Durkon's Last Diamond Dust Speculation [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Toy Killer

2012-09-01, 09:51 PM

The situation at hand leaves the Order of the Stick with enough diamond dust to perform one last resurrection. [As stated here, first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)] I find it hard to believe that Rich would point out the fact without a future intent. If you disagree, I understand, it just seems awkward to me to point out and not have it relevant later.

So, I'd like to see who the fellow forumers think the dust will be used on later. I'd like to keep this thread dedicated to the speculation, (and I understand if anyone thinks I'm reading too deeply into this) so please keep any negative criticism regarding weather or not the dust will be used out.

My guess is Durkon himself, raised by Malak in the culmination of this arc, before continuing on to the northern continent. (Fulfilling both the prophesy of him bringing a dangerous force to the northern continent and returning home post-humorously simultaneously.)

KillianHawkeye

2012-09-01, 10:51 PM

While I agree that it's likely to come up again before too long, I disagree that Malack (as the priest of a god of death) would ever try to raise Durkon. He didn't even raise his own children!

Inane Octopus

2012-09-01, 11:24 PM

Well, Malack is the obvious choice, and it would be a nice bonding moment for the two of them.

Besides, Malack may not have successfully raised his children because they passed on and didn't desire to return to life. I doubt they had a compelling reason to return to the land of the living.

EDIT: Realized that yes, Malack's children are definetly dead.

factotum

2012-09-02, 01:07 AM

Given Durkon is supposed to be dead by the time they reach Dwarven lands, he has to die here (and presumably not be raised, because that would be a really cheap get-out).

ti'esar

2012-09-02, 01:10 AM

Given Durkon is supposed to be dead by the time they reach Dwarven lands, he has to die here (and presumably not be raised, because that would be a really cheap get-out).

Durkon does not have to die within the main plot at all - the guess that Kraagor's Gate is in the Dwarven Lands has only ever been that, a guess.

Although that said, it's a guess that I suspect to be true, and I think Durkon has good odds of dying here. I don't agree with the OP's speculation, though - arriving "posthumously" in the sense of having died at one point seems like a real cop-out, and I've never bought into the idea that Malack going to the Dwarven Lands would fulfill the other part of the prophecy in the slightest. Plus, I don't see him raising Durkon in the first place.

RebelT

2012-09-02, 09:09 AM

Toy Killer

2012-09-02, 10:50 AM

Durkon does not have to die within the main plot at all - the guess that Kraagor's Gate is in the Dwarven Lands has only ever been that, a guess.

Although that said, it's a guess that I suspect to be true, and I think Durkon has good odds of dying here. I don't agree with the OP's speculation, though - arriving "posthumously" in the sense of having died at one point seems like a real cop-out, and I've never bought into the idea that Malack going to the Dwarven Lands would fulfill the other part of the prophecy in the slightest. Plus, I don't see him raising Durkon in the first place.

I'm sorry, I should clarify.

The great destructive force he brings wouldn't be Malak, but everyone that the OotS is racing with to get the final gate. With him comes the destruction of the plane as they know it. Besides, I would imagine that the gods would get together to assist the ensuing conflict considering how much they stand to loose and gain from how the events hone out.

I always felt this comic was a little Divine heavy and wondered why. Now I'm beginning to guess that the final conflict with the last gate is going to super charge clerics. but that's just me reaching out and climbing crumbs of information.

JCAll

2012-09-02, 06:30 PM

Given that one of the highest honors a dwarf, and thus Durkon, can ever have is to die a noble death in battle and to "fulfill hi duty", I find it highly unlikely to be Durkon. I think you have to want to be raised, and I highly doubt that Durkon would agree to it. In comic 444 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), he states that he's "happy" after Roy died in battle, so I assume that a similar death for him, while he won't hasten the day, would be welcomed.

But Durkon knows how dangerous Xykon is. Dying in a glorious final battle and refusing resurrection is one thing, going down the mid-boss while the world is still in danger is something completely different.

Tergon

2012-09-02, 07:14 PM

Wait, wait, wait. I think we're skipping the obvious decision here, aren't we?

We know that Durkon will be returned to the Dwarven Lands, and it will be after his death. But who's to say that he won't be resurrected after he gets there?

Seriously, think about it. The Order of the Scribble divided up in a way that each of them would protect the Gate that was closest to their homeland. Serini took over the responsibility of protecting Kraagor's gate after his death, true, but it's still Kraagor's Gate and not Serini's Gate. The odds of that gate being in the Dwarven Lands is pretty reasonable, given this - it's not certain, but it's good odds. It'd be the gate closest to his homeland, so why not have it located actually in his homeland?
I agree that Durkon would be happy to have died a warrior's death, but my guess is that he'd not want to leave when the fate of the world hangs in the balance. So if he were to die as the OotS were appraoching the Dwarven Lands, they might choose to simply carry him to the nearest Dwarven Town and have a cleric there raise him so he can help them in the battle for the last gate. I mean, if Girard's Gate isn't where the story ends, then the heroes will have to go to Kraagor's Gate for the last battle. They'd want Durkon with them, obviously, and if the Gate is in fact in the Dwarven lands then he'd be at least arriving there as a corpse. But there's no reason he'd have to stay like that once they've passed the Dwarven Border.

Forikroder

2012-09-02, 10:58 PM

While I agree that it's likely to come up again before too long, I disagree that Malack (as the priest of a god of death) would ever try to raise Durkon. He didn't even raise his own children!

raising someone isnt that easy, hence Roys brother also wasnt raised, i think at this point its safe to assume that anyone who isnt an adventurer with a party or have some insanely high attachment to life would be unable to be raised

of course its also possible the kids were too young to even understand that they were "dead" and there dad was trying to bring them back to life

Wait, wait, wait. I think we're skipping the obvious decision here, aren't we?

We know that Durkon will be returned to the Dwarven Lands, and it will be after his death. But who's to say that he won't be resurrected after he gets there?

Seriously, think about it. The Order of the Scribble divided up in a way that each of them would protect the Gate that was closest to their homeland. Serini took over the responsibility of protecting Kraagor's gate after his death, true, but it's still Kraagor's Gate and not Serini's Gate. The odds of that gate being in the Dwarven Lands is pretty reasonable, given this - it's not certain, but it's good odds. It'd be the gate closest to his homeland, so why not have it located actually in his homeland?
I agree that Durkon would be happy to have died a warrior's death, but my guess is that he'd not want to leave when the fate of the world hangs in the balance. So if he were to die as the OotS were appraoching the Dwarven Lands, they might choose to simply carry him to the nearest Dwarven Town and have a cleric there raise him so he can help them in the battle for the last gate. I mean, if Girard's Gate isn't where the story ends, then the heroes will have to go to Kraagor's Gate for the last battle. They'd want Durkon with them, obviously, and if the Gate is in fact in the Dwarven lands then he'd be at least arriving there as a corpse. But there's no reason he'd have to stay like that once they've passed the Dwarven Border.

why do you assume that theyd be so quick to raise him? every Cleric would worship Thor or another of the Norse Pantheon, since the Norse Pantheon were directly involved in sealing the snarl there involved in the information blackout so they might have a problem with there clerics assisting the OoTS

plus i think the dwarf religion by itself is extremely agaisnt ressurection since it punishs dieing of old age, so every dwarf would die an unnatural death so ressurecting a dwarf is either A) denying the warrior his reward for his honourable death or B) helping a dwarf who died of disease cheat by escaping Hel so its pretty much impossible to think that any dwarf would Raise Durkon

plus jsut because Kraagars gate is closer then to the dwarven homelands then the halfling lands doesnt really mean that much, we know Lirians gate, Girards gate and Soons gate were all in the lands they were from so as long as Kraagars gate is closer to the Dwarven homelands then the Halfling homelands and is not in any of the countries the other 3 gates are in then even if tis a long distance from the dwarf lands its still Kraagars gate

Mantine

2012-09-02, 11:09 PM

In comic 444 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), he states that he's "happy" after Roy died in battle, so I assume that a similar death for him, while he won't hasten the day, would be welcomed.

He was happy because he thought Roy had died leaving some sort of big crack into Xykon's armor, which would have ultimately helped in defeating him.
He wasn't happy because he died a warrior's death, but because he thought he fulfilled his purpose before doing so (and it's not like he didn't plan on ressing him afterwards).

I doubt he'd be happy about leaving the world for good while Xykon's threat still remains.

Forikroder

2012-09-02, 11:15 PM

He was happy because he thought Roy had died leaving some sort of big crack into Xykon's armor, which would have ultimately helped in defeating him.
He wasn't happy because he died a warrior's death, but because he thought he fulfilled his purpose before doing so (and it's not like he didn't plan on ressing him afterwards).

I doubt he'd be happy about leaving the world for good while Xykon's threat still remains.

he was happy that roy died a warriors death, Durkon would know that it would be impossible for Roy to put any meaningful or lasting damage onto Xykon jsut knowing that Roy tried and died was enough to make Durkon happy

Durkon doesnt care about the effectiveness or effeciency of an action he cares about Duty, thats why he refuses to ever lie, refused to break Roy out of Jail and refused to help fight Miko

Tergon

2012-09-02, 11:26 PM

Forikroder

2012-09-02, 11:33 PM

Remember when O-Chul killed Jirix, and he was raised by Redcloak? He told the story of meeting The Dark one in the Goblin afterlife. Even though he knew his place was with his brethren, his God told him that his place wasn't ready yet - he still had work to do in the realm of the living.
It'd surprise me if the Norse Gods were naive enough to not think the same thing. If a high-level cleric who's a major player in the battle to keep the Snarl contained is killed, it's a pretty safe bet that the Norse Gods would be willing to let him come back and carry on the battle if he chose to do so. And it's even safer that Durkon would choose that, because there's no way he'd be letting his friends go into the battle against Xykon without their trusty cleric of Thor to back them up.

We know that Durkon's corpse will somehow get to the Dwarven Lands. We know that the Dwarven clerics are capable of raising him from the dead. We know that the good guys would want him to keep fighting with them. And we have good reason to think that he'd be willing to come back from the afterlife to help them.
Just not really seeing the downside here, y'know?

1. Durkon is absolutely obsessed with his duty and the "dwarven way" to do things, its actually very possible that hed just stay in the hall and enjoy his rewards because hed assume that no matter what Thor would just fix any problem and the OoTS would eventually win anyway

2. Thor might not want Durkon to go back, the Gods dont actually see the OoTS as neccesary per se, if anything if Durkon dies he might jsut rat it all out to Thor who alerts the toher gods then they just unmake existance then remake it jsut to stop the Dark one

3. Gods and there clerics seem to have little to no actual communication hence Malacks and Durkons constant thinking that things are signs from there Deitys no way Thor would specifically come down to tell a Cleric to ressurect Durkon

4. the Gods are almost 100% likely to be in the dark about whats going on, or at least dont actually see it as a threat, if they knew people were messing with the snarl, much less what the ritual actually does, theyd unmake existance just to prevent it

so in short if Durkon does die a Dwarf would never rez him and its unlikely hed even accept the rez

Mantine

2012-09-02, 11:36 PM

he was happy that roy died a warriors death, Durkon would know that it would be impossible for Roy to put any meaningful or lasting damage onto Xykon jsut knowing that Roy tried and died was enough to make Durkon happy

I suggest you read the strip again, because he says the exact contrary.
Durkon clearly states how he thought Roy had given Xykon enough damage to be more easily defeated before dying, and that that's what made him "happy" about his passing.

Durkon doesnt care about the effectiveness or effeciency of an action he cares about Duty, thats why he refuses to ever lie, refused to break Roy out of Jail and refused to help fight Miko
Leaving the whole world and his deity in danger doesn't strike me as dutiful.

Forikroder

2012-09-03, 12:37 AM

I suggest you read the strip again, because he says the exact contrary.
Durkon clearly states how he thought Roy had given Xykon enough damage to be more easily defeated before dying, and that that's what made him "happy" about his passing.

Leaving the whole world and his deity in danger doesn't strike me as dutiful.

durkons one of the Clerics who thinks his god is better then every other god he doesnt believe Thor is in danger hes only doing this to fight evil nothing more because if there is a "game over" then Thor gives them a "restart" either by destroying the world and remaking it or setting up another party to oppose Xykon, in Durkons eyes even if he dies Thor will send them another Cleric jsut like how Thor sent them to Azure city to meet Shojo

also Durkon said he was happy becuase he thought Roy was thinking that any damage he did to Xykon would make it easier to finish him off later, he enver said that he actualy thought Roy had a chance in actually doing anything to Xykon nor did he imply he thought Roy did

Tergon

2012-09-03, 12:42 AM

1. Durkon is absolutely obsessed with his duty and the "dwarven way" to do things, its actually very possible that hed just stay in the hall and enjoy his rewards because hed assume that no matter what Thor would just fix any problem and the OoTS would eventually win anywayIf Durkon believed that, why would he have even joined tOotS in the forst place? Why would he bother gaining levels and fighting enemies if he thought Thor would fix any problem and victory was guaranteed? No, the whole reason Durkon's a member of tOotS is because he recognizes that Xykon and the Snarl pose a terrible threat that needs to be stopped. And if he truly believed that being dead meant you were out of the game permanently, he wouldn't have brought Roy back to re-join the battle. Durkon exists in a world where death is not permanent, the Gods expect you to fend for yourself, and he doesn't want existence to be wiped out. Him voluntarily choosing to abandon the battle - and choosing not to be resurrected would be exactly that - would be massively out of character for him.

2. Thor might not want Durkon to go back, the Gods dont actually see the OoTS as neccesary per se, if anything if Durkon dies he might jsut rat it all out to Thor who alerts the toher gods then they just unmake existance then remake it jsut to stop the Dark oneSadly, that won't happen. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) The Gods view the option of remaking the world as a last resort; they'll let this world fight for its own survival before remaking it to re-trap the snarl. To the best information we currently have, the World will only be remade if the Gods have no other way to defeat the Snarl if it once again escapes from its prison.

3. Gods and there clerics seem to have little to no actual communication hence Malacks and Durkons constant thinking that things are signs from there Deitys no way Thor would specifically come down to tell a Cleric to ressurect DurkonThor, no. But there's a much simpler option. The heroes walk into a Dwarven town and head to the local house of worship. They have a dead Durkon on a cart. They hand the local cleric a bag of diamond dust and a bag of gp and say, "Cast Resurrection, please." That cleric has exactly zero reason to say no. Even if he thinks that resurrecting a Dwarf isn't a good thing, he knows that the person being resurrected can simply refuse to come back, so all the cleric loses is ten minutes of his life and gains a bag of gold for doing so. It'd be completely insane if that DIDN'T work.

4. the Gods are almost 100% likely to be in the dark about whats going on, or at least dont actually see it as a threat, if they knew people were messing with the snarl, much less what the ritual actually does, theyd unmake existance just to prevent itOn the contrary. If the middle-management Lawful Good being that judged Roy's life knew about the work he'd done battling Xykon and the Snarl? So does everyone else in the higher planes. We're talking about the Gods and the only being in creation who can legitimately kill them, here, after all - if their support staff hanging around heaven have information on the Snarl, there is exactly zero chance that the Gods haven't been informed, since this is probably the most important thing in existence for them to know right now. But they're letting the mortals play out the battle to see who wins, rather than simply destroy the world and start from scratch.

so in short if Durkon does die a Dwarf would never rez him and its unlikely hed even accept the rez
It's not an if, it's a when. We have it confirmed by the Oracle that Durkon is definitely going to die before he returns to the Dwarven lands. We have no reason at all to believe that another Dwarf would refuse to resurrect him if he wanted to come back - the Dwarves may be traditional and strict, but if they didn't believe in resurrecting the fallen, Durkon wouldn't be capalbe of doing it in the first place. And we have no reason at all to think that Durkon wouldn't want to come back besides "he's a bit grumpy sometimes", which is a pretty flimsy excuse for saying that he'd abandon his friends and the fate of all creation.
If Kraagor's Gate is in fact in the Dwarven Lands, which is at the very least extremely possible, I see no reason why this wouldn't work. I'm not saying that it's definitely what's going to happen, we don't know that yet, but it's at the very least a perfectly reasonable possibility.

Forikroder

2012-09-03, 01:08 AM

If Durkon believed that, why would he have even joined tOotS in the forst place? Why would he bother gaining levels and fighting enemies if he thought Thor would fix any problem and victory was guaranteed? No, the whole reason Durkon's a member of OotS is because he recognizes that Xykon and the Snarl pose a terrible threat that needs to be stopped. And if he truly believed that being dead meant you were out of the game permanently, he wouldn't have brought Roy back to re-join the battle. Durkon exists in a world where death is not permanent, the Gods expect you to fend for yourself, and he doesn't want existence to be wiped out. Him voluntarily choosing to abandon the battle - and choosing not to be resurrected would be exactly that - would be massively out of character for him.

1. Roy is not a Dwarf and not bound by DWarf tules and customs, which is why Belkar is still alive

2. Thor asks that his children be ready to smash evil in the the face with a big hammer wherever it be found, its pretty clear that Thor is not interested in personally smiting every single evil-doer so thats why the Clerics of Thor exist to deal with the evil in the world the gods are not there to directly interfere with every little problem

Sadly, that won't happen. The Gods view the option of remaking the world as a last resort; they'll let this world fight for its own survival before remaking it to re-trap the snarl. To the best information we currently have, the World will only be remade if the Gods have no other way to defeat the Snarl if it once again escapes from its prison.

well i think you should remove the "no other way" part if they knew a way to stop it they wouldnt ahve gone through all the effort of creating existance around it, but if the learn about the Dark ones ritual they would probably directly interfere

That cleric has exactly zero reason to say no.

except that Dwarves are that stubborn, there are literally 2 possible scenarios if a Dwarf Cleric finds a dead dwarf
1) the Dwarf died an honourable death and deserves nothing but respect and peace for his sacrifice and doing anything else is sacrilige against the gods and there ancesters

2) the Dwarf died a dishonourable death and ressurected him is sacrilage against the Gods and helping somone avoid there divine punishment

neither one is very likely considering Durkon seems to be the standard dwarf

On the contrary. If the middle-management Lawful Good being that judged Roy's life knew about the work he'd done battling Xykon and the Snarl? So does everyone else in the higher planes. We're talking about the Gods and the only being in creation who can legitimately kill them, here, after all - if their support staff hanging around heaven have information on the Snarl, there is exactly zero chance that the Gods haven't been informed, since this is probably the most important thing in existence for them to know right now. But they're letting the mortals play out the battle to see who wins, rather than simply destroy the world and start from scratch.

they know Xykon has a plan to get enough power to rule the material plane, they dont know that the dark one has a plan to rule all creation

BIG difference

no reason at all to believe that another Dwarf would refuse to resurrect him if he wanted to come back

aside from the reasons already offered, Durkon was overjoyed to learn hed die and return home to be buried with his ancesters, why would he ruin it by coming back to life?

the Dwarves may be traditional and strict, but if they didn't believe in resurrecting the fallen, Durkon wouldn't be capalbe of doing it in the first place

they dont believe in ressurectiong fallen Dwarves, roy is still not a dwarf

which is a pretty flimsy excuse for saying that he'd abandon his friends and the fate of all creation.

all hed do is let Thor bring some other Hero to finish off Xykon and let himself enjoy his rest, he doesnt know about Redcloaks plan

If Kraagor's Gate is in fact in the Dwarven Lands, which is at the very least extremely possible

no its POSSIBLE not EXTREMELY possible since theres no evidence that even points to it being in dwarven lands, we only know it was clsoe to dwarven lands

Tergon

2012-09-03, 02:09 AM

Rather than do another link-and-paste, I'll just save space here.

Durkon is a Dwarven Cleric who learned the Resurrection spell. If he didn't believe in casting that spell, why would he have learned it? He's the same alignment as Roy, they'd wind up in exactly the same heaven, yet he has no qualms whatsoever about pulling Roy out of that heaven simply because he's of a different race. That's what you're arguing.
And as for Dwarves not believing in resurrection, give me one shred of evidence - one - that actually suggests Dwarves don't believe in this. They want to die honourably in battle? Sure, fine, but they can die more than once. They want to be buried in the tomb of their ancestors? Nothing strange about that - people do actually die permanently in this universe, their bodies have to go somewhere, and Durkon's glad to know that when he dies permanently his body will be laid to rest properly. All that tells us is that Dwarves are big on tradition, but I'm seeing nothing in that, nothing at all, that says "When a Dwarf dies, he is never resurrected."
Again - this is a world where Resurrection is a perfectly valid thing to do with allies who fall before their time, and that people do without hesitation if they have the resources, and you're going to suggest that an entire race of people don't do it even though there is zero drawback to doing so, and zero evidence to suggest it's the case. Despite the massive tactical disadvantage of losing their finest warriors and generals and leaders in times of war, despite the fact that their enemies do it, and completely ignoring the possibility that maybe Durkon doesn't even die in battle - maybe he gets shot in the back with a poisoned arrow. In which case, not resurrecting him would be cruel. To say that the Dwarves would never resurrect him, or that he'd never allow it... it's just nonsense.

As for the Gods not knowing about the Snarl and the Dark One's plans, or about whether they'd be willing to remake the world, let's be absolutely clear. This is the entire plot of the story.
The Dark One wants to increase his own power and improve the lot of Goblins. To do this he wants to remake the world or bully the other Gods into submission, either one. To achieve this, he creates the Crimson Mantle for his prophet to wear, and eventually passes the details of The Plan on to Redcloak. Redcloak, learning the plan, allies with Xykon and together they start attempting to take control of the gates. Team Evil's shenanigans result in Xykon being turned into a Lich. This gives Xykon the power to defeat Dorukan. Dorukan's death results in Eugene Greenhilt swearing a Blood Oath that is passed on to his son Roy. Roy forms The Order Of The Stick to help him carry out the Oath.
Everything about the story, every last bit of it, stems from the fact that the Dark One wants to remake the world. If the Dark One didn't want to do this, he wouldn't have put this plot in motion. And if he could remake the world, or convince the other Gods to do so, wouldn't that have been a damn sight faster and easier? No, the whole reason for the story we're following is that the Gods are either unwilling or unable to remake the World on a whim. The only way the Dark One can force them to do it is using the power he'll gain through the gates. So there is exactly a zero percent chance that the Gods will remake the world unless they have no choice at all. If this were not the case, we would have no story.

And, lastly, Kraagor's gate? I'm not saying it is definitely in the Dwarven Lands, it's a theory. But the one glimpse we've had of the location of his death is up in the snow and the mountains. We know that O-Chul went North to search for it. And we know that Dwarven lands are in the snowy mountains to the North. Yes, it might be outside the Dwarven borders, but if it's not in the Dwarven lands it's clearly pretty damn close to them. I'd call that good-to-even odds that the Gate is within the Dwarven borders. It might not be, obviously, but I'm going to stick with "extremely possible".

Forikroder

2012-09-03, 02:45 AM

Durkon is a Dwarven Cleric who learned the Resurrection spell. If he didn't believe in casting that spell, why would he have learned it? He's the same alignment as Roy, they'd wind up in exactly the same heaven, yet he has no qualms whatsoever about pulling Roy out of that heaven simply because he's of a different race. That's what you're arguing.

Clerics dont learn spells they ask there Deity for it so in other words Durkon could ahve never prepared Ressurection or even thought of preparing it before leaving Dwarven lands and joining the ooTS

and they dont wind up in the same place, the Dwarves have special afterlives set aside

Again - this is a world where Resurrection is a perfectly valid thing to do with allies who fall before their time, and that people do without hesitation if they have the resources, and you're going to suggest that an entire race of people don't do it even though there is zero drawback to doing so, and zero evidence to suggest it's the case. Despite the massive tactical disadvantage of losing their finest warriors and generals and leaders in times of war, despite the fact that their enemies do it, and completely ignoring the possibility that maybe Durkon doesn't even die in battle - maybe he gets shot in the back with a poisoned arrow. In which case, not resurrecting him would be cruel. To say that the Dwarves would never resurrect him, or that he'd never allow it... it's just nonsense.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

Durkon possibly dieing from poison is exactly why the Dwarves would refuse to ressurect him

and your really underestimating honour races like the dwarves, if they lose there finest warrior in a battle, they wouldnt mourn and cry theyd celebrate his life and say how awesome it is that he gets to move onto to his ultimate reward and look longinly forward in time when they get to meet him again after they get there honourable death

The Dark One wants to increase his own power and improve the lot of Goblins. To do this he wants to remake the world or bully the other Gods into submission, either one. To achieve this, he creates the Crimson Mantle for his prophet to wear, and eventually passes the details of The Plan on to Redcloak. Redcloak, learning the plan, allies with Xykon and together they start attempting to take control of the gates. Team Evil's shenanigans result in Xykon being turned into a Lich. This gives Xykon the power to defeat Dorukan. Dorukan's death results in Eugene Greenhilt swearing a Blood Oath that is passed on to his son Roy. Roy forms The Order Of The Stick to help him carry out the Oath.

no this isnt what happened at all

1. Dark One cannot remake the world, hes not strong enough he can only bully the other gods (assuming his plan works)

2. becoming a lich didnt really give Xykon that much of a power up he might have beena ble to beat Dorukon regardless

3. Eugene swore the blood oath many years before Xykon even met redcloak since Xykon killed his master

Everything about the story, every last bit of it, stems from the fact that the Dark One wants to remake the world. If the Dark One didn't want to do this, he wouldn't have put this plot in motion. And if he could remake the world, or convince the other Gods to do so, wouldn't that have been a damn sight faster and easier? No, the whole reason for the story we're following is that the Gods are either unwilling or unable to remake the World on a whim. The only way the Dark One can force them to do it is using the power he'll gain through the gates. So there is exactly a zero percent chance that the Gods will remake the world unless they have no choice at all. If this were not the case, we would have no story.

your correct in all but one regards, the dark one does not want them to remake the world since they wont let him grasp the strings of reality

also i dont think the Gods care if the snarl escapes, as long as they know he escaped and hide properly there perfectly safe and can just do exactly what they did the first time

And, lastly, Kraagor's gate? I'm not saying it is definitely in the Dwarven Lands, it's a theory. But the one glimpse we've had of the location of his death is up in the snow and the mountains. We know that O-Chul went North to search for it. And we know that Dwarven lands are in the snowy mountains to the North. Yes, it might be outside the Dwarven borders, but if it's not in the Dwarven lands it's clearly pretty damn close to them. I'd call that good-to-even odds that the Gate is within the Dwarven borders. It might not be, obviously, but I'm going to stick with "extremely possible".

just because it snowed where Kraagars gate is doesnt mean its close to dwarven lands it could be thousands of miles outside dwarven lands but still in snowy area

Tergon

2012-09-03, 02:59 AM

Wow. Um, okay, that's a very... interesting interpretation of the story thus far and of Durkon's character, so I'll tell you what. Why don't you read over the archive a little, and then once you're more familiar with the story of the Snarl, and about how Durkon acts pretty much any time he does anything ever, you come back to this point. Until then, this thread has been hijacked enough, and we'll just be slinging insults at each other. No point turning it into a flamewar.

I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong... let's just agree to disagree and let the thread go back to the original topic, shall we?

Mantine

2012-09-03, 11:50 AM

also Durkon said he was happy becuase he thought Roy was thinking that any damage he did to Xykon would make it easier to finish him off later, he enver said that he actualy thought Roy had a chance in actually doing anything to Xykon nor did he imply he thought Roy did

It's simply not what the comic says.
Durkon believes in Roy's leadership and honestly thought that if dying was what was needed for him to cause Xykon "damage easier enough for someone else to defeat him", that's what it was.
I don't know why you insist with this falsity.

Forikroder

2012-09-03, 11:55 AM

It's simply not what the comic says.
Durkon believes in Roy's leadership and honestly thought that if dying was what was needed for him to cause Xykon "damage easier enough for someone else to defeat him", that's what it was.
I don't know why you insist with this falsity.

:durkon: "Aye, an tha is why i'm happy. I know Roy, he porb'bly figured tha any damage he done ta Xykon would make it tha much easier fer someone else to beat him. The means he died fulfillin' his duty, just like a dwarf. I cannae be sad knowin' me friend got such a good and worthy death."

thats exactly what he said, word for word, nowhere does he say or even imply that he though roy did a smart move or actually managed to accomplish anything, all he cares about is that Roy died fighting Xykon and secured him an honourable death

of all the people in the party Durkons the one that Roy talked most to about his worries that he isnt actually capable of hurting Xykon so Durkon should realise Roy didnt actually hurt Xykon and the msot Roy did was buy them some time

Mantine

2012-09-03, 12:58 PM

I always love the argument "there's no indication that points your way, so it HAS to be MY way!"

...No, doesn't work like that.
I got tired of repeating it, but Durkon values Roy's leadership and decisions.
He didn't mention dying an honorable death at all, he mentioned "fulfilling his duty", if he thought Roy had died in vain he simply wouldn't have taken it with so much happiness and said those specific words. He believed his actions had impact, hence his happiness, despite his demise.

But I honestly grow tired of this, so believe what you want.

Forikroder

2012-09-03, 01:54 PM

Mantine

2012-09-03, 02:34 PM

Roys duty is to fight Xykon, Roy died fighting Xykon and so did his duty and died like good dwarf should

If you completely ignore the whole "died while leaving him with enough lasting damage to be defeated", sure.

Tergon

2012-09-03, 05:51 PM

Yeah, there's a reason I stopped trying to argue with him, Mantime. Frankly there are less irritating walls to bang my head against.

ti'esar

2012-09-03, 06:23 PM

Yeah, there's a reason I stopped trying to argue with him, Mantime. Frankly there are less irritating walls to bang my head against.

I'll second this.

martianmister

2012-09-03, 06:54 PM

We know that Durkon will be returned to the Dwarven Lands, and it will be after his death. But who's to say that he won't be resurrected after he gets there?

It's possible. But wouldn't that ruin the whole point of Durkon's prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)? Also, he said "How will I finally be returnin' to me beloved dwarven homelands." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) *sic*

Tergon

2012-09-03, 07:07 PM

It could go either way, depending on how the Oracle interpreted the use of the word "Finally". If he simply meant that Durkon would return to his own lands after a long absence, then he could legitimately be dead without that status being permanent. Or it could mean he's returning to his final rest, as it were.

Personally, I obviously favour the first option. But that's also because the characters seem to have accepted that it means "Durkon's body will return to Dwarven Lands and be laid to rest." Considering that every other prophecy had a twist to it, I'd be surprised if Durkon's prophecy is exactly what it says on the tin.

snoopy13a

2012-09-03, 11:33 PM

My guess is both Belkar and V. V's death will permit the evil trio to put their plan into motion. Belkar's death is to fulfill the oracle's prediction. One diamond dust means the order will only be able to bring back V.

Bulldog Psion

2012-09-04, 12:24 PM

Actually, it looks like Durkon, V, and Belkar are all likely to die soon.

I wonder how they're going to get the quest done without their healing and without most of their damage?

ManuelSacha

2012-09-05, 04:56 AM

I think Durkon would have known if this gate was next to his home.
Remember: it's not protected by sneaky illusions, like this one. It's protected by the biggest, baddest monsters a high level adventurer could find.

I think Durkon is going to die in the Final Fight (TM), and his body brought back home in the epilogue. Much simpler.

Unrelated comment: Tergon... yours might be the best avatar ever. :smallcool:

Bomaz

2012-09-05, 05:20 AM

No takers on Durkon returning home as an undead at the head of an army or some such?

factotum

2012-09-05, 06:36 AM

I think Durkon would have known if this gate was next to his home.

Because the Dwarven lands are only about 2 miles across and thus Durkon knows every inch of them... :smallsigh:

Seriously, as far as we can tell Kraagor's Gate is in a tomb that's filled with some of the nastiest monsters around. Nobody is going to know there's a Gate in it because everyone who goes in dies horribly, so all Durkon would know is that We Don't Go to Ravenholm, even if the entrance to said tomb is in his broom closet.

Tergon

2012-09-05, 09:13 AM

While you do have a point, the other gates weren't well-known either. Dorukan's Gate was just at the bottom of a big ol' dungeon, and nobody knew it was there at all. Soon's Gate was literally in the middle of a city, and the people of the city didn't have the slightest idea of that fact. It's possible that Kraagor's Gate is known to some Dwarves, but given the nature of the whole thing, I'd have to think it's more likely that if they want to defend the gate, they don't go around advertising its location no matter how well protected it is.

Emmit Svenson

2012-09-07, 10:55 PM

No takers on Durkon returning home as an undead at the head of an army or some such?

That's my prognostication, Bomaz: Malak makes Durkon undead, and the dread dwarf returns home as a terrible fulfillment of both prophecies.

theinsulabot

2012-09-08, 07:33 AM