How to destroy a level 20 Sorcerer? [3.5e]

[Scarey Nerd]

It's the final countshowdown (doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo-doo)

Okay gang, it's the big one. I need to kill a level 20 Sorcerer pretty much singlehandedly, and it's going to be tough, so I need your advice on tactics.

He is a lightning-themed Chaotic Evil (Bit of an understatement) Human Sorcerer, so I can expect him to be changing the weather to lightning storms, many line attacks, that sort of thing. He hasn't dipped into any prestige classes or anything, he's just a straight up Sorcerer (Which could mean he has access to things like Wish :smalleek:). Unfortunately, apart from the high chance he might have some NPC mages buffing him or helping him attack (Knowing his style, probably the latter), that's about all I can say for certain.

I am a fire-themed Lawful Evil (Again, "evil" seems like too weak a word) Human Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3. My invocations are: Beguiling Influence, Otherworldly Whispers, Eldritch Spear, Baleful Utterance, All-Seeing Eyes, Fell Flight, Brimstone Blast, Ignore the Pyre and Wall of Perilous Flame. I have 5 more to choose from my Warlock Levels, as well as a possible 3 from feats, if I am so inclined. I'm particularly interested in Caster's Lament (Greater Dispel Magic to counterspell sounds good to me) and Utterdark Blast, though I'm welcome to alternative suggestions, which gives me 3-6 left to pick. I have FH 1 from a plot-related incident, but so does he.

In terms of magic items... unknown. I need to have a discussion with my DM and the Sorcerer about whether we'll have a gold limit and the sourcebooks, or if it'll work in another way, I'm not sure.

Anyhoo, yeah. Please, playgrounders, any tactics you can advise, any devious tricks (Though preferably not too much cheese, I'm not a fan of exploiting game mechanics per sé), anything you think my DM would let me get away with, any magic items I should try and get, any feats you think I should pick up, you name it, I want it thrown at me. This battle is very, very important, its outcome will determine the course of our version of Faerun's multiverse's future in a big way.

Help me, Playground, you're my only hope.

[Glimbur]

You'll probably want Dark One's Luck to shore up your Ref save. You might also spend an invocation on greater invis, in the hope that he didn't take See Invisible. But he has more spells known than you have invocations, so that's risky. Could help v the NPC mages, unless they just Glitterdust or something. Utterdark Blast is good if he's not immune to negative levels. It's standard protection by level 20, but I'm not sure how high-op your game is.

For feats, Travel Devotion might be useful. Quicken Spell-Like Ability will let you shoot faster, which sounds like it will be very important. There's a two-feat chain in Races of Destiny (Heroic Destiny to Fearless Destiny) that lets you drop to -9 hp rather than die 1/day. With your fast healing that might be nice, but it requires a number of turns to work. Expensive, and you hate to plan to lose. Lightning Reflexes (get it?) is poorly regarded, but you might need all the Ref you can get. Of course, he can also cast spells against your Fort and your Will: Born of Three Thunders is a save-or-stun metamagic effect that fits his theme.

How mean do you want to be with magic items? Duels mean that you can use single-use items with fewer consequences. Elemental Gems only get you a large elemental as a standard action, but if you get a familiar via a feat and have it disperse Air Elementals you could distract the sorc. In fact, get a familiar if you can think of anything for it to do because actions in combat are better than gold. Dust of Disappearance might be too cheesy for you, but it's an option. Consider hiring a Crafted Contingency (see Complete Arcane) or twenty.

[robertbevan]

if "glitterdust" is part of his downfall, he'll be laughed at in hell.

[Rejakor]

Yeah, invisibility is a must. At worst, he has goggles, and sees you, so plan around that. At best, he can't see you. Most likely, he has to spend a turn quaffing a potion or casting a spell to see you - worth it regardless.

Take the dispelling invocation that lets you use a targeted dispel on someone twice as a single action. That should let you strip off all his buffs and turn off his magic items - i.e. sitting duck time. Don't bother counterspelling, unless you can do it as a free action or swift, it's a waste.

Pick up quicken SLA and if you're still drowning in feats Maximise SLA (check the warlock handbook for more info) but most importantly take Open Lesser Chakra and Bind Lesser Chakra and get a Strongheart Vest - stops the debilitating hellfire con damage.

Also possibly invest in a ring of lightning immunity, or, barring that, a ring of the forcewall (make a tiny forcewall fortress, shoot at the sorcerer around the edges). Also possibly invest in a staff of useful spells (like anti-magic ray), you're a goddamn warlock, work that UMD. A couple wands of useful stuff would also likely be a good idea.

If you're really stuck, have a stave with Earthglide in it, and snipe at him through the ground. If all else fails, have a masterwork feycraft(acts as weapon finesse) cold iron dagger, and a torc of antimagic, and turn it into a slap fight.

[Venger]

kill a level 20 Sorcerer
Use Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm)

You're a warlock, so have plenty of points in UMD, which transparency dictates functions with dorjes just as it functions with wands. slap him with CHA damage, he takes it even on a successful save and may be dazed. The save's not very high, and obviously you can't augment it, but it's a real helper.

One thing that arcane casters (especially sorcerers) rely on (sometimes to a fault) is rays. entropic warding can be very helpful.

flee the scene is an extremely underrated utterance, since it's essentially like mislead, but usable at will. Combine it with walk unseen and fell flight and you can populate the entire battlefield with dummies of yourself. Direct them all over the place and he'll waste many of his evoc effects on them. you'll only have one at a time, but if the real you is invisible, the fake you could easily be mistaken for short range teleportation effects.

there is a range on spells like true seeing/blindsight/etc. which, being utility, sorcerers don't tend to have on their lists. since he's a boss instead of being a real PC, I'm pretty sure he'll whip out true seeing.

However.

true seeing has a range of 120 feet. "prebuff" for the fight by using flee the scene a zillion times and then "charge" towards him (with a bunch of dupes) while the real you is above the battlefield under fell flight and walk unseen.

he'll see that the yous within 120 feet are copies, but he won't know about the ones further out than that and might very well try to attack them, because that makes a certain degree of sense (where do you hide a tree? in the forest)

however, you're pulling a gambit similar to the one Xykon pulled in order of the stick way back towards the end of paladin blues:

(in case people haven't read it yet/are archive binging)
when he made the skeleton, wight, and huecuva and sent them to attack the castle on 3 different fronts so the heroes would have to focus their attentions on all 3. roy figured it out and compared it to a shell game. when there are 3 shells, where is the ball? under none of them, it's up the dealer's sleeve. the real xykon flew in above the castle's wall with invisibility on him and some kind of zombie dragon thing. that's essentially what you'll be doing, but your number of clones will be a little higher, especially if you beef up your defenses with a wand of greater mirror image. you're a warlock, wands are your best weapon.

If you do take caster's lament, you may be able to dispel his true seeing effect, forcing him to waste even more attacks on the illusory copies of you. Greater mirror image will just keep them popping right back up again though.

it's all about focusing on your strengths as a warlock. you have infinite invocations. he has finite slots. if you keep trading at a 1:1 ratio (he recasts true seeing to not waste more lightning bolts, you cast caster's lament to nullify it, eventually he will run out of 6ths and also be stuck attacking copies as you pop around the battlefield with flee the scene, making him waste his slots even more, whereas your resources are much less depleted. if you can ping him with ego whip on these odd rounds to lower his cha, thus his bonus spells (and DCs if he manages to clip you with an AoE somehow, but you ought to stay out of range) then that's all the better. remember, it dazes if he fails his save (unlikely, but possible) meaning he loses his action, and you can use that round to flee the scene and renew your dupe so he has something to shoot at.


lmk what you think of these suggestions

[Scarey Nerd]

since he's a boss instead of being a real PC, I'm pretty sure he'll whip out true seeing.

Sorry, I think there's a misunderstanding... This is a PC. In fact, he's my character's greatest ally. But, due to artistic differences, I tried to kill him and he escaped and raised a nation out of the Sword Coast and the islands to the West, whilst I carved the rest of Faerun into a glorious Empire. I thought I mentioned that, my bad :smalltongue:

My UMD points are... um, lacking, somewhat. I've never been a fan of magic items with charges, both IRL and in character, for the same reason I took the Warlock class: I don't like having a finite amount of something. Invocations at will appealed to me, as do weapons that have an effect etc, but wands etc... I've always steered clear in the past. Of course, I have ~45 skill points to spread around, so I can always start bumping it up now.

One of my main advantages might well be: distraction. He might well have a group of mages to help him, but I'll have a force comparable to the Persian Army from 300 (I say 300 rather than history because in 300 they said it was about 2 million men, when in actuality it was more like 250,000, if memory serves). Siege engines, my own mages, it'll all come in handy, and I'm sure I can find a constructive use for a 100m diameter floating fortress.

Another problem is that he is dangerously insane (Ironically, I'm the one that was locked up in Spellhold for a short time, but that's behind me now. I made good on my promise and went back to that accursed building and took it apart brick by brick, then blasted the bricks into dust, and the dust into atoms, and the atoms into nothing.) His insanity means he's extraordinarily unpredictable, but it also means that he might well get very, very angry if he's being fired at by entire companies of archers. Unfortunately there's no real way of determining that before the day, so that ploy may not work.

Also, I just remembered that I intended to get the Curse of Despair invocation. Not for this fight, so much, though 50% chance of inaction every round=yes please, but creatively cursing one's lieutenants can keep them in line beautifully, especially if they're convinced that they're divine blessings...

[Rejakor]

If you have prep time and the resources of a nation, theoretically, your individual powers are somewhat null and void.

Incantatrixes chain metamagicing red wizard CL boosted obscure saveless spells should be the order of the day - as well as alchemy-wielding small kill teams composed of tower shield holders and net throwers with professional executioners to deliver the coup-de-graces - not even mentioning the various ridiculous hordes of mind-controlled planar bound devils, angels, genies, dragons, etc - and of course whatever special magical campaign-specific whatever you have on hand(flying fortresses, orbital planar cannons, magical nanotech).

But this sounds like a different sort of game, so aim to have your most powerful lieutenants with you when you go to the 'fight' and that's probably all that will matter.

A cleric and a war weaver would both be good ideas, although any number of wizard combos would be better in terms of victory. But a wizard and cleric to buff you til you glow would probably help if the idea is that you go mano a mano.

[Fable Wright]

One thing that you might consider is grabbing the Eldritch Glaive invocation. At this level, your touch attacks are almost guaranteed to hit, so whether or not you usually go melee is somewhat irrelevant. It also adds a nice dimension to the combat- you can wade into melee combat, which the Sorcerer is not going to be expecting, and proceed to deal high amounts of damage while forcing him to cast defensively or not move much. One of the dispelling invocations might also be nice, to take out his passive defenses that he prepared. Quicken SLA is also a good idea, as it lets you double full attack occasionally- and when each full attack is dealing 45d6 damage, it's going to pack quite a wallop. Starting combat with a Dispel, following up with a move to melee range, and then a Swift action full attack might close up the combat by itself. Using Invisibility to try to force them to start their round flatfooted, of course.

[Sith_Happens]

Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3?:smallconfused: I distinctly remember telling you some time ago to throw Binder 1 in there somewhere so you can bind Naberius and heal your hellfire Con damage every round.

[Rejakor]

I keep looking at this advice and going 'no! he'll murder you!' but then I remember this is a low op game and this sorcerer is seriously going to be walking around with Greater Mage Armour and Overland Flight as his two buffs and his super sneaky trick is going to be like a contigent heal or something.

And his Empowered Maximized Lightning Bolt is going to be his idea of 'teh awsumz'.

It makes me sad.

I want the battle to be truly epic. But it won't be unless the DM just makes it epic by himself.

[Pilo]

Pick the Scribe scroll feat, then craft a scroll of Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) (UMD difficulty: 23).
Cast it on a 20 000po gem then offer it to the sorcerer (as a gem, as a pendant, ...).
For more safety and success chances, you can craft a Magic aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) scroll then cast it on it.

[Scarey Nerd]

Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3?:smallconfused: I distinctly remember telling you some time ago to throw Binder 1 in there somewhere so you can bind Naberius and heal your hellfire Con damage every round.

Yes, I remember that advice, and I considered it heavily, but in the end its just not something the character would do. Binding a spirit to himself indicates a form of dependence that he can't stand. Not to mention he sort of has an essence of a powerful being "bound" to him after an unfortunate incident with a backfired spell after a battle, and that made him angry enough. I'd like to negate the CON damage, but he just wouldn't do it, not in that way at least.


I keep looking at this advice and going 'no! he'll murder you!' but then I remember this is a low op game and this sorcerer is seriously going to be walking around with Greater Mage Armour and Overland Flight as his two buffs and his super sneaky trick is going to be like a contigent heal or something.

And his Empowered Maximized Lightning Bolt is going to be his idea of 'teh awsumz'.

It makes me sad.

I want the battle to be truly epic. But it won't be unless the DM just makes it epic by himself.

You'd be surprised... With a group of mages at his command, a few hours with the Player's Handbook and the DM's approval, I could see him attempting some big things, though what exactly I can't predict. There's a small part of me expecting him to open a portal to the Seven Heavens just to spite me, things like that. You're right, it's a low op game, but our battles have always been pretty epic and flashy before now, if not amazing in terms of damage output etc.

[Sith_Happens]

Yes, I remember that advice, and I considered it heavily, but in the end its just not something the character would do. Binding a spirit to himself indicates a form of dependence that he can't stand. Not to mention he sort of has an essence of a powerful being "bound" to him after an unfortunate incident with a backfired spell after a battle, and that made him angry enough. I'd like to negate the CON damage, but he just wouldn't do it, not in that way at least.

Aren't warlock and hellfire warlock already both (usually) fluffed as having made a pact with some being or other in exchange for their powers? I suppose there's only so many extraplanar beings you'd really want to be tied to like that at once, but still. When you've already thrown some chips in...:smallwink:

[Psyren]

Aren't warlock and hellfire warlock already both (usually) fluffed as having made a pact with some being or other in exchange for their powers? I suppose there's only so many extraplanar beings you'd really want to be tied to like that at once, but still. When you've already thrown some chips in...:smallwink:

Not necessarily - they can both be fluffed as an ancestor having been the one to make the deal instead.

[Scarey Nerd]

Aren't warlock and hellfire warlock already both (usually) fluffed as having made a pact with some being or other in exchange for their powers? I suppose there's only so many extraplanar beings you'd really want to be tied to like that at once, but still. When you've already thrown some chips in...:smallwink:

I got my powers from a Demon, and I was indebted to him.

Was.

From the first session, I had two goals: Bring all of creation under my command (totally achievable :smallamused:) and destroy that Demon and regain my soul. One item on the list down, one to go... :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

Warfare in DnD is intricate and fascinating - the various tactics that evolve around individually powerful entities, certain spell combinations, extraplanar creatures, and essentially throwaway low level dudes is amazing to play out.

I'm sure it'll be an epic fight of hp damage and etc, but the opportunity for grand strategy of two armies testing and counter-testing each other's counterspelling, airspace defence, special unit vs special unit etc is probably going to be wasted.


As for negating con damage, two feats. Open Lesser Chakra, Bind Lesser Chakra: Strongheart Vest. Both from Magic of Incarnum.

[TopCheese]

Worship an Elder evil and gain 5 free feats.

There are a few that are fricken sweeeeet but one of the best gives you blanket immunity to mind effecting spells and such.

Sooo no matter what tricks the Sorcerer pulls to drop your will save he can never mind rape you.

But with that delicious cha you most likely have you could *bluff* that his mind rape worked.

Or his minion's domination worked... whatever could happen.

You sure up this with free feats from worshiping an evil elder (which you should be doing anyways).

[LTwerewolf]

Can always use dust of choking and winning to set yourself up.

[Venger]

Worship an Elder evil and gain 5 free feats.

There are a few that are fricken sweeeeet but one of the best gives you blanket immunity to mind effecting spells and such.
that's willing deformity (madness) while blanket immunities to mind affecting is awesome, you take a -4 profane penalty to wis. you also get the ability to use an immediate action 1/minute to add 1/2 your character level to a will save, so that's pretty awesome.



But with that delicious cha you most likely have you could *bluff* that his mind rape worked.

Or his minion's domination worked... whatever could happen.
I don't think you're allowed to do that. I think there's a rule somewhere that if you're a caster you know if enemies made their saves. the false pretenses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm) allows you to do just this. I'd totally recommend it for a character with deformity (madness), it fits thematically

[Telonius]

Two questions: Are you certain he has mostly lightning spells? Does he have Energy Substitution?

Depending on the answers to those ... Get a scroll of Shapechange, and change yourself into a Shambling Mound. Laugh as you gain 2d4 Constitution each time he hits you with lightning. You only lose your Supernatural abilities, not your spell-like; so all of your Invocations are still available to you.

[Venger]

Two questions: Are you certain he has mostly lightning spells? Does he have Energy Substitution?

Depending on the answers to those ... Get a scroll of Shapechange, and change yourself into a Shambling Mound. Laugh as you gain 2d4 Constitution each time he hits you with lightning. You only lose your Supernatural abilities, not your spell-like; so all of your Invocations are still available to you.

shambling mound is a great choice, and since shapechange lets you flip flop, another great choice is lord of madness's zeugalak. you're huge, have a breath weapon (also electric) poison sting, electrical damage on melee, electric aura, imp grab (since your enemy is likely medium

any electric attack deals no damage and grants you 1d4 points of dexterity. when you get zapped, 1/minute, you can use an immediate action to greater teleport to its source. that'll make it fun for yoursorcerer, having to cast defensively, or get a gigantic 1d10 str poison string that deals electric or a claw that autograpples him

plus free feather fall. you've got that too. just in case.

[Gandariel]

When you get zapped, 1/minute, you can use an immediate action to greater teleport to its source. that'll make it fun for yoursorcerer, having to cast defensively, or get a gigantic 1d10 str poison string that deals electric or a claw that autograpples him

that sounds cool. immediate action teleport on HIS turn when he attacks you, and then on your turn. make two full attacks with that eldritch glaive, you should kill him. get a belt of battle.

Also, try a Mass Dominate on his helpers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With your max ranks in UMD and your ability to take ten to always guarantee success, in addition to your ability to craft pretty much anything you want given the right feats, you should be able to win this without much issue.

The first step should be to make scrolls, wands, staffs, etc. of choice spells. A single staff can contain two wand chambers, so there shouldn't be any issues switching between them.

You need to prepare ahead of time with the following via scrolls:
-Greater Planar Binding for a Justicator (MM3), one of the perks of being a lawful character fighting a chaotic opponent. He should be instructed to use Dimensional Anchor on and Silence near your foe asap. Be sure you do it right, Magic Circle against Law and have the means to strike a bargain with it.
-Greater Planar Binding again for a Huge Storm Elemental (MM3) should also prove useful. Again when calling creatures you have to do it right and be prepared ahead of time to offer it a deal.
-Create Greater Undead to make Shadows, which could make short work of him if they manage to hit him. It's a shame there's no easy way to make Greater Shadows. Hire a bunch of NPC ditch diggers to dig a trench, and have a shadow you control go murder them to make more shadows which you control via the one that created them. It's a lot cheaper than buying/making a bunch more scrolls.

Next is defenses, which you use prior to the fight:
-Energy Immunity (electricity) (you can use this multiple times to cover all the energy types)
-Stormrage
-Ray Deflection
-Favor of the Martyr
-Mind Blank
-Superior Invisibility
-Moment of Prescience, to guarantee that you win initiative.
-Contingency: Word of Recall for if things don't go your way.

Finally you have your direct offensive actions. Here we go:
-Scrolls of Twinned Celerity (PH2), that's Celerity with Twin Spell applied to it takes effect twice. Equivalent to an 8th level spell. Favor of the Martyr makes you immune to being Dazed.
-Scroll of Gate
-Scroll of Disjunction, to remove any buffs he has.
-Scroll of Iceberg (Frostburn), or just Call Avalanche if you want to be cheap about it. Those are also guaranteed to bring down a flying opponent, and your shadows can completely ignore the snow.
-Scrolls of Time Stop
-Wand of Enervation
-Dust of Sneezing and Choking (wear a Necklace of Adaptation)

Ideally, you want to win initiative, hit him with Disjunction, then use a Scroll of Twinned Celerity during your turn to take your current turn's Swift Action. Hit him with another Disjunction in case he had AMF to block the first one, then use the Wand of Enervation to see if it works. If he does have AMF but uses Extraordinary Spell Aim or Archmage's Mastery of Shaping to exclude himself from its area of effect, the first Disjunction will still hit him because AMF doesn't block line of effect for spells. On the next initiative count after your turn use another Scroll of Twinned Celerity, it takes your next turn's Swift Action.

Use the Scroll of Gate to call a Paragon Fiendish Hellfire Wyrm for two rounds per caster level, it should appear within ten feet of him, and you should order it to use its Dictum spell-like ability (which will be at caster level 40) and then move away from him but continue to engage until he's killed and only ashes remain. Before the duration of that Gate is up you'll order it to return home and forget that it was even called in the first place. If he survives the Dictum, use a Scroll of Time Stop.

On the first round of Time Stop you'll use a Scroll of Iceberg, the glacier it creates appears but does not fall until Time Stop ends. The last round of Time Stop you'll use a Scroll of Twinned Celerity, and then ready three actions to use your Wand of Enervation on him as soon as Time Stop ends. Right after that you'll be able to use another Scroll of Twinned Celerity, Wand of Enervation again, and Time Stop again if necessary. If the first Enervation didn't work, just ready to use your strongest Eldritch Blast instead.

After this point you should probably hide and spam Enervation and/or Eldritch Blast. Between Superior Invisibility and Flyby Attack there shouldn't be any chance that he can target you with anything as long as you stay outside 120 ft. of him (True Seeing range).

[Socratov]

ehm... You can't really outperform a sorc at dealing damage (when he is anything like a mailman, defenses won't matter), so the problem is this: either killing him before he kills your (aka playing rocket tag), or making him expend his resources so you can pommel him afterward (and use the only advantage you've got over a sorc).

Option 1 is virtually impossible unless UMD-ing the hell out of yourself and frankly you'd only use Deceive item and Imbue Item.

Option 2 can be used in different ways: either you couterspell all his spells, or you play hide and seek (not assuming stealing spells, that would be stupid). Hide and seek has been explained allready, however, why try and endure spells if you can try and force him to not cast spells altogether? You have this invocation: baleful polymorph. Turn him into a sheep. he wont be able to cast spells an you will be able to burn his fluffy butt into hell.

(option 3: challenge him to a good old fisticuffs and proceed to serving a can of whoop-ass)