voluntarily fail your saves and you can be running around as an Ant sized "giant"

Also from Oriental Adventures, you can play as a fine-sized sparrow via Hengeyokai. Dragon #318 made them LA +0. So a Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock 1 has an AC 24, and gets a +14 attack bonus on all their ranged touch attacks (+8 size, +6 Dex). Also, in medium-sized hybrid form, it has a 20' fly speed.

[ThiagoMartell]

Also from Oriental Adventures, you can play as a fine-sized sparrow via Hengeyokai. Dragon #318 made them LA +0. So a Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock 1 has an AC 24, and gets a +14 attack bonus on all their ranged touch attacks (+8 size, +6 Dex). Also, in medium-sized hybrid form, it has a 20' fly speed.

You need Surrogate Spellcasting, though. And it requires Wis 13 while Hengeyokai get -2 to Wis.


It's worth noting that their telepathy technically has infinite range since it can be used to communicate by Greensnake Naga no matter how far apart they are as I recall.
Not at all, it's only 30ft range.

[karkus]

So, no Paladin items if it's also a Cleric spell of higher level? Wow, that actually kind of a downer. :P

What? No, that's not right... what it means that you could have any person make the item, and the cost is dependent on them. You could have an Assassin craft a Ring of Glibness (which is a total game-breaker, FYI) at a 7th-level caster level, and a 4th-level spell/effect, or you can have it even cheaper by having a Bard make it at a 7th-level caster level and a 3rd-level spell/effect.

[Darrin]

You need Surrogate Spellcasting, though. And it requires Wis 13 while Hengeyokai get -2 to Wis.


That's debatable. Invocations are SLAs that require somatic gestures and are subject to ASF. Per the PHB, somatic gestures require a hand. However, the sparrow has the equivalent of a hand: either a wing or a clawed foot that could provide somatic gestures. The rules don't define what a "hand" is or specify when a particular creature does or does not have one. Other non-humanoid creatures (dragons, for example) can apparently use claws/talons/etc. to provide somatic gestures without taking a feat.

[Kazyan]

I doubt a wing could cut it without Surrogate Spellcasting. The talons, maybe, but it's not unreasonable to ask that if you're flying, Fine, and have an all-day blastable at level 1, you have to pay a feat tax.

On topic, Sun Soul Monk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4) exists and would be the one of the cruelest Iron Chef ingredients in the game. EDIT: Though that brilliant energy fist is pretty cool.

[Igneel]

Also from Oriental Adventures, you can play as a fine-sized sparrow via Hengeyokai. Dragon #318 made them LA +0. So a Hengeyokai Sparrow Warlock 1 has an AC 24, and gets a +14 attack bonus on all their ranged touch attacks (+8 size, +6 Dex). Also, in medium-sized hybrid form, it has a 20' fly speed.
If your able to squeeze it in, the Blade Bravo PrC (Races of Stone) has an Adaptation section to disregard the Gnome race requirement for a Small or smaller race. Some of my Dm's allowed it for the Sparrow and you can get more Dodge bonus against bigger things along with to hit.


Another thing I've noticed is some 'templates' from DMGII (I've been looking through it recently) that has things such as Multiple-limbs (arms or legs) for +2 LA, or some have SLA's at will/per day that seem quite interesting...

[ThiagoMartell]

That's debatable. Invocations are SLAs that require somatic gestures and are subject to ASF. Per the PHB, somatic gestures require a hand. However, the sparrow has the equivalent of a hand: either a wing or a clawed foot that could provide somatic gestures. The rules don't define what a "hand" is or specify when a particular creature does or does not have one. Other non-humanoid creatures (dragons, for example) can apparently use claws/talons/etc. to provide somatic gestures without taking a feat.

Only when it comes to inherent abilities. Surrogate Spellcasting exists exactly for this. If invocations didn't require somatic components you could have a point, but they specifically require it. I think Surrogate Spellcasting and Natural Spell close the deal - otherwise, those feats would not be necessary at all.

[TiaC]

The Charlatan (http://http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=jc8ji8fuu9l1oqidgtgq0dc314&topic=6543.0), one of my personal favorite PrCs ever. It basically lets you pretend to be a caster, without ever being able to cast a single spell just by lying well enough. You get no-save enchantments by telling people that you enchanted them, get to make enemies shaken by boasting about yourself, cast (sadly rather weak) fake spells, and even make entire towns hate someone by telling lies about them. What's that, DM? Your BBEG is the king of this country? Let me just roll the dice..Okay, I think that should be enough to start a rebellion somewhere.

Sadly it's a rather weak class, and can't do much against enemies that can't understand it. I really hope it's used in the IC at some point, though.
The coolest thing to do with this is to use Puppet Master in a city with a Zeitgeist from Cityscape. It gives you a CR 23 toady to attack anyone you don't like. Then, you can take credit for everything.

[TheGeckoKing]

Here's a quick one: The Malaugrym has 5 Outsider HD, +6 LA, and at-will Shapechange at CL 20. Silly WotC, throwing LA on things that shouldn't have it (See: Sarrukh).

[Mithril Leaf]

Not at all, it's only 30ft range.

This is arguable. On the one hand, they get to communicate at a range of 30 feet. On the other, they get to access the information stored in their hive mind at any distance, even across planes.

[ThiagoMartell]

This is arguable. On the one hand, they get to communicate at a range of 30 feet. On the other, they get to access the information stored in their hive mind at any distance, even across planes.

Well, there are no rules for tapping onto that info on Oriental Adventures. RAI, it shouldn't even work on Mindsight - it just happens to be called Telepathy.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, there are no rules for tapping onto that info on Oriental Adventures. RAI, it shouldn't even work on Mindsight - it just happens to be called Telepathy.

It is what it is, take it for what you will. Technically named telepathy though.

[TheGeckoKing]

How on earth do you roleplay infinite Minsight, anyway?

[ThiagoMartell]

It is what it is, take it for what you will. Technically named telepathy though.

Yeah, my point is just that a range of 30ft is RAW. Infinite range requires using fluff as rules, which might cut in some places, but this is already going blatantly against RAI, so it gets cheesy really fast.

[Igneel]

How on earth do you roleplay infinite Minsight, anyway?

Paranoid maybe? Always knowing were everything is from the lowest 1 Int to the highest Int, always feeling surrounded to some extent...

[TuggyNE]

How on earth do you roleplay infinite Minsight, anyway?

Suffer ALL the migraines! :smalltongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Here's a quick one: The Malaugrym has 5 Outsider HD, +6 LA, and at-will Shapechange at CL 20. Silly WotC, throwing LA on things that shouldn't have it (See: Sarrukh).

Meh, I'd argue that phaerimm are at least as bad, and worse than Sarrukh.

[Venger]

Meh, I'd argue that phaerimm are at least as bad, and worse than Sarrukh.

do they have manipulate form too?

[Kuulvheysoon]

do they have manipulate form too?

No... but Hatchlings (the youngest available) have a single RHD and I believe an LA of +2. They get free sorceror innate spellcasting equal to their HD. And it stacks with any sorceror levels. Say hello to Time Stop at ECL 10.

Oh, and those spells? They're all cast as SLAs, not spells.

[Snowbluff]

No... but Hatchlings (the youngest available) have a single RHD and I believe an LA of +2. They get free sorceror innate spellcasting equal to their HD. And it stacks with any sorceror levels. Say hello to Time Stop at ECL 10.

Oh, and those spells? They're all cast as SLAs, not spells.

Who? The phaerimm, the malaugrym, or the sarrukh? :smallconfused:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Who? The phaerimm, the malaugrym, or the sarrukh? :smallconfused:

The phaerimm cast as SLAs. Which is really nice for those spells that have a material or XP component.

[TheGeckoKing]

No... but Hatchlings (the youngest available) have a single RHD and I believe an LA of +2. They get free sorceror innate spellcasting equal to their HD. And it stacks with any sorceror levels. Say hello to Time Stop at ECL 10.

Oh, and those spells? They're all cast as SLAs, not spells.

I thought that the relevant text said Caster Level, because then that trick wouldn't work. Or at least, that's what my copy of LEoF says. Still, effectively giving up 1 level of spellcasting for all your spells being SLA's is cool.

tl;dr: If you want a broken option to use for your character, go read a Forgotten Realms book. Any one will do.

[ThiagoMartell]

No... but Hatchlings (the youngest available) have a single RHD and I believe an LA of +2. They get free sorceror innate spellcasting equal to their HD. And it stacks with any sorceror levels. Say hello to Time Stop at ECL 10.

Oh, and those spells? They're all cast as SLAs, not spells.

I'm pretty sure it means equal to racial HD.

[willpell]

Also, it does not make you a atheist, as you might expect, so you could be a cleric of a god and hate the gods.

One part Stockholm Syndrome, two parts "I hate my job but who can afford to be unemployed in this economy?".


stormwrack's amphibious template is LA 0, so it's pretty awesome.

Shalarin aside, the template doesn't do much; -2 Dex in exchange for a swim speed and ability to breathe air and water is a fair trade, but hardly "awesome" except in certain campaigns (where I believe they advise giving it an LA because it's more useful now).


That particular snippet bears repeating. There's also a corollary: divine casters can similarly reserve slots. The SRD has this to say (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n):

I fail to see how this makes sense with the "time of day" requirement. To me, that says that if you pray for spells at dawn, you cannot later pray for more spells until the next dawn.

[TuggyNE]

I fail to see how this makes sense with the "time of day" requirement. To me, that says that if you pray for spells at dawn, you cannot later pray for more spells until the next dawn.

My interpretation is that the act of refreshing your mind to prepare spells, and the act of actually filling slots with spells that you prepare, are not the same thing; you can only refresh your mind in this way once per day, and only at the right time (for divine casters). This is closely analogous to the psionic manifesters' and spontaneous casters' need to spend a few minutes after resting to refresh their mind and regain spell slots/power points.

Naturally, then, you can only cast one "set" of spells per day, but you can progressively determine exactly what that set is by spending extra time to prepare.

However, I'm open to another interpretation that doesn't ignore that clause; a good RAW reading shouldn't ignore any part of the text without unusually good reason.

[willpell]

However, I'm open to another interpretation that doesn't ignore that clause; a good RAW reading shouldn't ignore any part of the text without unusually good reason.

Heh. Well in that case it's clear that Wotco often didn't perform a good RAW reading prior to writing more RAW....

[Andezzar]

Well the problem is, if you say the cleric cannot later fill spell slots you kind of circumvent the permission to "not have to prepare all his spells at once." (PHB p. 180) If you only have the choice of preparing or not preparing at a specified time, "at once" makes no sense. Additionally the rules only forbid to later "fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell." (PHB p. 180) Not preparing a spell is neither having cast it nor abandoning it.

[TuggyNE]

Well the problem is, if you say the cleric cannot later fill spell slots you kind of circumvent the permission to "not have to prepare all his spells at once." (PHB p. 180) If you only have the choice of preparing or not preparing at a specified time, "at once" makes no sense. Additionally the rules only forbid to later "fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell." (PHB p. 180) Not preparing a spell is neither having cast it nor abandoning it.

Yes, that's the clause I was referring to (which willpell already acknowledged; no need to beat a dead horse, as it were :smallwink:).


Heh. Well in that case it's clear that Wotco often didn't perform a good RAW reading prior to writing more RAW....

:smallamused: Well I take that for granted at this point. :smallsigh:

[Callum]

My interpretation is that the act of refreshing your mind to prepare spells, and the act of actually filling slots with spells that you prepare, are not the same thing; you can only refresh your mind in this way once per day, and only at the right time (for divine casters)...

Naturally, then, you can only cast one "set" of spells per day, but you can progressively determine exactly what that set is by spending extra time to prepare.
Yes, I think that's the only interpretation that makes sense of the text without ignoring some bits. As I posted in response to Andezzar's question about this in the 3.5 Q&A thread, the special edition of the PH adds a sentence to make it clear that a divine spellcaster can leave spell slots open to be filled later:

A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. He can leave some of his spell slots open in order to fill them later, just as a wizard can. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

[willpell]

Special edition? Is that the newly republished one that I heard was coming out this year?

[Callum]

Special edition? Is that the newly republished one that I heard was coming out this year?
No, it was a reprint during the 3.5 era at WotC that included errata and was released in a leather-bound edition (http://rpggeek.com/image/508409/players-handbook). The ones scheduled for later this year will presumably have even more errata included.

[Snowbluff]

Divine Insight is an insight bonus, while Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) is competence bonus.

That's right. For 2 level slots of 2nd level, you can have a 25+CL bonus to any skill. :smallbiggrin:

Even better, Guidance is not dependent on CL, so go make a wand of it!

[Malimar]

Go get your copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Open it up to page 91. Now consult page 92. :smallbiggrin:

(I'd love to know if there's actually any shenanigans you can pull with that, though I doubt it. AFAIK, it's just funny.)

[willpell]

Go get your copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Open it up to page 91. Now consult page 92. :smallbiggrin:

(I'd love to know if there's actually any shenanigans you can pull with that, though I doubt it. AFAIK, it's just funny.)

Detect Psionics? What exactly are you getting at?

[NoldorForce]

Detect Psionics? What exactly are you getting at?Deja Vu is printed on both pages as a deliberate joke.

[willpell]

Here's something you probably didn't know: even if your character never goes near the water, sharkskin armor is one of the best light armor types. Compared to spiked studded leather, it weighs half as much (hello, Strength penalty), lets you use 1 higher Dex bonus to AC (not that the difference between 5 and 6 is important to most characters, but Githzerai would love it), and most importantly, has only 10% arcane spell failure chance, which is probably an acceptible risk for a battlemage type who usually doesn't cast in combat. All this for only 10 more gold! And on top of it you get a situational but significant bonus to Escape Artist checks (which at most has a -1 ACP to offset it slightly, and that's if you didn't spring for the Masterwork version). Plus it's not metal so a Druid can wear it. Definitely one of the better Light armors.

[nedz]

In 3.5e, the Caster Level listed with Magic Items is just a default suggestion. It is not the minimum for an item of that type. For items that don't replicate spells, like scrolls, wands, and potions, the caster level is important only for how vulnerable the item is against dispell magic and disjunction, but it does not affect costs so every spellcaster would set the maximum available to him.

But you only need to have the item creation feat and the required spells to craft the items. This becomes very important in E6 games, where it is assumed that there are no mortal spellcasters with a caster level greater than 6th, which means many items can only be created by powerful outsiders with spell-like abilities.
A +1 flaming blade can be made by 5th level wizards with a caster level of 5th, if they have the feat and can cast fireball.
Do you have a source for this, because it seems to directly contradict the following.

For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level...

Yes, I think that's the only interpretation that makes sense of the text without ignoring some bits. As I posted in response to Andezzar's question about this in the 3.5 Q&A thread, the special edition of the PH adds a sentence to make it clear that a divine spellcaster can leave spell slots open to be filled later:
We had a whole thread discussing this point a week or so ago. We came to the conclusion that the RAW are ambiguous and self-contradictory.

[kitcik]

Here's something you probably didn't know: even if your character never goes near the water, sharkskin armor is one of the best light armor types. Compared to spiked studded leather, it weighs half as much (hello, Strength penalty), lets you use 1 higher Dex bonus to AC (not that the difference between 5 and 6 is important to most characters, but Githzerai would love it), and most importantly, has only 10% arcane spell failure chance, which is probably an acceptible risk for a battlemage type who usually doesn't cast in combat. All this for only 10 more gold! And on top of it you get a situational but significant bonus to Escape Artist checks (which at most has a -1 ACP to offset it slightly, and that's if you didn't spring for the Masterwork version). Plus it's not metal so a Druid can wear it. Definitely one of the better Light armors.

I had never thought about this until a couple of months ago when my 10-year-old daughter finally decided she wanted to play D&D. She wanted a summoner druid and I was helping her with character build when I ran across sharkskin armor. She's still wearing it.

[willpell]

We came to the conclusion that the RAW are ambiguous and self-contradictory.

In other news: CAUTION: Product is hot after heating.


I had never thought about this until a couple of months ago when my 10-year-old daughter finally decided she wanted to play D&D. She wanted a summoner druid and I was helping her with character build when I ran across sharkskin armor. She's still wearing it.

Shell and Chitin armors are also pretty good for anyone who can't or doesn't want to wear metal, as shell has a lower ACP than Hide (though, oddly, a more ungenerous DEX cap), while Chitin provides more AC. Hide's only advantage is being cheap (and the higher DEX cap versus Shell, which is only 10 more than Hide, while Chitin might be out of a level 1 druid's price range). Sadly, Cord armor is 100% worthless; it exists only so you can say "there's no leatherworking in this society".

[Snowbluff]

Keeping in line with nifty armor stuff:

Dastana in the OA. +1 AC that explicitly stacks with certain armor (Like Chainshirt). A nice option for a light armor user to increase AC, since the Enhancement bonuses to Armor type AC can stack.

[ThiagoMartell]

Keeping in line with nifty armor stuff:

Dastana in the OA. +1 AC that explicitly stacks with certain armor (Like Chainshirt). A nice option for a light armor user to increase AC, since the Enhancement bonuses to Armor type AC can stack.

There is also chahar-aina, from the same book.

[trollburgers]

Only when it comes to inherent abilities. Surrogate Spellcasting exists exactly for this. If invocations didn't require somatic components you could have a point, but they specifically require it. I think Surrogate Spellcasting and Natural Spell close the deal - otherwise, those feats would not be necessary at all.

I'm curious about this... If a non-humanoid can cast spells as a level whatever class, and they advance and take a level in that spellcasting class, does that mean they all of a sudden need the Surrogate Spellcasting feat to cast their spells? I don't know if there is an actual example, but lets pretend.

10HD Abomination (Look-Ma-No-Handsian); casts spells as a 10th level sorcerer. By RAW, the abomination does not need hands to use the somatic components of its spells:


A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body.

If said abomination advanced and took a level of Sorcerer (becoming a Look-Ma-No-Handsian Sorcerer 1), it would be able to cast as a 11th level sorcerer. What does that mean for its somatic requirements? Does it now need Surrogate Spellcasting to cast its spells? Or do you rule that it basically gets Surrogate Spellcasting as a bonus feat?

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm curious about this... If a non-humanoid can cast spells as a level whatever class, and they advance and take a level in that spellcasting class, does that mean they all of a sudden need the Surrogate Spellcasting feat to cast their spells? I don't know if there is an actual example, but lets pretend.
No, they don't. I'm pretty sure this is specifically addressed in the Monster Manual.

[trollburgers]

No, they don't. I'm pretty sure this is specifically addressed in the Monster Manual.

I was looking at the SRD, and I didn't see any mention that it only applied to inherent magic (such as a Rakshasa's sorcerer spells). It simply stated what I quoted above, which would seem to render Surrogate Spellcasting moot.

An awakened porcupine could cast its spells by shaking its quills in a provocative fashion...

[TypoNinja]

Here's something you probably didn't know: even if your character never goes near the water, sharkskin armor is one of the best light armor types. Compared to spiked studded leather, it weighs half as much (hello, Strength penalty), lets you use 1 higher Dex bonus to AC (not that the difference between 5 and 6 is important to most characters, but Githzerai would love it), and most importantly, has only 10% arcane spell failure chance, which is probably an acceptible risk for a battlemage type who usually doesn't cast in combat. All this for only 10 more gold! And on top of it you get a situational but significant bonus to Escape Artist checks (which at most has a -1 ACP to offset it slightly, and that's if you didn't spring for the Masterwork version). Plus it's not metal so a Druid can wear it. Definitely one of the better Light armors.

One of the Dragon magazines introduces Master craft items, its extra options for masterworked items beyond just the usual +1 to hit. One of them is Caster Armor. Take another 5% off the ASF. Also comes with goodies like Reinforced (+1 AC), Segmented (+1 dex), Lightweight (20% lighter).

It gets really expensive, but almost none of the abilities are mutually exclusive.

[willpell]

One of the Dragon magazines introduces Master craft items, its extra options for masterworked items beyond just the usual +1 to hit. One of them is Caster Armor. Take another 5% off the ASF. Also comes with goodies like Reinforced (+1 AC), Segmented (+1 dex), Lightweight (20% lighter).

It gets really expensive, but almost none of the abilities are mutually exclusive.

That seems like it would be VERY useful. Do you happen to have the exact issue number so that I can ebay it (or find out if I already own it)?

[Mithril Leaf]

That seems like it would be VERY useful. Do you happen to have the exact issue number so that I can ebay it (or find out if I already own it)?

I second this notion, I'd love to know what number it's in.

[ThiagoMartell]

I was looking at the SRD, and I didn't see any mention that it only applied to inherent magic (such as a Rakshasa's sorcerer spells). It simply stated what I quoted above, which would seem to render Surrogate Spellcasting moot.

An awakened porcupine could cast its spells by shaking its quills in a provocative fashion...

When did porcupines gain inherent casting (a rakshasa has hands, btw)? I don't see how that is relevant.
A porcupine using his quills to cast spells is EXACTLY what Surrogate Spellcasting does. It's also what Natural Spell does. It can be done - but you need a feat to do it.

[TypoNinja]

I second this notion, I'd love to know what number it's in.

#358, yea for Google image search. Couldn't remember the number, but cover art is quite memorable. :D Says Master Crafting right on the cover. Unless I'm seriously mistaken that's it.

http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/TSR/TSRDRG358_500.jpeg

Sad bit of irony, this thread is the top result for the text search I tried >_> <_< >_>

Edit: Cause cover art is pretty.

[trollburgers]

When did porcupines gain inherent casting (a rakshasa has hands, btw)? I don't see how that is relevant.
A porcupine using his quills to cast spells is EXACTLY what Surrogate Spellcasting does. It's also what Natural Spell does. It can be done - but you need a feat to do it.

Sorry, I should have been clearer in my post. MM does not specify that a non-humanoid using its body to cast spells is limited to inherent magic. That quote is under the heading "Spellcasting".

I included the extraneous part about Rakshasas as simply an example of a creature with inherent magic.

If you could source me where it says otherwise, that would be great.

[ThiagoMartell]

Sorry, I should have been clearer in my post. MM does not specify that a non-humanoid using its body to cast spells is limited to inherent magic. That quote is under the heading "Spellcasting".

I included the extraneous part about Rakshasas as simply an example of a creature with inherent magic.

If you could source me where it says otherwise, that would be great.

"Somatic (S). A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component."

"If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. " (Alter Self)

"A lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form." (Lycanthrope)

"You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell." (Natural Spell)

The text you quoted is specific to creatures that cast spells innately, it's in the paragraph before the one you quoted:
"Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class. "

That's the text. I bolded it for emphasis. I hope that's clear now.

[trollburgers]

"Somatic (S). A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component."

This is the general rule re: somatic components that is superseded by the specific rule (see below).


"If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. " (Alter Self)

This is referencing Alter Self (which changes the caster’s form), which is irrelevant in a conversation about a creature casting in its natural form. This is also the general rule re: casting in a different form that is superseded by the specific rule of Natural Spell (see below).


"A lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form." (Lycanthrope)

This would be relevant if we were talking about a weresparrow, but alas…


"You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell." (Natural Spell)

Natural Spell is a great feat that allows druids to cast spells in a form that is not their natural form. This feat trumps the general rule set out in Alter Self.


The text you quoted is specific to creatures that cast spells innately, it's in the paragraph before the one you quoted:
"Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body."

Ah, now this is the relevant stuff. This is the specific rule that trumps the general rule re: somatic components. You seem to be reading the first clause as being a prerequisite for the second clause. I do not think that is the case. My reading of it is that when the system was updated from 3.0 (Surrogate Spellcasting is from Savage Species, a 3.0 sourcebook), they dropped Surrogate Spellcasting and included this text in the Monster Manual, allowing intelligent creatures of all types to have developed a way to perform somatic components to their spells, regardless of their possession or not of opposable thumbs. I would even argue that a sparrow polymorphed into a human would need a feat to be able to cast in such an (to it) unnatural form.

[TypoNinja]

Ah, now this is the relevant stuff. This is the specific rule that trumps the general rule re: somatic components. You seem to be reading the first clause as being a prerequisite for the second clause. I do not think that is the case. My reading of it is that when the system was updated from 3.0 (Surrogate Spellcasting is from Savage Species, a 3.0 sourcebook), they dropped Surrogate Spellcasting and included this text in the Monster Manual, allowing intelligent creatures of all types to have developed a way to perform somatic components to their spells, regardless of their possession or not of opposable thumbs. I would even argue that a sparrow polymorphed into a human would need a feat to be able to cast in such an (to it) unnatural form.

To my mind the intended distinction was that anything with spells can cast in its natural form, but anything shapeshifting needs help to retain casting in unfamiliar forms.

[trollburgers]

To my mind the intended distinction was that anything with spells can cast in its natural form, but anything shapeshifting needs help to retain casting in unfamiliar forms.

Exactly my reading as well.

[willpell]

#358, yea for Google image search. Couldn't remember the number, but cover art is quite memorable. :D Says Master Crafting right on the cover. Unless I'm seriously mistaken that's it.

Okay, I'm agreed that it seems like it would be worth having, but Ebay is listing it as $10, which IMO is a bit much to pay for a magazine no matter what's in it. So, who here thinks it's that worth having?

[kitcik]

Paizo has it for $8
Amazon $5.50
Pay up or lower your morals.

[Snowbluff]

Okay, I'm agreed that it seems like it would be worth having, but Ebay is listing it as $10, which IMO is a bit much to pay for a magazine no matter what's in it. So, who here thinks it's that worth having?


Paizo has it for $8
Amazon $5.50
Pay up or lower your morals.

Before we had to pay hot-holla $$$ for in-game benefits for videogames, we had had to pay for DnD supplements for powergaming benefits. /dndhipster

[willpell]

Okay, sounds like $10 is not a fair price, I'll ebay harder until I find a decent bargain. $6 or so is about what I'm willing to pay for a magazine, but I'd rather not have to put up with Amazon; if they can sell it for that, then so can Steve's ex-wife. I just might have to wait until the divorce is final. :smallbiggrin:

[TypoNinja]

Okay, I'm agreed that it seems like it would be worth having, but Ebay is listing it as $10, which IMO is a bit much to pay for a magazine no matter what's in it. So, who here thinks it's that worth having?

If that includes shipping, I'd grab it. It's also one of the Savage Tide Issues, so if you want that adventure path you'll need it anyway. Giant 1-20 module series that spans multiple issues, its a whole premade campaign if you use it all.

[The Viscount]

The Malaugrym got nerfed in the same update posted in this thread. Its shapeshifting was changed to change shape, as the ability in MM.

I was rather surprised nobody mentioned Constrictor Naga from OA in all the Naga discussion. It's the least HD Huge monster in existence to my knowledge at only 4HD. I'm not sure if it ever got an LA. It's definitely an interesting form for a Master of Many Forms, though.

Karsite from ToM as a Warlock seems to be capable of infinite healing. It has spell resistance, and any time a spell fails to overcome its spell resistance the Karsite is healed 2 hp for every spell level. There may be something I'm missing though. Karsite is LA +2 though, so you do pay for it.

EDIT: Oh dear. Sorry about casting raise thread there.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Here's something for ya: We all know about the hacksaws in dungeon scape, but did you know that an Admantine Hacksaw is less encompassing than a standard/superior blade?

It's true, an Admantine Hacksaw only ignores hardness of 25 or less, where as a standard/superior blade ignores ALL hardness of ALL metal (Except Mithral/Admantine) EVER. The only thing an Admantine blade has going for it is that it lasts forever.

[navar100]

NPC Personality trait #26 is awesome! Always pleased when a DM uses it.

[Snowbluff]

I was rather surprised nobody mentioned Constrictor Naga from OA in all the Naga discussion. It's the least HD Huge monster in existence to my knowledge at only 4HD. I'm not sure if it ever got an LA. It's definitely an interesting form for a Master of Many Forms, though.

Karsite from ToM as a Warlock seems to be capable of infinite healing. It has spell resistance, and any time a spell fails to overcome its spell resistance the Karsite is healed 2 hp for every spell level. There may be something I'm missing though. Karsite is LA +2 though, so you do pay for it.The naga got LA somewhere... Does anyone have a primary source of the OA Naga LA?

Karsite only works if your DM lets you botch CL checks.


NPC Personality trait #26 is awesome! Always pleased when a DM uses it.

Which one is it? Source please. :smallsmile:

[Sgt. Cookie]

Personality Trait 26 doesn't exist. :smallmad:

[Snowbluff]

Personality Trait 26 doesn't exist. :smallmad:

Which trait list is he referring to? :smallconfused:

Either way, not cool. :smallfrown: Unless it's a typo, then awesome.

@V Thanks Brah!

[nedz]

Personality Trait 26 is Thread Necromancy.

[navar100]

Which trait list is he referring to? :smallconfused:

Either way, not cool. :smallfrown: Unless it's a typo, then awesome.

@V Thanks Brah!

Personality trait #100 - No sense of humor. (see #26)
DMG page 128, One Hundred Traits

[8wGremlin]

The naga got LA somewhere... Does anyone have a primary source of the OA Naga LA?

OA Page 203

Naga (Shlnomen), Asp +3
Naga (Shlnomen), Chameleon +3
Naga (Shlnomen), Cobra +5
Naga (Shlnomen), Constrictor +3
Naga (Shlnomen), Greensnake +1

Also note that they are Humanoid, so the Greensnake, looses its 1HD and uses class levels for advancement if a PC

[Fates]

Hrmm...

The Half-Dragon template can be applied to plant creatures. Somehow, dragons are capable of mating with plants. Does dragon dandruff double as draconic pollen? Who knows? Even more strangely, oozes can also be half-dragons, despite the fact that they always reproduce asexually. A DM of mine once threw a half-red dragon elder black pudding at me. It could breath fire. And fly.

The Animal Control (http://dndtools.eu/feats/masters-of-the-wild-a-guidebook-to-barbarians-druids-and-rangers--44/animal-control--74/) feat allows you to rebuke/command animals. It's 3.0 material, and requires the Animal Friendship spell, though, so it's really up to the DM whether or not it's usable.

A beguiler or (more difficultly) a dread necromancer can take a single level the Prestige Bard PrC to learn every bard-unique spell there is. It's often worth it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

*Cracks Fingers* You don't automaticaly learn them, unfortunately. Nor is Dread Necro a viable choice, that -2 Caster Level to necromancy spells hurts like a cactus to the nads. Beguiler, on the other hand, does benefit greatly. A +2 caster level to all spells is excelent value.

Warlocks, with a Wiz/Beguiler dip, can be used in conjuntion with Prestige Bard. And it's quite effective too.

[Fates]

*Cracks Fingers* You don't automaticaly learn them, unfortunately. Nor is Dread Necro a viable choice, that -2 Caster Level to necromancy spells hurts like a cactus to the nads. Beguiler, on the other hand, does benefit greatly. A +2 caster level to all spells is excelent value.

Warlocks, with a Wiz/Beguiler dip, can be used in conjuntion with Prestige Bard. And it's quite effective too.

Erm, I believe it specifically mentions that class-specific spells are added to the class's list, and beguilers can cast any spells from their class list spontaneously.