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Anderlith
2012-09-01, 09:26 PM
So I know there are a lot of fanboys/girls of different settings. I'd like to see a discussion about the different settings, pros & cons & such.

To get the ball rolling, my favorite setting is Eberron, it has an Indiana Jones flavor adventuring theme, warforged, the continents are vary interesting, on is an ancient ruin of long forgotten giants, one is the foothold of an invasion of aberrations. One even has a bunch of undying elves. The main continent is recently seen a very long & bloodly war leaving no winners & a one entire nation annihilated in a mysterious event. But the hightlights I most like about it are the Karrnathi people (who use somewhat intelligent undead as labor & soldiers, yet aren't really an evil people) & the best class in the game, the Articifer, who builds magical devices & is a mix of engineer & soldier & mage

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-01, 11:29 PM
Another vote for Eberron here. There's a ton of things I like about Eberron: the atmosphere, the aesthetic, its take on alignment (which is actually just one step away from removing alignment entirely), its take on the planes, on deities and divine magic, almost everything really. I can count the things I don't like about Eberron on one hand (though unfortunately these are things too major with the setting to write out entirely without fundamental changes, though they're minor enough to just ignore them most of the time).

But what really sells Eberron for me are the Warforged.

Why? Because the Warforged are everything I think a non-human fantasy race is supposed to be. They're almost perfect and, honestly, I think they're the only non-human PC race that has a right to exist. If I remade D&D from scratch, Warforged would be the only non-human player race that I would keep as-is, fluff-wise anyway. I mean, I'd change a few of the other races so we have more than just humans + warforged, but still, warforged are the only race I don't want to make severe changes to.

Let's face it, the classic races (and all their variants) only enable concepts that could easily be done by making a separate human culture rather than creating an entire new species for it. 99% of the other races only provide a slight physical difference, like being two inches tall or having additional arms or something. Sometimes they can come into play, but they can't be used to provide an entire new dimension to a character. The other 1% just doesn't have all their different aspects fit together just right in some way or another.

The warforged are more than a collection of stats and physical bonuses. They're more than a tacked on culture and set of personality traits that are supposedly hard-wired into their DNA for dubious reasons. They're really different from humans in fundamental ways, not just in interesting ways but in ways that evoke philosophical and existential dilemmas.

They don't just add a dimension to a character, they add multiple dimensions to an entire setting. If you live in a city at least you probably interact with Warforged on a near-daily basis, so even if you aren't a warforged yourself (or even if there are no warforged in the party) every character is bound to have their own opinions on them.

What kinds of dilemmas? Here's just a few:

- Can Warforged have rights? This sounds like a no-brainer, "Well duh, they're a PC race! They're sapient! Of course they should!" but the implications are actually a bit deeper and more subtle than that. Consider this from an in-character perspective where you're actually physically face-to-face with a warforged: Pretty much all of the features that evoke empathy in us have been purposefully stripped out: They don't have expressive faces, they don't have families, they don't have children, they don't bleed, they don't (express that they) feel pain, and their silhouette only just barely resembles ours at the best of times. It's really easy to see how, in-character, someone could consider a Warforged an object rather than a person, they're quite difficult to identify with.

- What *is* a person, anyway? What things can you take away before it stops counting as one? The Warforged have a lot removed, but most people (out of character at least) would say they still count. It's easy to say "sapience" as the magic word but sapience is actually a quite complicated ball of concepts with tons of things stitched together. The question becomes way harder if you try to dissect what sapience is and try to figure out what parts of our modern concept are actually meaningful and which ones aren't.

- Furthermore, what should a person be? Even if they aren't critical to our status as people, what parts of us can we safely strip away and what parts of us do we need to protect at all costs? If you woke up with parts of you missing, which ones would you miss? And by "you", do we mean the person imagining the parts missing, or the person actually experiencing the missing parts? The you imagining this would probably miss the ability to enjoy steak, but would a person who lost the ability to enjoy steak really miss it? What about someone who never had it at all? Would it really be an improvement to give it to them? Why if we gave them the ability to enjoy something we currently don't like, like making them enjoy Justin Bieber music or something? Would it still be an improvement? If not, would it be an improvement if you took that away from someone who already did?

- Responsibility. And probably the greatest kind of responsibility: Not just the birth of a new child, but the birth of a new species. The creation of the warforged happened very quickly and regardless of your (or your character's) opinions on it it's very clear it was all done with no regard for the consequences. The Treaty of Thronehold is another quick change with no foresight, whether you agree with the provisions or not, they were a 5-second fix to try to end the oppression the Warforged were under. Already, the negative effects of the provisions are being felt. Well, how the hell does this happen? How do events with such extreme weight on the future of not only the Warforged but of the entire world get executed by highly competent individuals so quickly and carelessly? What could have been done differently, and how can we prevent these sorts of mistakes in the future?

And let's not even get into what the Lord of Blades and the Becoming God mean, I've sorta gushed about how great the warforged fluff is way too much already.

The best part of all this? Warforged and Eberron are fundamentally inseparable. Take warforged out of Eberron and it stops being Eberron. Move Warforged to a different setting where they don't have the context and they stop working as both a race and as a plot device. I mean, just look at the crappy genericized warforged fluff in the 4E non-Eberron books. If I weren't introduced to Eberron warforged first first, I'd have thought they were just some hack fantasy writer's take at magical versions of Bender.

toapat
2012-09-02, 12:11 AM
in a way, i have no favorite setting.

But, of the published ones, the one i like most is Eberron or Golarion of PF. (Dragonlance and Faerun are a little too safe, Eberron is too busy in turning Faerun inside out in my opinion. Golarion pulls second to Eberron because it doesnt go far enough with screwing with the Faerun base)

Basically, these are the reasons why:

Warforged: Robots, the first real race to actually give a reason for existing, as opposed to the others, because they dont just take a culture and run with it, They ask the questions of What measure is a Non-human, and Trap the Soul as a manditory spell required to make a Warforged raises the questions of should we be doing this.

Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted: breaking the nice safe guidelines of Always Alignment makes the game much better.

Megacorp and Dungeonpunk: Ok, this is perhaps the thing i like least about Eberron. The world is controlled by 12 superguilds that only 1% of the population are part of, but the Dragonmarked houses are treated as being overall not completely and inherently evil. on the other hand, the beautiful Setting piece of Warforged has to come with both of these, but i dont feel that the Megacorp side was handled well at all.

Climb the Tallest Mountain, Punch God in the Face: The fact that Fate is laid out on a roadmap in Eberron, and that there are no gods, majorly inhibit the value of the other set pieces. Each piece in and of itself is good, but they just fight too much for the limelight that no single piece can truly shine in the same way.


Golarion: Its Faerun, if Faerun had Night Terrors, as well as at least flavor wise, restoring magic to the rightful place of magic*. Steampunk splashes add some fun too.


*This is my biggest beef with DnD overall. Magic simply is not magical. Every Vancian caster can pick up spells with a handful of gold coins, some prismatic ink, and a quill. Magic is supposed to be complex, powerful, and mysterious, not so simple that it makes no sense that everyone isnt a Wizard.

Eldan
2012-09-02, 05:02 AM
Aside: I think fluff works a lot better when you go about it the other way, starting at the rules. Most people are not wizards and never become wizards. Magic is so powerful that learning it would be an advantage to anyone. Hence magic can not be easy, or they would.

Anyway, Eberron. Eberron gets major points for at least being just about the only setting thinking through what the effects of magic and fantastical creatures would be on society, but it's just too normal. It follows too many conventions I've seen before. It is too close to the real world. If I play Fantasy, I want it to be truly out there weird and Eberron, in the end, has not enough strange things. It treats daily life as too familiar, and not fantastic enough.

For me, the best setting is Planescape. It contains almost everything else ever made in D&D, and does so in a way that makes sense. A world where words are more powerful than swords, despite lacking that first letter. Where a speech can not just change the course of war, or of history, but the laws of nature. Where people are thrown into a world of warring anthropomorphic concepts and landscapes that change when you aren't looking at them, and adapt. And they don't just adapt, they become simultaneously the most jaded and cynical breed of criminals and the most dynamic idealists the world has ever known. Because you have to be both to survive. Ruthless to have a chance, philosophical to get anywhere with it. Planescape takes all the weirdest ideas anyone ever had about D&D, and runs with them until they can't see their creators anymore when they look back over their shoulders.

Anderlith
2012-09-02, 05:35 AM
Lol I'm starting to think D&DNext choose the wrong setting to release first

Yora
2012-09-02, 05:44 AM
For me, the best setting is Planescape.
Planescape!

Though while technically true that Planescape includes everything that was in D&D before it, that's really not what I find interesting. In fact, Planescape seems to me to be completely different from everything else. In other settings like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, a portal to the Abyss would be an epic and probably horrible story of slaughter and destruction. In Planescape, you can make short visits that are dangerous but probably turn a bit wackey as well.
To me, Planescape is Sigil, the Factions, the outsiders, and their business in the outer and inner plane. The material planes exist, but I don't see them ever appearing in any meaningful way in a Planescape game.
I rather like the almost infinite amount of worlds you can go to, that are all completely different but all connected to Sigil. It's so huge you never know what to expect and it is impossible to explore even a fraction of it, which at the same time means that everything is mundane. Cluelessly wandering through the planes and enjoying the ride with all the oddities it throws in your way.

Eldan
2012-09-02, 05:45 AM
What are they releasing first? I haven't really been following it. I'd guess Forgotten Realms, since that's always been first for several editions now?

Yora
2012-09-02, 05:46 AM
Yeah, FR is already in the works. And the only setting that has been mentioned yet. Though it would suprise me if Eberron gets completely discontinued.

But it is the right setting, because it is a good generic introductory setting to people who are new to the game. Big fans of Eberron, Planescape, Dark Sun and such already have piles of books with material that allows them to run campaigns from day 1.
Would you wait a year or two after the core rulebooks are released before you start your campaign in your favorite setting? Of couse not. Rigging warforged, artificers, or defilers would be a little bit of work, but you already know the entire world.

People who don't know entire worlds well need to get setting books first. And such people are best served with something generic. Like FR.

Eldan
2012-09-02, 05:47 AM
They have to do Forgotten Realms, really. Every player I know knew Baldur's Gate long before they knew there was also D&D without computers.

Totally Guy
2012-09-02, 06:13 AM
The core 3.5 setting works well enough for me. It defines there characters you meet and kinds of places you meet them even if if doesn't give the places names or histories. The stuff in that game is all the iconic stuff at that point so the concept is tighter than when you consider a lot of the expansion materials.

toapat
2012-09-02, 07:19 AM
The core 3.5 setting works well enough for me. It defines there characters you meet and kinds of places you meet them even if if doesn't give the places names or histories. The stuff in that game is all the iconic stuff at that point so the concept is tighter than when you consider a lot of the expansion materials.

that would be Greyhawk, not sure what actually makes that place different from Faerun.

honestly, my point is that other then Planescape and Spelljammer (which dont count as settings because they more take the Canons and start welding them together), none of the official settings actually take ideas that either let themselves shine, or the settings are very safe.


one of my common points about DnD in any wizard discussion thread is that the mechanics dont support magic as magic. they support Magic as a highly pliable universal force that requires little understanding to use

Eldan
2012-09-02, 07:43 AM
I contest that. If it required little understanding, there would be little reason for anyone not to learn it. But there are still commoners, and they are a majority. Spellcasting classes are a minority amongst PC classes as well.

Yora
2012-09-02, 07:54 AM
that would be Greyhawk, not sure what actually makes that place different from Faerun.
That's why we're seeing very little Greyhawk material at all. It's two different worlds with the same flavor and with FR you have the nice advantage of the original creator being cool with working with whomever owns the brans, while with Greyhawk you have complicated business politics and the disadvantage of the original creator being dead. And with the advantage of FR being known beyond the PnP game, it's really an easy choice.

That Greyhawk gods appeared in the PHB and greyhawk history was mentioned in Fiendish Codex I and Elder Evils was more an oddity that Greyhawk being an actual setting of 3rd Edition.
If you didn't allready knew the setting exist, there would be no clues that all those names are actually references and not just generic stuff made up on the spot.

toapat
2012-09-02, 08:03 AM
I contest that. If it required little understanding, there would be little reason for anyone not to learn it. But there are still commoners, and they are a majority. Spellcasting classes are a minority amongst PC classes as well.

thats the problem, there is No Mechanical reason why in DnD, Commoners are not wizards. Magic, as far as the mechanics for it are concerned, is mundane, safe, and thoroughly straightforward.


One of the other problems with Greyhawk that you missed Yora, is that Dave Arnessan took the rights to his grave after Wizards tried to cut him out

Yora
2012-09-02, 08:05 AM
To become a wizard, you need a teacher and access to magic books.

Every person has a brain that could be trained to make him capable to become a top manager. But you need education, which most people just can't get. Because they are modern commoners.

toapat
2012-09-02, 08:22 AM
To become a wizard, you need a teacher and access to magic books.

Every person has a brain that could be trained to make him capable to become a top manager. But you need education, which most people just can't get. Because they are modern commoners.

except that you dont need permanant access to those books, that is what the spellbook is for. A lvl 2 Wizard could hand out 10 spellbooks* to commoners and teach them the basics of spellcasting in a day

*a Wizard's Spellbook combined at lvl 1 has a WBL of 30-80g+430 (0th level spells + spellbook cost). Wizards start out with 75g. Thus, your new spell book self inscribes.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-02, 08:39 AM
That's a weird consequence with how D&D's rules work, it has nothing to do with fluff. Besides, Magic being this strange mysterious thing that drives those who even contemplate it completely insane doesn't fit every type of setting or campaign anyway.

Also, Planescape is very much its own setting: It being a glue for holding crossovers together is how it started, yeah, but the Planescape-specific stuff eventually took on a life of its own and it became a setting in its own right where non-Planescape stuff need never be referenced.

toapat
2012-09-02, 09:28 AM
Besides, Magic being this strange mysterious thing that drives those who even contemplate it completely insane doesn't fit every type of setting or campaign anyway..

I wouldnt go so extreme asto say that magic drives those insane, its just that the mechanics portray it as being so simple that it simply doesnt make sense that it is magic. Perferably magic is deep, complex, intricate, but not powered by forces so beyond mortal comprehension that they have auto vorpal and the epic feat Sunder Sanity

Totally Guy
2012-09-02, 10:36 AM
that would be Greyhawk, not sure what actually makes that place different from Faerun.

I've not read that. I'm talking about the core books, PHB MM and DMG.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-02, 10:46 AM
I've not read that. I'm talking about the core books, PHB MM and DMG.

Which is Greyhawk, with the serial numbers filed off.

Knaight
2012-09-02, 10:53 AM
I generally avoid published settings. That said, there are things I like about Eberron, for reasons Craft(Cheese) has largely covered already. Added to that are Al-Qadim and Mazatlan. Simply avoiding pure euro centrism is worth a lot, and the way the mechanics are built for medieval european fantasy while the settings diverge creates a bit of a jarring disconnect, essentially wiring culture shock into the game indirectly. I'd also add Birthright to the list, for similar reasons, though the shift is along the political influence scale and not a cultural and geographic one.

toapat
2012-09-02, 11:14 AM
Which is Greyhawk, with the serial numbers filed off.

more like hastily scraped off, it is Greyhawk in all but name, hell, the map in the DMG is centered on Greyhawk

eggs
2012-09-02, 12:28 PM
Of the older games, I loved Al'Qadim and Planescape.

Of the newer ones, I'm a sucker for Midnight Campaign Setting's core conceit - using players' powergaming tendencies to bait them into the metaplot (spellcasting comes through feats, which are clearly the most powerful things you can get for that resource, but the metaplot is all about the Big Bad hunting down the spellcasters, so players end up baiting themselves into the storyline at character creation).

TheFallenOne
2012-09-02, 01:12 PM
Planescape. Reasons have been mentioned.

I liked the feel of Iron Kingdoms.

And Forgotten Realms. So many interesting concepts thanks to the many nations and the pantheon. The latter is why I prefer FR over Eberron. When I made my Eberron character I looked through the Religion section in ECS and noticed not a single one was close to a match. That was quite disappointing.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-02, 01:32 PM
There's more in Faiths of Eberron, but part of the whole point of how religion works is your character can decide what they believe for themselves without risking divine wrath.

toapat
2012-09-02, 01:46 PM
There's more in Faiths of Eberron, but part of the whole point of how religion works is your character can decide what they believe for themselves without risking divine wrath.

Overall, the lack of religion in Eberron is nice, but the lack of Mystra removes an entire class from viable* gameplay (Paladin).

*Ubermount Halfling Clawfoot Rider build excluded.

Anderlith
2012-09-02, 02:23 PM
except that you dont need permanant access to those books, that is what the spellbook is for. A lvl 2 Wizard could hand out 10 spellbooks* to commoners and teach them the basics of spellcasting in a day

*a Wizard's Spellbook combined at lvl 1 has a WBL of 30-80g+430 (0th level spells + spellbook cost). Wizards start out with 75g. Thus, your new spell book self inscribes.

I could do the same with college textbooks, how many people in a backwater village do you think could even start to grasp the concept of Schroedinger's cat as it effects the virtual states in our universe? Go to Africa or Bangladesh & try to teach a villager the math involved to operate the Hadron Collider.

toapat
2012-09-02, 03:00 PM
I could do the same with college textbooks, how many people in a backwater village do you think could even start to grasp the concept of Schroedinger's cat as it effects the virtual states in our universe? Go to Africa or Bangladesh & try to teach a villager the math involved to operate the Hadron Collider.

the comparison to the real world doesnt work. I get that in reality, you cant do that, In DnD, you can. That mechanical dissonance is what i hate about wizards. they are more mundane then the mundanes

Anderlith
2012-09-02, 04:21 PM
the comparison to the real world doesnt work. I get that in reality, you cant do that, In DnD, you can. That mechanical dissonance is what i hate about wizards. they are more mundane then the mundanes

The comparison stands, you are trying to teach a complex, intricate & esoteric knowledge.

Morithias
2012-09-02, 04:34 PM
Eberron and Planescape are my favourite "official" settings, but that said there are reasons why everyone in my group runs their own campaign worlds.

My favourite would probably have to be my friend um..we'll just call some "Some Random Guy" since I'm not sure his stance on me saying his name. His setting has multiple material planes but only one afterlife, and the material planes never overlap. That way he can run all kinds of cultures, settings, and so on without having to completely throw out continuity. It removes the whole Lord British Problem with not being able to let PC's kill off important NPCs without completely screwing over the setting. "Oh so you took over the world in this material plane? That's fine, we'll just play in this new material plane for the next decade of game time or so."

It was a stroke of genius writing, plus his first worlds were "Everything exists in my setting, save where it doesn't work with the new mythos". The Red Knight is the goddess of combat and tactics (along with every god from every setting that also has that title) but killing that stupid mystra will not completely destroy the laws of magic. Which means I can play any prestige class I want from any setting.

Eldan
2012-09-02, 04:58 PM
That just sounds very much like Planescape focusing on the material.

toapat
2012-09-02, 05:15 PM
but killing that stupid mystra

except that Mystra is one of a truely small number of gods worth keeping alive (besides the complete loss of Arcane Magic on a plane).

i think Wee-Jas the only other god who has a positive influence in terms of access to content.

Morithias
2012-09-02, 05:18 PM
except that Mystra is one of a truely small number of gods worth keeping alive (besides the complete loss of Arcane Magic on a plane).

i think Wee-Jas the only other god who has a positive influence in terms of access to content.

I stand by what I've said before. When you have something like that setup, you include backup systems. Killing ONE person, regardless of how powerful they are, should not completely screw over an entire planet. Imagine if you had a country whose entire military was linked to one computer, and if that computer died EVERYTHING was disabled. That's just asking to be sabotaged and conquered. I could see it happening once, but after the first time she died Ao REALLY should've installed some failsafes. It was after the next death that made me just go "yeah she's not a character, she's just a cheap gimmick to justify the whole "magic changes from edition to edition".

Hence why I hate her.

toapat
2012-09-02, 07:41 PM
I stand by what I've said before. When you have something like that setup, you include backup systems. Killing ONE person, regardless of how powerful they are, should not completely screw over an entire planet. Imagine if you had a country whose entire military was linked to one computer, and if that computer died EVERYTHING was disabled. That's just asking to be sabotaged and conquered. I could see it happening once, but after the first time she died Ao REALLY should've installed some failsafes. It was after the next death that made me just go "yeah she's not a character, she's just a cheap gimmick to justify the whole "magic changes from edition to edition".

Hence why I hate her.

The weave is pretty stupid, ill agree

also, isnt the Point of Ao being Ao to be a **** and not responsive?

Kane0
2012-09-02, 08:34 PM
I like Planescape, if that counts.

Pros: Very deep, complex and challenging. You can branch out in any direction you desire and things interlock fairly well. Lots of flavor and you never run out of things to do. Also there is always a bigger threat/consequence than the PCs so there is a much smaller chance they will trample all over your plot by murdering the next village they come across.

Cons: High powered, difficult to learn/maintain compared to other settings and oftentimes the deep philosophical nature of campaigns, as well as the politics. Not for the casual games.

Postmodernist
2012-09-02, 08:41 PM
I'm shocked that no one has mentioned Dark Sun. It's gritty, it's volatile, and it's awesome. Tyrannical Sorcerer-Kings, psionics, slavery, gladiatorial combat, crazy races, ecological disaster, and everything wants to eat you. It suffers from some translation issues in 3.X, but in 2E it was easily my favorite setting. Everyone had a wild talent, so anyone could be dangerous. The beggar you spurned could have access to a psionic disintegrate. There were crazy bio-grafts. Magic destroyed the planet. Halflings were cannibals.

Kane0
2012-09-02, 08:42 PM
Halflings were cannibals.

So ate other halflings or ate other humanoids? Either way that is pretty awesome.

Lord_Gareth
2012-09-02, 08:49 PM
Ravenloft.

That is all.

Postmodernist
2012-09-02, 08:50 PM
So ate other halflings or ate other humanoids? Either way that is pretty awesome.

Both, which is awesome. Eating intelligent PC races was commonplace. You could play thri-kreen, who frequently discussed how delicious elves were.

Dark Sun pros: Unique, brutal setting, lots of unusual options, compelling characters.

Cons: Weird mechanics, strange class modifications, easily unbalanced without an even-handed or judicious DM.

As for the others, I cut my teeth on FR, so I'll always have a warm place in my heart for it. Never played Planescape, though I've only heard good things about it. I always thought SpellJammer was kind of ridiculous. Dragonlance always felt like there was something lacking to me, as though it were too tethered to the books in a way that inhibited gameplay. Ravenloft was fun, but I only had the occasional foray into it. Greyhawk is always viewed as the generic setting, but when I played in RPGA, it took on a surprisingly vivid life of its own. Eberron is great for the aforementioned reasons.

That said, I am a firm believer that any setting can be great with the right story, the right players, and the right DM. I once played in a Rifts game (Rifts! The WORST SYSTEM IMAGINABLE!) that was terrific and everyone had a great time.

supermonkeyjoe
2012-09-03, 04:07 AM
Two settings, for two different levels of play.

low to mid level: Eberron. the lack of high level NPCs in the setting makes more sense to me, the PCs should be the heroes, the only ones who can save the day, there are no other high level NPCs who can fix the world-shattering issues, there are no gods to intervene, it's all resting on the PCs.

High level: Planescape. High level campaigns often involve lots of planar travel, planescape does it best IMO

toapat
2012-09-03, 08:02 AM
planescape does it best IMO

it could be argued that the lack of spelljammers spelljamming for planar travel hurts planescape, but then again, the Giant space hamster isnt that memorable

Zombimode
2012-09-03, 09:27 AM
The weave is pretty stupid, ill agree

also, isnt the Point of Ao being Ao to be a **** and not responsive?

I think the point of AO is AO being a transcendent overdeity, the Prime Mover, principle of creation, akin to the abrahamite god.

Madfellow
2012-09-03, 03:49 PM
The only official published setting I've ever played in is Eberron, and... I don't really like it. My opinion on magic is that it's like a good monster in a horror movie; the less you see of it, the cooler it is when you do see it. In Eberron, magic is EVERYWHERE. When you get to Eberron's level of magic proliferation, the world ceases to be mystical and just becomes weird.

One setting I'd like to try, though, is Ravenloft. From what I've heard, it's very similar to Magic: The Gathering's world of Innistrad, and Innistrad is awesome.

Eldan
2012-09-03, 04:20 PM
One of the biggest points of Planescape was that you do not have to be high level to travel the planes. Any berk can stumble into a portal and come out in Carceri.

Planar travel is (sometimes) easy. Planar creatures are given motivations beyond "Grraarr me eat player face!". Sigil exists as a nicely blood war free haven.

All in all, Planescape is often much more fun (at least to me as a DM :smalltongue: ) when the players are low-level.

Yora
2012-09-03, 04:29 PM
I don't even know how you would play it above 8th. Being in places you really shouldn't be is what the fun is about. :smallbiggrin:

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-03, 04:40 PM
The only official published setting I've ever played in is Eberron, and... I don't really like it. My opinion on magic is that it's like a good monster in a horror movie; the less you see of it, the cooler it is when you do see it. In Eberron, magic is EVERYWHERE. When you get to Eberron's level of magic proliferation, the world ceases to be mystical and just becomes weird.

While I can agree with you that magic is less mysterious and significant in Eberron, that's not really the point. The point is the magitech gives a skin for exploring modern ideas, while still having the meat and skeleton of a fantasy setting underneath.

Ironically the parts of Eberron where magic is still mysterious is precisely the parts I don't like; The draconic prophecy being the big one.

Eldan
2012-09-03, 05:10 PM
I don't even know how you would play it above 8th. Being in places you really shouldn't be is what the fun is about. :smallbiggrin:

Well, there is some high-level stuff like Squaring the Circle and Dead Gods that looks quite fun. I've never tried it, though.

Anderlith
2012-09-03, 06:26 PM
The only official published setting I've ever played in is Eberron, and... I don't really like it. My opinion on magic is that it's like a good monster in a horror movie; the less you see of it, the cooler it is when you do see it. In Eberron, magic is EVERYWHERE. When you get to Eberron's level of magic proliferation, the world ceases to be mystical and just becomes weird.

One setting I'd like to try, though, is Ravenloft. From what I've heard, it's very similar to Magic: The Gathering's world of Innistrad, and Innistrad is awesome.

I've never understood this line of thinking. Magic is functional. It has to adhere to laws. We may not understand all of them & such, but mysticism can only proliferate if there is ignorance, & honestly how do people who have experienced magic for centuries & have the ability to create new spells not also have the capacity to understand magic on a functional level? We have understood the "simple machines" for about as long as we have had cognitive brains, & we developed all of physics from those understandings, in most settings magic permeates the worlds, if anything magic should be more developed functionally than any form of physical technology.


/rant sorry, no offense, this isn't aimed at you

Tvtyrant
2012-09-03, 06:46 PM
My favorite is Spelljammer, hands down. Space Hamsters, hippo folk, bombards and space-pirates. Having a crew to interact with is always fun, and Elves are a legitimate threat as the xenophobic space-empire.

After that I like Planescape a lot, with its focus on the none-material planes.

For single-planet settings I like Forgotten Realms and Eberron. Forgotten Realms has the suped-up underdark to conquer and Mythals, while Eberron is awesome due to its high-magic item design.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-03, 07:01 PM
I've never understood this line of thinking. Magic is functional. It has to adhere to laws. We may not understand all of them & such, but mysticism can only proliferate if there is ignorance, & honestly how do people who have experienced magic for centuries & have the ability to create new spells not also have the capacity to understand magic on a functional level? We have understood the "simple machines" for about as long as we have had cognitive brains, & we developed all of physics from those understandings, in most settings magic permeates the worlds, if anything magic should be more developed functionally than any form of physical technology.


/rant sorry, no offense, this isn't aimed at you

The short answer: It's magic.

The long answer: ...It's magic. You're making a lot of assumptions about what magic is and how it works in the setting, which for some settings (like Eberron) they hold, but for plenty of fantasy settings they don't. D&D just isn't very fit to replicate these sorts of settings as a game system.

Here's an example I used once (not D&D): The Erath Empire was build by a cabal of wizards who discovered the secrets of powerful evocation magic. They trained lots and lots of specialized evokers (able to blast lightning and fire but incapable of much else) and built up a practically invincible army to conquer most of the continent.

...Then the mutable laws of magic pulled the rug out from under them. After about 70 years of dominating the world, magic changed such that evocation became all but useless and the Erathian civilization crumbled.

Anderlith
2012-09-03, 07:14 PM
The short answer: It's magic.

The long answer: ...It's magic. You're making a lot of assumptions about what magic is and how it works in the setting, which for some settings (like Eberron) they hold, but for plenty of fantasy settings they don't. D&D just isn't very fit to replicate these sorts of settings as a game system.

Here's an example I used once (not D&D): The Erath Empire was build by a cabal of wizards who discovered the secrets of powerful evocation magic. They trained lots and lots of specialized evokers (able to blast lightning and fire but incapable of much else) and built up a practically invincible army to conquer most of the continent.

...Then the mutable laws of magic pulled the rug out from under them. After about 70 years of dominating the world, magic changed such that evocation became all but useless and the Erathian civilization crumbled.

So in this world magic was understandable enough that maybe people could be trained in it's use, it had enough of a methodology to be taught consistently, but the people using didn't know that it had a law that could invalidate that methodology. Like the laws of electronics meeting an EMP blast

toapat
2012-09-03, 07:15 PM
Here's an example I used once (not D&D): The Erath Empire was build by a cabal of wizards who discovered the secrets of powerful evocation magic. They trained lots and lots of specialized evokers (able to blast lightning and fire but incapable of much else) and built up a practically invincible army to conquer most of the continent.

...Then the mutable laws of magic pulled the rug out from under them. After about 70 years of dominating the world, magic changed such that evocation became all but useless and the Erathian civilization crumbled.

pretty awesome twist


but that is what i most dislike about magic in DnD (at least as far as it is presented in mechanics). It is a little too mundane to really be magic, the laws are constant, it is significantly more stable and easy to learn then say in Magic: the Gathering (Where you have to spend a solid decade learning how to cast Lightningbolt), and the only reason why Wizards are going grey when you meet them is because of RaW Starting ages

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-03, 07:31 PM
So in this world magic was understandable enough that maybe people could be trained in it's use, it had enough of a methodology to be taught consistently, but the people using didn't know that it had a law that could invalidate that methodology. Like the laws of electronics meeting an EMP blast

That's not it at all, the laws of magic actually changed. Like if cherries suddenly started falling up all over the world one day. It took 70 years for evocation to stop working in my example, but it's possible to imagine a world where magic changes much faster. Newly discovered spells could become worthless within hours, not decades. Wizards wouldn't have spellbooks but would instead have years of training in conducting magical experiments to quickly discover and cast spells as they are needed, on commission.

You could also violate the teachability assumption: Maybe magic works differently for each person, so each wizard has to discover their own personal version of each spell on their own.


Point is, the D&D assumptions of how magic works aren't the only ones.

Anderlith
2012-09-03, 07:44 PM
That's not it at all, the laws of magic actually changed. Like if cherries suddenly started falling up all over the world one day. It took 70 years for evocation to stop working in my example, but it's possible to imagine a world where magic changes much faster. Newly discovered spells could become worthless within hours, not decades. Wizards wouldn't have spellbooks but would instead have years of training in conducting magical experiments to quickly discover and cast spells as they are needed, on commission.

You could also violate the teachability assumption: Maybe magic works differently for each person, so each wizard has to discover their own personal version of each spell on their own.


Point is, the D&D assumptions of how magic works aren't the only ones.

My point is that you can use the scientific method on anything. If magic can rewrite it's own laws then that is a law unto itself

Remmirath
2012-09-03, 07:48 PM
Planescape is easily my favourite published setting. Many people have already spoken about it and done so better than I would have.

Ravenloft is my second favourite. I like the atmosphere, and as an added bonus (to me) it's not a sort of atmosphere that I'm very good at creating and coming up with things for on my own - so if I'm feeling like it, then I go for Ravenloft.

I'm not really interested in most of the other settings, although I don't have anything against most of them. I have a slight soft spot for the Forgotten Realms, but that's only due to the number of computer games set in them that I like - I don't find it to be all that interesting to run or play games in. Not interesting enough that I'd forgo coming up with a different setting for using it.

I speak of the 2E version of all of those, in case there's any confusion.


I'm shocked that no one has mentioned Dark Sun. It's gritty, it's volatile, and it's awesome. Tyrannical Sorcerer-Kings, psionics, slavery, gladiatorial combat, crazy races, ecological disaster, and everything wants to eat you. It suffers from some translation issues in 3.X, but in 2E it was easily my favorite setting. Everyone had a wild talent, so anyone could be dangerous. The beggar you spurned could have access to a psionic disintegrate. There were crazy bio-grafts. Magic destroyed the planet. Halflings were cannibals.

Dark Sun is one I've always wanted to try, but have never found anywhere (nor do I know in person anyone who's ever played it). It sounds like great fun.

Lord Raziere
2012-09-03, 07:53 PM
My point is that you can use the scientific method on anything. If magic can rewrite it's own laws then that is a law unto itself

Yea, and if you can figure out how that law works, you can then design whatever physics you want. that magical law probably isn't a thing unto itself, but a part of the system in a way that makes sense; you just have to figure out the conditions that changes magic and do that, probably by examining the states of the world before it changed, then finding what all those states of the world had in common at the time. then you could try recreating the conditions and see if that changes magic or not.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-03, 08:00 PM
Yea, and if you can figure out how that law works, you can then design whatever physics you want. that magical law probably isn't a thing unto itself, but a part of the system in a way that makes sense; you just have to figure out the conditions that changes magic and do that, probably by examining the states of the world before it changed, then finding what all those states of the world had in common at the time. then you could try recreating the conditions and see if that changes magic or not.

I would argue even this relies on an assumption that magic can violate, but that argument relies on some amateur epistemological arguments.

Madfellow
2012-09-03, 10:44 PM
While I can agree with you that magic is less mysterious and significant in Eberron, that's not really the point. The point is the magitech gives a skin for exploring modern ideas, while still having the meat and skeleton of a fantasy setting underneath.

Ironically the parts of Eberron where magic is still mysterious is precisely the parts I don't like; The draconic prophecy being the big one.

Yeah, I can agree that that's a cool goal to pursue for a fantasy setting, but personally I would have preferred it if the world just used 1920s technology instead of ubiquitous magic that mimicked 1920s technology. It's just a personal preference that I have for magic being rare and mysterious, and I understand that that's not the only way to approach the concept.

The core rules for D&D don't really lean one way or another in terms of mysticism vs mundanity for magic. On the one hand, 7 of the 11 core PC classes can cast spells, and of the remaining 4, one of them gains a ton of supernatural abilities that aren't spells. On the other hand, the DM's Guide says that only about 1 in every 200 individuals has a talent for magic (whether it be the intelligence and inclination to study it, the faith to pray for it, or the natural inspiration to produce it). It's very easy to make a campaign where magic is ever-present, but DMs can make worlds where magic is rarer and more dangerous.

Corvus
2012-09-04, 04:07 AM
Dark Sun, easily. So unique and terrifyingly difficult. There is a reason why you started with enhanced stats and still had to start with a stable of characters.

Just ignore the novels which wrecked the setting and you are fine.

Scots Dragon
2012-09-04, 04:45 AM
For me, I have a few favourites.

The first has to be Forgotten Realms, being the setting that introduced me to Dungeons & Dragons to begin with by way of the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series. As well as a few of the better novels. It's not a great setting, but it's one that I'm personally fond of, and it's open-ended enough to run a fairly straightforward fantasy campaign in there, with a lot of available villains and plot-hooks to run with.

Along a rather similar line is the Dragonlance campaign setting, for the characters and the storyline. As long as you ignore the Fifth Age, that is. It's a little less open gaming-wise, but it's got a few interesting concepts, and I've always liked the way that the magic works in tune with the moons of Krynn and the deities who represent them.

Dark Sun, for its greater uniqueness, and its veritably Gygaxian levels of sheer brutality and difficulty. It's probably the single most badarse setting I've ever seen, merging the gritty action of Robert E. Howard-style fantasy with a very Jack Vance-esque dying world. Coupled with the fact that it has some of the better characters, I have to admit that it's easily one of my favourite settings.

I must also mention Ravenloft, because it helps to show off the genre based versatility of the D&D line. Where Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk and Dragonlance are fairly straightforward Tolkien fantasy with more than a few hints of Howard and Moorcock, the fantastical elements of Ravenloft for the most part help to feed into themes more reminiscent of Gothic Horror. And Strahd Von Zarovitch being Dracula as a D&D necromancer is really one of my favourite concepts.

More traditional-fantasy but weirder in other respects is Council of Wyrms. Because playing a dragon player character is awesome.

Even farther afield is Spelljammer, which wasn't a great setting in terms of execution, but had so many wonderful and weird ideas that I can't help but be fond of it. While Eberron is credited with being the most arguably creative D&D campaign setting, I do not see how it is even a blip on the radar next to Spelljammer. Beholders with a vast Dalek-esque empire, Mind Flayers attempting to conquer the universe, space-adventures where dragon-riding heroes battle sailing warships in the void above worlds such as Krynn and Toril. It was weird, wonderful and truly very unique.

But ultimately, my favourite overall is Planescape. It's really hard to tell where to begin with Planescape, but I suppose the first and foremost thing is that it's weird. It's like the result of Guy Ritchie and China Míeville tripping acid whilst reading through the works of Arthur Conan Doyle and Charles Dickens. It manages to provide material for existentialist works of mythological exploration, exploring the sheer infinity of the Outer Planes, at the same time as providing an urban centrepoint with various factions vying for control of the same interplanar city. I just hope that the 5e designers see fit to explore the awesomeness that is Planescape once again.

I must also give secondary runner-up praise to Golarion, for its sheer variety, as well as to Birthright for trying something new. I also happen to like what I've seen of Mystara and its various elements and storylines, but I admit that I haven't seen enough of it to make any really informed judgements. Greyhawk is just that little too far on the opposite side of generic, but I'll admit that it's got its benefits.


On the other end, I hate Eberron with the intensity of a thousand suns, and I have little patience for Nentir Vale.

Yora
2012-09-04, 05:13 AM
It's like the result of Guy Ritchie and China Míeville tripping acid whilst reading through the works of Arthur Conan Doyle and Charles Dickens.
It's like written by Walter Moers and produced by Terry Gilliam. :smallbiggrin:

I consider Moers Zamonia books to be inofficial Planescape novels.
One of the protagonists looks just like this (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/demarax.gif).
And (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3o0ixSYWN1r48slwo1_1280.png) these (http://www.yopi.de/image/prod_pics/604/alternative/b/11473.jpg) are actual artwork from one of the books.

EccentricCircle
2012-09-04, 05:15 AM
I tend to steer clear of the published settings when running games, mainly because creating a world is a part of the process that I really enjoy. I would far rather spend my time drawing maps and writing timelines than trying to memorise every facet of the forgotten realms to a sufficient level to DM it. (although I do frequently read setting books as they are great sources of inspiration.)

The only world i've read which made me want to run games set directly in it was Eberron. the scope and scale of the world are excellent, although I don't agree with all aspects of it. it provides enough plot hooks and interesting places to make you think, "Yes, I want to tell that story!" Dark sun almost does that, but doesn't quite cut it. i'd happily steal ideas from it, but probably wouldn't use it out of the book.

I have run a number of spelljammer games, but most haven't refered much to the spelljammer lore itself and so it was more of a way of playing D&D than it was a setting. I was happy creating my own planets and factions rather than using the elf empire or having the PC's go back to the Rock of Braal every time they needed to resupply.

I've not read enough of the original planescape lore, but have run a game based on the information presented on sigil in the 3.5/4e books which was great fun.

On the issue of magic being too mundane in many settings, I'd argue that it doesn't have to be. A lot of people have pointed out the prevalence of magical classes in the game and how anyone can be a wizard. this is certainly true by rules as written, but ultimately D&D isn't a game about the rules as written. It's a tool box to allow players and DM's to tell the stories they want to tell. Magic has to be simple and straightforward so that the players can understand it and playing a wizard doesn't become too difficult to be a viable option. But in my opionion this is purely a metagame concern. magic can be difficult, or dangerous, or subtle. The wizard PC might very well be one of only five magi in the entire world. The rules of the game would suggest not, but ultimately its in the hands of the DM's.

One of my most popular campaigns is set in a city where magic is illegal, as its widely believed that it eats your soul and turns you to evil. This may or may not be true, I have no comment on the matter. But the very fact that this is believed and that the Inquisition actively hunt down magi leads to a fascinating dynamic Because magi are persecuted all sorcerers are renegades and so not very common at all. however the criminal underworld is full of magically able people, as it is the only avenue for many of them to use their powers. The most powerful thieves guilds are headed by the people who used arcane power to triumph over their rivals, which in turn makes them the most dangerous people on the inquisition's wanted list. Magic still works by D&D rules. with no changes to the mechanics. but the social and political context of the campaign makes magic items rarer (and dnagerous to own). spell casters are fewer in total (although the PC's tend to move in circles where they can meet other casters) and even after several years of play no one knows for sure whether magic is dangerous or not, (although a lot of players have opinions on the matter).

The Rules of the Game don't need to make magic mysterious and difficult for it to be mysterious and difficult. thats the DM's job if they want to play in that sort of world. Should there be more published worlds where magic is difficult and mysterious? Yes. But thats another matter entirely.

Eldan
2012-09-04, 04:48 PM
It's like written by Walter Moers and produced by Terry Gilliam. :smallbiggrin:

I consider Moers Zamonia books to be inofficial Planescape novels.
One of the protagonists looks just like this (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/demarax.gif).
And (http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3o0ixSYWN1r48slwo1_1280.png) these (http://www.yopi.de/image/prod_pics/604/alternative/b/11473.jpg) are actual artwork from one of the books.

Let's see. For inspirations, we have Moers, Gilliam, Dickens and Mieville. I think we should add Gaiman too. And maybe Pratchett, for some games.

Barmoz
2012-09-04, 10:48 PM
Dark Sun hands down is my favorite, with some slight modifications made from Athas.org forum material and my own tweaking. FR had some really good stuff in 2nd edition, but I felt 3rd was a step back and 4th was a giant leap back. Planescape was amazing, I bought every single boxed set and supplement even knowing I'd never use them in gameplay, just for the enjoyment of reading them.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-09-04, 11:19 PM
FR had some really good stuff in 2nd edition, but I felt 3rd was a step back and 4th was a giant leap back.

I dunno, I think 4E Faerun could have been a decent enough setting if the serial numbers were filed off and it was sold as a completely new thin instead.

ShadowFireLance
2012-09-04, 11:20 PM
DragonLance, I mean, whats not to like?
Dragons... Super alien Dragons... More Dragons.....

Yora
2012-09-05, 01:56 AM
Kender.
I hate those guys so much.

WitchSlayer
2012-09-05, 02:44 AM
Dark Sun or Points of Light.

TheOOB
2012-09-05, 02:44 AM
I always liked Greyhawk. There is enough stuff there to act as all kinds of adventure seeds, but it's left undefined enough so that there is room to add to the setting and improvise without worrying about contradicting setting info. I also like that there are only a few high level NPC's, and none of them are the kind of person who are likely to show up and ruin a plot.

I find many settings,(FR specifically) just have too much published info, and have super popular and powerful NPC's (Elmister comes to mind) who act like Deus Ex Machina devices.

SimperingToad
2012-09-05, 04:32 AM
Homebrew.

Then, being the old coot I am, the original Greyhawk Folio. Enough material to give a general setting, but without so much fluff you can't make the setting your own. The framework without furnishing the house.