Character Themes

[shamgar001]

When my group played for about five months with the basic books, we never saw anything with themes. Then while the campaign was suspended over the summer, I pirated acquired pretty much all of the books and now I'm seeing them in several places.

Do most DM's allow themes as a standard part of every game?

[VeliciaL]

I think they're standard because they're in the character builder.

That said, my DM limited us away from Essentials and Dragon magazine stuff (because a pyromancer was able to bypass the fire resistance of his favorite monster :smallsigh:) so it's not unheard of.

[Zaq]

My group took a while to add them, but honestly, we love them. If you're looking at them from the perspective of "we didn't have them, and now we do," then yes, it's a straight and undeniable power increase, but they're rarely total show-stealers unless you build specifically around them (and if you build specifically around ANYTHING, you'll have the same situation). I find that they add a fair bit to a character, especially in a low-op or mid-op group where you can take them just because they're fun, not necessarily because they're THE BEST. In particular, they're awesome in Heroic, because 90% of them or so give you a new encounter power to play with, which means that you can go another round before combat devolves into an at-will fest.

[Ashdate]

I love themes; they're basically a Heroic Tier Paragon Path, except much more flavourful.

[Kurald Galain]

Do most DM's allow themes as a standard part of every game?

I think so. It's one of the few parts of the game that really everybody seems to like.

That said, most themes aren't really noticeable in gameplay, once you get to level 3 or so. That means they're not show-stealers, which is good.

[dariathalon]

Okay, to be the dissenting voice, I don't like themes. They just feel tacked on and unnecessary. I also think that the list of options is very oddly specific. Due to the way that themes were published (in books like Heroes of the Feywild, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, Dark Sun, etc), 3/4 or more of them are very specific to the type of campaign or character. They need some major refluffing and maybe even mechanical changes to make them more generally useful.

That said, if they are offered, I will take one (grudgingly) because they are a power boost. If I'm the only one without it, I feel behind the power curve. So it isn't even the type of thing that you can just ignore unless the entire group ignores them.

[iltharanos]

Okay, to be the dissenting voice, I don't like themes. They just feel tacked on and unnecessary. I also think that the list of options is very oddly specific. Due to the way that themes were published (in books like Heroes of the Feywild, Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, Dark Sun, etc), 3/4 or more of them are very specific to the type of campaign or character. They need some major refluffing and maybe even mechanical changes to make them more generally useful.

<snip>

The themes presented in the Dragon Magazine articles beginning with Issue 399 are generic, and were intended to address some of the issues you brought up about campaign-specific themes (ala Dark Sun). There's about 15 themes in that one issue that can apply to any campaign and don't require mechanical or fluff changes to do so. Lots of generically useful stuff from Noble to Alchemist to Wizard's Apprentice to Guttersnipe.

[dariathalon]

Yeah, I'm aware of those. I've actually got a character right now with the wizard's apprentice theme. Those themes are just so far outweighed by the campaign specific ones that I still feel as I posted earlier. Plus, they aren't needed. You can make an interesting character without them very easily. In fact, I've had times when trying to make a character fit the theme I wanted got in the way of creating an interesting character. (That's when I gave up on that character concept and went with something completely different.)

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Yeah, I'm aware of those. I've actually got a character right now with the wizard's apprentice theme. Those themes are just so far outweighed by the campaign specific ones that I still feel as I posted earlier. Plus, they aren't needed. You can make an interesting character without them very easily. In fact, I've had times when trying to make a character fit the theme I wanted got in the way of creating an interesting character. (That's when I gave up on that character concept and went with something completely different.)

Or you could start with your actual character concept and pick the theme that best fits rather than picking a simple pillar of character creation and deciding to build your character around that. What was the theme, out of curiosity? My Seeker-fallacy is showing. :P

[VeliciaL]

Yeah, I'm aware of those. I've actually got a character right now with the wizard's apprentice theme. Those themes are just so far outweighed by the campaign specific ones that I still feel as I posted earlier. Plus, they aren't needed. You can make an interesting character without them very easily. In fact, I've had times when trying to make a character fit the theme I wanted got in the way of creating an interesting character. (That's when I gave up on that character concept and went with something completely different.)

There are several generic themes that are quite good, depending on your role. Guardian is still considered one of (if not the) premier themes for Defenders, for example.

[Silvos4422]

Personally, I like themes, but their use really depends on the campaign for me. They are great for starting at a low level, since it does help elongate the time before an at-will-fest like Zaq said.

That said, I did not allow them in my latest campaign, which the characters started at paragon tier. The players had enough trouble going through their powers, that to have more would have delayed the game that much more.

[darkdragoon]

I would say it's about even between the "generic" themes and the setting specific ones, despite the latter having many more articles/books to draw from. Yes, Sohei and Ironwrought are popular, but so are Guardian and (Knight) Hospitaler.

[Nu]

As a DM I was initially hesitant about adding them into the game--they were introduced to me at a time where I was mid-campaign, and I feared power creep. In general I do believe they are power creep, but a mostly acceptable level of power creep that gives players more options in the heroic tier.

My favorite use of theme so far is pairing the Alchemist Theme up with my drow executioner, to expand on creating/using poisons. Goodnight tinctures are perfect for both flavor reasons and they're mechanically solid, and there are a few other poisons like toadstool venom that are tempting to take since I've got poison immunity-bypass feats anyways! A pair of alchemist gloves + the level 10 theme bonus makes up for their lack of accuracy as well.

[Adoendithas]

What does that theme get you? A bonus to apparent level when using the Alchemist feat, or lowered component costs? Or just some powers that act as poisons?

[Nu]

What does that theme get you? A bonus to apparent level when using the Alchemist feat, or lowered component costs? Or just some powers that act as poisons?

Well, you get the Alchemist feat for free. At levels 1, 5, and 10, you get a free recipe of appropriate level, and you don't have to be trained in the skills normally required for the recipe. At level 10 you also get a +2 bonus to attack rolls with alchemical attacks using your own created items, which stacks with the +2 item bonus from the alchemist gloves, helping keep lower-level formulas relevant for quite a while longer (+16 attack bonus on Goodnight Tincture looks a lot better than +12 at level 10).

Finally, with a short rest, you can create one "free" alchemical item of your level or lower (can only have one such item at a time).

[Adoendithas]

That's cool! I had a monster using the Mad Alchemist template recently, and the Alchemy theme seems like a good replacement when building a PC/CC.