How to enter illithid savant,slaad breeder, and yuan ti cultist with 1 feat and race.

[123456789blaaa]

On the late brilliant gameologist boards a poster named Lo77o came up with a very interesting trick. Here is his exact quote:

"I think i might have stumbled upon a way to play an illithid savant without actually being an illithid, or spending massive amounts of gold on rituals or POA that is vulnerable to dispels.

I will try and do this in stages, and if i am wrong or makes a mistake in one of the steps, hopefully someone else can help find another solution.

Step 1: Play as a changeling.

The changeling has the "Minor Change Shape" ability. This uses the restriction from the disguise self spell, but the changes are physical and real. This wont give me any abilities from the race i turn into, other than i look like the race, and get +10 to disguise.

The only restrictions in disguise self is size and general shape. So you will be able to look like templated forms, so long as you stick with a size and general shape that is humanoid and medium.

Step 2: Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

You are now disguised as a medium humanoid.

Step 3: Pick the "Racial Emulation" feat from RoE, and you now count as the race your disguised as, so long as it is a humanoid race.

Is there any RAW flaws in this?"

You can now do what the thread title says you can do (Assuming this works) . I'm not very interested in illithid savant because optimizing it is not very fun but what about slaad brooder and yuan ti cultist (both are prestige classes from savage species by the way)?.

Slaad brooder: This Prc is sort of lackluster until the last levels but I don't care because it allows you to implant chestburters into your foes:smalleek::smallamused:.. Totemist would be good because more natural attacks would mean more chances to implant your eggs into people. Warshaper would also be good for the extra natural attack and sweet benefits.

Yuan ti cultist: No idea

[Vizzerdrix]

I don't think that works, but if it did couldn't it be used to enter Beholder Mage as well?

[Igneel]

I'm also quite skeptical on that interpretation.


Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.



Disguise Self
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Trickery 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

To me the two parts I emphasized seems to hint that yeah, you can change yourself to look like another race, but to what extent? Does the 'cannot change your body type' include the tentacles/bulbous head for a mindflayer, or the bumps/claws/etc for the slaad, or snake-like qualities for the yuan-ti? Or do they fall under the 'add or obscure a minor feature'? Is the Disguise Self spell only meant to allow you to disguise yourself as a humanoid creature or at least a templated one with something like half-illithid (Fiend Folio I think)?

Then what about the Racial Emulation feat?


RACIAL EMULATION [RACIAL]
You can emulate a humanoid more closely with your minor change shape ability.
Prerequisite: Changeling.
Benefit: When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid’s subtypes.
Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).
You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player’s Handbook).
You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.

Slaad's are Outsiders, plain and simple. Mindflayers are Aberrations. Yuan-Ti are at least Monsterous Humanoids. So does this feat mean that anything not of the Humanoid type you can't use the feat for, or that anything vaguely similar to a humanoid shape like a Mindflayer or at least the Yuan-Ti you can? Then what about when you use the Racial Emulation to replicate another race? Do you lose the prerequiste race for the PrC you got in through the feat and thus the class abilities?
Personally I would just assume that this combo is a no go, but that's just me.

[olentu]

Well this should be easy to answer, just post up the RAW definition of race and then we will know.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well this should be easy to answer, just post up the RAW definition of race and then we will know.

Shouldn't that be sarcasm colored? :smallamused:

[olentu]

Shouldn't that be sarcasm colored? :smallamused:

Nah, one way or another that is the crux of the argument and even if it can not be presented it still resolves the argument, so easy. Plus if I colored my text for that reason I would have to slap on another tone for my use of colored text in that way ad infinitum and it would come out black in the end.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In that case, we're all doomed. There is no RAW definition for race, as far as I know. It'd be really helpful if there was.

[olentu]

In that case, we're all doomed. There is no RAW definition for race, as far as I know. It'd be really helpful if there was.

Oh it would be very helpful, which is why I asked. But even if there is no definition to be found and the English language is not precise enough to give a definite yes or no the question can still be answered. The answer is based on the fact that there is no answer that can be made using only the rules and thus it is the choice of the DM. And so the answer to if there are any RAW flaws is that yes there are so long as you consider relying completely on favorable DM fiat to work a flaw.

[ThiagoMartell]

There is no need for any definition of race in this case. Racial Emulation only works with humanoids.

[olentu]

There is no need for any definition of race in this case. Racial Emulation only works with humanoids.

Hmm, perhaps I am misremembering the incarnate construct template but I believe it results in humanoids for I think medium size or smaller constructs.

[HunterOfJello]

Hmm, perhaps I am misremembering the incarnate construct template but I believe it results in humanoids for I think medium size or smaller constructs.

Yup. The Incarnate Construct template does turn Medium-size or smaller into Humanoids. It turns Large size or larger into Giants.

I tried experimenting with the Racial Emulation feat way back when. It's a very strange feat that isn't well explained or defined in any way shape or form. I'm not sure what the creator intended it to be for or what it could actually be used for as read.

[ThiagoMartell]

Hmm, perhaps I am misremembering the incarnate construct template but I believe it results in humanoids for I think medium size or smaller constructs.

Oh, I can see it now.
Polymorph effects are specifically banned from using templated creatures and the like, but disguise self has no similar clause.
Yeah, it looks like it works by RAW.
It's cheesy as hell since it goes so clearly against all intended rules, but can't question the legality of it.

[IdleMuse]

Dustform can also be used, instead of Effigy. I think it opens up more types?

[123456789blaaa]

I don't think that works, but if it did couldn't it be used to enter Beholder Mage as well?

Nope because “Incarnate construct” is an acquired template that can only be applied to any construct creature with a generally humanoid form—two arms, two legs, one head


I'm also quite skeptical on that interpretation.





To me the two parts I emphasized seems to hint that yeah, you can change yourself to look like another race, but to what extent? Does the 'cannot change your body type' include the tentacles/bulbous head for a mindflayer, or the bumps/claws/etc for the slaad, or snake-like qualities for the yuan-ti? Or do they fall under the 'add or obscure a minor feature'? Is the Disguise Self spell only meant to allow you to disguise yourself as a humanoid creature or at least a templated one with something like half-illithid (Fiend Folio I think)?

Then what about the Racial Emulation feat?



Slaad's are Outsiders, plain and simple. Mindflayers are Aberrations. Yuan-Ti are at least Monsterous Humanoids. So does this feat mean that anything not of the Humanoid type you can't use the feat for, or that anything vaguely similar to a humanoid shape like a Mindflayer or at least the Yuan-Ti you can? Then what about when you use the Racial Emulation to replicate another race? Do you lose the prerequiste race for the PrC you got in through the feat and thus the class abilities?
Personally I would just assume that this combo is a no go, but that's just me.

When they say body type I assume they mean aberration ,animal ,Construct ,Dragon ,Elemental ,Fey ,Giant ,Humanoid type. However you aren't changing your body type because incarnate construct makes you a humanoid (just like a changeling). I assume the sentence " You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you." means that as long as you are emulating a humanoid you can look like basically anything that has two arms, two legs, and one head.

As for the racial emulation feat I already answered your first question in the previous paragraph. Losing prestige class benefits is not answered outside of complete warrior and some people say that it only applies to the prestige classes in complete warrior. Assuming they are wrong then you would lose your abilites if you emulated another race.


Yup. The Incarnate Construct template does turn Medium-size or smaller into Humanoids. It turns Large size or larger into Giants.

I tried experimenting with the Racial Emulation feat way back when. It's a very strange feat that isn't well explained or defined in any way shape or form. I'm not sure what the creator intended it to be for or what it could actually be used for as read.

I assume RAI it was to be used to enter prestige classes like shadowcraft mage which have humanoid race specific requirements.


Oh, I can see it now.
Polymorph effects are specifically banned from using templated creatures and the like, but disguise self has no similar clause.
Yeah, it looks like it works by RAW.
It's cheesy as hell since it goes so clearly against all intended rules, but can't question the legality of it.

What I like about this trick is that even though it is cheesy, it isn't overpowered. Slaad brooder and yuan ti cultist are both very cool prestige classes but they aren't very powerfull (slaad brooder is actually kind of weak). It is just a RAW legal way to get to play really cool prestige classes without eating a ton of LA.

[elonin]

Don't forget that humanoid is a type. Aberration is a different type that mind flayers belong to.

[Urpriest]

I'm rather dubious about the idea that Incarnate preserves race, but since we lack a definition of race there seem to be no rules against it.

[123456789blaaa]

Don't forget that humanoid is a type. Aberration is a different type that mind flayers belong to.

I actually know that. It's why I said:


When they say body type I assume they mean aberration ,animal ,Construct ,Dragon ,Elemental ,Fey ,Giant ,Humanoid type

A changeling emulating a effigy incarnate constuct [type other than humanoid] is legal because effigy changes the creatures type to construct and incarnate construct changes that to humanoid (which is the same type as changeling).

[olentu]

I'm rather dubious about the idea that Incarnate preserves race, but since we lack a definition of race there seem to be no rules against it.

Yes but simultaneously there are no rules for it. It is not quite as bad as fighters with laser eyes as it is not totally out of the blue, but since the rules are not definite either way it all comes down to the "trick" requiring a favorable DM ruling. And that requirement can be a rather big problem.