The ECL of a zombie

[Bobmufin52]

So I’m a little confused by the rules for the ECL for zombies, specifically the ECL of a Hound Archon zombie. Any help explaining it would be greatly appreciated!

[KillianHawkeye]

Zombies are not playable creatures. They have no ECL, they have CR.

EDIT: A hound archon zombie would have 12 HD and thus be CR 4.

[Bobmufin52]

I get that zombies aren't playable as PCs, but one of my characters is able to make semi intelligent zombies and skeletons and we’re tossing around the idea of a zombie cohort for him, so I want to know its ECL (or estimate thereof) for it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, if the template you're using to create semi-intelligent zombies doesn't list the cohort ECL, you're going to have to Rule 0 it.

How different is this template from the standard Zombie template? Is it pretty much the same except for the Intelligence, or are there other differences? Without knowing the details, it'll be hard for anybody else to help you estimate an ECL.

[Bobmufin52]

It's exactly like a regular zombie, except is the deathless type instead of undead and has an int of 10.

[Madara]

I suggest basing it on the Necropolitan template, which is already LA 0. It costs some XP, but its technically LA 0. In addition, it wouldn't take much effort to simply change it to a deathless. In addition, the Undead Type isn't as nice as the Outsider Type(Unless its Outsider Native), so I would just change his type to undead, his HD to d12s, give him all the undead immunities and such, and use the Hound Archon's ECL. At the level you need to start playing one, being undead wouldn't give much benefit.

[tyckspoon]

Being a zombie is mostly a negative thing- sure, you get Undead immunities, but at the cost of pretty much everything that made the original creature interesting. If the creature is just 'a zombie, but with an Int score' I would say their ECL should just be their HD- being a zombie certainly isn't worth any LA. It should have a negative LA, really, except that opens up some potential for abuse, is generally weird, and just does weird stuff to the system.

[Steward]

So you actually can turn an outsider into a zombie? That's interesting to know for future reference, at least!

[tyckspoon]

So you actually can turn an outsider into a zombie? That's interesting to know for future reference, at least!

You can zombify anything that leaves a corporeal corpse when you kill it. Some DMs like to have Outsiders melt away when they die/get banished back to their home plane instead of actually dying, but the default assumption is that they die and leave a body just like everything else.

[123456789blaaa]

Technically if you use savage species you can play a zombie with no modifications necessary. Check the sidebar at the bottom of page 75. Since specific trumps general,the general rule that you can't play as a creature with LA- is overturned.

[The_Snark]

Technically if you use savage species you can play a zombie with no modifications necessary. Check the sidebar at the bottom of page 75. Since specific trumps general,the general rule that you can't play as a creature with LA- is overturned.

No. That sidebar states that if your character is killed and raised as an undead creature (typically as the result of a monster with the Create Spawn ability, like a vampires or wraith), and the monster that killed you is destroyed, you can play them as a character of whatever ECL your new species has. It does not make any provision for playing monsters without a listed LA, such as wraiths and zombies.

Furthermore, it does not restore your Intelligence in any way. A zombie whose master has been destroyed is still non-sapient.

[123456789blaaa]

No. That sidebar states that if your character is killed and raised as an undead creature (typically as the result of a monster with the Create Spawn ability, like a vampires or wraith), and the monster that killed you is destroyed, you can play them as a character of whatever ECL your new species has. It does not make any provision for playing monsters without a listed LA, such as wraiths and zombies.

Furthermore, it does not restore your Intelligence in any way. A zombie whose master has been destroyed is still non-sapient.

But there are some monsters that can create zombies with the create spawn ability (Example:bleakborn) and I didn't say that your intelligence would be restored, only that you could play as one.

[Dusk Eclipse]

AFAIK a minimum Intelligence score of 3 is needed in order to be playable.

[Mnemnosyne]

You can zombify anything that leaves a corporeal corpse when you kill it. Some DMs like to have Outsiders melt away when they die/get banished back to their home plane instead of actually dying, but the default assumption is that they die and leave a body just like everything else.
I was actually looking for a reference on this recently. Do you know where it says that's the default assumption? I've been trying to find anything somewhat definitive either way, and come up empty in my searches thus far.

[123456789blaaa]

AFAIK a minimum Intelligence score of 3 is needed in order to be playable.

Hmmm... does the specific trumps general rule overrule this too? If not than mabe a caster could cast awaken undead on you?