Mirror image!

[SoliaTera]

How do you calculate the miss chance for mirror image

[Dusk Eclipse]

I generally roll 1dX (where x is the number of mirror images+1) if the roll is 1 or the maximum (player's choice) they hit the character on any other one they hit an image.

[Kol Korran]

I generally roll 1dX (where x is the number of mirror images+1) if the roll is 1 or the maximum (player's choice) they hit the character on any other one they hit an image.
Our group does exactly the same thing.

[LanSlyde]

Mirror Image doesn't really give a miss chance. You pick one and hope the thing your hitting is the right one. Thats if your a PC up against Mirror Image, if your the DM I would go with what has already mentioned above.

EDIT: That said, I would give the PC the choice. Pick a number, if it comes up on the dice, they get smacked.

[Gwendol]

Or, you know, target the square and close your eyes. Suddenly the miss chance is 50% irrespective of number of mirror images.

[Killer Angel]

Or, you know, target the square and close your eyes. Suddenly the miss chance is 50% irrespective of number of mirror images.

Given that the figments separate from the caster and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment, i doubt you can find em all sharing a single square with the caster.

[Boci]

Or, you know, target the square and close your eyes. Suddenly the miss chance is 50% irrespective of number of mirror images.

You are also blinding yourself, losing dex to AC and taking a penalties. Not to much of a problem, until the enemy starts to use readied actions creatively.

[Lonely Tylenol]

How do you calculate the miss chance for mirror image

You mean you don't have a d9, d7, d5, or d3 available at all times?

[Drelua]

You mean you don't have a d9, d7, d5, or d3 available at all times?

I always do. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm)

[Andreaz]

I always do. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm)And without that, you can improvise.
D3 is a D6 divided by two (round up)
D5 is a D6 (reroll on 6)
D7 is a D8 (reroll on 8)
d9 is a d10 (reroll on 10)
Alternatively, figure the % chance and use a D100 (which can be done as 2 d10, one being the tens and the other being the ones)
(Math: Chance is 1/(number of images + 1). Times 100 for percentage)

[SiuiS]

Mirror Image doesn't really give a miss chance. You pick one and hope the thing your hitting is the right one. Thats if your a PC up against Mirror Image, if your the DM I would go with what has already mentioned above.

EDIT: That said, I would give the PC the choice. Pick a number, if it comes up on the dice, they get smacked.

It's been a whole since I bothered, because it was unclear, but;
Does mirror image separate images? Does the player just plop down a field of mages and pil which one is him at any point in time?

The phrasing led me to believe it was supposed to be a miss chance, and that targeting specific images wasn't possible. But that doesn't make any logical sense...

[Andreaz]

The phrasing led me to believe it was supposed to be a miss chance, and that targeting specific images wasn't possible. But that doesn't make any logical sense...It makes sense just fine. It's just not a miss chance as the general term used for things like Concealment. There are a bunch of new yous in the same region, and you can't distinguish them without an illusion piercer, so your attack will hit any of them. Your chance of hitting the real one is thus diminished even though his miss chance may well be 0%

[KillianHawkeye]

The phrasing led me to believe it was supposed to be a miss chance, and that targeting specific images wasn't possible. But that doesn't make any logical sense...

That's because you DO target the images.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And without that, you can improvise.
D3 is a D6 divided by two (round up)
D5 is a D6 (reroll on 6)
D7 is a D8 (reroll on 8)
d9 is a d10 (reroll on 10)
Alternatively, figure the % chance and use a D100 (which can be done as 2 d10, one being the tens and the other being the ones)
(Math: Chance is 1/(number of images + 1). Times 100 for percentage)

Not sure if it is mathematically the same; but could you roll a die minus 1 for non-even numbers? ( IE 1d6-1 if there are 4 images and you).

[Andreaz]

Not sure if it is mathematically the same; but could you roll a die minus 1 for non-even numbers? ( IE 1d6-1 if there are 4 images and you).Same thing, as 1s will net 0s, which don't exist.

[ahenobarbi]

I generally roll 1dX (where x is the number of mirror images+1) if the roll is 1 or the maximum (player's choice) they hit the character on any other one they hit an image.

My group does that. There is another problem - if the real one gets hit can it be targeted specifically before it's round (because you know which one is real and it had no actions to swap places with image) or not??

[Andreaz]

My group does that. There is another problem - if the real one gets hit can it be targeted specifically before it's round (because you know which one is real and it had no actions to swap places with image) or not??As MI makes no exceptions to that kind of thing, I say that no, you can't ignore the spell after a hit that connects.

[Gwendol]

Given that the figments separate from the caster and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment, i doubt you can find em all sharing a single square with the caster.

Actually, that is exactly how it works (from the 3.5 FAQ):

Is there a way to decide which squares the figments
from a mirror image spell occupy? Or do the images
distribute themselves randomly? If it’s the latter, how does
the DM decide where they go?
Although the spell description says the images from a
mirror image spell always stay within 5 feet of either the user
or another image, it’s easiest to assume that all the images
occupy the same space the spell user occupies. Any attack that
can reach the user’s space can affect an image.


You are also blinding yourself, losing dex to AC and taking a penalties. Not to much of a problem, until the enemy starts to use readied actions creatively.

Closing ones eyes is one way of dealing with the spell. Picking the right strategy depends on the situation. However, if it's a one-on-one fight closing ones eyes just before launching the attack is a solid tactics. It's not like you'll continue to run around blinded. I'd definitely do it if I'm using archery to take out the images/caster.
Mirror Image is a spell that leaves a very many questions open on how exactly it is supposed to work, and it has been addressed on a number of occasions also on this board. I'll just leave the link to a previous thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187521

[Gwendol]

My group does that. There is another problem - if the real one gets hit can it be targeted specifically before it's round (because you know which one is real and it had no actions to swap places with image) or not??

Yes, absolutely. If you hit the real one, just keep it up until the bugger has a chance to shift around again.

[Boci]

Closing ones eyes is one way of dealing with the spell.

Until the mage readies an action to take a 5ft step and cast a spell. Then you'll have to open your eyes, assuming you heard them move, otherwise you automiss.

[Andreaz]

Until the mage readies an action to take a 5ft step and cast a spell. Then you'll have to open your eyes, assuming you heard them move, otherwise you automiss.That's part of the cost of closing your eyes.
An easier way is to use great cleave (both PF and 3.5's), as they are individual attacks(meaning they pop mirror images) and keep going as each image fizzes (they are pretty easy to hit)

[Gwendol]

And waste a standard action? That's a soon to be dead mage, mirror images or not.

[Gwendol]

That's part of the cost of closing your eyes.
An easier way is to use great cleave (both PF and 3.5's), as they are individual attacks(meaning they pop mirror images) and keep going as each image fizzes (they are pretty easy to hit)

Yes, cleaving or rapid fire archery are two ways of quickly dealing with mirror image, as is a high level MM, each targeting a separate image.

[Boci]

And waste a standard action? That's a soon to be dead mage, mirror images or not.

They ready an action to cast a spell and take a 5ft step. They lose a move equivalent action, not a standard.

[Gwendol]

You lost me there:


Readying is a standard action.

Is the rule I was looking at.

[Boci]

You lost me there:



Is the rule I was looking at.

Which then gives a standard action with which to cast a spell. Again, they do not lose a standard action, they just "store" the action until during the warrior's turn and their initiative then resets to just before his.

[Gwendol]

Yes, but if the caster stands still (can't move in order to take the 5' step) and readies a spell, but doesn't cast it, there is a fair chance the archer guess what he's up to and fires the arrow(s) as usual, without closing his eyes. And then the action is wasted which means a net win for the archer.

[Boci]

Yes, but if the caster stands still (can't move in order to take the 5' step) and readies a spell, but doesn't cast it, there is a fair chance the archer guess what he's up to and fires the arrow(s) as usual, without closing his eyes. And then the action is wasted which means a net win for the archer.

1. Why wouldn't the mage cast the spell?
2. "The mage holds his action, waiting to see how events on the battlefield unfold" will not automatically alert and archer to what is going on
3. Even if it does, the mage still casts his spell. He has spent a move action to negate the tactics of closing their eyes.

[Killer Angel]

Actually, that is exactly how it works (from the 3.5 FAQ)

Ah, I was stuck with the PHB and totally forgot the FAQ about it. My bad.

[Gwendol]

1. Why wouldn't the mage cast the spell?
2. "The mage holds his action, waiting to see how events on the battlefield unfold" will not automatically alert and archer to what is going on
3. Even if it does, the mage still casts his spell. He has spent a move action to negate the tactics of closing their eyes.

1. Depends on how the conditions are specified, but sure, I see your point.

2. Not the first time maybe, no.

3. Spending a move action with Mirror Image up isn't advised. If the enemy has you pegged, you need to move to "reset".

[Boci]

1. Depends on how the conditions are specified, but sure, I see your point.

To the best of my knowledge, the only example of a trigger for a readied action is pretty vague. "I blast the first enemy I see" or something.


2. Not the first time maybe, no.

So its the warrior who wastes a full round/standard action, not the mage.


3. Spending a move action with Mirror Image up isn't advised. If the enemy has you pegged, you need to move to "reset".

So if the mage is actually hit he doesn't use this tactics, assuming of course the 5ft step doesn't count as moving.

[Gwendol]

The first time in their career, yes.

Look, this is a fine and viable tactic. It doesn't always work, and it has drawbacks, but sometimes having a 1 in 2 shot at hitting the target is worth the risk. Maybe the caster isn't aware of the attacker; who knows?

[SiuiS]

That's because you DO target the images.

See, what I read here is that you DON'T target the images. You aget the Mage and have a chance at hitting him instead of an image, but there aren't seven occupied squares with six images, one wizard, and an actual chance o pick the right one. That's what always got me because I for some reason thought it did.


My group does that. There is another problem - if the real one gets hit can it be targeted specifically before it's round (because you know which one is real and it had no actions to swap places with image) or not??

By this rubric, no, since they aren't just standing stock still the whole time, just like you can't hit a displaced bead by telling your friend "two feet to the left!", although that's up for debate. It's certainly a viable tactic in most literature.


Actually, that is exactly how it works (from the 3.5 FAQ):


Yeah, that's just silly since that isn't how the spell reads at all. Ah well.



Closing ones eyes is one way of dealing with the spell. Picking the right strategy depends on the situation. However, if it's a one-on-one fight closing ones eyes just before launching the attack is a solid tactics. It's not like you'll continue to run around blinded. I'd definitely do it if I'm using archery to take out the images/caster.
Mirror Image is a spell that leaves a very many questions open on how exactly it is supposed to work, and it has been addressed on a number of occasions also on this board. I'll just leave the link to a previous thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187521

Quick thing though; you can't target a person with your eyes closed. You target a square.

Why does closing your eyes no give you a 50% chance to hit an image? If there are seven mirror images an a wizard, that's a 1/8 chance, about 12%. I you lose your eyes, not only do you have a 1/8 chance of "pickin the right target", but now you've only got a 1/2 chance of even getting to that choice.
Makes logical sense. But "close your eyes" has been touted as the correct answer enough there has to be a rules minutia response. Right?

[Gwendol]

I may be wrong, but in the spell description it specifically says that the images have to be seen for the spell to have an effect. Since any attack directed at the mage also targets the images (they occupy the same square), you can aim your attack at that square and briefly close your eyes. This means the rules for total concealment applies, and hence the 50% miss chance.

[TuggyNE]

My group does that. There is another problem - if the real one gets hit can it be targeted specifically before it's round (because you know which one is real and it had no actions to swap places with image) or not??

No, because creatures are assumed to be continually shifting within their square during combat (the meaning of Dex modifier to AC) and the mirror images imitate this, so during a given six-second round several duplicates will appear to merge and separate again, trading places untraceably.

[ahenobarbi]

No, because creatures are assumed to be continually shifting within their square during combat (the meaning of Dex modifier to AC) and the mirror images imitate this, so during a given six-second round several duplicates will appear to merge and separate again, trading places untraceably.

My group agreed that you can't just target the actual creature after you hit it. But if that argument ever comes up again I'll use that explanation :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

See, what I read here is that you DON'T target the images. You aget the Mage and have a chance at hitting him instead of an image, but there aren't seven occupied squares with six images, one wizard, and an actual chance o pick the right one. That's what always got me because I for some reason thought it did.

Yes there are. Look.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier.

Okay, first sentence says attackers must choose between indistinguishable targets (the mage and his images). Therefore each image is a separate targetable entity.

The second sentence says to roll randomly to determine if the target is real or not. The target you already chose when you began your attack.

Although the FAQ says the images should all stay in the caster's square, that is not RAW. The spell description says they only have to be within 5 feet of another image.

[Dairuga]

Mind, the figments all stay -at least- within 5 feet of the caster, or another image. They do not have to, by any means, stay in the same square as the caster. I have always used Mirror image in the same way that Baldur's Gate did it, having the mirror images and yourself form a 3x3 grid around you, at max level, or have you stand in the middle with eight images around you, and the images keeps shifting around and weaving around said nine squares, leaving your enemy confused.

While yes, if all the images occupy one square with the spellcaster, then you could merely close your eyes, target the square; take all the associated penalties of being blind and hit the square for a 50% chance to hit (That is, if the wizard -is- visible, and is not off to the next square, hiding away as invisible, to station an example), making it a viable way to deal with the image.

The FAQ says that it is -easiest- to assume all the figments stay within the same square, and yes; that is the easiest way to keep track of the spell for those that have problems with it, and might be up for DM evaluation. But this does not mean this is a certainty, and that there are no other ways of using the spell. Had the FAQ been decisive, it would have stated that this was how the spell worked, but the answer was kept ambiguous to open for more interpreations, it seems. Certainly, keeping within the given rules of the spell; the figments could be spread out in circle, in a line, in a triangle; all as long as they keep within 5 feet of eachother.

In this case, closing your eyes would not help you more than attacking normally would, given that you do not know which square contains a figment, and which square contains a real one.

[Gwendol]

Sure, but that also leaves the spell open for other interpretations on how the figments interact with the surrounding. In Baldur's Gate the presence of allies close-by didn't exatcly hinder the efficiency of the spell, or a wall, furniture or whatever. The reason for the FAQ entry is simply that the alternative will leave the spell close to useless in a great many situations simply by allowing the opponents to deduct which of the images is real and which is a figment.