Magic more like skyrim?

[Seharvepernfan]

This has probably been brought up before, but anyway:

Instead of vancian magic, what if we used a system closer to what skyrim has?

You would have a mana/magic-energy pool, which is taken from when you cast a spell, but regenerates at a certain pace (dependent on various factors). Some spells are cast once as an action, and are either expended (like lightning bolt) or last for a duration (like stoneskin), whereas others last as long as you keep casting them (like detect life)...sort of a concentration method.

This keeps spellcasters from casting a whole ton of spells beforehand, and from having a ton of spells active at once. If the mana pool is much smaller than a normal spellcasters' spells per day, it also keeps them from going nova, at least to some extent.

Your mana pool goes up every level, perhaps exponentially? Maybe it's larger based on an ability score? Maybe some classes have a bigger one?

Stronger spells take more mana, either per casting or per action/round for concentration spells. Some spells, probably those that have an especially powerful or useful effect (like, say, teleport) not only cost a lot of mana, but slow its recharge rate for a period of time.

This would keep a spellcaster from divining your location, buffing himself, teleporting in and going nova. It allows him/her to do each of those things, but not all at once (or at least to a lesser extent).

This also eliminates the whole spells per day/resting/preparation problem. You still have to "rest" if you want to cast another spell if your mana is low, but you can just do something else in the meantime. Wands/staves/scrolls/potions are still useful.

A few things I'm not sure about:

-would some spells that are ordinarily a cast-then-forget type (like mage armor) instead a concentration effect? To further lower the power of spellcasting.

-would your mana pool recharge less quickly, the lower it was? (so, slower from 25% to 50%, quicker from 50% to 75% and so on)

-can you overcharge your pool at cost to your health? make you fatigued? to lower your mana-regeneration for the rest of the day? (or something)

-metamagic: would it still be a feat? would it just increase the mana cost for the spell(s)?

Naturally, this really changes the whole system. What is a cleric, then? What is a wizard or a sorcerer? Are spells still separated by class? How are they learned?

Still, I think I'd rather have something like this than what we have currently. It feels more natural to me.

I'd rather have robed-spellcasters be vulnerable unless actively defending themselves with magic. I'd like spellcasters to hide behind the tougher types in combat. I'd like them to have to use crossbows (or whatever) or spell-completion/trigger items more often. I want spells to have shorter durations and I want there to be less spells active at once.

In some ways, it actually gives them more flexibility.

Anyway, I was just thinking about this recently.

Thoughts?

[limejuicepowder]

How bout you just use psionics? Pool of points that are used to cast spells; the more points you sink in a power the stronger it is. It's been said a million times before, but it's how spellcasting should have been.

On top of that, psion and wilder is what the wiz and sorc should have been. Psions gain access to lots of different powers, including getting to specialize in a certain type of power that no one else can use.

Wilder only gets access to a handful of more generic powers, but they can summon much stronger versions of those powers compared to a psion of the same level. They also have some amount of natural gishyness, lending strength to the idea that they aren't bookworms (if the power is inborn, they should have time to focus on other things, like swinging a sword).

There's even a cleric replacement, called an Ardent IIRC. Not very familiar with them though.

[Yora]

Psionics...

[That_guy_there]

^
agreed.

For reference:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicRacesClassesSkillsSpells.htm

I had a friend rebuild the entire magic system in a manpool way, and after months of carefully redoing spells, building a balanced cost/ reward system for casting, and generating the pool, we all found that psionics, with a few tweaks got the job done just as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spell Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm).

I've played a serious caster in Skyrim, regeneration is irrelevant. Train up Enchanting and enchant Fortify Destruction on as many items as possible (ring, necklace, circlet, Falmer helm, clothes/armor), you can even put both Fortify Destruction and Destruction+Regen on a chest piece once you have Extra Effect. Once your total Fortify Destruction reaches 100%, your spells are free. If you have max Enchanting with all the pertinent talents, and at least a 25% potion, you can put Fortify Destruction on three pieces plus Destruction+Regen on your chest and have 101%.

Just make sure you have 350 magic to cast two Storm Atronochs (never get conjuration dual casting, don't bother with the permanent minions), and you can put everything else into health and stamina for the rest of the game. I didn't even get Adept Destruction or higher, you can use apprentice level spells until they're all free.

Edit: You can get a Hooded Thalmor Robe at level 1, and disenchant it to learn Fortify Destruction. From the Guardian Stones take the path up the hill, take your first right, when you see the path turn right and go downhill toward the river there will be a dirt trail going up the hill straight ahead of you. You'll find a bunch of bodies at a shrine to Talos, on the far side is a dead Thalmor wearing the robe. He always has at least one other magic item on him, and a note that I haven't found any purpose for other than explaining the scene. If you jump down opposite the shrine you'll find an iron ore to mine.

[Ernir]

The biggest problem I've had with all kinds of point-based recharge magic in 3.5 is... bookkeeping. A mana bulb that refills over time works just fine in computer games where you have a computer doing the math for you, even if it's at different rates in different circumstances.
But calculating recharge yourself? Unless the recharge is really simple (like it is with Psionics), it's going to get in the way.

[That_guy_there]

The biggest problem I've had with all kinds of point-based recharge magic in 3.5 is... bookkeeping. A mana bulb that refills over time works just fine in computer games where you have a computer doing the math for you, even if it's at different rates in different circumstances.
But calculating recharge yourself? Unless the recharge is really simple (like it is with Psionics), it's going to get in the way.

Ugh, my friend had thought about that and had a set rate that regained x points per minute based on your base stat. This way it didn't come up too often in combat but we had a steady supply of mana

[Seharvepernfan]

Could you just take spellcasters and plug in the psionic system?

That is, could I take a wizard and give it the psion's "spell" points and "spells" known, and take the wiz/sorc spell list and make each spell worth the same number of points as a psionic power of the same level?

[ThiagoMartell]

Could you just take spellcasters and plug in the psionic system?

That is, could I take a wizard and give it the psion's "spell" points and "spells" known, and take the wiz/sorc spell list and make each spell worth the same number of points as a psionic power of the same level?

You probably missed Spell Points when BF mentioned it before. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

[Wavelab]

I would really like to see a system like this. One thing you can do for cast and forget type spells is to follow the direction this (http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/11397) mod takes. Basically you invest a part of magicka/mana to keep the spell active and then you can turn it of to regain your mana.

[Mechanize]

Noob question here. Trying to learn about the magic system and its pros & cons. What about a spell point system is better than a spell slot system?

[LanSlyde]

Noob question here. Trying to learn about the magic system and its pros & cons. What about a spell point system is better than a spell slot system?

Well its very simple, with spell slots your average caster gets X amount of spells of a certain level per day. With a spell point system, instead of having slots assigned to spells you have a point cost instead. a level 1 spell would cost 1 point, a level 3 spell would cost 5. You get a base number of points from your caster level and bonus points based off your primary stat, int for wizards, Cha for sorcerers, Wis for clerics, etc. It gives casters greater freedom when preparing spells, instead of worrying about whether or not the wizard has prepared enough fireball spells, all she needs to do is select it. So long as she has the spell points remaining she can cast fireball all day long and all day strong.

If it sounds like it allows casters to Nova, its because it does. However, if your casters are silly enough to waste all their MP for the day on arcane fire, sucks to be them.

on a side note.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

Because even tho Biff and Thiago have posted it already, no one is really paying attention apparently. :smallannoyed:

[Igneel]

I personally really like using the Spell Point variant from UA, as by printed material comes really close to the Psionics mechanic. Course I suppose it helps when the games that I'm in and enjoying very much use this variant you grow kinda attached to it as opposed to slots after a while.


Noob question here. Trying to learn about the magic system and its pros & cons. What about a spell point system is better than a spell slot system?

Lets take an example or two to compare shall we?
Using the slots method, a 1st lvl Sorcerer with an 18 Cha gets 5 lvl 0 spells and 3 first level spells not including the extras from a high Cha modifier per day.
Using the points method, the same Sorcerer gets 4 spell points (3 for 1st lvl+1 for a high Cha but only able to cast 1st lvl spells at best) giving them 4 uses of lvl 0 spells, and 4 1st lvl spells before they run out of spell points.

Now lets jump to 5th lvl, assuming the Sorcerer snagged a +2 Cha item.
Slots- 6 lvl 0, 6 lvl 1, 4 lvl 2, +Cha bonus
Points- 24 points, for 5 lvl 0, max of 21 lvl 1, or max of 8 lvl 2, or a combination of those three as you desire.

And now just to save time, going to jump to 20th level, pumping Cha up with all lvl up bonuses, a +5 tome, and +6 enhancement item for a minimum of ~33 without other methods of gaining more Cha that I'm sure a lvl 20 character would figure out.
Slots- 6/day across the board from lvl 0-9 +Cha bonus spells
Points- ~385 points to be distributed however you wish with spells ranging in price from 0 (0 lvl spells) to 17 (9th lvl spells), so for at least only 9th lvl spells you can cast 22 times per day before you become critically low in spell points to the point you can't cast anymore 9th lvl spells.

I probably got some things wrong, but that's the gist of it. Hope this helped some.

[Seharvepernfan]

I would really like to see a system like this. One thing you can do for cast and forget type spells is to follow the direction this (http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/11397) mod takes. Basically you invest a part of magicka/mana to keep the spell active and then you can turn it of to regain your mana.

Yes! That's a great idea!



In other news, I saw the spell points link, but I wanted to know if you could just use the psionic system. Because if you use spell points, a psion gets waaay more than a wizard.

I'm still looking over spell/psionic points.

[Yora]

Could you just take spellcasters and plug in the psionic system?

That is, could I take a wizard and give it the psion's "spell" points and "spells" known, and take the wiz/sorc spell list and make each spell worth the same number of points as a psionic power of the same level?
Yes, you can. But the psionic powers have the advantage of being augmentable.
Augmentation means that there is only one "charm" power instead of a "charm person", "charm animal", and "charm monster" spell. If you pay for a 1st level power, than you cast charm person with a caster level of 1st. However, you can also pay more points and turn the same spell into "charm magical beasts" or "charm fey". Or with some spells, you can pay additional points to make it last for hours/level instead of minutes/level. And lots of other fun things.

If you have a class that still prepares spells every day, you should reduce the number of spel points to 80 or 70% of the number of points needed to cast just the same spells that the character could cast using spell slots.
Because with spell slots, you will often prepare spells that you don't use. With spell points, you can instead use the points to cast another spell you have prepared. With slots, you can't just decide that your fly spell is know a fireball, because you also had fireball prepared.
A spell slot wizard has to stop casting when he has no more spells that are useful in his situation. A spell slot wizard only has to stop casting when he runs out of points.
And also, a slot wizard has to decide if he wants just one fireball or three that day. A slot wizard doesn't and has to prepare it just once and can "waste" the other two slots on spells that are really unlikely to be needed and which a normal wizard would not prepare.

This makes a straight conversion much more powerful than the standard spell slot classes. One way is to reduce the number of spell points and another would be to limit the number of preparation slots as well. Instead of giving a wizard the slots 4/4/3/3/2, it might be only 4/3/3/2/2,
With psionics, you don't have all the trouble and can use it straight out of the box.

[LanSlyde]

Yes! That's a great idea!



In other news, I saw the spell points link, but I wanted to know if you could just use the psionic system. Because if you use spell points, a psion gets waaay more than a wizard.

I'm still looking over spell/psionic points.

The reason psionics get way more points is because they can burn more faster than magic users. Unlike magic users, a psions offensive abilities don't increase automatically with new levels. That 2d6 Energy Push is always going to deal 2d6. Unless of course the psion spends the additional PP to augment it. The wizard on the other hand automatically gets a stronger scorching ray spell as she gains levels without the need to burn more spell points.

So yeah, psions get more. They also burn more and will probably exhaust their powers long before the wizard runs out. Feel free to use the psionics system for casters, but if you do so you may end up putting your psionic classes at a disadvantage.

[ericgrau]

Seems like all you need is magic points, magic points per restored per round and cost to maintain buffs. For example:
max magic points = caster level x 2
magic points restored per round = max spell level you can cast
magic point cost to maintain a spell each round:
round/level or concentration: spell level (min 1)
minute/level: spell level - 1 (min 1)
10 min/level: spell level - 2 (min 1)
hour/level: spell level -3 (min 1)


You could still nova out 3 high level spells (2 plus 1 more from mp regen) but not while also buff stacking, quickening or etc. This is just an example, you'd probably have to play with the numbers a bit. Maybe reduce the regen if 4 rounds to full is faster than what you had in mind.

[SowZ]

Seems like all you need is magic points, magic points per restored per round and cost to maintain buffs. For example:
max magic points = caster level x 2
magic points restored per round = max spell level you can cast
magic point cost to maintain a spell each round:
round/level or concentration: spell level (min 1)
minute/level: spell level - 1 (min 1)
10 min/level: spell level - 2 (min 1)
hour/level: spell level -3 (min 1)


You could still nova out 3 high level spells (2 plus 1 more from mp regen) but not while also buff stacking, quickening or etc. This is just an example, you'd probably have to play with the numbers a bit. Maybe reduce the regen if 4 rounds to full is faster than what you had in mind.

This means a wizard will never run out of spells between fights. I mean, they don't run out of spells anyway, usually, but now they have their best spells for every fight, even if they do thirty fights a day.

[Seharvepernfan]

This means a wizard will never run out of spells between fights. I mean, they don't run out of spells anyway, usually, but now they have their best spells for every fight, even if they do thirty fights a day.

Hmmm...ideally, I think it would be best to have a system where you can't have your spells for thirty fights a day, but where you also can't go nova as well as a normal 3.5 caster (as I addressed in my first post, I don't like the whole "walk into a fight with a ton of pre-cast buffs, then blast the crap out of your enemies with 10 metamagicked spells" - I also don't like doing that after divining your enemy and porting into his office).

So, a spell-points/encounter pool, and a spell-points/day pool, where the encounter pool regenerates relatively quickly, but once the day pool is out, you're out. Kinda like 4E, but that doesn't really bother me too much, honestly.

So, a given character might have a per/day pool of 100, and a per/encounter pool of 30 that regenerates at, say, 3/round or something. In a fight, the character uses up his 30-point encounter pool, which regenerates in a minute, but now his day pool is down to 70. Once the day pool gets down below 30, his encounter pool is that size. Once those last points are used (and now they don't regenerate), he's out for the day.

And as I also said earlier, some spells should be difficult to use during or right before a battle, like teleport or clairvoyance.

Insta-edit: I like the idea of the wizard/psion and sorcerer/wilder comparison, preferably it'd work something like that.

Not-so-Insta edit: At 20th level, a wizard can cast a spell of each level four times per day, more from a high ability score and/or specialization. Ideally, the per/day pool of a 20th level wizard using the system I'm trying to come up with would accomodate much less than what a slots wizard could do in a day.

[Seharvepernfan]

The reason psionics get way more points is because they can burn more faster than magic users. Unlike magic users, a psions offensive abilities don't increase automatically with new levels. That 2d6 Energy Push is always going to deal 2d6. Unless of course the psion spends the additional PP to augment it. The wizard on the other hand automatically gets a stronger scorching ray spell as she gains levels without the need to burn more spell points.

So yeah, psions get more. They also burn more and will probably exhaust their powers long before the wizard runs out. Feel free to use the psionics system for casters, but if you do so you may end up putting your psionic classes at a disadvantage.

I see. Ideally I'd like wizards/sorcs to work the same way as the psion; paying more for more damage. I saw somewhere in the "spell points" link where that was mentioned for the casters. (so, a CL 5th fireball costs 5, but a CL 9th fireball costs 9 [or something])

Personally, I don't use psionics, but I still agree that the casters need to be toned down. That's one of the problems I'm trying to fix.



If you pay for a 1st level power, than you cast charm person with a caster level of 1st. However, you can also pay more points and turn the same spell into "charm magical beasts" or "charm fey". Or with some spells, you can pay additional points to make it last for hours/level instead of minutes/level. And lots of other fun things.

I see. I think it should be the same way for casters in the system I'm trying to come up with.

[ericgrau]

Another option would be to have a per day pool that doesn't regenerate until the day is over but otherwise is just more magic points. Once you use up your regenerating pool you'd dip into your per day pool. It might be something like:
regenerating magic points = caster level
non-regenerating magic points = caster level

This would mean you could cast your highest level spell freely once but after that you're either at half power or you're dipping into your non-regenerating reserves. And if you have even a single buff up casting your highest level spell once dips into your non-regenerating mp a little.

Or 30/100 like you suggested, or caster level x 1 and caster level x 3, or whichever. Though depending on the level 30 might let you hit hard twice a fight for an unlimited number of fights and the 100 might make that 3x for 6 fights. That's quite a lot. You can fiddle with the numbers quite a bit to find out what seems best so that's a secondary issue.

That leaves 4 things to track: your regenerating mp total, your non-regenerating mp total, the mp you regenerate at the beginning of your turn, the ongoing spell costs you pay at the beginning of your turn.

[Psyren]

If you're worried about nova potential, slash the number of points they get. That way, sure they can nova, but the risk of running dry too soon is much higher.