Changelings can gain the benefits of warshaper by strict RAW.

[123456789blaaa]

Edit: turns out my conclusion was based on false data. Please ignore the below post.

I'm making this thread just in case anyone still thinks this is debatable. Here is the proof:

The warshaper requirments are:

•Race: Any (but see below).
•Base Attack Bonus: +4.
•Special: Must be able to change shape in one of the following five ways: ■Change shape supernatural ability (aranea, hound archon, barghest, doppleganger, raskshasa, slaad).
■Shapechanger subtype (lycanthropes, phasm).
■Polymoprh as a spell-like ability (astral deva, planetar, solar, couatl, marilith, bronze dragon, gold dragon, silver dragon, efreeti, leonal, guardinal, night hag, ogre mage, pixie).
■Able to cast the polymorph spell.
■Wild shape or similar class feature (bear warrior, druid)

Changelings are humanoids with the shapechanger subtype. Therefore they gain the benefits of the class.

Ta Da!:smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

In related news, Halflings can qualify for Rogue by RAW.

[123456789blaaa]

In related news, Halflings can qualify for Rogue by RAW.

there's no need to be rude. I said in the op that it was for people who still thought changeling entering warshaper was debatable. In fact Lonely Tylenol of these very forum's thinks that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For an alternative I like quasylicanthrope (LA 1), it gives (Shapechanger) subtype, DR 10/Silver and disguise self (animalistic version of yourself only) at will.

Best option to emulate a full lycanthrope without eating a huge amount of RHD and LA.

[limejuicepowder]

IIRC, the debate is NOT whether changling can get in to the class; they absolutely can. The debate is whether their "disguise self" is strong enough to actually get the benefits of the class.

For example, if a druid vampire were to enter the class, he would add all of the benefits of the class to his wild shaping but not his alternate form.

I would personally allow it, since it's certainly not game breaking and potentially very flavorful - but I can see why some people would say it's a no go. It's definitely a grey area that would have to be determined by the DM.

[123456789blaaa]

IIRC, the debate is NOT whether changling can get in to the class; they absolutely can. The debate is whether their "disguise self" is strong enough to actually get the benefits of the class.

For example, if a druid vampire were to enter the class, he would add all of the benefits of the class to his wild shaping but not his alternate form.

I would personally allow it, since it's certainly not game breaking and potentially very flavorful - but I can see why some people would say it's a no go. It's definitely a grey area that would have to be determined by the DM.

But it says "Must be able to change shape in one of the following five ways. Since you have the shapechanger subtype you gain the benefits of the class. Their disguise self ability is completely irrelevant.Maybe I'm just dumb but I really can't see the grey area here.

[Keld Denar]

The abilities state "when in a form other than your own". That is the debate. Yes, they can qualify for the PrC, but to gain the bonuses granted therein, it states that you have to be in a form other than your own. Some people disagree their Disguise Self ability is enough of a change to be a "form other than your own".

A wizard8 can qualify for the PrC, as long as he has the ability to cast Polymorph. That said, when he hasn't cast Polymorph, he doesn't gain the abilities. Qualifying for the PrC and gaining the benefits of the PrC are two different qualifications. The debate has NEVER been whether not a Changeling can qualify for Warshaper, but rather whether or not they can gain the benefits of each of the abilities they gain that specify requiring to be in a form other than your base form.

For the record, I don't have an opinion either way. I'm just stating the crux of the argument.

[limejuicepowder]

But it says "Must be able to change shape in one of the following five ways. Since you have the shapechanger subtype you gain the benefits of the class. Their disguise self ability is completely irrelevant.Maybe I'm just dumb but I really can't see the grey area here.

Look at it this way: a druid who enters the class only gets the benefits of the class if they are wild shaped; when they are in their natural form, they don't get anything from the class besides base attack, saves, etc. The argument against changlings is that disguise self is not "enough" of a shapeshift to gain the class abilities. If I take what you said at it's face value, a changling can not only enter the class, but they would gain the class benefits even when they don't use disguise self - they are a shapechanger, after all. This is obviously against RAI, and RAW is hard to tell.

Really, the prereqs are just vague when it comes to changlings. This even makes sense, since changlings came out after the warshaper did. Not that I would really trust (or expect) WotC to think of this rather obscure combination, even if they did come out in the reverse order.

Question though: shifters are another shapechanging race (I think), thus the above argument would apply to them too. Would you allow them to use the class features of the warshaper all the time, or only when they use their 1/day shift racial ability?

[Dusk Eclipse]

To further complicate things more, while mechanically a Changeling's ability is equal to Disguise Self, it is fluffed as actual physical change. Personally I would allow them to benefit from Warshaper when using theid disguise self ability. The only thing I would limit would be the growing Natural attacks (was thinking about # of NW equal to con or int modifier)

[Venger]

To further complicate things more, while mechanically a Changeling's ability is equal to Disguise Self, it is fluffed as actual physical change. Personally I would allow them to benefit from Warshaper when using theid disguise self ability. The only thing I would limit would be the growing Natural attacks (was thinking about # of NW equal to con or int modifier)

or you could have it be equal to their warshaper level to cut down on craziness. changeling rogues will have an insane intelligence modifier.

having played/DMed for changeling warshapers, they're not terrible gamebreakers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I doubt a rogue will have an Int mod higher than +4, maybe +5, they usually have Dex and maybe even Str as priorities when upgrading stats.

[123456789blaaa]

The abilities state "when in a form other than your own". That is the debate. .

Ooooh, My copy of complete warrior doesn't have that sentence. Sorry guys I suppose I must have sounded a little ignorant :smallredface:.

Also I'm sorry to Lonely Tylenol for (accidentally) putting words into your mouth. When I saw you saying that the changeling warshaper thing was debatable I probably misconstrued what you meant.

[Snowbluff]

Ugh. This is so... ugh. :smallsigh:

Why would anyone say no to changeling warshapers? In my eyes, it looks sturdy by RAW. RAI, since shapeshifters qualify, they probably were intended to have use of these class features...

or you could have it be equal to their warshaper level to cut down on craziness. changeling rogues will have an insane intelligence modifier.

having played/DMed for changeling warshapers, they're not terrible gamebreakers.

Finally, who cares? Why all the hate? This guys points out that it isn't gamebreaking in the first place, and I am inclined to agree. It's not like the world will tip over if a non-caster gets something nice. :smallmad:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thing is that WarShaper was most likely intended for (PC) casters, check the list of acceptable shapechanging, Pre-Eberron only Wildshape and Poymorph were easilly accessible for players ( Notice how all example of monster abilities are from high LA and high RHD monsters).

[tyckspoon]

Thing is that WarShaper was most likely intended for (PC) casters, check the list of acceptable shapechanging, Pre-Eberron only Wildshape and Poymorph were easilly accessible for players ( Notice how all example of monster abilities are from high LA and high RHD monsters).

Although a Druid using Wildshape would pretty readily be capable of being Wildshaped between 15 to like 40 hours a day, depending on when they decided to step out of Druid.. so if the argument is that 'always on' Warshaper benefits are too strong, well, they knew Druids could do that, and PHB base classes are the only ones they might have reliably thought about interactions with.

[Rejakor]

A changeling with 4 levels in a full BAB class is the earliest entry.

By that point their whole schtick is reach increases or whatever. It's interesting but not broken.

[Venger]

Ugh. This is so... ugh. :smallsigh:

Why would anyone say no to changeling warshapers? In my eyes, it looks sturdy by RAW. RAI, since shapeshifters qualify, they probably were intended to have use of these class features...

Finally, who cares? Why all the hate? This guys points out that it isn't gamebreaking in the first place, and I am inclined to agree. It's not like the world will tip over if a non-caster gets something nice. :smallmad:

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I was saying that there's no problem with it in my experience, from having dealt with them from both sides of the screen (I even entered one in iron chef back in shadowdancer and didn't catch any flak for it)

since changelings are stealthy, they'll need to morph back into something normal after the fight's over and it's time to go back to town, so it's not like they'll hole up and develop 10,000 natural attacks to slap someone with.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Although a Druid using Wildshape would pretty readily be capable of being Wildshaped between 15 to like 40 hours a day, depending on when they decided to step out of Druid.. so if the argument is that 'always on' Warshaper benefits are too strong, well, they knew Druids could do that, and PHB base classes are the only ones they might have reliably thought about interactions with.

I said that with the intention of mentioning that one of meleer's best option was (probably) designed for casters. A funny coincidence in my opinion; but I do see I wrote in a confussing manner.

[Snowbluff]

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I was saying that there's no problem with it in my experience, from having dealt with them from both sides of the screen (I even entered one in iron chef back in shadowdancer and didn't catch any flak for it)

since changelings are stealthy, they'll need to morph back into something normal after the fight's over and it's time to go back to town, so it's not like they'll hole up and develop 10,000 natural attacks to slap someone with.


but I do see I wrote in a confussing manner.

Yeah, sorry. I was agreeing with you. I'll edit my post to quote you more appropriately.

As for the extra natural weapons, I read it as "if you have a natural weapon you INSTEAD get a size increase to damage". It makes more sense, might not be RAW, but it's not silly this way.

[Mnemnosyne]

Look at it this way: a druid who enters the class only gets the benefits of the class if they are wild shaped; when they are in their natural form, they don't get anything from the class besides base attack, saves, etc. The argument against changlings is that disguise self is not "enough" of a shapeshift to gain the class abilities. If I take what you said at it's face value, a changling can not only enter the class, but they would gain the class benefits even when they don't use disguise self - they are a shapechanger, after all. This is obviously against RAI, and RAW is hard to tell.

Really, the prereqs are just vague when it comes to changlings. This even makes sense, since changlings came out after the warshaper did. Not that I would really trust (or expect) WotC to think of this rather obscure combination, even if they did come out in the reverse order.

Question though: shifters are another shapechanging race (I think), thus the above argument would apply to them too. Would you allow them to use the class features of the warshaper all the time, or only when they use their 1/day shift racial ability?I fail to see how RAW is vague. It states when in a form other than your own. It does not say substantially different from your own. That means that any modification to your form, no matter how minuscule, activates the warshapers benefits. The changeling ability is absolutely a change of form, and therefore activates benefits.

[Last Laugh]

I fail to see how RAW is vague. It states when in a form other than your own. It does not say substantially different from your own. That means that any modification to your form, no matter how minuscule, activates the warshapers benefits. The changeling ability is absolutely a change of form, and therefore activates benefits.

This just gave me the mental image of a character cutting off his own finger to gain warshaper abilities. *chop* "There, Now I'm in another form! Fasthealing HO!!! no no no no NO, drat" *chop*

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ooooh, My copy of complete warrior doesn't have that sentence. Sorry guys I suppose I must have sounded a little ignorant :smallredface:.

You're probably not looking in the right spot. It's right below table 2-37: The Warshaper, right below the Class Features heading. It says:
"All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."


I fail to see how RAW is vague. It states when in a form other than your own. It does not say substantially different from your own. That means that any modification to your form, no matter how minuscule, activates the warshapers benefits. The changeling ability is absolutely a change of form, and therefore activates benefits.

Let's say a Wizard qualifies because he can cast Polymorph. He casts Reduce Person + Permanency on himself, so he's permanently one size smaller than normal. By your reasoning, this would allow him to always gain the benefits of Warshaper's class features. It's still his own form on a different scale, and the permanent size change could even be considered his new normal form, similar to a creature that gets Reincarnated. What if he gets a Feathered Wings graft, he's now (permanently) different in that he has wings, would that enable Warshaper's class features?

It's ultimately up to anyone's DM to decide whether or not it works. I'd say the intent is that if a given ability can change your movement modes, natural weapons, and extraordinary natural attacks, and you're able to change back and reactivate the ability at least 1/day, then it's strong enough to enable the Warshaper's class features. Physical changes that have no effect on game mechanics (Disguise Self), changes in size but nothing else (Enlarge Person), and permanent changes (grafts, Reincarnate) should not enable its class features.

On the RAW front, it does specify, "in a form other than her own."
Change Shape: "The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form."
Alternate Form (as possessed by all core shapechangers): "The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well."
Polymorph: "...you change the willing subject into another form of living creature."
Minor Change Shape (as possessed by Changelings: "...alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell.... A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form." It's specifically a different appearance of your own form, not a different form, and you revert to the natural appearance of your own form when killed.

[Snowbluff]

This just gave me the mental image of a character cutting off his own finger to gain warshaper abilities. *chop* "There, Now I'm in another form! Fasthealing HO!!! no no no no NO, drat" *chop*

You mean regeneration. Loss of limb/extremity is covered by regeneration. :smalltongue:

[Rejakor]

Minor Change Shape (as possessed by Changelings: "...alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell.... A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form."

'reverts to natural form when killed' heavily implies a 'new form'. That 'revert to natural form when killed' line is used for lycanthropes also, I believe.

And true seeing reveals the natural form of someone polymorphed.

In fact i'd say the circumstantial evidence is pretty overwhelming.

[Last Laugh]

You mean regeneration. Loss of limb/extremity is covered by regeneration. :smalltongue:

Right after I said that I debated if I should edit it like: Ok, that's regeneration but still.
And the I went "naaaaah"

[StreamOfTheSky]

Changelings can enter Warshaper, no it's not broken.

And IMHO, the "grow a natural weapon" thing was intended to be one weapon at a time (and that's how my groups have always played it), but lulz @ people thinking it's unlimited or would be balanced if capped at some number > 1, and yet think changeling warshaper is unbalanced.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Semi-on topic: What would be the best Natural Attack to grow as a Changelng Warshaper? I am thinking either a bite ( deals all type of damage and can be affected by Greater Mighty Wallop) or possibly slam (highest base damage AFIK), though wing buffets would be interesting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Minor Change Shape (as possessed by Changelings: "...alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell.... A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form."

'reverts to natural form when killed' heavily implies a 'new form'. That 'revert to natural form when killed' line is used for lycanthropes also, I believe.

And true seeing reveals the natural form of someone polymorphed.

In fact i'd say the circumstantial evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Every other ability that would enable the use of the Warshaper class features is explicitly stated as a different form. Minor Change Shape is explicitly stated as a different appearance. At the end it can imply whatever you want it to, but it is not explicitly stated as a different form, only a different appearance of your own form. You revert back to the natural appearance of your own form when killed.

[Keld Denar]

Semi-on topic: What would be the best Natural Attack to grow as a Changelng Warshaper? I am thinking either a bite ( deals all type of damage and can be affected by Greater Mighty Wallop) or possibly slam (highest base damage AFIK), though wing buffets would be interesting.

Tentacles. Most natural attacks are limb-related. If that limb is occupied by another natural attack, or used in standing and/or locomotion, it might not be available at all times to deliver attacks. The rules have shown us that creatures can sprout tentacles from just about any part of their body, either back, front, middle, or wherever. Since they don't take up a limb, they don't interfere with anything else you would be desiring to do. They are also valid GMWallop targets.

Plus, everything is better with tentacles.

[Venger]

Semi-on topic: What would be the best Natural Attack to grow as a Changelng Warshaper? I am thinking either a bite ( deals all type of damage and can be affected by Greater Mighty Wallop) or possibly slam (highest base damage AFIK), though wing buffets would be interesting.

Definitely Bite. all types of damage help to ignore DR, if applicable, plus it's eligible for jagged tooth, which doubles its crit range (kind of lame, but a level 1) combine with GMW and go to town.

you are mistaken. bite has the highest base damage, tied with gore/tail, but bites deal all kinds of damage and if you're morphing into things, almost any kind of monster has a bite, meaning you can use morphic weapon (bite) to boost the damage die up one.

If you're focusing on natural attacks, INA is a real consideration, since between INA and morphic weapons, you're moving your bite up 2, GMW moves it up another 1/4 CL so that's a couple. even assuming GMW only moves it up 2, you're dealing colossal already if you're medium.

One route into this class that's not discussed especially often is wild shape ranger. changelings make decent enough rangers, plus they have full BA, so you could go WS ranger 5/warshaper5/nature's warrior 5/abolisher 5

you've got wild shape online and free track for nature's warrior and abolisher so you don't have to pay for it. skills arent' a problem, you've got everything you need as class skills. you're finishing warshaper at 10 and gaining the amazing multimorph ability. you do only have 1 wild shape a day up until this point, but it lasts for 5 hours, and once you unlock this, you can change into a different animal as a standard at any time during that 5 hours without ending the duration. your 1 wild shape is now NI wild shapes.

nature's warrior gives you 2 more levels of ranger casting (on the off chance you cared. your list is actually pretty awesome) and a list of a few abilities. your best bet is wild growth for fast healing, nature's weapon to treat your natural weapons as +1, and grizzly's power for a boost on damage with natural attacks.

ask your DM if fast healing from nature's warrior stacks with warshaper's fast healing to increase it. if so, the feature's worth its weight in gold. if not, bump the other two up and take serpent's coils last, since none of the other abilities are usable due to your lack of an elemental wild shape.

it also stacks with wild shape, so you're wild shaping as a level 10 druid (4/day and large) errata clarified (it was clear from intent but not spelled out) you pool your nature's warrior HD with your wild shapey HD to find the HD of the animal you can turn into, and there's some nasty stuff at 10HD large.

now you need to find one of those rare classes that actually advances wild shape. enter abolisher from lords of madness. obviously, like all the other clases in there, best if you're in an aberration heavy game.

it's not full BA unfortunately, but we've exhausted the only full BA wild shape class. it gives you more wild shapes per day (though you're limited to medium) and some other nice bonuses, plus advances 4 more levels of casting (for a total of ranger 10 casting, which nabs you some 2nds) and gives you crystals on your body that make aberrations sick, plus gives you a bunch of favored enemy aberration stuff. it even advances animal companion! plus it seemed to fit with the more natural attacks route you suggested you'd like to take.

if you don't mind setting a feat on fire for alertness (ranger 3 gives you endurance) you can go MoMF for your last 5 instead and put your multimorph ability to much better use, and get a ton of infinite-use wild shapes per day with humanoids, giants, monstrous humanoids, fey, and vermin from large down to tiny, you'll pick up fast wild shape (so you can multimorph as a move action) and shifter's speech to save that 600gp on a pearl of speech.

[StreamOfTheSky]

My personal favorites were tail slap (including growing the tail), tentacle (not for power, they're pretty weak, but the aesthetics of a tentacle popping out of your mouth or chest, or so on makes me not care), or horns/gore.

A lot of times, I'd use the added appendage to pull off looking like some sort of creature.

[Mnemnosyne]

Every other ability that would enable the use of the Warshaper class features is explicitly stated as a different form. Minor Change Shape is explicitly stated as a different appearance. At the end it can imply whatever you want it to, but it is not explicitly stated as a different form, only a different appearance of your own form. You revert back to the natural appearance of your own form when killed.
It doesn't say you revert to your natural appearance, or to the natural appearance of your own form: it clearly says "reverts to her natural form" or "reveals her natural form". You can't revert to your natural form or have it revealed if you never left your natural form. The sentence could have been written "reverts to her natural appearance" and it would be more ambiguous. But it wasn't.

[Lonely Tylenol]

there's no need to be rude. I said in the op that it was for people who still thought changeling entering warshaper was debatable. In fact Lonely Tylenol of these very forum's thinks that.

No I don't. :smallconfused: The guide, which I am helping to collaborate on but did not write that portion of, mentions that (in the original author's experience) some may object to the use of Changeling to qualify for Warshaper. The handbook's original author included the Changeling as an option, but specifically noted that some DMs may call this into question. I raised the objection to the author that, if you are including tricks in the guide that, in your experience, are solid options with debatable legality to any single person, then Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) deserves the exact same treatment, because it is an obviously optimal trick for what it does (mitigate Hellfire Warlock's CON damage), but is a debatable trick. I'm not saying that Changeling doesn't qualify for Warshaper by any stretch of the imagination, just that regardless of its legality, the way that it is being treated sets a precedent for Shape Soulmeld (which has been excluded from the guide).

So you can stop dropping my name for this. :smallconfused:

EDIT: Saw this:


Also I'm sorry to Lonely Tylenol for (accidentally) putting words into your mouth. When I saw you saying that the changeling warshaper thing was debatable I probably misconstrued what you meant.

I didn't say it was debatable. Just that if my co-author thought it was debatable, but posted it anyway, then there is no reason not to post other tricks that one might think are debatable.

But thanks. We're cool. :smallsmile:

[ThiagoMartell]

If you can't do it with changeling, you can do it with shifter (but you only get the bonus while shifting) and with hengeyokai (hybrid form ftw).
Not allowing it for changelings sounds very unwise. Their ability is clearly fluffed as transformation, even if it is based on an illusion spell.

Warshaper is a strong class and in some groups it could create a power dispcrepancy - it's basically pre-optimized if you enter it ASAP, after all. Then again, in those situations you should ban Warshapers, not Changeling Warshapers.


No I don't. :smallconfused: The guide, which I am helping to collaborate on but did not write that portion of, mentions that (in the original author's experience) some may object to the use of Changeling to qualify for Warshaper. The handbook's original author included the Changeling as an option, but specifically noted that some DMs may call this into question. I raised the objection to the author that, if you are including tricks in the guide that, in your experience, are solid options with debatable legality to any single person, then Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest) deserves the exact same treatment, because it is an obviously optimal trick for what it does (mitigate Hellfire Warlock's CON damage), but is a debatable trick. I'm not saying that Changeling doesn't qualify for Warshaper by any stretch of the imagination, just that regardless of its legality, the way that it is being treated sets a precedent for Shape Soulmeld (which has been excluded from the guide).

I'll get to that, btw. I'm just feeling kinda lazy these days :smalltongue: