What is Xykon up to? (speculations) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

erewhon

2012-09-02, 12:14 PM

I recently got the print books, and have read them. Awesome stuff, Giant. :)

However, I think I see some odd behavior on Xykon's part.

First, after Xykon gets 'lichified' and the druid's Gate gets trashed, there's a fairly long period of passing time. In that time, Xykon mysteriously vanishes for three long years.

When he gets back, he's found Dorukon's gate, and mentions how he had to back-translate the halfling's diary to figure it out.

Wait. This is Xykon the lich sorceror, He Who Dumped Int....right?

How did he figure that out? More importantly, Xykon, after his return, seems much smarter in other ways.

He figures out Righteye and Redcloak. He gives the awesome philosophy speech while killing Dorukan. He instantly recognizes the MITD, and then successfully charm/dominates him. He double-thinks Redcloak into loyalty (for however long that lasts). Etc.

My personal theory? Xykon was frustrated because he was no longer getting more spells. (Over 20th level.) So he went out to increase his Charisma, and managed to score himself a Paragon template. Poof! +15 Charisma, hellooo a crapton of new spells.

But Paragon also gives +15 int and Wisdom, and +10 on all skill checks. (Not to mention +15 Str, Dex, and Con, which makes strangling Z much more plausible.)

Assuming Xykon had an int of 10(age mods), then Xykon the Lich has an int of 12. IF he got a Paragon template, that's an Int of 27.

Suddenly, it's also much more plausible that he's as savvy as he is. :)

But it gets better.

After his phylactery is lost, Xykon ...DOESN'T look for it. Instead, he gallivants off to the Astral Plane. Whut?

My theory is, Xykon has grown tired of being vulnerable to a single point of failure, and now has a backup plan in place.

"Xykon the Paragon Demi-Lich."

Has a nice ring to it. :D

Anyway, just my rampant speculation, brought on by reading waaaaaay to many OOTS' strips recently. :D

Move along, nothing to see here....

Chess Tyrant

2012-09-02, 12:30 PM

I doubt Xykon added a new template (leaving aside how he'd manage that in the first place, he's already nigh-unstoppable, and I'm not sure what purpose it'd serve in the plot), but I do think it's worth asking whether past disappearances are leading up to a reveal of some kind. Perhaps he was just off slaughtering monsters for xp and loot, but if he was doing something else - maybe even implementing or furthering his own hidden master plan - then we're in for an entertaining plot twist some time in the near future.

Toy Killer

2012-09-02, 05:00 PM

Does he ever explain where he got the crown from? Did he have it before getting Lichified?

zimmerwald1915

2012-09-02, 05:06 PM

Does he ever explain where he got the crown from? Did he have it before getting Lichified?
He stole it from Fyron. More details are to be had in the prequel books.

erewhon

2012-09-03, 02:19 AM

He stole it from Fyron. More details are to be had in the prequel books.

Indeed, he did steal the crown, and has downplayed it ever since.

However, nothing we know about the crown explains why it, in and of itself, registers so potently Evil that simply hanging it around your neck will induce 'false positives' that the character is evil.

We know in-canon that Xykon has long stretches when he is absent.

We know in-canon that Xykon spends eight hours a day researching spells.

(pause)

He's a SORCEROR. Why is he researching spells? Are they all Epic ones? How many Epic spells has he got, anyway?

Or is he researching OTHER things, like, say, how to give himself a template, or, how to become a demi-lich.

The beautiful things about demi-lich?

1) Alter Self. Maybe, just maybe, he'd be able to taste coffee again.
2) Nine, count-em, NINE phylacteries. Suddenly he doesn't care so much about the one Redcloak has been using all these years.

Remember, Xykon is all about the sheer brute force, seems like he'd be VERY interested in increasing his power any way he could go about doing it.

Just speculatin'! :)

B. Dandelion

2012-09-03, 04:51 AM

What gets me about that gap is how the heck did he gets his hands on that diary? I suppose by pure random chance he picked it up at a yard sale? Then on a whim tried to read it, despite the incredibly annoying prose?

It seems like if he bothered reading it he would have had to know it was important first. But how would he have known that unless he knew what he was looking for before he started reading, and if he did know what he was looking for... how? We've gotten some hints the diary itself is important, too. It seems like there's some story there we're not privy to.

But he didn't so much strike me as "smarter" when he met up with Redcloak again. He seemed more... driven. Purposeful. Before the Plan had mostly been Redcloak's thing, but then just as Redcloak himself was having second thoughts, Xykon gets the whole operation moving again.

Mike Havran

2012-09-03, 04:55 AM

...
We know in-canon that Xykon spends eight hours a day researching spells.
...

The 8 hours are devoted to making magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

I don't think he is demilich or other, more powerful monster. He is tough the way he is.

aberratio ictus

2012-09-03, 05:13 AM

Wait... Xykon dumped Int? Is that a fact?

raymundo

2012-09-03, 05:14 AM

The 8 hours are devoted to making magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

I don't think he is demilich or other, more powerful monster. He is tough the way he is.

I second that. A demilich would just be too obscure for the non-D&D crowd.. and not that interesting overall, imho.

Regarding the crown; I always thought it registers as super-evil because a super-evil lich carried it for thirty-something years?

Kish

2012-09-03, 07:44 AM

Wait... Xykon dumped Int? Is that a fact?
Well, he failed math. Other than that, I think a number of people greatly overestimate how stupid Xykon ever was.

(And a number of other people overestimate how intelligent he secretly is.)

About the crown, I agree with raymundo. The whole point of Xykon stealing the crown was that Xykon, even as a human, valued life so little that he'd casually kill anyone who was between him and looking slightly more badass. It would be undermined by, "Psyche, it really was an artifact after all!"

Tergon

2012-09-03, 08:10 AM

I think it's more what he remarked to V: There's a level of force that no amount of planning can overcome, and Xykon just happens to have access to that amount of force. He could be clever and patient and flex his figurative mental muscles, but he gets what he wants faster and easier by just pointing at something he doesn't like and saying "Meteor Swarm".

He doesn't trust anyone completely, and with good reason. So he makes his plans as simple and direct as possible, so that the only way to obstruct his plan is to stand in his path - at which point he steamrolls over you. He saves his cunning plans for when he needs it, like "accidentally" allowing Miko to escape so he could scry on her as she returned to Azure city, or the Sigil of Madness on the bouncy ball to slaughter the Sapphire Guard. And in the meantime, if those around him watch him rampaging around like a short-tempered idiot and start to underestimate how smart he really is, well, that only helps him.

coineineagh

2012-09-03, 09:37 AM

I found one of his quotes quite telling: "Don't confuse not knowing with not caring."
Xykon is aware of threats around him, and does what he needs so he can stop having to care about them. He wants to know the details of Redcloak's ritual, as evidenced by Tsukiko's assignment. Whether he suspects that Redcloak has been manipulating him all along, is unclear, though. Perhaps Xykon has another plan, like his very own ritual, and he's letting RC tag along just to see the look in his eyes eye when he finds out his lie was Xykon's inspiration.:smallamused:

Xykon definitely has a big reveal coming up, but what exactly that is, is anyone's guess. The three years of absence must have something to do with it, and how he got Serini's Diary is probably the biggest mystery of all.

Serini's Gate is still intact, so he somehow got it from her without capturing the Gate. Perhaps he killed her, but couldn't get past the other defenses? He did say deciphering the diary took ages, so that means Serini didn't just tell him her secrets. I wonder if some evil halflings helped out:smalltongue:

aberratio ictus

2012-09-03, 09:47 AM

Well, he failed math. Other than that, I think a number of people greatly overestimate how stupid Xykon ever was.

(And a number of other people overestimate how intelligent he secretly is.)

Well, failing math per se isn't exactly a sign or proof of low intelligence. With Xykon, simply not being that interested in numbers is a more likely reason for that. He hasn't ever really striked me as a particular dumb character. On the other hand, he doesn't seem extremely intelligent to me, either.

WindStruck

2012-09-03, 09:50 AM

Maybe Xykon just has discalculia!

Also, was anyone else thinking of the zelda CDI?

"I just wonder what Xykon's up to!"

Chloe Seven

2012-09-03, 09:59 AM

I don't think Xykon can be as stupid as he pretends to be, because if he was, it'd cheapen OotS's eventual victory over him. Roy or V outsmarting Xykon isn't going to be very impressive if he doesn't have some kind of hidden depths, and I doubt it'll come to a straight brute-force fight to end the story on.

hobo386

2012-09-03, 11:25 AM

I've always felt as if Xykon had an Int of 10-14. At least as smart as the average Joe, but just not patient enough to spend a lifetime devoted to academia (wizardemia).

And even someone of average intelligence is smart enough to carry out a plan, make a few correct philosophical insights, and otherwise accomplish a great deal. He might not be as good at it as say Roy or V, but he has lived long enough to know what works, and has enough creativity to find out new things that do (bouncy ball of insanity).

(Anyway, note that the particular numbers don't matter that much in my assessment of him. I just feel that he's meant to be smart enough to apply his power properly, but not a super crazy fast learner with a photographic memory.)

GameZone

2012-09-03, 11:57 AM

Indeed, he did steal the crown, and has downplayed it ever since.

However, nothing we know about the crown explains why it, in and of itself, registers so potently Evil that simply hanging it around your neck will induce 'false positives' that the character is evil.

In Comic 202 "Scanning..." (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) states that the evilness must of rubbed off of Xykon after he wore it for so long.

Forikroder

2012-09-03, 12:03 PM

WindStruck

2012-09-03, 12:39 PM

In Comic 202 "Scanning..." (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) states that the evilness must of rubbed off of Xykon after he wore it for so long.

But... but... I'm almost convinced that's a lame, half-assed explanation and not REALLY the reason why.

raymundo

2012-09-03, 12:46 PM

But... but... I'm almost convinced that's a lame, half-assed explanation and not REALLY the reason why.

But would Miko have stopped her righteous slashing if this was unlikely to be true? It's not impossible that the crown actually is a super-evil artifact of doom, but I always thought the way Xykon acquired it was just to show his evilness.

Mordokai

2012-09-03, 12:58 PM

But... but... I'm almost convinced that's a lame, half-assed explanation and not REALLY the reason why.

That is pretty much how it works in DnD, yes. Call it evil, taint or something else, but it is possible and has been known to happen, especially when something as powerful as an epic lich is involved.

To be fair, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here.

WindStruck

2012-09-03, 01:34 PM

That is pretty much how it works in DnD, yes. Call it evil, taint or something else, but it is possible and has been known to happen, especially when something as powerful as an epic lich is involved.

To be fair, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here.

No, I'm serious. Durkon's explanation that the evil just "rubbed off" ... while it could be true... I don't think he really has any knowledge about such things and it was merely a guess. At least it calmed Miko, but I still feel the explanation is just that: a guess, and one that did not take much thinking or magical analysis otherwise...

Mordokai

2012-09-03, 02:02 PM

Durkon, despite his lack of skill points in Knowledge(Religion) probably knows more about undead than anybody else present there. He also is a cleric of good faith, so he should know something about "rubbing evil off". And like said, it has been known to happen. Durkon could have merely read about it before.

It didn't look like he was guessing to me. He was pretty confident about the explanation offered.

Ninja Dragon

2012-09-03, 02:52 PM

Well, I've always thought Xykon is a very intelligent person. His main problem is that he isn't focused. He has some kind of ADD. He knows what he is supposed to do, but he prefers just blowing stuff up or watching his undelings do hilarious things, because he lacks the patience and the discipline to execute long-term plans necessary to acomplish any big evil.

This is why his alliance with Redcloak is so dangerous: RC is the polar opposite of Xykon in this sense, being able to focus on long-term plans for decades if necessary. Xykon recognizes this, follows RC's plans, and trusts his strategical ability, altough he is not stupid enough to trust RC to his fullest.

SaintRidley

2012-09-03, 03:06 PM

The 8 hours are devoted to making magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

I don't think he is demilich or other, more powerful monster. He is tough the way he is.

That and he has a whole body. You know, good visual indicator of the difference.

In a different story Xykon wanting to become a demilich would be an interesting direction for the plot to go in, but I don't think it's the right direction for this story.

Ted The Bug

2012-09-03, 03:28 PM

Also, was anyone else thinking of the zelda CDI?

"I just wonder what Xykon's up to!"

Mah Roy, this crown is what all true warriors strive for.

ti'esar

2012-09-03, 04:38 PM

We're definitely in for some kind of reveal about Xykon, but I don't see him "going demilich" or the crown having hidden powers as likely elements in it.

RunicLGB

2012-09-03, 04:44 PM

I found one of his quotes quite telling: "Don't confuse not knowing with not caring."

That line basically defines Xykon to me.

Xykon definitely has a big reveal coming up, but what exactly that is, is anyone's guess. The three years of absence must have something to do with it, and how he got Serini's Diary is probably the biggest mystery of all.

Serini's Gate is still intact, so he somehow got it from her without capturing the Gate. Perhaps he killed her, but couldn't get past the other defenses? He did say deciphering the diary took ages, so that means Serini didn't just tell him her secrets. I wonder if some evil halflings helped out:smalltongue:

His reaveal probably has something to do with that Astral Doom Palace thing of his.

As for Serini, she never had a gate, unless everyone here is meaning Kragoor's Gate when they say Serini's. Anyway his gate's way up north, presumably in the dwarven lands (he was a dwarf, and it seems to be where the story is traveling to given all the foreshadowing.)

The other thing, getting the book and his absence are all one thing. Xykon dissapeared for three years after learning from Lirian that there were other gates. He links this to Redcloak's tale of the adventurers who stopped the bearer of the crimson mantle the first time around, and starts hunting down her adventuring party. He learns about Kragoor (dead), Soon (dead), Girrard (epic level illusionist's would be hard to track down), Dorukan (Epic level Wizard is hard to track down) and Serini, a famous and epic level rogue. So he goes for the rogue.

Whether he killed her or not I'm not sure, but I always got the impression that Xykons tower from 192+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) was origionally a home of Serini's, which Xykon had just appropriated. I can't back that up,but it would explain the presence of the Diary (Xykon finding it else where and moving it ther notwithstanding).

We also know from Xykon and Redcloak's time in the tower that he was never able to decipher it enough to find Girrard, Kragoor, and Soon's gates. He probably was only able to figure out where Dorukan's dungeon was, and at that point he returned to Redcloak and the team for the takeover.

Of course during all that time he would undoubtedly be solidifying his power, knowing he would be going up against some epic level bad-asses.

Steven

2012-09-03, 05:02 PM

Maybe he goes somewhere safe, puts on int boosting items and plans for a bit then comes back and just has to remember his plans even if he can't understand WHY he made them.

Man D&D makes no sense some times...

Kish

2012-09-03, 07:32 PM

But... but... I'm almost convinced that's a lame, half-assed explanation and not REALLY the reason why.
Lame and half-assed is in the eye of the beholder. Ten out of eleven of my eyes state that it's more "lame and half-assed" if Xykon's crown has to be magical, rather than his having killed Fyron in a demonstration of how complete his lack of regard for life is.

coineineagh

2012-09-03, 09:40 PM

Demilich isn't such an obscure reference, really. Many if not most D&D computergame players will know of Kangaxx. 'That game' is acknowledged as one of the best productions so far, and anyone who played the game, will remember him/it.

Kangaxx was also the first time I ever heard of the Lich creature type, because I don't play tabletop. The comic is read by both gamers and traditional D&Ders, and for gamers, the Demi-Lich is about as mainstream as regular Lich.

Gaxkang was a cool reference to Kangaxx in another game:smallbiggrin:

WindStruck

2012-09-03, 09:59 PM

Mah Roy, this crown is what all true demi-liches strive for.

fixed. :smallwink:

Demilich isn't such an obscure reference, really. Many if not most D&D computergame players will know of Kangaxx. 'That game' is acknowledged as one of the best productions so far, and anyone who played the game, will remember him/it.

Kangaxx was also the first time I ever heard of the Lich creature type, because I don't play tabletop. The comic is read by both gamers and traditional D&Ders, and for gamers, the Demi-Lich is about as mainstream as regular Lich.

Gaxkang was a cool reference to Kangaxx in another game:smallbiggrin:

There was a D&D Arcade came called Dungeons and Dragons: Tower of Doom. The final boss was some big bad demi-lich. His most trusted lacky was... a male drow?

Incom

2012-09-03, 10:48 PM

As someone with little DnD experience:

Would I know what a demi-lich was without DnD/OOTS? Nope.

Would I know what a lich was without DnD/OOTS? In general, yes.

If Xykon were turned into a demi-lich, would I get the idea (multiple phylacteries, way more powerful in general, now lacks anything below the neck)? Yep.

SaintRidley

2012-09-03, 10:59 PM

Fitzclowningham

2012-09-03, 11:15 PM

Lame and half-assed is in the eye of the beholder. Ten out of eleven of my eyes state that it's more "lame and half-assed" if Xykon's crown has to be magical, rather than his having killed Fyron in a demonstration of how complete his lack of regard for life is.

I only wonder why it was on display in the first place. Clearly, it was a notable item, and in D&D, notable often = magic. Maybe it only gives a simple charisma boost, but I think the crown does something.

Querzis

2012-09-03, 11:29 PM

Oh for crying out loud really? How can you read SoD and think Xykon is dumb? Xykon is lazy and bored, thats all. He doesnt care about anything that doesnt entertain him and he actually like a frigging challenge so why would he actually try to stop people from planning against him? And, as somebody said before me, Xykon direct and brutal approach means the only way to try and stop him is to stand directly in his path which is exactly what he wants so why would he plan any battle beforehand?

The gates are one of the few things he cares about so theres absolutely nothing weird at all about him being competent at tracking them.

RunicLGB

2012-09-04, 12:05 AM

I only wonder why it was on display in the first place. Clearly, it was a notable item, and in D&D, notable often = magic. Maybe it only gives a simple charisma boost, but I think the crown does something.

Being on display actually makes it less likely to be magic, as if it were something magically useful i would have been in Fyron's possession, or if not, most likely under better lock and key or else sold off.

The fact that it was just sort of on display for the common folk makes me think it might have been a trophy from some of Fyron's various exploits.

And it does do something, it makes Xykon look more badass. That in itself is down right magical. +3 crown of badass is what you got here.

ti'esar

2012-09-04, 12:14 AM

Or behind the wrist, depending on his preference.

I think we can say with reasonable accuracy that Xykon would not want to become a disembodied hand.

erewhon

2012-09-04, 01:43 AM

The 8 hours are devoted to making magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

Just so! :) I misremembered, thanks for the clarification.

That said....

What items is he constructing? Soul Gems, perhaps? :)

I don't think he is demilich or other, more powerful monster. He is tough the way he is.

I don't think he's a demilich yet, either. However, I do think there's a good chance he's a Paragon Lich already.

For example, in the battle against Soon's ghost horde: We see Xykon get harmed at the beginning of the battle, and warned that there is no more healing after that.

We then see Xykon absorb at a minimum 3 Smite Evil's from an epic level paladin, and more likely four, starting at comic 459:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

Smite Evil does 1 hp per level of the paladin, unless you have Great Smiting. If you have the Epic feat, then you do +1 points per level for each time you have the feat.

If Soon is level 25 and has level-appropriate gear, than at a bare minimum he is looking at 22 str for +9 damage, has a +5 weapon, and is rolling a d8 for damage.

4.5+5+9 = 18.5 damage per swing, base. Add in 25 points per Smite, minimum, that's 43.5 damage, minimum, times three. That's 130 points of damage that Xykon takes from just the Smites, on top of all the other damage that has been inflicted upon him in the Throne Room battle. In addition to that, Soon hits him 'normally' at least once on-page, for another 18 damage. That's 148 hit points, bare minimum. Plus, a high level Paladin should be getting multiple 'normal' attacks per round. Namely, four. If Soon lands only one extra shot per round for three rounds, that's an additional 55 hitpoints, taking Xykon's damage up to 203.

If Soon has Great Smite, and hits Xykon 4 times("packs a wallop") then the damage dealt becomes 4.5+5+9+50 = 68.5x4 +55 = 329. And this assumes Soon didn't take Great Smite more than once, and that Xykon took very little other damage in the battle even though he's complaining about it.

Now, Xykon, as a lich, has d12's for hitpoints. If Xykon is 24th level for this battle, that's 24x6.5=156 hitpoints on average.

But what about Xykon's DR? Well, DR does not work against energy damage, and Redcloak makes much of the fact that the Guardians of the Gate are 'positive energy creatures' of some sort. It's very likely Xykon's DR is not working for this fight.

So, it's not credible that Xykon might be a plain vanilla lich(168hp)....but it's very possible that he's a Paragon lich(576hp).

The World May Never Know. :D

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-09-04, 02:13 AM

What items is he constructing? Soul Gems, perhaps? :)

Yes, actually. Among other things. He uses a soul gem to capture Dorukan and Lirian's souls after he beats/zombifies them.

Another trick of his is an item that renders him immune to Area of Effect spells, seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

But what about Xykon's DR? Well, DR does not work against energy damage, and Redcloak makes much of the fact that the Guardians of the Gate are 'positive energy creatures' of some sort. It's very likely Xykon's DR is not working for this fight.

So, it's not credible that Xykon might be a plain vanilla lich(168hp)....but it's very possible that he's a Paragon lich(576hp).

The World May Never Know. :D

Or...he has more magic items that he spends his time crafting. Maybe he has a ring of DR against positive energy. That certainly explains how in SOD when Right-eye dies, Xykon laughs off his assassination attempt with a positive energy dagger, saying how he was immune to it due to a magic ring (SOD 108).

It's entirely possible he has a huge pool of temporary Hp as well from some sort of magic item. Or he took a Flaw that gave him ADD (can't use full Int score) in return for a Con boost or extra hit points. When he was lichified it was mentioned that his intelligence would be increased as well, so there we go.

As to what his plan is? No idea. It'll involve Serini, something magnificent, and the MitD eating Redcloak as per Xykon's Suggestion spell in SOD.

Friv

2012-09-04, 09:46 AM

Lame and half-assed is in the eye of the beholder. Ten out of eleven of my eyes state that it's more "lame and half-assed" if Xykon's crown has to be magical, rather than his having killed Fyron in a demonstration of how complete his lack of regard for life is.
Devil's Advocate for a moment - just because the crown wasn't magical when Xykon stole it doesn't mean that it's not magical now. He has, after all, been designing a lot of magical items, and could easily have turned the crown into a +Whatever Charisma hat.

I personally think it's just a crown, but I figured it was worth mentioning the possibility. The Order never got around to checking it for magic, after all, or they would have noticed it was faintly evil.

Bulldog Psion

2012-09-04, 12:00 PM

It is a bit odd that a mundane crown would be evil.

I kind of hope it is really nothing more than a mundane crown, though. It gives the "Badass. Totally badass." scene a lot more oomph that way.

Fish

2012-09-04, 06:11 PM

This is not complicated. The crown was a reason for Miko to attack Roy in strip #200.

I know I have read D&D modules that had environments that radiated evil because of their long association with evil beings and acts (eg, a sacrificial altar) even though the item itself was not magic. It's also a common element of fiction generally (the evil chill of the Micmac Burial Ground in Stephen King's "Pet Sematery," the dark-Force tree in "The Empire Strikes Back"). It doesn't have to be more than that.

As for the demi-lich idea, I doubt it. We have no idea how powerful Xykon is now; I don't see a purpose in having him secretly be more powerful than we don't know him to be. That's secrets on top of secrets.

Steven

2012-09-04, 07:16 PM

Couple of things: from what I recall there isn't really a good way under the rules to have the item retain an evil aura for that long even after Xykon has it that long. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm unless I'm miss reading things says it would have worn off before the Miko encounter. Not that that means much since this is OotS not vanilla DnD.

Also the general public would probably link having multiple phylacteries with Harry Potter. So the concept of a Demi-lich might not be so far out there.

Not that I think Xykon is a demi-lich. Just pointing out that the most recent use in mass pop culture of phylacteries is in the Harry Potter books and the big bad did have more than one.