What makes Incarnum good?

[Zaydos]

I love the concept. You have your abilities chosen each day and then can rearrange how your resources are set up in them allowing you to adapt to the situation tactically, but I can't figure out how to build an incarnate or totemist which plays with the tier 3s. Every totemist build I've seen is worse in melee than a ToB character that has the same level of effort put into figuring out how to make them work, and factotum just seems to outclass Incarnate.

It might just be I don't have an elaborate and deep understanding of MoI (that said I didn't have one of ToB either) and don't know what soul melds are good. I've even made satisfactory use of it on enemies, mostly at low levels and with the mantle of flames soulmeld through the shape soulmeld feat.

So really what I'm asking is what makes you like Incarnum in practice as opposed to just as an idea? Because I love the idea, but I've always been underwhelmed by it in practice. Also what do you think are the best soulmelds, because that might be useful information too.

[silverwolfer]

am not sure what makes it good, but I know many a DM does not like it, as it is an entire new system to learn and such, and some feel it is easy to abuse for those one/two level dips.

I think more folks have acceptance for things like binders, becuase, pretty easy system to learn, even if it looks complex .

[Flickerdart]

Incarnate is very tricky to get to work properly, but they're deadly once you get them to do that. Totemists scale unevenly, but built by someone who's familiar with the system, they can rain death down on their foes the likes of which ToB classes can't match, simply because of how many attacks they can get.

[Ernir]

Every totemist build I've seen is worse in melee than a ToB character that has the same level of effort put into figuring out how to make them work
I think this is the core of the problem you're seeing. It is very easy to make a proficient ToB character, while Incarnum has to be just about the least newb-friendly subsystem within 3.5 (although Vancian casting does give it a run for its money. Heh).

[eggs]

Effective Incarnates really ride on Necrocarnum Zombies, UMD or multiclassing. The class has a lot of passive/utility benefits, but it does have a notable lack of things to do. EDIT: In combat, that is.

EDIT: And they work very nicely in multiclasses: Soulcasters, Soul Manifesters and Sapphire Hierarchs do very nice things with the incarnate base.

Totemists need more work than ToB, but extra work often does more for Totemists than it does for ToB. Plus Incarnum-users have the whole utility/do-something-other-than-whack-at-things-with-a-sword bit going for them.

[navar100]

The reason you have difficulty is you don't get enough Essentia. I can't say how much more all the Incarnum classes need, but they need more than they have now.

House rule experiment. Start with double the Essentia. If that's too much for you and your group's taste as the class plays you can lower it from there.

[Talionis]

The biggest problem with MoIncarnum is that each soul meld does multiple different things, so there is no "spell index" like you get with feats and spells where they break down what each spell does in one sentence.

So the system is very hard to digest. Soul melds doing different things if bound to chakras makes it very hard to plan characters and optimize them.

Totemists can be ridiculously strong since they can add a ton of natural attacks that multiply into a mess of attacks a turn add more damage like Rend or Sneak Attack, though other people can come up with better examples and the damage can get to horrific levels. I personally love Arterial Strike with multiple attacks, but it more for the visual.

Otherwise Soulmelds make excellent dips to get small bonuses to something else you are trying to optimize.

I like the concept, but it wasn't supported with more books and was never outlined properly for it to be a good reference.

[killianh]

well one big bonus is that chakra binds actually save you gold by filling item slots allowing you to save gold for items outside of your normal range of WBL.

Read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=hd6efc9frvtfjv0vssdh5c6vl5&topic=551) and this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=hd6efc9frvtfjv0vssdh5c6vl5&topic=2943) to give you an idea on how to optimize them and the kinds of combos and tricks you can pull off.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The biggest problem with MoIncarnum is that each soul meld does multiple different things, so there is no "spell index" like you get with feats and spells where they break down what each spell does in one sentence.One spell index, sorted by slot, available in my sig.


So the system is very hard to digest. Soul melds doing different things if bound to chakras makes it very hard to plan characters and optimize them.Newbie's guide to meldshaping also found in sig.


I like the concept, but it wasn't supported with more books and was never outlined properly for it to be a good reference.

Now that, I will agree with.

Totemists can dish out a LOT more pain than ToB can, simply because of the boatloads of natural attack and damage stacking one can do with them. However, one has to really know how to work the system to get that kind of performance out of them.

[Talionis]

One spell index, sorted by slot, available in my sig.

Newbie's guide to meldshaping also found in sig.



Now that, I will agree with.

Totemists can dish out a LOT more pain than ToB can, simply because of the boatloads of natural attack and damage stacking one can do with them. However, one has to really know how to work the system to get that kind of performance out of them.

Great Job with the breakdown... Would it have killed WotC to do something like that I. The book...

[ThiagoMartell]

There was a saying/joke back in 339: "Incarnum fixes everything".
It's not true, but incarnum is very dippable and can be a good power boost in otherwise weak concepts.

[Big Fau]

Meldshapers are easily the second-hardest type of class to work with (the first being the Artificer). In essence (pun not intended), Incarnum is a balanced form of Difficult but Awesome (too much stuff to do to link to TvTropes), as the entire system requires several readings and a good eye for combinations to make it work.

Incarnates make decent tanks, archers (as shown in the Incarnate Handbook over at BG/MMB), mini-Artificers (though lack of crafting is a problem), and are incredible Skill Monkeys, but it takes so much effort to make any of those options work that the class feels weaker than it is. Even worse, tank and archer Incarnates have something of a one-trick pony problem (although they can alleviate that issue by changing to a different set of Soulmelds).

Totemists are more focused on combat, although they have an arsenal to be reckoned with; rivaling a Druid's Wild Shape is a herculean task in and of itself but they can do so from level 2 on up (although the Druid wins in the long run). They share the Incarnate's one-trick pony issue, albeit worse than the Incarnate does (specifically, they lack the UMD affinity off the bat).

One thing I've heard recommended is keeping a list of two or three different configurations of Soulmelds/Chakra Binds, so you don't have to sift through the entire book every time you want to change your tricks around. This is an excellent way to find out how flexible the Meldshapers can be, although it suffers from Incarnum's lack of support (would it really have killed WotC to do a Complete Meldshaper?).


As Sinfire Titan said in his handbooks, the low Essentia pool is only a real issue around the lower levels (although it is an issue). Proper resource management is vital to Incarnum, as it is with everything in D&D.

[Tvtyrant]

The biggest advantage Incarnum has IME is it synergizes with everything else. Barbarians get natural weapons and skills if they go Totem Rager, Mage's Spectacles are the easiest way to boost UMD in the game (for Warlocks and Artificers especially important), you can use either of them for movement.