An improved mage killer

[Anthrowhale]

The basic goal here is to use all legal tricks to optimize a fighter (= beat stick specialist), just to see how optimized it can be. An optimized fighter can play many roles and can survive and overcome many challenges. To achieve that kind of status, the fighter optimization needs to be fairly balanced.

The most extreme challenge for fighter optimization seems to be wizard combat. The simple answer is "punpun wins", but I'm looking forward a more refined answer. If you eliminate all the obviously broken tricks that does the wizard still win? Against a magicless fighter, the answer appears obvious, so we consider a fighter with offline magical support.

Here's the list of decisions so far.

Anything greater than twice the standard action economy is invalid.

Any choose-your-own-reality effects like miracle, wish, epic spellcasting, and alter reality used on a regular basis. Limited wish is legal, but see the expendables.

All expendables cost x10. This includes XP, expensive material components, etc... The logic here is that wizards that regularly rely on expensive spells must pay for it. Note that it is just barely possible to cast Wish in combat by preallocating 50K xp for that option.

Initiate of Mystra is nerfed. We interpret "able to cast in an AMF" as the ability to cast a spell inside an AMF, but not to have it avoid suppression within an AMF. This means IoM can cast a spell which takes effect outside an AMF, or cast a suppressed noninstantaneous spell, and have it take effect when the AMF moves away.

Anything breaking WBL. Dweomer Keeper pays full cost for expensive material components and/or xp.

Anything involving immunity to damage.

Any method of choosing an arbitrarily high stat.

Mindsight doesn't work inside an AMF or anywhere else that telepathy can't reach.

Twin spell doesn't combine with Greater Arcane Fusion and Arcane Fusion to octicast base spells.

Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive are neither mutually cumulative nor autocumulative. They provide a bonus to strength only up to the maximum caster level grant.

At most one campaign source can be used.

All feats must be sourced---you can't use DCFS to get arbitrarily many feats.


I spent time considering the comparison with other builds, each of which appears to be either disallowed, loses, or draws.

This helpful list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258580) has many of the more commonly seen builds.

Pun-Pun Disallowed (infinite loops) Wins: Deific Power
Omnisfiscer Disallowed (infinite loops) Wins: Deific Power
Terminator Disallowed (infinite loops) Wins: Time Travel
Wish Disallowed (infinite loops) Could lose
Word Disallowed (Too much XP lost, SRD stacking rules disallow) Wins: MDJ>100, Blasphemy
Chicken Infested Commoner Disallowed (infinite wealth) Loses
Jumplomancer Allowed Loses (dead well before 1 minute passes)
Arseplomancer Allowed? Loses. Touch attack fails, Spell fails. Also eww.
Tauric Hulking Hurler Disallowed (near infinite free templates) Wins: Brutal throw for 95% hit
Bubs Allowed Loses
Twice-Betrayer of Shar Disallowed (setting specific classes, alternate rules interpretation) W/L depending on rules interpretation.
Chuck E. Cheese Disallowed (Thought bottle XP abuse, near-infinite move) Loses (initiative & Melee touch attack)
Emerald Legion Allowed? Draw: neither can damage the other
d2 Crusader Disallowed (infinite damage loop) Loses (initiative, to-hit)
HIVE Disallowed (near infinite stats) Wins: Celerity, MDJ>100
The Shepard Allowed? Loses (initiative + AMF)
The Morphling Allowed? Loses (initiative + AMF)
The Beast Disallowed (infinited hp loop) Loses (initiative + AMF)
Bringer of Fated Justice Allowed? Loses (initiative + AMF)
Squibb, Goblin King Disallowed (near infinite loops) Wins: Swarm of Crystals
Theyla Esariel Allowed? Loses (initiative + AMF)
Mr Roboto Disallowed (near infinite template stacking, setting specific class) Loses (Survives a round, then counterattacks)
Silly Literalist Allowed? Loses (initiative, one shot)
Cheater of Mystra Disallowed (setting specific classes, IoM rules interpretation) Loses (initiative, one shot)
The Lightning Thief Disallowed (near infinite move) Loses (initiative, one shot)
The Basketweaver Allowed Loses (Leshay Immortality)
Dream of Metal Disallowed (crazy time) Wins (under some rules)
True Dilletante Disallowed (DCFS misuse) Loses (initiative, one shot)
Festering Anger Lad Disallowed (infinite loop) Loses (initiative, one shot)
Monty Disallowed (crazy time) Wins (under some rules)
Triple Cheeseburge with Onions Disallowed (Setting specific feats) Loses (no effective attack + vulnerable)
New World Record Mount Familiar Allowed? Loses (Initiative, no effective attack)
Jovocian Bomb Disallowed (infinite damage loop) Loses (AMF beats retributive damage)
Supermount Allowed? Loses (initiative, one shot)
Supermount 2.0 Allowed Loses (initiative, one shot)
Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy Disallowed (infinite loop) Wins (under some rules)
Tauric Ubercharger Allowed? Loses (initiative, one shot)
Uberercharger Disallowed(setting specific) Loses (initiative, one shot)
Psionic Sandwich Allowed Subsumed
Clone Army Disallowed (free wishes) Wins (under some rules)
Team Solars Varies Loses (initiative, one shot)
The Mailman Disallowed (setting specific) Loses (Survive first round, then attack)
Cindy Disallowed (setting specific) Loses (Save for 0, then attack)
The Gatling Chain Gun Tripper Allowed Loses (Can't hit)
Jack B. Quick Allowed Loses (Can't hit)
Fistbeard BeardFist Disallowed(infinite stat loop) Draw
Takahashi No Onisan Allowed Loses (Initiative, one shot, immune fear)
Ted the Heiney-Kicking Enabler Allowed Loses (initiative, one shot)
Bardic Badass Allowed? Loses (initiative, one shot)
Trixie Allowed Loses (can't attack effectively, one shot)
Feral Dreadlord Allowed Loses (initiative, one shot)
Trouserfang Dwarf Allowed Loses (initiative, one shot)
The Nasty Gentleman Disallowed (Setting Specific, action limit violation) Loses (initiative, one shot)
Killer Gnome Disallowed (Setting Specific) Loses (no effective attack)
The Other Killer Gnome Allowed? Loses (Initiative, One shot)
The King of Smack Allowed, Loses (no effective attack)
Flaming Homer Allowed Loses (no effective attack)
Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash Allowed Loses (no effective attack)
Haberdash the Masked Allowed Loses (no effective attack)
The Cube Disallowed (WBL violation) Draw: neither can damage the other


Dex made some serious attempts to counter the build, and eventually we found a mailman++ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14085257&postcount=569) approach which worked.

The remaining challenge seems to be: Can a wizard succeed without any campaign specific options and without Dragon Magazine?

The build has evolved with the challenge, and is currently:


There are two closely related builds. One emphasizes resistance via Mettle, and the other has a higher AC + Lockdown. A good wizard will beat a randomly drawn build with high probability. I'll use [] for the Mettle build and () for the AClockdown build.

BattleDancer 1/[Hexblade 3](Wilder 2/Crusader 1)/Master Thrower 4/Swordsage 1/Master Thrower 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Fist of Raziel 1/Witch Hunter 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Iajutsu master 5

The starting point is a 32 point buy Human who adventures to L6, then retires. Called out of retirement by a pressing disaster, the human temporarily switches bodies with gated LeShay, resets feats to have 3 exalted feats, and heroically dies, rising again (via Astral Seed) as a Saint LeShay. Via level buyoff, this is reduced to ECL = CL by CL 10. A class rebuild (exchanging fighter for master thrower) and a template rebuild (for Unseelie Fey) from PHII completes the body. Note that Unseelie Fey requires dice rolling, so it may need to be repeated a few times to get the good flight. After this, "Mantle of the Fiery Spirit" adds the fire subtype.

Initiative: 39
AC: 83 Touch AC: [71](83), Uncanny dodge
HP: 828 Fast Heal 10
Immune: Poison, Disease, Fear, Cold, Electricity, Acid, Fire
Vulnerable: Cold
Fort: 39, Refl [43](42), Will [38](40) + Evasion [+Mettle] +reroll 1 once
Speed 40, Fly 80 (good),
Space 5'
Reach 5'
Attack: ~[44](43)
Attack Routine with 10 touch attacks
Damage: ~162/hit (Shadowblade 20, Iajutsu Focus 136, 2 dagger, 3 Knowledge devotion)
Str 19, Dex 52, Con 35, Int 24, Wis 12, Chr 36

Class features by level:
1 AC+Chr
(3 Elude Touch) //Touch AC+Chr
[4) Mettle] //Will,Fort 0
5 Palm Throw //Double Attacks
6 Evasion //Refl 0
7 Defensive Throw // No AoO with thrown.
9 Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand
10 Weak Spot // All attacks touch
11 Knowledge Devotion
11 Fate Domain: Uncanny Dodge // Always keep AC
11 Pride Domain: Reroll first 1 on each save // P(save fail) = 0.0025
12 Su Magic Circle Against Evil //Prereq
13 Kami's Grace: Saves+Chr // Only fail save on 1
(14 Thicket of Blades) // Lockdown
(14 Indomitable Soul) // Strong Will save
15 Iron Heart Surge // Get out of trouble
15 White raven Tactics // Go twice in some rounds
16 AC+Int
16 WFinesse(Katana)
17 Init+Chr
20 Strike from the void // +8.25*Chr to Iajutsu damage

Feats:
1) Precise Shot // Prereq
1) (human) Able Learner //easy skills
1) (flaw) Nymph's Kiss //+1 skill
1) (flaw) Point Blank Shot //Prereq
1) (BDancer) E/S Power Attack //Prereq, useless.
3) Exalted Feat
5) (Swordsage) Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand): Dagger and Sai //Prereq
5) (MT) Quickdraw // Full attack thrown
6) Servant of the Heavens //Prereq
8) (MT) E/S Run // Double mobility while keeping AC
9) Shadow Blade // Damage+Dex
10) (Mthrow) Imp Crit (dagger) E/S Imp Init // Init+4, Prereq
10) (Mthrow) Imp Crit (Sai) E/S [Force of Personality] //Will save not weak
(Stand Still) //Lockdown
12) Track // Prereq
15) WF (Katana) // Prereq
16) WFinesse(Katana) // Generally useless
19) (Iaj. Master) Combat Expertise //Prereq
18) E/S Imp Combat Expertise //No Power attack from extra nasty Gate beasties.

LeShay Bonus Feats:
E/S Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment: Dream Domain // Immune Fear since it's a high save Ex Will disabler.
E/S Far Shot // Double thrown range.
E/S Improved Flight // Good >> Average
E/S Font of Life // Immune Fell Drain
E/S Rapid Shot // +1 attack/round

Here E/S = Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos

As a human with Int 20 or 24, Able Learner, and Nymph's kiss, there are many skills:
46 Tumble: Immune to AOO from movement, 10' step instead of 5'
46 Escape Artist + Dex + Easy Escape = get out of grapple
39 Sleight of Hand + skill tricks = flat-footed opponents. rob as a free action
38 Iajutsu Focus = Massive Damage
38 Diplomacy // talk your way through most problems
27 Balance = flat-footed immunity
26 Spot: Antisurprise
26 Sense Motive + BAB = Immune Feint
14 Concentration = immune AOO for thrown Weapons
+ minimal knowledge, Use Mage, Use Psionic, Diplomacy
+Skill tricks: Sudden Draw, Hidden Blade, Nimble Stand, Acrobatic backstab, Clarity of Vision, Easy Escape, Quick Escape, Collector of Stories

+ all the good L3- Martial Stances & Manuevers.

Grafts: Plated Skin, Scaly Skin, Hauling Back

Items:
There are several key custom command word 1/day items, including:
Remove Fatigue: No need to sleep
AM Harpoon: for mage busting
Riverine AMF shackles, worn at almost all times.


Cerebral Hood Symbiote

Standard items consist of many +2 skill enhancers, 200 mithril daggers, 2 Katanas, and a composite+4 longbow with arrows.


The build tricks:

Many of these tricks are known, but a few might not be.

Venerable = +3 to mental stats

Templates: Unseelie Fey + Saint. Level buyoff for Saint appears to be allowed. Level buyoff for LA+2 must occur at class level 6 and 9, and must be taken as soon as eligible. Prior to rising as a saint, the level adjustment was +0, so the character was ineligible.

Class optimization is very different for fighters than for wizards. 1-2 levels in base classes avoids all multiclassing penalties. Many classes with BAB+1 maximizes base save bonus. Only a very few prestige classes merit more than 1-2 levels.

Body hopping:
Caster level 25 Gate (LeShay) + Magic Jar + Astal Seed + death = a LeShay Body. Note that Magic Jar and Astral Seed are done via UMD and UPD, implying they can be implemented in the 25 round limit so the LeShay must accept the Magic Jaring as a free service. To be nice, suicide after ending the Magic Jar.

Hit Points. Magic Jar is inferior to Mind Switch in most ways, but it has the odd effect of hit points being a property of the body, unlike Mind Switch.

Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun the Dark Chaos 11 times to scavenge feats

A LeShay has 5 racial feats (= natural abilities that are a property of the body).

Virtual feat recycling. Swordsage Discipline focus "feats" are not real feats and hence not valid fuel for E/S. But they are valid for the Master Thrower "critical throw" at level 5, yielding real Imp critical (dagger) and Imp critical (Sai) feats.

Self-qualifying prestige class. Master Thrower requires BAB+5 and provides BAB. Hence, a PHII class rebuild quest (i.e. an excuse to earn some experience points) allows you to swap out BAB+1 classes (Duskblade 1, Barbarian 1, Ranger 1) in the first 5 levels for other classes (Beguiler 1, Monk 1, MThrow 1)

Late entry Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader for L3- level maneuvers & stances.

Cloistered Cleric/Fist of Raziel/Witch Hunter for Saves+chr. (Paladin 2 is much easier, but not Ex).


The Combat Roles:

The build can satisfy many roles

Tank: AC of 82-103 depending on circumstances + 1-in-400 chance of failing a save + Iron Heart Surge + very threatening + Fast Heal 10 + Evasion

Striker: Average damage >2000 in favorable circumstances. A dagger is a melee weapon, so drawing it triggers Iajutsu Focus. The dagger can be thrown. Weak Spot + Flat-footed nukes the defense of almost all, so nearly all attacks hit, and attacks are doubled via Palm throw. In unfavorable circumstance average damage ~300 remains significant.

Diplomancer: High Diplomacy + Sense Motive.

Init Monkey: Initiative +39 + White Raven Tactics = Go first + any ally goes second


Antiwizard Tactics:


Fighting a wizard requires many layers of tactics.

The primary antiwizard weapon is the antimagic. Some wizards astrally project. See Astral projectors below.

The second is a high spot.

The third is going first. An initiative of +39 is pretty decent.

The fourth is robbing the wizard of all little objects using DC 40 sleight of hand checks.

The fifth is finishing the wizard. Extreme acrobatics 10' step (DC 40) through a wizards space + Acrobatic backstab + Iajutsu focus + Palm Throw = high hp overkill penetrating any known level of damage reduction.

The seventh is "oops, there are allies".
(1) AMF eliminates most magical attack forms.
(2) Flat-footed Touch AC 71 defeats nearly all direct attacks.
(3) High saves defeat almost all nonmagical area effects.
(4) If all else fails, lots of HP to soak up damage.

Astral projectors: An astral projection in an AMF is suppressed. The spell does not end, so the wizard remains in hibernation on the far end. This puts the wizard in timeout. This might be a sufficient window for prepared allies to launch an assault on th wizard's stronghold.

With some more resources, this can be extended further in some circumstances. An AMF only suppresses the portion of spells that overlap. My understanding is that by RAW each 5x5 area is either affected or not by the AMF. This means that for >medium creatures, it is possible to partially suppress an astral projection, in particular the head. Even medium creatures may be vulnerable if we can catch their arms outside of the AMF.

A partially suppressed Astral projection might result in instant death as suddenly interior elements are exterior, but the funner choice is that the body continues to live. Legs can't breath, drink, or feed themselves, so they would die in short order. But, this may be avoidable indefinitely by casting suitable spells on the legs.

With some allies this means we can tie the legs to a stick and carry the wizard to some source of permanent AMF keeping the strung up legs head down inside the AMF. Alternatively, a friendly spellthief, and suitable applications of nonlethal damage could yield a compliant wizard outside of the AMF.


This is a further polishing of the AMF fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251901) build and I'm interested in any improvements or thoughts.

The starting build for this thread was:
Beguiler 1/BattleDancer 1/Fighter (Targeteer variant) 1/Monk 1 (Overwhelming Way variant)/Master Thrower 4/Swordsage 1/Master Thrower 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Fist of Raziel 1/Witch Hunter 1/Iajutsu master 5

The starting point is a 32 point buy Venerable Unseelie Fey Magic-Blooded Draconic Human, with a switch to LeShay ending the build

Initiative: 67
AC: 87 Touch AC: 82, Uncanny dodge
HP: 828 Fast Heal 10
Immune: Poison, Disease, Fear
Fort: 42, Refl 48+Evasion, Will 27
Speed 70, Fly 130 (good), Swim 40
Space 5'
Reach 10'
Attack: ~41
Attack Routine with 12 touch attacks (via Targeteer Arrow Swarm)
Damage: ~168/hit (Shadowblade 20, Sneak Attack 7, Iajutsu Focus 136, 2 dagger, 3 Knowledge devotion)
Str 21, Dex 50, Con 36, Int 20, Wis 15, Chr 36

Class features by level:
1) Arcane Spells L2-
1) Trapfinding
2) AC+Chr
3) Arrow Swarm (+2 ranged attacks, all at -5)
4) AC+Wis->AC+Chr
5) Palm Throw
6) Evasion
7) Defensive Throw
9) Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand
10) Weak Spot
11) Thicket of Blades Stance
12) Iron Heart Surge, White raven Tactics
13) Knowledge Devotion
13) Fate Domain: Uncanny Dodge
13) Pride Domain: Reroll first 1 on each save
14) Su Magic Circle Against Evil
15) Kami's Grace: Saves+Chr
16) AC+Int
16) WFinesse(Katana)
17) Init+Chr
20) Strike from the void(+8.25*Chr to Iajutsu damage)

Feats:
1) Precocious Apprentice
1) (human) Able Learner
1) (flaw) Nymph's Kiss
1) (flaw) Point Blank Shot
2) (BDancer) Improved Unarmed Strike
3) Rapid Shot
3) (Targeteer) E/S Force of Personality
3) (Targeteer) E/S Precise Shot
3) (monk) IUS E/S Ascetic Mage
4) (monk) Power Attack
5) (Swordsage) Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand): Dagger and Sai
6) Shadowblade
6) (MThrow) Quickdraw
9) Imp Init
9) (Mthrow) Snatch Arrows E/S Combat Reflexes
10) (Mthrow) Imp Crit (dagger) E/S Servant of the Heavens
10) (Mthrow) Imp Crit (Sai) E/S StandStill
12) Track
15) WF (Katana)
16) WFinesse(Katana)
19) (Iaj. Master) Combat Expertise
18) E/S Imp Combat Expertise

LeShay Bonus Feats:
E/S Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment: Dream Domain
E/S Dark Stalker
E/S Improved Flight
E/S Quick Recovery
E/S Mage Slayer

Here E/S = Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos

As a human with Int 20, Able Learner, and Nymph's kiss, there are many skills: 45 Tumble: Immune to AOO from movement, 10' step instead of 5'
45 Escape Artist + Dex + Easy Escape = get out of grapple
53 Hide: Surprise
51 Move Silently: Surprise
38 Spot: Antisurprise
28 Sense Motive + BAB = Immune Feint
39 Iajutsu Focus = Massive Damage
39 Sleight of Hand + skill tricks = flat-footed opponents. rob as a free action
34 Search = Surprise avoidance
33 Disable Device = disarm magic traps
30 Open Lock = take 10 on amazing locks
27 Balance = flat-footed immunity
15 Concentration = immune AOO for thrown Weapons
+ minimal knowledge, Use Mage, Use Psionic, Diplomacy
+Skill tricks: Sudden Draw, Hidden Blade, Nimble Stand, Acrobatic backstab, Clarity of Vision, Easy Escape, Quick Escape, Collector of Stories

+ all the good L3- Martial Stances & Manuevers.

Grafts: Fast Leg*2, Feathered Wings, Added Tail

Items:
There are several key custom command word 1/day items, including:
Contingent celerity: Interrupt victory
Foresight: no Flat-footed
Moment of Prescience (25th level): Initiative or other actions
Mindblank: Divination Immunity
Water Breathing: Drown Immunity

In addition:
Hathran Mask of TrueSeeing: Avoid surprise
Ring of Anticipation: Initiative
Sandals of the Vagabond: Initiative
Belt of Battle: Initiative and actions
AM-torc: Defense/Debuff
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis: Sneaking around

In addition, there are permanent spells/Psionics (caster level 25)
Detect Magic = avoid surprises
Ubiquitous Vision = No flanks
Improved Blindsight = No need to spot most
Cloud Wings = +30 flight

[metabolicjosh]

To bad it was a astral projection. Im on my own genesis plane so how do you know where i am? And your just going to stand on my body for 10 minutes?
Then i send a huge monster via gate after you. Over & over.

Or i study in safety for your true name.

Oh and i can use my spell in AMF because I have Initiate of Mystria.

SO I WILL

TWIN REPEATING ENERGY AFFINITY/SUBSITUTION/ADMIXTURE MAXIMIZED ORB OF FORCE.
Oh did i mention that i used limited wish to get a auto hit on you?

See wizards (and sorcerers) must be prepared! Every thing that i just did is standard prep. Not to forget that i used the spell that lets me have a spell ready even when i die. So i can bring my self back even more prepared for you specifically.

last post

So first i get owned. Oh you made me MAD!

Then I watch you with divination.(remember Initiate of mystria)
Then i ask the gods if you have any way to come back if i kill you(im paranoid)
Then i kill Said Way.
Then i kill you in your sleep.
Then i raise you as my pet. Cast flesh to stone, Stone to Mud, Clear Water.
Then i drink you.
Then i break into hell and take your soul and do it all over again.

[Doorhandle]

...I'm sure this build personally pissed metabolicjosh off but I'm also pretty sure that is an accurate description of what an optimised wizard can do. :smallconfused:

Anyway, some counterpoints (but I'll let Anthrowhale do most of his own defence.)

To bad it was a astral projection. Im on my own genesis plane so how do you know where i am? And your just going to stand on my body for 10 minutes?
Then i send a huge monster via gate after you. Over & over.

Or i study in safety for your true name.

*he'll stand over you body for 30 minutes, because that how long astral projection takes to recast.

*Gate wasn't specific in it's description, but creatures gated in, if they counted as summoned, would still be vulnerable to an A.M.F, and thus they would not be able to walk into melee range.

*It's unlikely that the summoned beasts would even find the man due to his excessive hide/move silently ranks.

*Even if they don't count as summoned, they wouldn't be able to CAST at you because of the field, and this character is badass enough to easily take out monsters in a HUGE excess of his hit-die in single combat, if they can even find him, as above.

*Fortitude save vs uname, and you still have to be on the same plane.


Oh and i can use my spell in AMF because I have Initiate of Mystria.

SO I WILL

TWIN REPEATING ENERGY AFFINITY/SUBSITUTION/ADMIXTURE MAXIMIZED ORB OF FORCE.
Oh did i mention that i used limited wish to get a auto hit on you?

See wizards (and sorcerers) must be prepared! Every thing that i just did is standard prep. Not to forget that i used the spell that lets me have a spell ready even when i die. So i can bring my self back even more prepared for you specifically.

* So? This build will win initiative and the congruency war and can probably 1-round you, as you, as a wizard, will not have the same hitdie/health bonuses, multi-classing be dammed.

* Assuming the worst and your wizard lives: that combo is 480 damage. Not enough to one-hit him, even with autohit, and if the first round didn't do it the second will kill you. You would actually have better luck with a save-or-die, as he can still nat 1 his fortitude save.


last post

So first i get owned. Oh you made me MAD!

Then I watch you with divination.(remember Initiate of mystria)
Then i ask the gods if you have any way to come back if i kill you(im paranoid)
Then i kill Said Way.
Then i kill you in your sleep.
Then i raise you as my pet. Cast flesh to stone, Stone to Mud, Clear Water.
Then i drink you.
Then i break into hell and take your soul and do it all over again.

You found 1 weakness here: he needs to sleep. Besides that though, this guy can easily keep pace with other superoptimised beat-sticks.

Any way to avoid that, Anthrowhale?

[ILM]

I like how reincarnation cheese stacked on 3.0 rituals from SS, LA buyoff, DCFS, class retraining and Magic Jar bodysnatching are all fair game, but shrink item hat? OH HELL NO, doesn't work because PHYSICS.

I'd also like to point out that you went through all this work (not to mention relying on many wizard-made custom items of 1/day pwn) to defeat a straight Wizard 20 using only core spells, which says a lot about why the wizard-first crowd is so large to begin with.

edit:

Then I watch you with divination.(remember Initiate of mystria)
I don't think Initiate of Mystra helps against Mind Blank though.

[Alleran]

Oh and i can use my spell in AMF because I have Initiate of Mystria.
For that, you'd need three cleric levels.

[Gwendol]

Maybe initiate of Mystria is something else?

[Anthrowhale]

I don't follow MetabolicJosh:

(a) Methods for dealing with an astral projection are addressed, read below.
(b) An unspecified huge monster isn't scary.
(c) Studying truename doesn't look helpful.
(d) Re: IoM. You'll need to specify a build.
(e) How did you even get an attack off? And as Doorhandle notes: "ow", but not death.
(f) It's pretty clear that if you nail a wizard, you better make it stick.
(g) Mindblank defeats divination.

Overall, lots of shooting from the hip, not much hitting.

For Doorhandle:
Technically LeShay's sleep although as an elf^2 they shouldn't. I can add in a custom item of 1/day "Remove Fatigue" if necessary.

For ILM:
(a) I provided a counter for shrink item cones, even though I don't necessarily believe in them.
(b) I didn't specify a core-only wizard.

[Boci]

(a) I provided a counter for shrink item cones, even though I don't necessarily believe in them.

Quite a few people do not believe Unseelie fey is LA 0, but its RAW. Do you have a quote to back up your opinion that you would have time for a grapple?

[ILM]

For ILM:
(a) I provided a counter for shrink item cones, even though I don't necessarily believe in them.
(b) I didn't specify a core-only wizard.
a) Not really; you said that it'd probably cut limbs off as it expands, which is not supported by RAW, and you said that you would have time to "initiate a grapple before it falls at 1 gravity movement speeds", which implies you've suddenly decided that physics were a relevant argument in a thread debating whether or not you may attack someone wearing a magical hat made of lead enchanted to stay tiny up until someone decides to disrupt the flow of magic in its area, which I submit is a rather unconventional time to bring up your love of newtonian movement.

Still, if you want to go all 10th grade physics on us, let's go all the way: an average humanoid spellcaster will be about 170cm high, and said hat will be sitting right on top of his head. Assuming that when suppressed by an AMF, the hat expands then falls from that height (and note that depending on the physics of expansion, it is more likely it expands from some kind of barycentric point such as its center of gravity, meaning the lower edges will actually travel faster than what I'm about to calculate), it will take root(2*h/g) seconds to fall, or about 0.589 seconds. For a small-size caster (say, about 100cm high), that's more like 0.45 seconds.

Your fly speed is 130 ft/round, and the AMF extends 10 feet, meaning that from the moment the hat enters the AMF, it takes you 0.46 seconds to get to the caster (0.23 seconds if you're charging).

After 0.23 seconds, the hat has only fallen about 26 cm, so you should be good (aside from the fact, of course, that if you're grappling you're as likely as the mage to get limbs cut off by the magically un-shrunk hat - your logic, not mine). After 0.46 seconds, however, the hat is only 66 cm from the ground. In other words, if you're charging you may be OK (up to your getting crushed by the edge of a large lead hat), but if you only used a regular move action you better make sure you go for the legs.


Of course none of that matters, because by RAW the hat expands in exactly no time at all. Magic!


b) My point is that a simple Wiz 20 with core-only spells can force you to use all of your tricks, while you needed a 12-class monstrosity just to achieve a credible threat. Any half-brained turnip can roll up a Wiz 20, while I'm pretty sure you'd need inordinate amounts of time and three PhDs to roll up the kind of TO character you did (which is fine, by the way, it's a perfectly valid hobby). This just goes to show why so many people keep insisting wizards are so powerful: not only are they powerful, they're powerful right out of the box.



By the way, can we get the total cost for the character's equipement? I'd do the work but you've probably run the numbers already. How much does all of that cost, including the custom items and the cost of spells and stuff?

[ahenobarbi]

The basic goal here is to use all legal tricks to optimize a fighter (= beat stick specialist), just to see how optimized it can be. An optimized fighter can play many roles and can survive and overcome many challenges. To achieve that kind of status, the fighter optimization needs to be fairly balanced.

I wouldn't call your build a fighter build. Because, you know a single fighter level. And could you do WBL math?



The fifth is antimagic. Approach the wizard (Move 130 > Lifesight range) and trigger the AM Torc (Swift?) action. This eliminates all magical defenses.
(1) Note that obvious AMF contingencies don't work. "contingency, exposure to AMF" doesn't work because the contingency is suppressed by exposure. Similarly, "contingency, AMF near" doesn't work, because the AMF wasn't near before it was triggered and after triggering the contingency is suppressed.

But contingencies in case someone gets to close work.


(2) Some wizards are fond of shrink item lead cones. My opinion of this tactic is low (read the AMF fighter post), as it seems likely to not work or result in limbs on different sides of the cone. Nevertheless, if a giant cone expands above the head of the wizard we can initiate a grapple before it falls at 1 gravity movement speeds.

But the cone doesn't fall at 1g acceleration. It instantly resumes it's original size.



The sixth is nailing the wizard down. Inside a cone this is automatic. Outside a cone, we have Combat Reflexes + Stand Still + Sudden Draw + IF = not moving anywhere and for huge+ wizards not fully in the AMF, we have Combat Reflexes + Mage Slayer + Sudden Draw + IF = not casting a spell.

What prevents wizard from casting Invoke Magic (http://dndtools.eu/spells/lords-of-madness--72/invoke-magic--1538/) followed by defensively casting Sanctum Spell Silenced Teleport?


Astral projectors: An astral projection in an AMF is suppressed. The spell does not end, so the wizard remains in hibernation on the far end. This puts the wizard in timeout for 110 minutes. This might be a sufficient window for prepared allies to launch an assault on th wizard's stronghold.

Unless wizard for example setup contingency (on physical body) to dispel the astral travel if it's suppressed for longer than minute.

[metabolicjosh]

I will post the build in a hour.
Im making on the myth-weavers for easy access.

[metabolicjosh]

Just to make you understand.
I can cast any level 9 spell in a level 0 spell slot.
I can do it in a anti magic field.
I can do it spontaneously.

I can revive myself from the dead.
I can cast any epic spell (without research) that I want in one level.

SO SUCK IT!
No but really wizards cant be beat. Sorry

[Randomguy]

Would you mind giving a breakdown of your attack routine? As in, how many attacks you make, what each attack is from, and how much damage they each do, and what each source of damage is from? It's a bit confusing. Also, It seems as though you're using thrown weapons, but your build focuses on coming up close to the wizard, so I think I'm misunderstanding something.

One thing I notice that's wrong with your build is that you can't gate in LeShay, since they aren't extraplanar. Of course, you could just gate in a half-celestial Leshay, so that doesn't really matter.

In any case, since the entire "switch bodies with a LeShay" trick uses magic, it would be easier to pull off for a wizard than it is for you, since the wizard wouldn't need to go around buying magic items.
I wouldn't call a 3 level cleric dip for initiate of Mystra unreasonable, either, since all it costs is 5 spells in total in return for total immunity to antimagic, which is a fair trade.

Do you have any defences against Disjunction?

All your sneaking around skill doesn't really add up to much: You come within 100 feet of the wizard. The wizard notices a very intelligent creature coming close to it very, very fast via Mindsight, or alternatively notices an antimagic field coming close to it very fast via permanancied arcane sight.

This would be when the wizard does something to stop you. There are several options, celerity being one of them, a contingent teleportation spell being another. (contingent via spell, not item). Most wizards probably have better use for a contingency, so celerity would be more likely.

So the wizard casts celerity. This would set off your contingent celerity, which would set off the Wizard's contingent celerity to interrupt someone's interrupting his interrupt. It's actually a pretty reasonable contingency, since celerity is really only used as a panic button, and there's nothing worse than a panic button not working.
Even if there was an arms race of who could get the most contingent celereties, the wizard would win, since he can actually craft them, which takes less money. And the xp cost shouldn't be much of a problem, since it should be the ice assassin of a caster churning out the the things.
So the wizard would go first.
And since Phantom Steed has a speed of 240 feet, which is significantly faster than you, you probably wouldn't be able to approach the wizard.

You're right that a wizard would have some trouble hurting you (without spending some resources), since you've got really high saves and touch AC. Of course, they could still hit you: 25 from dex (leshay) + 10 from BAB + 20 from quickened true strike + 20 (Moment of Persience). I'm sure there's a more efficient way to do it, though. But there are a bunch of spells that do damage with no save, no attack roll, like Flesh to salt.

Oh, by the way, called creatures (from planar binding) don't wink out in an antimagic field, just summoned ones.

[metabolicjosh]

Nice Randomguy

Not to mention that i can cast -albeit complete cheese- a total of 65 level 9
miracles at you.

See
1. Arcane fusion combines a lvl 4 and a lvl 3 spell. -errata said you can metamagic them.
2. I can cast miracle as a level 0 spell.
3. i can cast Arcane fusion as a lvl 4 spell.
4. You die

Get what im doing?

I Cast a Arcane fusion with a Miracle & Arcane Fusion that has a Arcane fusion with a Miracle & Acane Fusion that has a Arcane fusion with a Miracle & Acane Fusion that has a Arcane fusion with a Miracle & Acane Fusion that has a Arcane fusion with a Miracle & Acane Fusion that has... until i am out of spells. But i am being nice because it is only supposed use one spell slot. And I am just being fair by using actual spell slots.

[ahenobarbi]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=441787

Just to make you understand.
I can cast any level 9 spell in a level 0 spell slot.

1) How? You get silent image as 0th level spell but don't you have to heighten it to 10th level (with various metamagic, not just heighten) to mimic 9th level spell?

2) Can't you mimic only evocations and some conjurations from Sor/Wiz list?

3) How do you mimic miracle?

4) Isn't Improved Metamagic epic feat?

[ahenobarbi]

Not to mention that i can cast -albeit complete cheese- a total of 65 level 9 miracles at you.

Isn't purpose of the build in OP to get rid of Wizard before ([s]he|it) can act, making this irrelevant?

[metabolicjosh]

I will ammend my statment .

It is Level 1

So silent image is heightened to level 10 using Heighten spell and Earth spell.
That would use a 10th level spell slot.
But i have improved metamagic because of incantatrix. I also have arcane thesis silent image. Both of those lower the spell adjustment by 1 per metamgic applied.

So
Earth spell
+1 > -1
Highten Spell
+8 > +6
Still Spell
+1 > -1
Silent Spell
+1 > -1
Invisible
+1 > -1
Energy Subsitution
+0 > -2

Bang any Evocation Spell spontaneous up to level 9 For a level 1 slot. FTW!
Miracle is an Evocation spell.

[metabolicjosh]

Isn't purpose of the build in OP to get rid of Wizard before ([s]he|it) can act, making this irrelevant?
Except I don't stay dead! Or you killed my simulacrum. Then I come full force!

And I will...

Watch you with divination.(remember Initiate of mystria)
Ask the gods if you have any way to come back if i kill you(im paranoid)
Kill Said Way.
Kill you in your sleep.
Raise you as my pet. Cast flesh to stone, Stone to Mud, Clear Water.
Drink you
Break into hell and take your soul and do it all over again.

Just because I am an ass. And paranoid... And insane... And a God... Almost...

[Cruiser1]

This is certainly a nice TO build able to take out unoptimized casters. However with levels of Cleric and full casting classes it isn't really "Fighter beats Wizard" as much as it's "Wizard beats Wizard", which everybody already knows is the only way to potentially beat them. :smallsmile:

(flaw) Nymph's Kiss
That's an exalted feat. If you ever commit an evil act you lose your exalted feats. I hope whatever Wizard you're trying to murder is evil.

Win the initiative check. My understanding is that most wizards are stretched achieving initiative bonus >50 so +67 should win.
Wizards don't need high initiative. Wizards are Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise (and then Polymorphed back into their normal form so they look normal but have the Dire Tortoise (Su) abilities) so they always get a free surprise round against you.

Win the interrupt war. Some wizards will have celerity
All but the most unoptimized Wizards have multiple Celerties. Celerity as prepared spell. Contingent Celerity. Familiar(s) have Celerity and Dimension Door given by Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, so it can teleport it plus Wizard to safety if need be. Familiar has its own Contingent Celerity. Familiar maintains readied action throughout the day. That's five interrupts before getting into Craft Contingent Celerity and the Wizard's own item based Celerities, which the Wizard can craft more of and cheaper.

The fifth is antimagic. This eliminates all magical defenses.
There are many ways to block antimagic beyond tinfoil hats. Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil wards act as Prismatic Walls and block antimagic. Invoke Magic works in antimagic. Theurging and other classes with access to the Cleric list allow Initiate of Mystra without spending three levels in Cleric.

Astral projectors: An astral projection in an AMF is suppressed. The spell does not end, so the wizard remains in hibernation on the far end.
Any astral projector worth the name has contingent spells not only on their Astral Projection self, but also on their hibernating self. An automatic Dispel Magic on the hibernating self is a quick way to guarantee a return to body if something is able to adversely affect or delay the projected self.

[metabolicjosh]

What he said.

But its ok i mean wizards cant be beat.

[Flickerdart]

What he said.

But its ok i mean wizards cant be beat.
They can be beat. By better, more prepared wizards, and maybe some other T1s could make a good showing of it at the levels discussed.

[ahenobarbi]

Watch you with divination.(remember Initiate of mystria)

That only allows casting in AMF and DMZ. It doesn't allow divinations on mind-blanked individuals.


I will ammend my statment .

It is Level 1

So silent image is heightened to level 10 using Heighten spell and Earth spell.
That would use a 10th level spell slot.
But i have improved metamagic because of incantatrix. I also have arcane thesis silent image. Both of those lower the spell adjustment by 1 per metamgic applied.

But Improved Metamagic can't reduce cost below +1. And Earth Spell is not a metamagic - it's a feat affecting heightened spells. And arcane thesis doesn't affect Heighten Spell. So it would be:

Heighten Spell
+8 -> +7
Still Spell
+1 -> 0
Silent Spell
+1 -> 0
Invisible
+1 -> 0
Energy Subsitution
+0 -> -1

Total +6. That is enough assuming you get +2 spell level from Earth Spell and Sanctum spell. You could lower needed slot with more +0 metamagic.

[Lostbutseeking]

I will ammend my statment .

It is Level 1

So silent image is heightened to level 10 using Heighten spell and Earth spell.
That would use a 10th level spell slot.
But i have improved metamagic because of incantatrix. I also have arcane thesis silent image. Both of those lower the spell adjustment by 1 per metamgic applied.

So
Earth spell
+1 > -1
Highten Spell
+8 > +6
Still Spell
+1 > -1
Silent Spell
+1 > -1
Invisible
+1 > -1
Energy Subsitution
+0 > -2

Bang any Evocation Spell spontaneous up to level 9 For a level 1 slot. FTW!
Miracle is an Evocation spell.

First up Incantatix's improved metamagic caps out at +1. Consequently +1's are at 0 with Thesis not -1.

Earth spell is a rider to heighen spell, not a metamagic in it's own right.
Heighten spell explicitly doesnt work with arcane thesis.
Energy substitution requires the spell to have an energy descriptor, which silent image doesn.

Invisible is +0 default, -1 with Thesis.

[metabolicjosh]

I was being lazy but yes you could do that and i would recommend it.

[dextercorvia]

Arcane Thesis does not work with Heighten.

[zlefin]

the best way to beat casters is with tier 2-3 homebrew caster hoser classes. (i have a plan for a commoner PrC that goes into epic levels and has some ridiculous abiltiies to hose casters; of course he's tier 2-3 since he also has major weaknesses to fighters.)
Hmm, we need more such tier 2-3 homebrews; preferably tier 3; but some of the caster-hoser abilities might rise a class to tier 2 levels; even if they'd otherwise be 3-ish.

[Snowbluff]

What happens if I take a Blood line, use a thought bottle to offset the XP costs, and use the increased max rank available to simply qualify for Epic Spellcasting pre-epic? IIRC, their are ways to become immune to AMF, be invisible to any pre-epic detection method, and be immune to all pre-epic spells with absurdly low Spellcraft checks (and, therefore, cost).

Also, you can add an energy descriptor with snowcasting. Since the spell needs snowcasting to be cast wit henergy substitution, you can use Eschew Materials to ignore the move action snowball fight.

[Morithias]

I use the pun-pun build to grant myself manipulate form.

I give myself the power "Power of the Creator: The Creator can rewrite the rules of reality including the mundane and magical laws as he/she see fit."

Then I slap you all over the head with the unholy RPG book, and reshape the laws so we're now in that universe as punishment for all this trying to one-up each other in what is suppose to be a co-operative game about sitting around a table with friends drinking mountain dew and eating pizza.

Seriously people all this trying to one up each other is just starting to come across as immature. Can't we all get past this? Please? Go back to making builds that revolve around how much alcohol you can chug down without being immune to poison outright? Start making builds about who can make the best ballroom dancer, or cook?

...Actually that's not a bad idea....give me a second.

[Snowbluff]

Seriously people all this trying to one up each other is just starting to come across as immature. Can't we all get past this? Please? Go back to making builds that revolve around how much alcohol you can chug down without being immune to poison outright? Start making builds about who can make the best ballroom dancer, or cook?


/thread beast dancer with Nanomachine tricks.

Seriously, without knowledge of greater intent or the people behind these posts, it's rather presumptuous to be call this immature. In lieu of a table for these people to sit around, I find this an adequate way for them to play their roleplaying game.

You know, the one that is well know for it's in-depth and varied character building.

[ahenobarbi]

Then I slap you all over the head with the unholy RPG book, and reshape the laws so we're now in that universe as punishment for all this trying to one-up each other in what is suppose to be a co-operative game about sitting around a table with friends drinking mountain dew and eating pizza.

Maybe you didin't notice but were not friends sitting around a table and actually playing d&d but strangers sitting around the world discussing d&d TO :smallwink:



Seriously people all this trying to one up each other is just starting to come across as immature. Can't we all get past this? Please?

You're free not to participate in threads that you don't enjoy (and let others have their kind of fun).



You know, the one that is well know for it's in-depth and varied character building.

Did you forget to use sarcasm color here :smallconfused:

[Morithias]

/thread beast dancer with Nanomachine tricks.

Seriously, without knowledge of greater intent or the people behind these posts, it's rather presumptuous to be call this immature. In lieu of a table for these people to sit around, I find this an adequate way for them to play their roleplaying game.

You know, the one that is well know for it's in-depth and varied character building.

You have two people fighting and one guy basically posted a build where he said "I win, I am god". I'm just saying this has broken into Eric Cartman "I have all the powers including the powers of all you other guys" type fighting. I considered it immature and kid-like when he did it.

I have nothing against optimizing builds for experimentation, but these fights are starting to seem to be less about the game and trying new combonations and more about who has the bigger hyper-weapon.


Maybe you didin't notice but were not friends sitting around a table and actually playing d&d but strangers sitting around the world discussing d&d TO :smallwink:
:

I was just pointing out that if we're going to cross into cheesy terrority, I can literally make a character that makes me the DM RAW and lets me force everyone to play an unholy game that all munchkins (Hell anyone) hates, a game where the only thing you get to pick is your gender and EVERYTHING else is chosen for you, via a symbol where the curve is so biased towards the middle getting a character that is above average is a near miracle. But even if you roll a perfect character and get exactly what you want, the mere fact that you're playing this game will make you pray for death and your soul be taken to the nine hells of Baator.

I'm just saying RAW Pun-pun build can let me do that.

[ahenobarbi]

You have two people fighting and one guy basically posted a build where he said "I win, I am god". I'm just saying this has broken into Eric Cartman "I have all the powers including the powers of all you other guys" type fighting. I considered it immature and kid-like when he did it.

I think you missed that part where metabolicjosh used rules of the game to make that claim, it makes a big difference :smallbiggrin:

And I kind of can understand metabolicjosh - one can get annoyed when arguing with internets who refuse to understand some point (here: you really can't take on high-level casters without relying on high-level casters (or casters being a lot less optimized)).

[Morithias]

I think you missed that part where metabolicjosh used rules of the game to make that claim, it makes a big difference :smallbiggrin:

And I kind of can understand metabolicjosh - one can get annoyed when arguing with internets who refuse to understand some point (here: you really can't take on high-level casters without relying on high-level casters (or casters being a lot less optimized)).

Yeah you're probably right. It's just...maybe it's just my gaming philosophy that I've grown over the years, but to me this isn't what being an optimizer is about.

Anyone can steal a combination of broken feats to create an almighty god. Why not experiment with something new? See who can make the best merchant, build the best castle, lay the most bar maids. I just want to see something new rather than these glass cannon one round rocket matches. You know how DM of the Rings pointed out how lame of a D&D campaign lord of the rings would be? Imagine if you watched a movie based off D&D where everyone was a power gamer like that, every fight lasts six seconds, the villain can't be defeated without the DM missing something really obvious, and the whole campaign revolves around looking into crystal balls and trying to scry on each other to teleport in, and when someone in a blue moon finally manages to kill the other. OOPS it's an astral projection and the audience just wasted watching 2 hours of POINTLESS STUFF.

I'm just saying people... I get wanting to make super strong builds, "Who can do the most damage" "Who can run the fastest" "Who has the highest Charisma", etc. But this stuff...maybe it's just me...but it's just the same...tricks...over...and...over...and...over.

It's true we've probably exhausted all the best tricks. All the stuff to make the most broken casters, but that's when you push that stuff aside and start experimenting with the rest of the stuff! Quick make me a fighter that does as much damage as you can in one round without Lion Spirit Barbarian or Any form of Power attack.

I would love to see that build. Rather than this endless rocket tag.

I've never entered in the Iron Chef competitions, but they're EXACTLY what I mean. I watch those like a hawk and love them.

I guess I just don't find it clever to make an almighty wizard abusing heightened shadow spells and genesis. It's the D&D equivalent of making a movie about a disabled person in Oscar season.

Edit: Oh no, I think I might actually be losing interest in D&D...I actually reread that and man it feels like I just gave my dog a funeral...I need to go sit in a corner and think long and hard about where I'm going with my gaming philosophy.

Edit: Okay this is also getting off topic. I am going to move this debate to another thread. I think what happened is a misread something, overreached out of fear, etc. But I don't think I'm wrong, but this is not the right place to debate it.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah you're probably right. It's just...maybe it's just my gaming philosophy that I've grown over the years, but to me this isn't what being an optimizer is about.

Yeah you seem to fatally missing the point here.


*wizards are broken snip*

I would love to see that build. Rather than this endless rocket tag.

It is pointless. More on that later.

Also, more on Iron Chef and your challenge as well.


I've never entered in the Iron Chef competitions, but they're EXACTLY what I mean. I watch those like a hawk and love them.

I guess I just don't find it clever to make an almighty wizard abusing heightened shadow spells and genesis. It's the D&D equivalent of making a movie about a disabled person in Oscar season.

Well, you see the problem is not whether or not it is clever, but how clever you would have to be to beat it. The fact of the matter is that magic is made out of options. Hell, this build can't work it if weren't for casters (Somebody has to make that Torc of AM).

Someone saying they can kill a Batman Wizard and posting a melee build is like someone saying that Gravity doesn't exist and bringing a turnip to prove it. It the built uses magic items, it's like the turnip was covered in the apple that fell on newton's head.

To make matters worse, this build is thoroughly optimized. Only the up-most scrutiny and optimization may be used for our point to get across.

As for actually being clever or making creative builds, we get alot of it around herem like you pointed out. Complaining about it not happening on a TO thread is kind of silly.

Finally. The Iron Chefs. I never participate. Why? Too confining. I got bigger fish to fry in my independent study of the system. Maybe they'll come up with a challenge that interests me, but I am really not into how to fake being an Assassin or mess around with Pyrokinectisist (or any other low-options build).

Also, your challenge is for a "who can do the most damage" challenge. Even if it is confined. Hypocrite. :smallfrown: (Also, I am opposed to fighter builds in general. ToB FTW)

Check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254442)if you want things to mess around with. I'm putting this here so you know I am not part of the problem, if there is one. :smalltongue:

[Anthrowhale]

Do you have a quote to back up your opinion that you would have time for a grapple?

No, just a default to sanity in the presence of lack of rules. The entire cone hat thing is of this flavor as there aren't rules as far as I can tell.

For ILM: read the tactics a bit more. You don't start with AMF on, but rather trigger it when adjacent, halving all required speeds for a grapple. Your moving about 20'/second with a single move, which means that 5' takes 1/4 of a second.

Also, I don't see how an instantaneous expansion helps you. Why would it expand down rather than up?

W.r.t. (b), I'm under no illusions that the necessary optimizations were easy.

The equipment alone is worth somewhat less than 400K, but with all the spells and body hopping, the costs are just about 760K. I'll detail things more later.



But contingencies in case someone gets to close work.


This seems likely to trigger way to often? In any case, it's a rather lonely existence.



It instantly resumes it's original size.


Most traps require at least a reflex save. Why do you think it expands down rather than up?



What prevents wizard from casting Invoke Magic (http://dndtools.eu/spells/lords-of-madness--72/invoke-magic--1538/) followed by defensively casting Sanctum Spell Silenced Teleport?


A concentration check of almost 200 after mage slayer kicks in (and, possibly, being dead).



Unless wizard for example setup contingency (on physical body) to dispel the astral travel if it's suppressed for longer than minute.

Events on another plane generally aren't valid triggers for contingency.

[Flickerdart]

Events on another plane generally aren't valid triggers for contingency.
[citation needed]

[Augmental]

No, just a default to sanity in the presence of lack of rules. The entire cone hat thing is of this flavor as there aren't rules as far as I can tell.

Well, most people think it works.


This seems likely to trigger way to often? In any case, it's a rather lonely existence.

I'm pretty sure he meant "whenever I'm approached by someone who's trying to kill me" or similar.

[metabolicjosh]

I also didnt use any magic items yet.

But....
What if you paid a god to make ice assassins of me.... that might be fair...

Hmmm... Now i want to see that story

[Anthrowhale]

MetabolicJosh: Can you detail your defenses? As it is, it looks like the AMF isn't even necessary to take him out.

Also, there are rules you appear to have misread that neuter your build.
(1) IoM does not allow divination to beat Mindblank.
(2) Improved Metamgic (from Incantatrix) doesn't reduce metamagic by more than 1 level and doesn't work in an AMF.


Would you mind giving a breakdown of your attack routine?


12 attacks, each a thrown dagger from short range. 4 come from BAB 16, 2 from Arrow Storm, and the attacks are doubled via Palm Throw. The damage is about 168 in expectation, which 136 (IF) + 20 (shadow blade) + 7 (sneak attack) + change. Proximity is for AMF + Mage Slayer feat.



In any case, since the entire "switch bodies with a LeShay" trick uses magic, it would be easier to pull off for a wizard than it is for you, since the wizard wouldn't need to go around buying magic items.


It would also be less meaningful for a wizard.



I wouldn't call a 3 level cleric dip for initiate of Mystra unreasonable, either, since all it costs is 5 spells in total in return for total immunity to antimagic, which is a fair trade.


Whether it's reasonable or not, a 3 level feat tax is pretty heavy for a wizard and something that I rarely see paid.



Do you have any defences against Disjunction?


High will save, few magic items, and a hot rod body.



All your sneaking around skill doesn't really add up to much: You come within 100 feet of the wizard. The wizard notices a very intelligent creature coming close to it very, very fast via Mindsight, or alternatively notices an antimagic field coming close to it very fast via permanancied arcane sight.


Again, AMF is off at the beginning.



So the wizard would go first.


The many contingent celerities wizard does seem like it would go first.



And since Phantom Steed has a speed of 240 feet, which is significantly faster than you, you probably wouldn't be able to approach the wizard.


The theory is that the wizard doesn't start out running away. Whether or not that's a reasonable theory depends on context.



You're right that a wizard would have some trouble hurting you (without spending some resources), since you've got really high saves and touch AC. Of course, they could still hit you: 25 from dex (leshay) + 10 from BAB + 20 from quickened true strike + 20 (Moment of Persience).


+75 mostly works for one hit, but there are enough HP to take a hit.

Edit: I realized that MoP and True strike don't stack. You're back to not hitting.



But there are a bunch of spells that do damage with no save, no attack roll, like Flesh to salt.


10d6 doesn't look that bad? I agree that you can scratch the build.



Oh, by the way, called creatures (from planar binding) don't wink out in an antimagic field, just summoned ones.

Right.

[metabolicjosh]

My defenses are that i let you kill me.

I currently cant remember what spell but there is a spell that lets you prepare other spells for when you die. And you cant use them until you die.

So i bring myself back to life.
I divine my old body which you are standing on for 30 mins.
I limited wish for my next attack to hit.
I Greater teleport outside of your antimagic field.
Then i hit with a super spell of death combo. For 19000 points of damage.
I used 10% of my reasorces.
Don't forget that if i don't find your soul i know to kill any ways for you to come back.

Then i go to hell steal your soul and drink you! Buahahahahha hahahaaa...

[Augmental]

Right.

"Right"? It doesn't matter how much HP you have or how much damage you do, if you're surrounded on all sides by dozens of Solars, you're doomed.

[metabolicjosh]

I didn't even think of solars. xD

[Anthrowhale]

That's an exalted feat. If you ever commit an evil act you lose your exalted feats. I hope whatever Wizard you're trying to murder is evil.


Being good is advantageous in two ways.
(1) It keeps the fiendish grafts from making you do evil acts.
(2) It puts all the Initiates of Mystra on your side by default.



Wizards don't need high initiative. Wizards are Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise (and then Polymorphed back into their normal form so they look normal but have the Dire Tortoise (Su) abilities) so they always get a free surprise round against you.


This is a matter of adjudication since foresight forbids surprise.



Familiar(s) have Celerity and Dimension Door given by Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, so it can teleport it plus

Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability does seem pretty effective.



There are many ways to block antimagic beyond tinfoil hats. Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil wards act as Prismatic Walls and block antimagic.


It "duplicate(s) the layers" but not the spell, so this seems like a judgement call.



Invoke Magic works in antimagic.


Not many wizards could make a concentration check of >100 required to cast this.



Theurging and other classes with access to the Cleric list allow Initiate of Mystra without spending three levels in Cleric.


This is incorrect. It says "cleric level 3rd" in the requirements.



Any astral projector worth the name has contingent spells not only on their Astral Projection self, but also on their hibernating self. An automatic Dispel Magic on the hibernating self is a quick way to guarantee a return to body if something is able to adversely affect or delay the projected self.

A timeout based contingency does seem plausibly effective to avoid the infinite time kidnapping.

[Korivan]

In my experience mage killers are well equipped rouges, high powered clerics, and of course, another mage. Everything mentioned in first post can be countered simply enough, but the MAJOR question I have is, how far apart are these two starting. Cause I've found teleport blockers and keeping my distance in the air is a nice way to start off as a mage. And I'f I don't care about what the opponent has, there is Dysjunction, then dysjunction, then dysjunction again. Then, twin spell avasculate+quicken twin spell avasculate (prc's and feats to make that possible), then even 1,000 hp is reduced to 65-70hp then power word kill. Depending on how many dysjunctions you really want to use, I've gotten this off on turn 1, or 2 maybe. As for craft contingent spell, a wizard can only have one at a time. So unless you pay for multiple wizards to use this (assuming you find one that has the feat and relavent spells), I'm not worried.

Also, what class was this mage killer. Please tell me its not just a scout/fighter with the mage killer feats. That's good against monster manual class wizards (monster manual class is a term we refer to as "average"), but not PC's.

Also, how is your initative beyond 60. Cause I've seen this before and closer look at the character shows that many of the bonuses didn't stack. To be honest, my wizards will have between 12-30+ intitiative bonus and thats usually more then enough.

[Anthrowhale]

What happens if I take a Blood line, use a thought bottle to offset the XP costs, and use the increased max rank available to simply qualify for Epic Spellcasting pre-epic? IIRC, their are ways to become immune to AMF, be invisible to any pre-epic detection method, and be immune to all pre-epic spells with absurdly low Spellcraft checks (and, therefore, cost).


That seems valid. I generally regard thought bottles or anything else giving (essentially) free wishes as too broken to worry about.


Quick make me a fighter that does as much damage as you can in one round without Lion Spirit Barbarian or Any form of Power attack.


Note the power attack in this build is purely for a feat tax rather than actual use.


[citation needed]

No citation. But if you rule the otherway, contingency can be used as a low bandwidth divination spell that defeats mindblank.

[Augmental]

No citation. But if you rule the otherway, contingency can be used as a low bandwidth divination spell that defeats mindblank.

So you're ruling your way because it's more advantageous to your build? How do you use contingency as a divination spell, anyway? :smallconfused:

Also, what's your build's solution to chain gating?

[metabolicjosh]

I rule that contingencies know what you know and a little more. Like if you die.

[metabolicjosh]

I rule that contingencies know what you know and a little more. Like if you die.

Oops double please remove

[dextercorvia]

The main problem with the tin-foil hat trick, is not some imagined amputation, or physics giving you an extra action beyond the turn system. It is that, since the wizard is flying, the expanded hat doesn't block LoE.

@Anthrowhale: I didn't pore over your build, but how are you planning on moving adjacent, activating the torc, and then grappling your opponent during the same turn? Isn't the torc a standard action to activate?

[Kazyan]

Someone creates a TO monstrosity that's designed to beat a Wizard without being a caster, and the playground mads itself into the stratosphere.

There needs to be YouTube dramatic readings of this thread.

[Snowbluff]

Someone creates a TO monstrosity that's designed to beat a Wizard without being a caster, and the playground mads itself into the stratosphere.

There needs to be YouTube dramatic readings of this thread.

Nah, the only way this build can get better is if we complain about it. Also, your dramatic reading will have a hard time thanks to our erudite forum members and arguments.

[Snowbluff]

Someone creates a TO monstrosity that's designed to beat a Wizard without being a caster, and the playground mads itself into the stratosphere.

There needs to be YouTube dramatic readings of this thread.

Nah, the only way this build can get better is if we complain about it. Also, your dramatic reading will have a hard time thanks to our erudite forum members and arguments.

[Anthrowhale]

My defenses are that i let you kill me.


That's a good start, but no credit for that-spell-I-can't-remember and that-other-spell-I-can't-remember.


"Right"? It doesn't matter how much HP you have or how much damage you do, if you're surrounded on all sides by dozens of Solars, you're doomed.

The original post listed as a vulnerability unbounded power exploits. Feel free to enumerate a bunch more if you want, but the interest value is low.


how far apart are these two starting


105' is a good distance, just outside of mindsight.



And I'f I don't care about what the opponent has, there is Dysjunction, then dysjunction, then dysjunction again.


There are few builds less vulnerable to disjunction than this one.



Then, twin spell avasculate+quicken twin spell avasculate (prc's and feats to make that possible), then even 1,000 hp is reduced to 65-70hp then power word kill.


Lots of misses here. Avasculate requires a ranged touch attack.



Also, what class was this mage killer.


Feel free to read the original post.



Also, how is your initative beyond 60. Cause I've seen this before and closer look at the character shows that many of the bonuses didn't stack.


+20(Dex)+4(Imp init)+13(Iajutsu Master 2)+1(Swordsage 1)+2(Belt of battle, competence)+25(Moment of Prescience, Insight)+2(Sandals of Vagabond, Luck)



To be honest, my wizards will have between 12-30+ intitiative bonus and thats usually more then enough.

Yeah, I was hoping the wizards would stop optimizing after they autobeat all the monsters.

[dextercorvia]

If Moment of Prescience is ruled to work then, the caster has an easier time getting it. I'd drop that, and rule it a wash.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I was hoping the wizards would stop optimizing after they autobeat all the monsters.

Well they would have, except a bunch of people who call themselves "mage killers" that didn't take more than 2 levels in anything ("Her saves are really good" -DnD PSAs) showed up and killed a couple of them. They're all paranoid delusional jerks with nothing better to do than learn how to kill everything.

Also, does this build have spell resistance or Mettle (Mettle would help a lot)?

Also, the spellcaster equivalent of your high saves is bloodline + dip a huge number of prestige classes. Each bloodline level can potentially add 1 CL per PrC. It's dumb. Also, your Will save will be really high!

Also, Irresistible Spell removes the save from a spell. It was errataed, I believe, but not every uses errata.

[Augmental]

The original post listed as a vulnerability unbounded power exploits. Feel free to enumerate a bunch more if you want, but the interest value is low.

That's kind of a big weakness when you're talking about TO.


Well they would have, except a bunch of people who call themselves "mage killers" that didn't take more than 2 levels in anything

Hey, let's be fair now. He did take 5 levels in two of his classes. Sure, it's two of his classes out of twelve, and the rest are all 1-level dips, but still...

[Anthrowhale]

So you're ruling your way because it's more advantageous to your build?

I'd say it's because the scope of triggers is undefined and I don't think there was any intention for it to function as a divination.



How do you use contingency as a divination spell, anyway? :smallconfused:


Contingent Resistance triggered by [bit to be determined] coupled with detect magic to see if it goes off. It would be like 20 questions, with 20 replaced by the number of contingencies you can cast in a day.



Also, what's your build's solution to chain gating?


Boredom. I generally assume that all unbounded power exploits get nerfed by all sane DMs.


The main problem with the tin-foil hat trick, is not some imagined amputation, or physics giving you an extra action beyond the turn system. It is that, since the wizard is flying, the expanded hat doesn't block LoE.


Note: extra action not required. But yes, flying+tin-foil hats = fun times.



@Anthrowhale: I didn't pore over your build, but how are you planning on moving adjacent, activating the torc, and then grappling your opponent during the same turn? Isn't the torc a standard action to activate?

It's not listed. I was assuming swift like the Torcs in MIC.

[Roguenewb]

Nothing I know of in any universe beats flowing time x1,000,000,000,000,000,000 demiplane. You can *never* defeat me. Look at the text of Astral Projection "The spell lasts until you desire to end it". Do you know how long desiring takes? As far as I can see by RAW it's a faster-than-free action. It's not even dismissing. Hell, if you find a way to prove that "desiring" is an action, then I'll just start desiring *again* as another free action. Hell, I'll queue it up a trillion times. And thanks to foresight, I cannot be "surprised", Dire tortoise shapechange is just gravy.

If you try to insist that "desiring to end the spell" is dismissing it, you better never let me get a standard action (that provokes no AoOs, btw). Look at all the ways people have posted for me to get away long enough to get a single standard action.

Now, I've ended by projection (by desire), and I have an infinite number of lifetimes to plan my defeat of you (did I mention necropolitan? Technically I can just wait in my plane until I pick up the evolved undead template a trillion times, is that worth it? Why the hell not you wannabe mage-slayer). What to do first? Well, here's the fun part, I have a ton of options, below, find my two favorites.

1.) The infinite hoard. In my infinite lifetimes, I planar bind everything in the multiverse with 18 or less HD that is an outsider or an elemental, then I have them craft a contingent greater plane shifts on each of them (thanks solars and psy-reform!). How many of these creatures are there in the multiverse? I have no idea. But even dieties can't stop me, because this all happens in less than microsecond on their planes, and their SLAs still take a standard action to activate. Then, you have to fight every single one of these creatures. Can you do it? Don't dare say you can. You'll starve to death in the middle of the fight before you can.

2.) Time-stop frost rays of infinite death. (This one's fun!) In my plane, I cast time stop. Inside the time stop (maximized by rod granted by genies), I greater plane shift next to you (time is still stopped) and cast a delayed disjunction on you, I time these all right so they go off after the time stop ends, then I plane shift home. Then, when the Time Stop ends, the spells trigger (fun fact, the delays are still waiting). Next, I wait your entire lifetime in my shell (cause your a damn melee player). Then do it again, an infinite number of times. Next I go through the entire time loop again, and set an infinite delayed dimensional anchor for you too. Then set up an finite number of delayed ray of frosts. Now, I summon component up a flower of infinite age. Then I teleport through time to the place of your birth and kill you. Why? Insurance. Then I do that again, to everyone in your family tree back to the creation of mankind. Feeling defeated yet? Then I return to where time passes, and an infinite disjunctions strip everything magic from you. Then infinite locks keep you in place, while you die to infinite ray of frosts (assuming causality hasn't ended you anyway)

Now, wizards can be beat (an archivist or artificier can do the above tricks as well) but not by you dagger-boy.

[Korivan]

80 AC still isn't hard to hit

Also, initiative rolls while great, can be made irrelavent.

Love antimagic, surround myself with it with all my mages

Overall, great build. Overly complicated, but nice. I have a friend that will often compete build ideas with. We've gone on way too many debates for hours going over too many classes. I'll ask him for his wizard slayer for you, it was less complicated, accomplished about the same. But most importantly, required far less, thus making it more likely to work.

Sorry to come off defensivly on casters, not my intent.

One more question that I can't figure out. How exactly does the craft contingent spell interrupt/stop victory. Yes, you can use it for clerity (and so could the mage), but whats the actual kill combo that lets you kill them before their turn. Also, beyond antimagic, what debuffers do you have that get past spells like absorbtion, spellblade (dispel/greater dispel magic), antimagic? Also, look into ways to deal damage/kill/win that do not deal with the following:
magic, weapons. That was the key for my friend to get past, and man I didn't see it coming.

[Randomguy]

12 attacks, each a thrown dagger from short range. 4 come from BAB 16, 2 from Arrow Storm, and the attacks are doubled via Palm Throw. The damage is about 168 in expectation, which 136 (IF) + 20 (shadow blade) + 7 (sneak attack) + change. Proximity is for AMF + Mage Slayer feat.
[quote]

Thanks. Do you have any way to defend against wind effects, other than AMF?

[QUOTE]Whether it's reasonable or not, a 3 level feat tax is pretty heavy for a wizard and something that I rarely see paid.
It's mostly a TO trick, and not really worth getting unless you're going to be in a high op, high cheese game where AMF is common. But this is a TO thread, so I don't think it's too out of place.


Again, AMF is off at the beginning.
What, what? So on your first round, you walk up to the wizard and activate AMF. Then what? You can't use your belt of battle, since you're in an AMF.The wizard just needs to withdraw, and then cast a quickened teleport or dimension door, even without Initiate of Mystra. And since the wizard is faster than you are, the wizard just needs to stay away until the torc stop working, and can then start pelting you with spells.



The theory is that the wizard doesn't start out running away. Whether or not that's a reasonable theory depends on context.
There's a difference between running away and staying out of dicing distance. Spells tend to have a longer range than melee attacks, and




+75 mostly works for one hit, but there are enough HP to take a hit.

Edit: I realized that MoP and True strike don't stack. You're back to not hitting.
[\QUOTE]
Good point. The only thing that I can think of is Sure Strike (phb2, think true strike but +1/3 caster levels) cast at a caster level of 126 somehow, but I don't know how to actually pull that off. Other than that, the only thing that even boosts attack rolls at all that I know of is Bite of the Wererat, for +6 dex, which is +3 to ranged touch attacks. Anyone have any ideas?


[QUOTE]10d6 doesn't look that bad? I agree that you can scratch the build.

Metamagic, my dear friend. Since we've already got cleric levels that opens up Dweomerkeeper. 10 levels of that is a -1 to all metamagic feats. Add on Arcane thesis (flesh to salt) and maybe Metamagic School focus (or another metamagic reducer).

Flesh to salt is level 5, +2 for Twin spell, +0 for empower spell, +1 for maximize makes it 8th level, and it would do 155 average damage, and would make it 8th level. Oh, and you can boost the damage even more: Snowcasting lets you apply Energy Admixture (another +2, down to +1 thanks to school focus, making it 9th level), since the spell now has the cold descriptor. And that would double the entire thing to 465 damage. (Admix in fire damage and add on searing spell (+0), so it still works against fire immunity). And then cast it again, quickened (+2) but twinned via residual metamagic (-2).

And since this doesn't require a touch attack, you don't need the crazy dex from LeShay, you can be shapechanged into a Chronotyrn, and do the same thing again. So that's 1860 damage in one round. You're dead, even if you've got fire immunity.

It's a tad feat heavy, but using Lord Tippy's Planar Emmigration trick you can get all metamagic feats onto your spells automatically, without increasing spell level, so you'd only need a couple of feats and it would just be 4 fifth level spells. Even without it, you can bring down the spell cost some more using a Rod of Maximize.

Oh, and 10d6 no save is just as good against you as 20d6 save half.

Oh, big, but easily fixable, flaw in your build: You have no freedom of movement. Solid fog (or freezing or acid fog) around your general area and you're kind of stuck while the wizard pelts you with spells. Just get a ring of it.

[dextercorvia]

It's not listed. I was assuming swift like the Torcs in MIC.

There is a rule for that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord) Unless it says otherwise, it is Standard to activate. I don't have Underdark to check, but I'm reasonably certain that has been mentioned as one of the weaknesses of the Torc in the past.

As to your tactics. I am shapechanged into a Chronotyryn with my own Contengent Celerity (possibly 21 of them depending on how cheesy I feel, each triggered off of a different word.). That means I can, if necessary use celerity up to 23 times before you can activate your torc. What is your answer to that?

Edit: Add to Randomguy's Metamagic, Reserves of Strength. What cap?

[Korivan]

There is a rule for that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord) Unless it says otherwise, it is Standard to activate. I don't have Underdark to check, but I'm reasonably certain that has been mentioned as one of the weaknesses of the Torc in the past.

As to your tactics. I am shapechanged into a Chronotyryn with my own Contengent Celerity (possibly 21 of them depending on how cheesy I feel, each triggered off of a different word.). That means I can, if necessary use celerity up to 23 times before you can activate your torc. What is your answer to that?

Edit: Add to Randomguy's Metamagic, Reserves of Strength. What cap?

Unless I'm mistaken, on everyones account, you can only perform 1 immediate action in a round. Makes a difference.

[dextercorvia]

Unless I'm mistaken, on everyones account, you can only perform 1 immediate action in a round. Makes a difference.

Contingency can trigger on talking which is a free action that you can take out of turn.

Chronotyryn's get double actions, which means up to two immediate actions per turn.

[Korivan]

gonna have to look that creature up. sounds....nice :smallamused:

[Kazyan]

Oh and i can use my spell in AMF because I have Initiate of Mystria.


I can cast any level 9 spell in a level 0 spell slot.


Wizards are Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise (and then Polymorphed back into their normal form so they look normal but have the Dire Tortoise (Su) abilities) so they always get a free surprise round against you.


What happens if I take a Blood line, use a thought bottle to offset the XP costs, and use the increased max rank available to simply qualify for Epic Spellcasting pre-epic?


It doesn't matter how much HP you have or how much damage you do, if you're surrounded on all sides by dozens of Solars, you're doomed.


Nothing I know of in any universe beats flowing time x1,000,000,000,000,000,000 demiplane.


Since we've already got cleric levels that opens up Dweomerkeeper.

...Lord Tippy's Planar Emmigration trick...


I am shapechanged into a Chronotyryn with my own Contengent Celerity (possibly 21 of them depending on how cheesy I feel, each triggered off of a different word.).
If you can't beat every wizard, you can't beat any wizard.

[Anthrowhale]

If Moment of Prescience is ruled to work then, the caster has an easier time getting it. I'd drop that, and rule it a wash.

I'm not familiar with the argument that MoP doesn't work for initiative. My understanding is that PH explicitly calls initiative a dex check and explicitly states that MoP works for ability checks.



Also, does this build have spell resistance or Mettle (Mettle would help a lot)?


AMF is generally stronger than spell resistance. No Mettle, but high saves + high AC + high HP + (sometimes) AMF is yet to be beaten. The only source of (Ex) Mettle that I know of is the Hexblade and it requires 3 levels, which is very expensive.



Also, the spellcaster equivalent of your high saves is bloodline + dip a huge number of prestige classes. Each bloodline level can potentially add 1 CL per PrC. It's dumb. Also, your Will save will be really high!


Also, the feat tax will kill the build. Wizards can't generally do the "many, many classes" approach like a fighter can.


Nothing I know of in any universe beats flowing time x1,000,000,000,000,000,000 demiplane.

I wish there was someway people could get all the unbounded power exploits out of their system so that a more interesting discussion could occur.



Look at the text of Astral Projection "The spell lasts until you desire to end it". Do you know how long desiring takes?


The general idea with the build is that the wizard gets no actions not in an AMF. And, in an AMF, an astral projection gets no actions at all. Foresight + a free action ending of Astral Travel would avoid this, but running away the first time someone approaches you is rather disruptive to whatever activity the wizard is engaged in.


80 AC still isn't hard to hit


In generic, yes. In this circumstance it's unclear whether you can hit often enough and hard enough.



I'll ask him for his wizard slayer for you, it was less complicated, accomplished about the same.


I'd be happy to see.



but whats the actual kill combo that lets you kill them before their turn.


There are two choices. A standard action palm throw in an AMF finishes off most wizards in the first round. The alternative is to use thicket of blades to confine them to the AMF for another round, and then wipe them out with a full attack.



Also, beyond antimagic, what debuffers do you have that get past spells like absorbtion, spellblade (dispel/greater dispel magic), antimagic?


I don't track the relevancy.

[dextercorvia]

If you can't beat every wizard, you can't beat any wizard.

Most of the tactics presented for a wizard so far aren't mutually exclusive. That said, I wouldn't bother with three levels of Cleric and IoM, since it isn't as good as folks think, and there are other answers that I can get without losing casting levels. I'd rather have Incantatrix than Dweomerkeeper, except in certain corner cases.


I'm not familiar with the argument that MoP doesn't work for initiative. My understanding is that PH explicitly calls initiative a dex check and explicitly states that MoP works for ability checks.


It is a dex check, but it isn't an opposed check, since there is no success or failure.

My point was, even if you get it ruled the other way, the Wizard get's it, too, and easier. So, I wouldn't bother putting it in the equation.

I'd be willing to put together a little something, if you wanted to try your build out. I'd post it first, and we could go through a round of tweaks, just so all the cards would be on the table. It's only fair, since you've posted yours.

I say this without having read through the specifics of your build, only that you intend to AMF grapple a wizard to death with Mage Slayer.

[Korivan]

If you can't beat every wizard, you can't beat any wizard.

Also add,
wraithform and mystic shield (immunity to all forms of physical damage including magic weapons)
Energy immunity (and its other incarnations, immunity to energy damage)
mindblank (immunity to you know what)
spell-turning/absorbtion/antimagic field (immunity to magic)
initiate of mystra (immunity to antimagic)
Doublethink readied action counterspell (stop dysjunction)
quarterstaff or double-bladed long sword +1/+1 spellblade on both (immunity from dispel/greater dispel magic)
ring spell battle (helps stop rouges with cheesy UMD scrolls)

minimal prep, add a dozen more that will last weeks/months/year granting immunities to a dozen things and you can beat up the Tarsqu with your quarterstaff, solo. And just about anything else anyone can muster.

[Korivan]

In generic, yes. In this circumstance it's unclear whether you can hit often enough and hard enough.



I'd be happy to see.



I don't track the relevancy.


Its not about hitting hard, its hitting right, avasculate's only save is to prevent stun, not the hp loss. Once its down, power words (no need to hit)

It'll be difficult, he's in californa now

The relevancy is that without debuffers, defensive spells make weapons incapable to harm.

[Kazyan]

Most of the tactics presented for a wizard so far aren't mutually exclusive. That said, I wouldn't bother with three levels of Cleric and IoM, since it isn't as good as folks think, and there are other answers that I can get without losing casting levels. I'd rather have Incantatrix than Dweomerkeeper, except in certain corner cases.

True. The point is that the build does not have to account for every corner case under the sun to be considered cometent and smiting wizards.

Okay, the actual point is that I like to MST optimization debates. Example:


Also add,
wraithform and mystic shield (immunity to all forms of physical damage including magic weapons)
Energy immunity (and its other incarnations, immunity to energy damage)
mindblank (immunity to you know what)
spell-turning/absorbtion/antimagic field (immunity to magic)
initiate of mystra (immunity to antimagic)
Doublethink readied action counterspell (stop dysjunction)
quarterstaff or double-bladed long sword +1/+1 spellblade on both (immunity from dispel/greater dispel magic)
ring spell battle (helps stop rouges with cheesy UMD scrolls)

minimal prep, add a dozen more that will last weeks/months/year granting immunities to a dozen things and you can beat up the Tarsqu with your quarterstaff, solo. And just about anything else anyone can muster.

Another part of that list of things every Competent™ wizard has.

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks. Do you have any way to defend against wind effects, other than AMF?


No.



What, what? So on your first round, you walk up to the wizard and activate AMF. Then what? You can't use your belt of battle, since you're in an AMF.The wizard just needs to withdraw,


Thicket of Blades + Stand Still + Iajutsu Focus = not gonig anywhere.



There's a difference between running away and staying out of dicing distance.


The flat playing field with infinite altitude is easy, but I could imagine other settings where sneaking around can net 105' range.



And that would double the entire thing to 465 damage.


155*2 = 310, right? How do you get 465?



And since this doesn't require a touch attack, you don't need the crazy dex from LeShay, you can be shapechanged into a Chronotyrn, and do the same thing again. So that's 1860 damage in one round.


I get 1240, which is still adequate unless the AMF is up.



It's a tad feat heavy, but using Lord Tippy's Planar Emmigration trick


A pointer?



Oh, and 10d6 no save is just as good against you as 20d6 save half.


Not if it's Refl.



Oh, big, but easily fixable, flaw in your build: You have no freedom of movement. Solid fog (or freezing or acid fog) around your general area and you're kind of stuck while the wizard pelts you with spells. Just get a ring of it.

AMF deals with this also. The only strong reason to not have AMF on all the time is for scouting & initiative reasons.


There is a rule for that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord) Unless it says otherwise, it is Standard to activate. I don't have Underdark to check, but I'm reasonably certain that has been mentioned as one of the weaknesses of the Torc in the past.


If that's so, the belt of battle still allows conversion of a swift action into a standard action.



As to your tactics. I am shapechanged into a Chronotyryn with my own Contengent Celerity (possibly 21 of them depending on how cheesy I feel, each triggered off of a different word.). That means I can, if necessary use celerity up to 23 times before you can activate your torc. What is your answer to that?


How do you plan to beat the daze?



Edit: Add to Randomguy's Metamagic, Reserves of Strength. What cap?

I think +3d6 is the most that's reasonable here.

[dextercorvia]

Some issues with your build:

Embrace the Dark Chaos and Exalted feats are not exactly compatible. Same with Sandwich tricking a LeShay. How do you plan to beat its SR?

You are relying on Custom magic items? Seriously? And how do you get a custom 1/day item of Contingent: Celerity? That just doesn't make sense. At least have the decency to use Partially Charged Wands.

[dextercorvia]

How do you plan to beat the daze?

Persistent Favor of the Martyr, cast through Miracle if need be.



I think +3d6 is the most that's reasonable here.

You are using the Sandwich trick and want to talk about reasonable? RAW it removes the cap.

Edit: I think its funny that your Antimagic Torc is defeated by a level 2 Silence spell.

[Kazyan]

A pointer?

Summary: Use Genesis to make a Demiplane of Hax Magic, with the Enhanced Magic trait, dialed up to 11 so that it applies whichever metamagics you want. When you need the feats applied to a spell, cast Planar Bubble (Demiplane of Hax Magic) and then do your thing.

[kardar233]

If he tried hard enough, a Wizard could make himself immune to damage in a manner not subject to AMF. Your damage is purely physical and slashing, so by Sandwich Tricking into a Half-Clay Golem Half-Black Dragon War Troll (or something up the ladder towards the Emerald Legion) he could completely neutralize your damage.

Similarly, any Persistomancer who dips for IoM can keep an immunity-to-damage buffset going (like Delay Death/Beastland Ferocity), meaning that you don't have a way to kill them.

An Archivist or Cleric doesn't even need to dip for IoM, and they have better Persisting capabilities. I've got a build somewhere around here that uses Spelldancer/DMM to get all his buffs running while inside his own AMF, and you wouldn't be able to do anything to that (unless you boosted the Torc's CL high enough to beat his Spellcraft check somehow).

[Cruiser1]

This is incorrect. It says "cleric level 3rd" in the requirements.
Indeed it does, however you didn't consider later source books. :smallsmile: Dragon Magic page 15 supplements Initiate feats by saying, "Any character of a class that must select a deity and that uses the Cleric spell list for spellcasting can treat his level in that class as if it were a Cleric level for the purpose of qualifying for an Initiate feat." For example, a 3rd level Favored Soul can also select Initiate of Mystra. I've read optimization threads suggesting that even the full arcane progressing PrC Rainbow Servant qualifies you, since it expands your spell list to include the Cleric list. However that particular PrC doesn't seem to work, since Rainbow Servant doesn't require you to have a patron deity.

[ahenobarbi]

No, just a default to sanity in the presence of lack of rules. The entire cone hat thing is of this flavor as there aren't rules as far as I can tell.

Basic sanity says it will expand keeping not up, not down but keeping center of it's mass where it was. Which makes it easy for wizard (having superhuman intelligence) to design it to safely protect him/her/it from AMF (if ([s]he|it) is standing on some surface).

Also there are other methods of dealing with AMF:

Contingency / contingent spell. Worded depending on how triggers work (and yes, those super-humanly intelligent paranoid guys know exactly how they work). "If a creature capable of suppressing my magic approaches closer than # ft", "If hostile creature approaches closer than # ft", "If creature approaches closer than # ft and I did not point at it saying <allowed> just before that", ...
Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell for critical buffs / protections.
Getting critical buffs/protections from your minions as supernatural effects.
Invoke magic (hmm do swift action spells provoke AoOs?) + Teleport (this will work only for wizards who can survive AoO[s] and pass concentration check).
Wizard can just tumble away from your AMF, without provoking AoOs.
Astral Projection + something to shut it down if projection is suppressed (contingencies on the real body, custom magic items, minions, desiring).
Initiate of Mystra + spell not provoking AoO.


Any competent high-level wizard will be able to do at least one of those.


This seems likely to trigger way to often? In any case, it's a rather lonely existence.

I elaborated a bit more above.


Being good is advantageous in two ways.
(...)
(2) It puts all the Initiates of Mystra on your side by default.

Read dogma of Mystra again :smallbiggrin: they will most likely hunt you.


Someone creates a TO monstrosity that's designed to beat a Wizard without being a caster, and the playground mads itself into the stratosphere.

I got impression thread posting rate was rather slow :smallannoyed:


Boredom. I generally assume that all unbounded power exploits get nerfed by all sane DMs.

I guess your build would "get nerfed by all sane DMs".

[dextercorvia]

Similarly, any Persistomancer who dips for IoM can keep an immunity-to-damage buffset going (like Delay Death/Beastland Ferocity), meaning that you don't have a way to kill them.


IoM does not protect your buffs from entering another AMF later, they would still be suppressed, regardless of the CL.

[Lostbutseeking]

The wizard is flying around in a Sculpted, Widened, Persisted, Extraordinary Spell Aimed AMF.

You can no longer suppress his defenses, whatever they may be with your item of AMF.

[dextercorvia]

The wizard is flying around in a Sculpted, Widened, Persisted, Extraordinary Spell Aimed AMF.

You can no longer suppress his defenses, whatever they may be with your item of AMF.

AMFs have no effect on one another. He could still activate his Torc before getting close. Then his AMF would suppress the other buffs, but the Wizard would get more warning. That is the main benefit to an IoM or similar AMF build. He can't activate his item, while adjacent. Of course, I don't think he's proven his prima facie case that he can get adjacent and activate his item without being pwn'd by any number of classic wizard defenses/responses.

[Boci]

Another part of that list of things every Competent™ wizard has.

One wizard may not have them all, but any one wizard has the potential for all of them. So wouldn't a mage slayer need to be able to bypass them?

[metabolicjosh]

see his anti magic field comes from a item. So when he walks within 10 feet of me his item won't work because he triggers it adjacent to me. IE 5 feet away

[dextercorvia]

see his anti magic field comes from a item. So when he walks within 10 feet of me his item won't work because he triggers it adjacent to me. IE 5 feet away

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he would adjust his tactics vs someone already in an AMF. That's why I mentioned that he could still activate then approach.

[Lostbutseeking]

AMFs have no effect on one another. He could still activate his Torc before getting close. Then his AMF would suppress the other buffs, but the Wizard would get more warning. That is the main benefit to an IoM or similar AMF build. He can't activate his item, while adjacent. Of course, I don't think he's proven his prima facie case that he can get adjacent and activate his item without being pwn'd by any number of classic wizard defenses/responses.

As soon as he is within 40 feet his item of AMF is suppressed. AMF is an emanation, when it's source is supressed it ends.

[Garwain]

Drawing a dagger and throwing it, makes it a ranged weapon, not eligible for Iaijitsu focus. You could throw it as a melee weapon, just as you can throw a sword, but then you'd suffer all kinds of penalties, not to mention the juicy feats from master thrower that are no longer valid.

[dextercorvia]

As soon as he is within 40 feet his item of AMF is suppressed. AMF is an emanation, when it's source is supressed it ends.

That is going to depend very much on the exact wording of the Torc, which I don't have. I'm assuming that since the Torc's generated AMF is not suppressed by the Torc being inside said AMF, that another AMF won't be able to suppress the AMF by suppressing the Torc either.

If there is any text to the contrary, please let me know, because that makes this trivial.

[Boci]

That is going to depend very much on the exact wording of the Torc, which I don't have. I'm assuming that since the Torc's generated AMF is not suppressed by the Torc being inside said AMF, that another AMF won't be able to suppress the AMF by suppressing the Torc either.

If there is any text to the contrary, please let me know, because that makes this trivial.

Exact text: By speaking a command word, the wearer of this necklace can create an antimagic field, as the spell, centered on himself. This function is usable once per day.

[Anthrowhale]

It is a dex check, but it isn't an opposed check, since there is no success or failure.


I had missed that. It does seem a valid objection.



I'd be willing to put together a little something, if you wanted to try your build out. I'd post it first, and we could go through a round of tweaks, just so all the cards would be on the table. It's only fair, since you've posted yours.


That could be fun. A concrete proposal is more compelling than shadowboxing all hypotheticals


Its not about hitting hard, its hitting right, avasculate's only save is to prevent stun, not the hp loss.


Except for the part about not hitting.



The relevancy is that without debuffers, defensive spells make weapons incapable to harm.

AMF is always on before the melee attack.



Embrace the Dark Chaos and Exalted feats are not exactly compatible.


They don't appear incompatible. No alignment change occurs, and the direction is towards chaos rather than evil.



Same with Sandwich tricking a LeShay. How do you plan to beat its SR?


Ask nicely. It is a service that the LeShay can perform inside of a 25 round duration after a gate.



You are relying on Custom magic items? Seriously? And how do you get a custom 1/day item of Contingent: Celerity? That just doesn't make sense. At least have the decency to use Partially Charged Wands.

I couldn't figure out a way to compete with wizard initiative without them. A significant fraction of wealth-by-level is going into those items. Why does 1/day Contingent: Celerity not make sense?


Persistent Favor of the Martyr, cast through Miracle if need be.


Can we avoid using Miracles? Unbounded Miracle use is only slightly less powerful than unbounded wish.

Celerity letting the wizard go first seems allowed, but Celerity allowing the wizard go first 21 times trips my unbounded power sensor. Similarly, RKV should only be allowed to pick up 1 additional swift action.



You are using the Sandwich trick and want to talk about reasonable? RAW it removes the cap.


Unintended consequences without unbounded power seems reasonable to exploit.



Edit: I think its funny that your Antimagic Torc is defeated by a level 2 Silence spell.

Iron Heart Surge.


When you need the feats applied to a spell, cast Planar Bubble (Demiplane of Hax Magic) and then do your thing.

How do you become native?


If he tried hard enough, a Wizard could make himself immune to damage in a manner not subject to AMF. Your damage is purely physical and slashing, so by Sandwich Tricking into a Half-Clay Golem Half-Black Dragon War Troll (or something up the ladder towards the Emerald Legion) he could completely neutralize your damage.


This does seem valid.



Similarly, any Persistomancer who dips for IoM can keep an immunity-to-damage buffset going (like Delay Death/Beastland Ferocity), meaning that you don't have a way to kill them.


I'm aware of persistomancer + IoM.


For example, a 3rd level Favored Soul can also select Initiate of Mystra.


Doesn't help with level loss.


Basic sanity says it will expand keeping not up, not down but keeping center of it's mass where it was. Which makes it easy for wizard (having superhuman intelligence) to design it to safely protect him/her/it from AMF (if ([s]he|it) is standing on some surface).


That's a rather tall cone, some of which wouldn't be in the AMF.



"If a creature capable of suppressing my magic approaches closer than # ft"


Fails, creature is incapable. Magic item is.



"If hostile creature approaches closer than # ft"


Attempts to use contingency as a divination should fail (see earlier discussion).



"If creature approaches closer than # ft and I did not point at it saying <allowed> just before that", ...


This might work, but it's super annoying with insects.



Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell for critical buffs / protections.


Fails---(Su) is suppressed.



Invoke magic (hmm do swift action spells provoke AoOs?) + Teleport (this will work only for wizards who can survive AoO[s] and pass concentration check).


A concentration check > 100 in an AMF seems rather difficult to pass.



Wizard can just tumble away from your AMF, without provoking AoOs.


Requires adjudication on Thicket of Blades vs. Tumble. Both are exceptions to the rules.



Astral Projection + something to shut it down if projection is suppressed (contingencies on the real body, custom magic items, minions, desiring).


Contingent (suppression) shutdown seems nonviable for cross-planar divination reasons. Desiring is an action. For the others, not enough information.



Initiate of Mystra + spell not provoking AoO.


Plausible, but the specific choice is necessary.



I guess your build would "get nerfed by all sane DMs".


Likely true, but there are different levels of insanity.


IoM does not protect your buffs from entering another AMF later, they would still be suppressed, regardless of the CL.

You made this claim elsewhere, but I didn't understand it. There are 3 interpretations of IoM I've heard now.

(1) The cast spell takes the normal effect (i.e. suppressed until the AMF goes away).
(2) The cast spell takes the normal effect (i.e. it functions, in the AMF, but not when a new AMF comes along).
(3) The cast spell takes the normal effect (i.e. it functions in all AMFs).

Why is (2) the right answer?


The wizard is flying around in a Sculpted, Widened, Persisted, Extraordinary Spell Aimed AMF.


As Dextercorvia suggests. Really, there is little reason to not use AMF after the action starts.

[Randomguy]

Thicket of Blades + Stand Still + Iajutsu Focus = not gonig anywhere.


Well played.




155*2 = 310, right? How do you get 465?

Not a clue. I think I just had a calculator misshap and punched in the wrong number somewhere.


A pointer?
What Kazyan said, but the real trick is you craft a construct or make a permanant animated object or something in the plane of Hax Magic, and cast Planar Bubble on the object, since you can't choose which plane the bubble emulates, it has to be the native plane.



Not if it's Refl.
In which case 10d6 no save is even better than 20d6 save half.



AMF deals with this also. The only strong reason to not have AMF on all the time is for scouting & initiative reasons.
Oh, I see now. At first I thought Solid Fog wouldn't be suppressed since it was a conjuration, but now I see that only Instantaneous conjurations aren't suppressed.

Doesn't the AMF from the torc only last for 10 minutes, though?



How do you plan to beat the daze?
The most common way is time stop right after you win with the celerities.




Edit: Add to Randomguy's Metamagic, Reserves of Strength. What cap?

Flesh to salt is +1d6/ 2 cl, so even with reserves of strength it won't be much higher than 10d6, especially if Initate of Mystra is in play. The exception is with circle magic.

[Flickerdart]

Quick Recovery is a good way around a Daze if you have no other way to do it, but burning a Time Stop round on it does work better if you can manage it.

[Lostbutseeking]

If your using thicket to confine him to your AMF, what stops them using Iron Heart Surge (2 feats or 1 level dip) or any of them Shadow X line (1 feat each or 1 level dip) to break/escape it.

And spells with a cast time of one swift action don't provoke.

[dextercorvia]

Exact text: By speaking a command word, the wearer of this necklace can create an antimagic field, as the spell, centered on himself. This function is usable once per day.

It sounds like an AMF would not suppress this once it was activated then.


That could be fun. A concrete proposal is more compelling than shadowboxing all hypotheticals

You'll need to clean some things up first, as I've mentioned already. But I'm game.



They don't appear incompatible. No alignment change occurs, and the direction is towards chaos rather than evil.

Ask nicely. It is a service that the LeShay can perform inside of a 25 round duration after a gate.


Exalted is so good your eyes bleed. Abyssal Heritor feats have evil fluff, even if you are just borrowing them for a moment. Asking a creature to destroy itself for your benefit, likewise, is just not Exalted.


I couldn't figure out a way to compete with wizard initiative without them. A significant fraction of wealth-by-level is going into those items. [quote]

Rather telling that you need questionable DM intervention to make your build even come close to working.

[QUOTE=Anthrowhale;13839347] Why does 1/day Contingent: Celerity not make sense?

It isn't a single spell. I'm not saying it couldn't be created, but it takes even more DM intervention. Both spells are supposed to be cast at the same time.


Can we avoid using Miracles? Unbounded Miracle use is only slightly less powerful than unbounded wish.

They are not Unbounded. There are a finite number of Miracles that I can cast, and I'm not using them to get more Miracles.


Celerity letting the wizard go first seems allowed, but Celerity allowing the wizard go first 21 times trips my unbounded power sensor. Similarly, RKV should only be allowed to pick up 1 additional swift action.

It has little to do with Miracle, and mostly to do with Craft Contingent Spell, which is RAW. I'm only using Miracle to cast a spell that isn't on my list. That is far more intended than using Magic Jar to permanently make yourself a 50HD creature without paying for those HD.


Unintended consequences without unbounded power seems reasonable to exploit.

You are going to need a better definition of Unbounded. Right now that seems to be anything you think would hurt your build.


Iron Heart Surge.

Thank you for spending your Standard action, only to make it possible to use yet another standard action to do something that might make it easier to hurt me using future action. I forget, which one of us gets multiple standard actions per turn?

And Belt of Battle doesn't cut it anymore, since you've already used your immediate action trying to stop one of my preemptive moves.



You made this claim elsewhere, but I didn't understand it. There are 3 interpretations of IoM I've heard now.

(1) The cast spell takes the normal effect (i.e. suppressed until the AMF goes away).
(2) The cast spell takes the normal effect (i.e. it functions, in the AMF, but not when a new AMF comes along).
(3) The cast spell takes the normal effect (i.e. it functions in all AMFs).

Why is (2) the right answer?


(1) would make the feat have no effect whatsoever, and the feat states that it only works when you are casting the spell within an AMF or DMZ. It doesn't change how the spell interacts with other AMFs, that rules out (3).

[TopCheese]

The basic goal here is to use all legal tricks to optimize a fighter (= beat stick specialist), just to see how optimized it can be. An optimized fighter can play many roles and can survive and overcome many challenges. To achieve that kind of status, the fighter optimization needs to be fairly balanced.

The most extreme challenge for fighter optimization seems to be wizard combat. I'm aware that this rubs the wizard-first crowd the wrong way, but have patience and consider the tactics discussion.

This is a further polishing of the AMF fighter (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251901) build and I'm interested in any improvements or thoughts.

The build:
Beguiler 1/BattleDancer 1/Fighter (Targeteer variant) 1/Monk 1 (Overwhelming Way variant)/Master Thrower 4/Swordsage 1/Master Thrower 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Fist of Raziel 1/Witch Hunter 1/Iajutsu master 5

The starting point is a 32 point buy Venerable Unseelie Fey Magic-Blooded Draconic Human, with a switch to LeShay ending the build

Initiative: 67
AC: 87 Touch AC: 82, Uncanny dodge
HP: 828 Fast Heal 10
Immune: Poison, Disease, Fear
Fort: 42, Refl 48+Evasion, Will 27
Speed 70, Fly 130 (good), Swim 40
Space 5'
Reach 10'
Attack: ~41
Attack Routine with 12 touch attacks (via Targeteer Arrow Swarm)
Damage: ~168/hit (Shadowblade 20, Sneak Attack 7, Iajutsu Focus 136, 2 dagger, 3 Knowledge devotion)
Str 21, Dex 50, Con 36, Int 20, Wis 15, Chr 36

Class features by level:
1) Arcane Spells L2-
1) Trapfinding
2) AC+Chr
3) Arrow Swarm (+2 ranged attacks, all at -5)
4) AC+Wis->AC+Chr
5) Palm Throw
6) Evasion
7) Defensive Throw
9) Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand
10) Weak Spot
11) Thicket of Blades Stance
12) Iron Heart Surge, White raven Tactics
13) Knowledge Devotion
13) Fate Domain: Uncanny Dodge
13) Pride Domain: Reroll first 1 on each save
14) Su Magic Circle Against Evil
15) Kami's Grace: Saves+Chr
16) AC+Int
16) WFinesse(Katana)
17) Init+Chr
20) Strike from the void(+8.25*Chr to Iajutsu damage)

Feats:
1) Precocious Apprentice
1) (human) Able Learner
1) (flaw) Nymph's Kiss
1) (flaw) Point Blank Shot
2) (BDancer) Improved Unarmed Strike
3) Rapid Shot
3) (Targeteer) E/S Force of Personality
3) (Targeteer) E/S Precise Shot
3) (monk) IUS E/S Ascetic Mage
4) (monk) Power Attack
5) (Swordsage) Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand): Dagger and Sai
6) Shadowblade
6) (MThrow) Quickdraw
9) Imp Init
9) (Mthrow) Snatch Arrows E/S Combat Reflexes
10) (Mthrow) Imp Crit (dagger) E/S Servant of the Heavens
10) (Mthrow) Imp Crit (Sai) E/S StandStill
12) Track
15) WF (Katana)
16) WFinesse(Katana)
19) (Iaj. Master) Combat Expertise
18) E/S Imp Combat Expertise

LeShay Bonus Feats:
E/S Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment: Dream Domain
E/S Dark Stalker
E/S Improved Flight
E/S Quick Recovery
E/S Mage Slayer

Here E/S = Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos

As a human with Int 20, Able Learner, and Nymph's kiss, there are many skills: 45 Tumble: Immune to AOO from movement, 10' step instead of 5'
45 Escape Artist + Dex + Easy Escape = get out of grapple
53 Hide: Surprise
51 Move Silently: Surprise
38 Spot: Antisurprise
28 Sense Motive + BAB = Immune Feint
39 Iajutsu Focus = Massive Damage
39 Sleight of Hand + skill tricks = flat-footed opponents. rob as a free action
34 Search = Surprise avoidance
33 Disable Device = disarm magic traps
30 Open Lock = take 10 on amazing locks
27 Balance = flat-footed immunity
15 Concentration = immune AOO for thrown Weapons
+ minimal knowledge, Use Mage, Use Psionic, Diplomacy
+Skill tricks: Sudden Draw, Hidden Blade, Nimble Stand, Acrobatic backstab, Clarity of Vision, Easy Escape, Quick Escape, Collector of Stories

+ all the good L3- Martial Stances & Manuevers.

Grafts: Fast Leg*2, Feathered Wings, Added Tail

Items:
There are several key custom command word 1/day items, including:
Contingent celerity: Interrupt victory
Foresight: no Flat-footed
Moment of Prescience (25th level): Initiative or other actions
Mindblank: Divination Immunity
Water Breathing: Drown Immunity

In addition:
Hathran Mask of TrueSeeing: Avoid surprise
Ring of Anticipation: Initiative
Sandals of the Vagabond: Initiative
Belt of Battle: Initiative and actions
AM-torc: Defense/Debuff
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis: Sneaking around

In addition, there are permanent spells/Psionics (caster level 25)
Detect Magic = avoid surprises
Ubiquitous Vision = No flanks
Improved Blindsight = No need to spot most
Cloud Wings = +30 flight


The build tricks:

Many of these tricks are known, but a few might not be.

Minimal physic stats + Venerable + Reincarnation + Savage Species race change Ritual = +3 to mental stats and +2 or +3 to physical stats

Templates: Magic Blooded + Draconic + Unseelie Fey + 1 level buyoff = Dex+2, Wis-2, Chr+6

Class optimization is very different for fighters than for wizards. 1-2 levels in base classes avoids all multiclassing penalties. Many classes with BAB+1 maximizes base save bonus. Only a very few prestige classes merit more than 1-2 levels.

Body hopping:
Caster level 25 Gate (LeShay) + Magic Jar + Astal Seed + suicide = a LeShay Body. Note that Magic Jar and Astral Seed are done via UMD and UPD, implying they can be implemented in the 25 round limit so the LeShay must accept the Magic Jaring as a free service. To be nice, suicide after ending the Magic Jar.

Hit Points. Magic Jar is inferior to Mind Switch in most ways, but it has the odd effect of hit points being a property of the body, unlike Mind Switch.

Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun the Dark Chaos 11 times to scavenge feats

A LeShay has 5 racial feats (= natural abilities that are a property of the body).

Virtual feat recycling. Swordsage Discipline focus "feats" are not real feats and hence not valid fuel for E/S. But they are valid for the Master Thrower "critical throw" at level 5, yielding real Imp critical (dagger) and Imp critical (Sai) feats.

Self-qualifying prestige class. Master Thrower requires BAB+5 and provides BAB. Hence, a PHII class rebuild quest (i.e. an excuse to earn some experience points) allows you to swap out BAB+1 classes (Duskblade 1, Barbarian 1, Ranger 1) in the first 5 levels for other classes (Beguiler 1, Monk 1, MThrow 1)

Late entry Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader for L3- level maneuvers & stances.

Cloistered Cleric/Fist of Raziel/Witch Hunter for Saves+chr. (Paladin 2 is much easier, but not Ex).


The Combat Roles:

The build can satisfy many roles

Tank: AC of 82-103 depending on circumstances + 1-in-400 chance of failing a save + Iron Heart Surge + very threatening + Fast Heal 10 + Evasion

Striker: Average damage >2000 in favorable circumstances. A dagger is a melee weapon, so drawing it triggers Iajutsu Focus. The dagger can be thrown. Weak Spot + Flat-footed nukes the defense of almost all, so nearly all attacks hit, and attacks are doubled via Palm throw. In unfavorable circumstance average damage ~300 remains significant.

Scout: High maneuverability with wings, good spot, ability to bypass locks and traps, High Hide + MS.

(A viable alternative to Scout is Face, but I don't see how to get enough skill points for both.)

Init Monkey: Initiative +67 (roll twice) + White Raven Tactics = Go first + any ally goes second


Antiwizard Tactics:

Fighting a wizard requires many layers of tactics.

The first layer is antidivination via Mindblank.

The second is not being fooled: Truesight + high spot reveals most.

The third is tactical surprise. High Scout skills help here.

The fourth is going first.
(1) Win the initiative check. My understanding is that most wizards are stretched achieving initiative bonus >50 so +67 should win.

(2) Win the interrupt war. Some wizards will have celerity. Set our item-based contingent celerity to trigger if an opponent celerity triggers. Quick Recovery + Pride Domain makes the daze a nonproblem.

Some favor Contingent Spells. Contingent spells cost both money and experience, so I'm skeptical that they will be used that heavily. In any case, all the conditions stated for the usual contingent spell triggers (page 139 complete arcane) do not trigger.

The fifth is antimagic. Approach the wizard (Move 130 > Lifesight range) and trigger the AM Torc (Swift?) action. This eliminates all magical defenses.
(1) Note that obvious AMF contingencies don't work. "contingency, exposure to AMF" doesn't work because the contingency is suppressed by exposure. Similarly, "contingency, AMF near" doesn't work, because the AMF wasn't near before it was triggered and after triggering the contingency is suppressed.
(2) Some wizards are fond of shrink item lead cones. My opinion of this tactic is low (read the AMF fighter post), as it seems likely to not work or result in limbs on different sides of the cone. Nevertheless, if a giant cone expands above the head of the wizard we can initiate a grapple before it falls at 1 gravity movement speeds.
(3) Some wizards astrally project. See Astral projectors below.

The sixth is nailing the wizard down. Inside a cone this is automatic. Outside a cone, we have Combat Reflexes + Stand Still + Sudden Draw + IF = not moving anywhere and for huge+ wizards not fully in the AMF, we have Combat Reflexes + Mage Slayer + Sudden Draw + IF = not casting a spell.

In all cases, we can rob the wizard of all little objects using DC 40 sleight of hand checks.

Teleporters: A huge+ wizard might be able to cast quickened teleport without an AOO (depending on Mage Slayer vs Quicken adjudication). The teleport of course will either fail or leave behind a 10x10 chunk of the huge+ wizard---a very messy form of suicide for almost all.

The seventh is finishing the wizard. Extreme acrobatics 10' step (DC 40) through a wizards space + Acrobatic backstab + Iajutsu focus + Palm Throw + Arrow Swarm = high hp overkill penetrating any known level of damage reduction.

The eighth is "oops, there are allies".
(1) AMF eliminates most magical attack forms.
(2) Flat-footed Touch AC 82 defeats nearly all direct attacks.
(3) High saves defeat almost all nonmagical area effects.
(4) If all else fails, lots of HP to soak up damage.

Astral projectors: An astral projection in an AMF is suppressed. The spell does not end, so the wizard remains in hibernation on the far end. This puts the wizard in timeout for 110 minutes. This might be a sufficient window for prepared allies to launch an assault on th wizard's stronghold.

With some more resources, this can be extended further in some circumstances. An AMF only suppresses the portion of spells that overlap. My understanding is that by RAW each 5x5 area is either affected or not by the AMF. This means that for >medium creatures, it is possible to partially suppress an astral projection, in particular the head. Even medium creatures may be vulnerable if we can catch their arms outside of the AMF.

A partially suppressed Astral projection might result in instant death as suddenly interior elements are exterior, but the funner choice is that the body continues to live. Legs can't breath, drink, or feed themselves, so they would die in short order. But, this may be avoidable indefinitely by casting suitable spells on the legs.

With some allies this means we can tie the legs to a stick and carry the wizard to some source of permanent AMF keeping the strung up legs head down inside the AMF. Alternatively, a friendly spellthief, and suitable applications of nonlethal damage could yield a compliant wizard outside of the AMF.

Known weaknesses:

1) Unbounded power loops. There are many.

2) A persistomancer wizard that hides can be undetectable.


Actually you only think the character did all this... The character is actually still at level one (or level drained to level one) and is in a coma as this "life" plays through his head

The wizard then wakes up said pc, slaps him and says "no".

[Anthrowhale]

One wizard may not have them all, but any one wizard has the potential for all of them. So wouldn't a mage slayer need to be able to bypass them?

It depends on unspecified context.


As soon as he is within 40 feet his item of AMF is suppressed. AMF is an emanation, when it's source is supressed it ends.

It triggers as the spell, and emanates for the duration of the spell. Otherwise, the item would suppress itself.


Drawing a dagger and throwing it, makes it a ranged weapon, not eligible for Iaijitsu focus.

A dagger is a light melee weapon at the moment it is drawn, and hence valid fuel for IF. The purpose to which you put the dagger after drawing it is not mentioned in the description of IF and hence has no impact.

[dextercorvia]

A dagger is a light melee weapon at the moment it is drawn, and hence valid fuel for IF. The purpose to which you put the dagger after drawing it is not mentioned in the description of IF and hence has no impact.

This is unimportant, since the Wizard is not flat footed, in any case.

[Boci]

It depends on unspecified context.

So the character would know the defenses of the mages he is going to face?


It triggers as the spell, and emanates for the duration of the spell. Otherwise, the item would suppress itself.

Presumably, but could you activate it within an AMF?

[urkthegurk]

...
Anyone can steal a combination of broken feats to create an almighty god. Why not experiment with something new? See who can make the best merchant, build the best castle, lay the most bar maids. I just want to see something new rather than these glass cannon one round rocket matches. You know how DM of the Rings pointed out how lame of a D&D campaign lord of the rings would be? Imagine if you watched a movie based off D&D where everyone was a power gamer like that, every fight lasts six seconds, the villain can't be defeated without the DM missing something really obvious, and the whole campaign revolves around looking into crystal balls and trying to scry on each other to teleport in, and when someone in a blue moon finally manages to kill the other. OOPS it's an astral projection and the audience just wasted watching 2 hours of POINTLESS STUFF.
...


Actually, I'm watching all these threads and making notes for storytelling using rocket-tag type magics. You're imagining Harry Potter style magic fights, I'm imagining Bleach. Or even that the Wizards aren't protagonists or even antagonists so much as extremely powerful forces caught up in their own insane wars, ripping open huge chunks of reality and depleting the very forces of magic itself so they can have their little contests. In my game, Hell isn't ruled by demons anymore, its ruled by a wizard. Sure, the Archdevils are there too, and they're probably wiser than the arcanist factions, but they keep out of the way of the paranoid spaz with the seventeen layers of contingency.

And writing fight scenes based on this wouldn't be impossible. You just have to slow everything down. Sure, to outside perception the battle only lasts eight seconds, but to the wizards themselves, once that time stop goes down and all of their spells start to trigger, and they get sucked out of astral form, and their enemy steals their legs and starts dangling them over the abyss, so they have to use magic to keep their limbs alive... That sounds hilarious. Fights among wizards don't last one round. They last their entire career. Wizards are ALWAYS fighting. Because when they sense that super-intelligent creature hurtling towards them at 600 mph, they don't have much time to respond. Is it an assassin? Or is it some deva merely passing through?

This is why I start my campaigns, though, at level one. Level one wizards have some nice tricks, to be sure. But elder wizards, even 'good' ones, have every reason to want to limit the number of wizards that make it to eighth level. The guilds in my world actively hunt unaffiliated, unregistered wizards that progress past level four on their own. They are jealous of passing secrets even to their own apprentices. They keep themselves locked inside towers for a reason. Can you see why someone might want to say 'screw it' and opt to be a warrior instead? I mean, someone living in this world, not necessarily a player. There's a much lower chance you'll have your soul ripped out. Having a wizard in the party is great if you know you're going to have to fight a wizard (poor you) but otherwise its just a liability. You might as well paint a big target on your back.

Clerics and Druids are also very hostile to Wizards as well, for obvious reasons. You have to look at the assumptions laid forth in the rules, imagine a world (or set of worlds) where that's how things work, and then tweak them. Maybe players should be encouraged to play Warlocks instead, so they don't get in over their head.

[Flickerdart]

Sure, to outside perception the battle only lasts eight seconds, but to the wizards themselves
You mean, how a 3-round fight might take several hours in real life?

Oh my god, guys.

We are the wizards.

[dextercorvia]

Storytelling

I'd play this.

[urkthegurk]

You mean, how a 3-round fight might take several hours in real life?

*snip*.

Sure. And yes, an amateur wizard might just explode with poorly thought out fail-safe measure, leveling the countryside whenever they detect anyone with a high INT approaching really fast. But given all the Celerity spells being tossed around, I'd imagine their perception slowing down as well. And imagine a story where the wizards pointy hat turns into a giant lead cone! Hilarious. This is WHY wizards wear point hats, people!

[Flickerdart]

But why does a wizard's staff have a knob on the end?

[TopCheese]

But why does a wizard's staff have a knob on the end?

:smallwink: Well for wizardry type of things :smallwink:

[Anodai]

The biggest problem with a big lead cone is that even if you aren't flying, it assumes a very flat ground. Little cracks between where the cone is and where the ground is would let the anti-magic in.

Urkthegurk TOTALLY has the right approach.

[kardar233]

The biggest problem with a big lead cone is that even if you aren't flying, it assumes a very flat ground. Little cracks between where the cone is and where the ground is would let the anti-magic in.

Urkthegurk TOTALLY has the right approach.

You need to have a hole of at least 1ft square to allow LoE. Little cracks aren't an issue.

[urkthegurk]

If you are flying high enough, the cone will drag you downwards, outside of the area of effect. It is now your turn! You cast a spell and escape.

[Flickerdart]

If you are flying high enough, the cone will drag you downwards, outside of the area of effect. It is now your turn! You cast a spell and escape.
If you are flying, you fall down despite the cone, then you're out of AMF range and can act normally.

[urkthegurk]

Still, its funnier with the cone. And they can't detect your alignment!

[metabolicjosh]

How about we settle this once and for all. A skype Battle!

My Wizard vs Anthrowhale's build!

We need a DM to help referee the game.

Any one want to ref?

I can do this tomorrow. Got school stuff...

[Anthrowhale]

What Kazyan said, but the real trick is you craft a construct or make a permanant animated object or something in the plane of Hax Magic, and cast Planar Bubble on the object, since you can't choose which plane the bubble emulates, it has to be the native plane.


A softer version would involve importing familiar livestock and raising a new one from scratch.



In which case 10d6 no save is even better than 20d6 save half.


Right. Better have the AMF up before it hits.



Doesn't the AMF from the torc only last for 10 minutes, though?


110 minutes. (caster level 11)



The most common way is time stop right after you win with the celerities.


So it's celerity, timestop, daze for a round in timestop, then act for 1d4 rounds. Rinse & repeat until you run out of Timestop.


Quick Recovery is a good way around a Daze if you have no other way to do it.

Quick Recovery doesn't allow more than one celerity/round though.


If your using thicket to confine him to your AMF, what stops them using Iron Heart Surge (2 feats or 1 level dip)


I don't believe you can use Iron Heart Surge in this fashion in the same sense that you can't Iron Heart Surge away falling off a cliff.



or any of them Shadow X line (1 feat each or 1 level dip) to break/escape it.


These seem potentially valid.



And spells with a cast time of one swift action don't provoke.


They do consume a swift action though, which makes Invoke Magic rather pointless.



Exalted is so good your eyes bleed. Abyssal Heritor feats have evil fluff, even if you are just borrowing them for a moment.


I think you are confusing abyssal heritor feats and vile feats. The relevant text is: "Unlike vile feats, Abyssal heritor feats are not inherently evil. They are, however, inherently chaotic,..."



Asking a creature to destroy itself for your benefit, likewise, is just not Exalted.


The people for the ethical treatment of LeShay need not be concerned as no LeShay were harmed in the creation of this build.



It isn't a single spell. I'm not saying it couldn't be created, but it takes even more DM intervention. Both spells are supposed to be cast at the same time.


I think it's fair to call it a stretch.



They are not Unbounded. There are a finite number of Miracles that I can cast, and I'm not using them to get more Miracles.


Miracle is basically in the same category as a Dweomerkeeper with wishes for me. Yes, it's legal to be able to cast just about any spell, but I'd prefer a more interesting solution than daily Miracles.



It has little to do with Miracle, and mostly to do with Craft Contingent Spell, which is RAW. I'm only using Miracle to cast a spell that isn't on my list. That is far more intended than using Magic Jar to permanently make yourself a 50HD creature without paying for those HD.


If you used the Miracle once to grant yourself immunity to daze, I'd be more likely to accept it. But, daily Miracles seem rather against the meaning of Miracle.



You are going to need a better definition of Unbounded. Right now that seems to be anything you think would hurt your build.


I have accepted several vulnerabilities, so this is incorrect.

But yes, I do need a better definition. Here's an attempt:
(1) Anything greater than twice the standard action economy.
(2) Any choose-your-own-reality effects like miracle, wish, epic spellcasting, and alter reality used on a regular basis.
(3) Anything breaking WBL.
(4) Anything involving immunity to damage.
(5) Any method of choosing an arbitrarily high stat.



I forget, which one of us gets multiple standard actions per turn?


Action economy is certainly an issue in general.



(1) would make the feat have no effect whatsoever, and the feat states that it only works when you are casting the spell within an AMF or DMZ.


No. It would mean that an IoM inside an AMF or magic dead zone could cast a magic missile at an opponent in a normal magic region. It would also mean that the IoM could cast a mindblank inside of the AMF and have it take effect precisely when the AMF ends, eliminating a few second vulnerability window.

I'm also unclear on the meaning of 'within'. Is it "You within" or "spells within"?

Interpreted this way, the feat remains a powerful choice, since the opponent just hit by magic missile has responses which are more limited than against the Extraordinary Spell Aim AMF players.



It doesn't change how the spell interacts with other AMFs, that rules out (3).

Suppose the caster and the target are each in an AMF. How many rolls do you think are required? Or more generally an area effect spell is cast that intersects with many AMFs. The basic question here is: Are AMFs characterized by their caster level (as required by the feat) or by their casting (which is allowed by the feat and your interpretation)? I don't see a definitive answer. An argument against the second interpretation is that casting the same spell twice usually has no effect.

[metabolicjosh]

Hahahahaha you... xD its just funny that you try take away the main reasons casters are awesome. But fine if you fight me i will use no wishes or miracles.

Because if i did you would die in 6 seconds.

[Anthrowhale]

This is unimportant, since the Wizard is not flat footed, in any case.

The wizard can be flat-footed inside an AMF.


So the character would know the defenses of the mages he is going to face?


Unanswerable without context.



Presumably, but could you activate it within an AMF?

No.


Actually, I'm watching all these threads and making notes for storytelling using rocket-tag type magics.

I like it.

[Augmental]

Miracle is basically in the same category as a Dweomerkeeper with wishes for me. Yes, it's legal to be able to cast just about any spell, but I'd prefer a more interesting solution than daily Miracles.

So... it's not a valid solution because you think it's boring? You're dealing with tier 1 casters, you have to deal with this stuff.


If you used the Miracle once to grant yourself immunity to daze, I'd be more likely to accept it. But, daily Miracles seem rather against the meaning of Miracle.

RAW is RAW.

[Kazyan]

xD its just funny that you try take away the main reasons casters are awesome.

This just in: wizard lover admits casters only win because of exploits.

[Augmental]

This just in: wizard lover admits casters only win because of exploits.

Anthrowhale made a "Level 20 wizard killer" build, not a "Level 20 wizard-that-can't-use-its-most-powerful-options-because-I-think-it's-unfair killer" build.

[Lord_Gareth]

This just in: wizard lover admits casters only win because of exploits.

No, caster wins because he woke up in the morning, shot off some divinations to determine what threats he was facing today, prepared his spells accordingly and laughed the entire time the fighter was trying to kill him.

[metabolicjosh]

Not quite, just that wizards are cool because you can...
Create a whole world.
Make a new Species
Befriend a god because he knows your as good as him.
But yes wizards do have exploits.
But i do not use them!!!
I use things like preperation... and planning.
Sure a wizard can use a infinite miracle combo.
But if you fight me i wont.
But to be fair there is no such thing as a mage killer who is not also a caster.
So fight me and know that when i beat you i... WAS HOLDING BACK!!!

Blamn
Metabolicjosh 5:30 Tuesday, September 4th 2012

[Kazyan]

Anthrowhale made a "Level 20 wizard killer" build, not a "Level 20 wizard-that-can't-use-its-most-powerful-options-because-I-think-it's-unfair killer" build.

Of course. It is not actually possible in 3.5 to kill a wizard, because wizards can have any level of power they wish and and the one you're hypothetically talking about will always occupy a notch above you. However, I'd like to think that this mage-killer should not be expected to have an answer to things that other wizards don't have an answer to.

[Augmental]

However, I'd like to think that this mage-killer should not be expected to have an answer to things that other wizards don't have an answer to.

Actually, other wizards can counter-exploit. Not so with this guy.

[Lord_Gareth]

Of course. It is not actually possible in 3.5 to kill a wizard, because wizards can have any level of power they wish and and the one you're hypothetically talking about will always occupy a notch above you. However, I'd like to think that this mage-killer should not be expected to have an answer to things that other wizards don't have an answer to.

And that's the problem, now isn't it? If one wizard isn't capable of forcing a confrontation with another (they're not), then how is this hypothetical mage killer going to find and force a confrontation with a wizard that doesn't want to fight?

[Boci]

Unanswerable without context.

So you cannot answer the question "Will your character be able to do their intended job?" without context? That seems like weakness, given that most wizard builds work regardless of context, unless the context is an anti-magic world.

[Kazyan]

And that's the problem, now isn't it? If one wizard isn't capable of forcing a confrontation with another (they're not), then how is this hypothetical mage killer going to find and force a confrontation with a wizard that doesn't want to fight?

...Well, you've stumped me. Good point.

[metabolicjosh]

See the thing is that its hard to have a person not do anything just so that he can live forever in boredom.

[Lord_Gareth]

See the thing is that its hard to have a person not do anything just so that he can live forever in boredom.

Who says anything about not doing anything?

Aforementioned 'doesn't want to fight' wizard only really needs his daily divinations, a place to hang his hat up (an underground fortress or demiplane will do) and a contingent teleport to be able to escape ANY fight, even if only temporarily, for his entire life. And then you get to further insurances, such as being a Dire Tortoise at all times, or summoning semi-permanent guardians, constructing traps, and that kind of thing. In the meantime you have a rich and full life doing whatever it is you like (admittedly, you're doing it as a talking turtle, but this is 3.5 - there are places you don't even get two looks) in the full knowledge that even if your enemies kick in your door while your shell is getting scrubbed in the bathtub you can teleport out, scry on them to determine who's trying to kill you and then come back to beat their face in.

[metabolicjosh]

Mind Blank though... he has no way to be divined on... Easily.


I realy do want to fight his build. if he wont play it will anyone else?

[Lord_Gareth]

Mind Blank though... he has no way to be divined on... Easily.


I realy do want to fight his build. if he wont play it will anyone else?

Mindsight penetrates Mind Blank. Additionally, summoned guardians can spot the fighter coming, not to mention the whole 'Being a Dire Tortoise' thing means that even if you ambush the wizard he surprises you instead of you surprising him. He doesn't need to see you coming to get away before you can do anything.

[metabolicjosh]

IM TRYING TO GET SOMEONE TO USE THIS BUILD IN A FIGHT!
xD seriously no one?

ah man

[urkthegurk]

Hahahahaha you... xD its just funny that you try take away the main reasons casters are awesome. But fine if you fight me i will use no wishes or miracles.

Because if i did you would die in 6 seconds.

Yes, but let's pretend this isn't taking place in a vacuum. If your character uses that sort of power, other wizards, or those gods you're so chummy with, are going to get pissed and they're going to kill you. Because you know who else can use infinite Miracles? Gods. And they have pet Elemental Weirds, and on and on. And its their turf, so 'would they like what you're doing' is the real question. At this level of cheese, you're not casting magic, you're playing politics.

Unless you crafted the spell yourself, someone thought of the combo before you and either exploited it, got themselves killed by someone bigger, or found a way to stop it up. Using Miracle once in a while is conceivably a bad idea all on its own, because it attracts attention. Of course, you are defending yourself, so the gods will understand, but use reasonable force and you'll avoid attracting the attention of entities that invented 'overpowered' in the first place.

EDIT: You should play the battle out in PBP in these forums. And you should tone down your rancor! Person is just trying to make a wacky build, no reason you should bite. If anything, you should give respect for attempting the impossible. As you point out, making an unbeatable mage is easy, so its nothing to be proud of. Step back a bit.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but let's pretend this isn't taking place in a vacuum. If your character uses that sort of power, other wizards, or those gods you're so chummy with, are going to get pissed and they're going to kill you. Because you know who else can use infinite Miracles? Gods. And they have pet Elemental Weirds, and on and on. And its their turf, so 'would they like what you're doing' is the real question. At this level of cheese, you're not casting magic, you're playing politics.

Unless you crafted the spell yourself, someone thought of the combo before you and either exploited it, got themselves killed by someone bigger, or found a way to stop it up. Using Miracle once in a while is conceivably a bad idea all on its own, because it attracts attention. Of course, you are defending yourself, so the gods will understand, but use reasonable force and you'll avoid attracting the attention of entities that invented 'overpowered' in the first place.
DM fiat does not belong in TO.

[urkthegurk]

That's not DM fiat. Are we assuming that there are only two living creatures in this universe? Because then we might as well do away with 'context' and say they meet on a flat, featureless landscape and there are no other planes other than the ones the wizard may have made themselves. Use the RAW gods, give them a reasonable level in Wizard or Cleric, and give them the best possible cheese. There's a reason not to chain Miracle or Wish right there, unless you are yourself trying to kill one of the gods.

My point is, rocket-tag has a lot more participants. As many as cast the relevant divinations and got themselves in the game. As soon as you start cheese, or even before, you attract their attention. And do you really want to do that to off a measly 'fighter' build? Nope. So kill him with what you have, which should be easy, if somewhat more complex

But yeah, I do do a lot of DM'ing

[TuggyNE]

EDIT: You should play the battle out in PBP in these forums.

Take it to Myth-Weavers, where Rejakor is running multiple challenges (http://www.myth-weavers.com/game.php?g=12166).

I've been an observer there for a while, and the variety of mages and mundanes, of widely differing op levels, has been intriguing.

[metabolicjosh]

xD no i guess well...

I actually like his build. It would kill most people i play with. Or make them use their secret build that im not allowed to see, Yet...
Besides i like to play epic 6 mostly.
But i do love those god slayer games.

In fact hmm. epic 6 optimization? I have a idea for archetypes... I go make new thread.

[Flickerdart]

That's not DM fiat. Are we assuming that there are only two living creatures in this universe? Because then we might as well do away with 'context' and say they meet on a flat, featureless landscape and there are no other planes other than the ones the wizard may have made themselves. Use the RAW gods, give them a reasonable level in Wizard or Cleric, and give them the best possible cheese. There's a reason not to chain Miracle or Wish right there, unless you are yourself trying to kill one of the gods.

My point is, rocket-tag has a lot more participants. As many as cast the relevant divinations and got themselves in the game. As soon as you start cheese, or even before, you attract their attention. And do you really want to do that to off a measly 'fighter' build? Nope. So kill him with what you have, which should be easy, if somewhat more complex

But yeah, I do do a lot of DM'ing
"Epic level NPCs come and kill you" isn't DM fiat? Colour me surprised. I guess all TO and CO is irrelevant now because Mystra does it better.

[urkthegurk]

Its not irrelevant, its just that now we know HOW Mystra does it better :smallwink:

Seriously though, are you saying these two hypothetical characters we're talking about both NPCs?

[dextercorvia]

I think you are confusing abyssal heritor feats and vile feats. The relevant text is: "Unlike vile feats, Abyssal heritor feats are not inherently evil. They are, however, inherently chaotic,..."


That may have been my mistake.


The people for the ethical treatment of LeShay need not be concerned as no LeShay were harmed in the creation of this build.


Would you care to explain more than ask nicely? I might be missing part of the trick, but how does it survive.


Miracle is basically in the same category as a Dweomerkeeper with wishes for me. Yes, it's legal to be able to cast just about any spell, but I'd prefer a more interesting solution than daily Miracles.

If you used the Miracle once to grant yourself immunity to daze, I'd be more likely to accept it. But, daily Miracles seem rather against the meaning of Miracle.


I could do it with Limited Wish if you'd rather. I think you are getting too hung up on the fluff of Miracle. So long as you stay to the non-fiat options, it is a powerful but not out of line spell.


I have accepted several vulnerabilities, so this is incorrect.

But yes, I do need a better definition. Here's an attempt:
(1) Anything greater than twice the standard action economy.
(2) Any choose-your-own-reality effects like miracle, wish, epic spellcasting, and alter reality used on a regular basis.
(3) Anything breaking WBL.
(4) Anything involving immunity to damage.
(5) Any method of choosing an arbitrarily high stat.


(1) So a Chronotyryn using Celerity breaks this because they get t3 standard actions? How does this fit with Contingency? That doesn't take an action, but can grant one.

(2) Addressed above, but the within the defined limits, those are appropriate spells. Would you rather I have a custom 1/day item of Favor of the Martyr, and any other off list spells I want? At least with Miracle, I'm spending resources, and daily spells to achieve the effects I want.

That said, I'm anti-custom magic items. They are just too breakable, and require a DM to price and adjudicate.

(3) So, no creating your own items?

(4) What about taking the damage, but it just not killing you? :smallbiggrin:

(5) So, I guess you aren't a fan of Taint?

Honestly, the fact that you have to ask that a caster not do all of this, just so you have a chance to beat them is pretty indicative of how this will go.


No. It would mean that an IoM inside an AMF or magic dead zone could cast a magic missile at an opponent in a normal magic region. It would also mean that the IoM could cast a mindblank inside of the AMF and have it take effect precisely when the AMF ends, eliminating a few second vulnerability window.

I'm also unclear on the meaning of 'within'. Is it "You within" or "spells within"?

Interpreted this way, the feat remains a powerful choice, since the opponent just hit by magic missile has responses which are more limited than against the Extraordinary Spell Aim AMF players.

Suppose the caster and the target are each in an AMF. How many rolls do you think are required? Or more generally an area effect spell is cast that intersects with many AMFs. The basic question here is: Are AMFs characterized by their caster level (as required by the feat) or by their casting (which is allowed by the feat and your interpretation)? I don't see a definitive answer.[quote]

However you choose to see it, there is nothing in the text that implies the spell has any additional resistance against future AMFs. Honestly, that helps your build. Take it.

[quote=Anthrowhale] An argument against the second interpretation is that casting the same spell twice usually has no effect.
This is just untrue.


The wizard can be flat-footed inside an AMF.

Only if you can get an AMF around the wizard before combat begins. Otherwise Foresight says he isn't flat-footed. Suppressing Foresight after the fact won't change that, since he will have had a chance to act (immediate action) whether or not he did. (He did, and combat is now over, and you still haven't activated your torc.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

"Epic level NPCs come and kill you" isn't DM fiat? Colour me surprised. I guess all TO and CO is irrelevant now because Mystra does it better.

I don't even think that's what he's saying.

What he's saying, or at least what I read from it, is "if you reach a certain level of power, it will attract the attention of the gods."

Since a number of the gods can by RAW cast miracle, wish or wish+ at will; and the gods of magic know you're going to be rapid casting miracles/wishes 4 months in advance. It's entirely within reason for them to pop-in and say, "Hey! No," before you're even capable of pulling such shenanigans.

They could, of course, smite you if you ignore their "request" that you not do that.

Between this and pun pun, excersizes in TO are largely pointless, beyond the fact that they're entertaining in the sense of being interesting logical puzzles.

I think pun pun, just barely slips under the gods' radar by rapidly moving from one god's portfolio sense to another's at different stages of his development. No one god sees the whole process so they don't realize what he's doing until it's done. I'm also fairly certain that Ao and Pun Pun are the same entity.

[Flickerdart]

Its not irrelevant, its just that now we know HOW Mystra does it better :smallwink:

Seriously though, are you saying these two hypothetical characters we're talking about both NPCs?
I'm saying that in a fight between a wizard and a wizard-killer, "the gods intervene" is not a relevant outcome because it makes the match pointless. There is no mechanical way for either character to get gods involved directly, therefore the gods don't come into it. Saying "oh but surely it would make them come and tell people to stop abusing miracles" is nothing but DM fiat because such an outcome is not listed in any rules text.

[Anthrowhale]

So... it's not a valid solution because you think it's boring?


Actually, I expect you find it boring. How many times can you pull punpun out without moving on to something new? Succeeding with less is at least not boring.


That seems like weakness, given that most wizard builds work regardless of context, unless the context is an anti-magic world.

When you are hunting game this dangerous, you don't necessarily expect to win.


being a Dire Tortoise at all times,

Foresight = never surprised. Dire tortoise = surprise all. The contradiction may not resolve in your favor.

[urkthegurk]

I don't even think that's what he's saying.

What he's saying, or at least what I read from it, is "if you reach a certain level of power, it will attract the attention of the gods."

Since a number of the gods can by RAW cast miracle, wish or wish+ at will; and the gods of magic know you're going to be rapid casting miracles/wishes 4 months in advance. It's entirely within reason for them to pop-in and say, "Hey! No," before you're even capable of pulling such shenanigans.

They could, of course, smite you if you ignore their "request" that you not do that.

Between this and pun pun, excersizes in TO are largely pointless, beyond the fact that they're entertaining in the sense of being interesting logical puzzles.

*snip*

Basically, almost. I'm just pointing out context, because you are dealing with a battlefield that is far more than three-dimensional. If you're going to attract a god's attention, it had better like you. And in this world, wizards are equal to gods, right? So I don't even have to drag in divinity to prove my point. As long as we're dealing with more than two characters, no one is going to allow you to chain miracles. You can do ANYTHING, and its too dangerous.

Think about what would happen if a brilliant physicist started publicly manufacturing nuclear bombs in Central Park.


I'm saying that in a fight between a wizard and a wizard-killer, "the gods intervene" is not a relevant outcome because it makes the match pointless. There is no mechanical way for either character to get gods involved directly, therefore the gods don't come into it. Saying "oh but surely it would make them come and tell people to stop abusing miracles" is nothing but DM fiat because such an outcome is not listed in any rules text.

It is mechanically valid if you read the god's or the other wizards text. If you assume another character can cast high level divination, they're going to intervene. Because they have to. Rules text.

Saying that the mage fighter wants to kill mages isn't in any rules text anywhere. We assume they do because it makes the simulation work. I'm asking, what kind of sim do you want? A flat, featureless plain? Or world, which by any RAW has many many high level casters and divinities. How does this not fall within the rules?

[Flickerdart]

It is mechanically valid if you read the god's or the other wizards text. If you assume another character can cast high level divination, they're going to intervene. Because they have to. Rules text.
[citation needed]


Saying that the mage fighter wants to kill mages isn't in any rules text anywhere. We assume they do because it makes the simulation work. I'm asking, what kind of sim do you want? A flat, featureless plain? Or world, which by any RAW has many many high level casters and divinities. How does this not fall within the rules?
Two boxers square off in the ring. Do we consider that the US Army would airdrop tanks into the arena when trying to establish who would win?

[Augmental]

If you're going to attract a god's attention, it had better like you.

Or you could just not do anything that would anger the gods. If you don't directly harm the gods, why should they care?


It is mechanically valid if you read the god's or the other wizards text.

You mean fluff text? Because I have no idea where it says that the gods absolutely must interfere with anything.


If you assume another character can cast high level divination, they're going to intervene. Because they have to. Rules text.

You mean fluff. Why does someone have to intervene in anything just because they're a high-level caster?


Saying that the mage fighter wants to kill mages isn't in any rules text anywhere. We assume they do because it makes the simulation work. I'm asking, what kind of sim do you want? A flat, featureless plain? Or world, which by any RAW has many many high level casters and divinities. How does this not fall within the rules?

That's not how the TO world works. The world of TO generally assumes that there's no DM, and by extension he can't say "rocks fall, everyone dies."

[Anthrowhale]

Would you care to explain more than ask nicely? I might be missing part of the trick, but how does it survive.


Suicide occurs after the Mind Jar terminates.



I could do it with Limited Wish if you'd rather. I think you are getting too hung up on the fluff of Miracle. So long as you stay to the non-fiat options, it is a powerful but not out of line spell.


Limited Wish is a more satisfying solution than Miracle. Even more satisfying would be having it on your spell list.



(1) So a Chronotyryn using Celerity breaks this because they get t3 standard actions? How does this fit with Contingency? That doesn't take an action, but can grant one.


Interference eliminates any attempted 3rd action, even if by contingency? We're making up the limits here, so we might as well make them hard limits.



(2) Addressed above, but the within the defined limits, those are appropriate spells. Would you rather I have a custom 1/day item of Favor of the Martyr, and any other off list spells I want? At least with Miracle, I'm spending resources, and daily spells to achieve the effects I want.


What resources do you spend on a miracle other than daily spells? Godly patience? A custom 1/day item seems like a more severe restriction as it consumes nontrivial WBL.



(3) So, no creating your own items?


I think your own items are reasonable as long as excessive experience isn't used. What's excessive? Maybe 1 level worth of experience.

Also, expendables are too cheap for one-off challenges. Multiply their cost by a factor of 10.



(4) What about taking the damage, but it just not killing you? :smallbiggrin:


That sounds equivalent to no damage in effect.



(5) So, I guess you aren't a fan of Taint?


and Shambling Mounds, Consumptive Field, etc...



Honestly, the fact that you have to ask that a caster not do all of this, just so you have a chance to beat them is pretty indicative of how this will go.


At least make it interesting.



Take it.


Ok, let's do option (1) as wizards are already rather powerful.



This is just untrue.


Wrong wording. Try "overlaps without additional effect".



Suppressing Foresight after the fact won't change that, since he will have had a chance to act (immediate action) whether or not he did.


PH page 137 says "specifically, before your first turn in the initiative order". Foresight grants the option of an immediate action, but an immediate action doesn't seem to eliminate flat-footed.

[urkthegurk]

Two boxers square off in the ring. Do we consider that the US Army would airdrop tanks into the arena when trying to establish who would win?

Two fighters square off in an arena. Do we consider that Zeus and Emperor Tippy and Pun-Pun will be angered by this engagement and smite them? No, because they are insignificant mortals with puny martial skills. Wizards wielding chain spells are the equivalent of Godzilla or Galactus or entire invading armies. Except stronger.


Or you could just not do anything that would anger the gods. If you don't directly harm the gods, why should they care?


Casting Miracle an infinite number of times harms the gods because it puts you on their level of power. Usurping their position costs them worshipers, which costs them divinity. Or, if you're not using those rules, it is still arbitrarily threatening, because someone who is doing this can probably challenge the gods or even kill them.



You mean fluff text? Because I have no idea where it says that the gods absolutely must interfere with anything.


It doesn't. It also doesn't say that mage-slayers must try and kill mages. Its sort of in the name.



You mean fluff. Why does someone have to intervene in anything just because they're a high-level caster?


Because only a high-level caster can kill an high level caster, and a caster channeling multiple Miracles is a direct threat.



That's not how the TO world works. The world of TO generally assumes that there's no DM, and by extension he can't say "rocks fall, everyone dies."

I'm not. There is no DM. Similarly, the DM can't say that gods, or powerful wizards or whatever WON'T get involved. You can chain miracles to kill this one dude, or you can re-write vast expanses of the cosmos. Are the other players supposed to trust you that you're not going to do that? Let's assume everyone is equally paranoid as this one wizard and this one mage slayer. What can they actually get away with?

Notice I'm not positing any actual grudges or enemies, the gods don't hate the wizard, and they don't want him dead before he chains spells. Its just an obvious reaction, the same as the wizards obvious reactions to this build involve all sorts of choice-based tricks. Games involve choices, TO or not. Without choice, none of these character do anything. So we are dealing with hypotheticals. And this is a fairly simple hypothetical.

Let's make it a simpler hypothetical though. Lets assume that instead of two characters of equal level there are maybe a dozen or two, all various core classes, several of which are tier 1 casters, scattered across a vast globe. They are the only characters, for whatever reason, that will get involved. These two characters, wizard and slayer, are the only ones present at the moment discussed. Now, what happens?

[metabolicjosh]

You know what i destroy the universe just so this chaos will stop

[dextercorvia]

Suicide occurs after the Mind Jar terminates. I'm still unsure on this. Would you mind actually walking me through the steps?


PH page 137 says "specifically, before your first turn in the initiative order". Foresight grants the option of an immediate action, but an immediate action doesn't seem to eliminate flat-footed.

Immediate actions came about later, so wouldn't be covered by PHB wordings, but I'll stipulate that suppressing Foresight would cause you to be Flatfooted if your turn hasn't come up yet. I still don't think you can get the AMF around a Wizard before he can celerity.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Threads are like bullets. Once they've been fired, you can't put them back in the gun.

The mods can throw up a kevlar sheet if they don't like where it's going though.

[metabolicjosh]

I didn't even make this thread... Look at where we are now... SORRY!

[Kazyan]

I'm still unsure on this. Would you mind actually walking me through the steps?

I think the process is to Mind Jar the LeShay, so that the LeShay's body is the one you inhabit, and then manifest Astral Seed. Wait for Magic Jar to timeout, return to your normal body, then give the LeShay a cookie and tell it to go back home. Dunk your head in a Sphere of Annihilation or whatever. Astral Seed will recreate your body as it was at the time of manifesting--a LeShay.

[Flickerdart]

Casting Miracle an infinite number of times harms the gods because it puts you on their level of power.
In what way is casting a 9th level spell even close to being at the same level of power as a god, and why of all spells would you pick Miracle as an example of that?

[Kelb_Panthera]

In what way is casting a 9th level spell even close to being at the same level of power as a god, and why of all spells would you pick Miracle as an example of that?

Certainly not the same level of power, but a level of power high enough to start really screwing up their pet project (the material plane.)

I know I'd get annoyed if someone kicked over my sandcastle.

[urkthegurk]

I chose it because it was an example floating around in the thread, I think. As for what you could do with a chain of effects that powerful, I leave it to your imagination. I'm sure there are lots of broken combos you could pull off and infini-buffs that you could duplicate. Even if you're not using it to go toe-to-toe with someone, you can use it to get powerful enough that you could do so in the future. If I was a god, I'd do the same to anyone casting genesis, and a slew of other spells. Paranoia runs deep.

My point is mostly for sanity's sake, and because I like the idea of campaigns' where this actually takes place. So please allow a bit of my role-play storytelling kibitzing. I don't want to derail the thread, I'm merely providing examples of why someone might not want to use those effects, via RAW or something close to.

EDIT:



Certainly not the same level of power, but a level of power high enough to start really screwing up their pet project (the material plane.)

I know I'd get annoyed if someone kicked over my sandcastle.

Exactly.

[Flickerdart]

So you're saying that casting 9th level spells makes gods come and tell you to stop? I'm...honestly not sure what would lead you to believe that this is the case. Certainly one would think that the chapter on magic would at least give an off-hand mention along the lines of "oh, and if you actually use any of these, Kord comes over to your house and throws a brick through your window".

[Kelb_Panthera]

So you're saying that casting 9th level spells makes gods come and tell you to stop? I'm...honestly not sure what would lead you to believe that this is the case. Certainly one would think that the chapter on magic would at least give an off-hand mention along the lines of "oh, and if you actually use any of these, Kord comes over to your house and throws a brick through your window".

Not so much casting ninth level spells in general, as casting NI iterations of miracle and wish, the spells that tell the laws of reality, "Sit down, and shut the **** up," more loudly than any other effect in the game, except of course the alter reality ability of some gods, which is basically wish+

[Korivan]

My friend can't get me the build for a while. But I remember enough to get by a rough description.

It was a wild mage. Don't remember if this required some third party stuff.
But the premise was to create a small wild magic area that didn't stop magic (AMF was deemed too poor of an ability to counter magic), but rather twisted it into unpredicatble results. With some class features and feats he increased his odds for better results, and used the PRC Fatespinner to lower my odds.

We later added gestalt for fun, he added rouge with huge focus on luck feats/and mundane hiding (helps to have good imagination, had some steller uses of camo)

Best mage slayer I've ever seen was a gestalt rouge/psion that dropped rouge for assassin. (there are three options when bringing in psionics, they picked the one where they did not interact with each other). With some arcane items, he was nearly unstoppable.

Lastly, (getting back to OP)as for the craft contingent stuff, my problem with that is, why the crap would any decent wizard be without their own craft contingent/contingency/chain contingency/spell matrix series, and so forth.
Once ya get to the contingency/interrupt war, its more about who can do it easier and without support. So far, I havn't seen this build show anything we havn't seen with the AMF archer. sorry

[Flickerdart]

Magic is a law of reality in D&D. Using magic is no more unusual than not using magic. Thinking that gods are somehow required by the rules to pop up every time magic is used a bunch is not supported in anything that even resembles rules, and continues to be utterly irrelevant to the theoretical competition between these, or any other, two characters.

I mean, at least try to think of some rule that demonstrates this isn't DM fiat. What rules text supports how many wishes is too many? Is one wish enough to call down a god's wrath, since it's apparently practically Alter Reality? What about two? Three wishes and a miracle? Five miracles, a Wish, a psionic Reality Revision and a Limited Wish? No wishes, but you summon three genies and get them to grant you three apiece?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Magic is a law of reality in D&D. Using magic is no more unusual than not using magic. Thinking that gods are somehow required by the rules to pop up every time magic is used a bunch is not supported in anything that even resembles rules, and continues to be utterly irrelevant to the theoretical competition between these, or any other, two characters.

I mean, at least try to think of some rule that demonstrates this isn't DM fiat. What rules text supports how many wishes is too many? Is one wish enough to call down a god's wrath, since it's apparently practically Alter Reality? What about two? Three wishes and a miracle? Five miracles, a Wish, a psionic Reality Revision and a Limited Wish? No wishes, but you summon three genies and get them to grant you three apiece?

I was never saying that it was part of RAW, that was the other guy.

I do however think that it's a reasonable assumption that a deity of magic would consider a wizard using wish, basically at will to solve any problem that comes his way would fall under the umbrella of "abusing the gift of magic" that most deities of magic oppose.

I also think that miracle should've been a universal school spell, since the fluff of the spell is that the caster isn't so much casting a spell as petitioning a god for immediate aid. Burning the spell slot is just a mechanic for why some deity definitely hears it as opposed to it being a simple prayer that may go unanswered because the deity didn't notice.

Since it's not, it falls under the notion that it's frequent use is pulling divine power from the character's deity or the deity closest to the character's alignment and outlook at a rate high enough to be noticeable to him.

Again, none of this is RAW. It's just what, IMO, is a reasonable in-universe reason for the gods to sit up and take notice when a character is using this level of magical shenannigans.

[Flickerdart]

Since it's not, it falls under the notion that it's frequent use is pulling divine power from the character's deity or the deity closest to the character's alignment and outlook at a rate high enough to be noticeable to him.

Again, none of this is RAW. It's just what, IMO, is a reasonable in-universe reason for the gods to sit up and take notice when a character is using this level of magical shenannigans.
If the frequent use of Wish or Miracle pulls power from a god, then why does it matter whether one wizard casts it a bunch of times, or loads of them do it once? Surely the total "load" is the same, since the same amount of wishes/miracles is granted.

[gooddragon1]

Why not go for the 1d2 crusader and crank out infinite damage?

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the frequent use of Wish or Miracle pulls power from a god, then why does it matter whether one wizard casts it a bunch of times, or loads of them do it once? Surely the total "load" is the same, since the same amount of wishes/miracles is granted.

Because there's simply not that many casters capable of 9th level spells.

Here's some numbers that are rules to consider. In a metropolis which averages 62,500 people only 4 of them are high level wizards none of whom is capable of casting 9th level spells, 4 are high level clerics 2 of whom are capable of casting 9th level spells, 4 are high level druids 2 of whom are capable of casting 9th level spells, and 4 are high level sorcerers none of whom has access to 9th level spells. So in a city of 62,500 people 4 divine casters are capable of casting miracle if their wisdom is high enough, which isn't guaranteed. Standard array's highest stat is 13 which means that those 4 may be able to actually call on a miracle if they have pariapts of wisdom. PC class characters with PrC's or multiclassing are by definition exceptional characters and only exist either as PC's or by DM fiat.

Let's say for argument's sake that a typical D&D world is as populous as the real world, some 6 billion people world wide. A generous allowance, considering that most fantasy settings are pseudo-medieval and couldn't support that many people. That's 384,000 out of 6 billion people in the entire world, or 6.4 thousandths of a percent, capable of casting miracle 1.25 times a day if they all have pariapts of wisdom and have decided all on the same day, that a miracle is called for.

Edit: There are 19 gods in the PHB. Assuming (unreasonably) that each gets an equal distribution of those casters that's less than 26000 miracles if every single one of the casters capable casts miracle in the same day.

This hypothetical TO character though, can pull either wish or miracle, as many times in one day as he pleases, or certainly at least a dozen times. Both the distribution and frequency are noticable abberations compared to what's normal. Just under 5 hundreths of a percent compared to the 4 thousandths of a percent of the miracles used by any of the other casters. Even if they're not a significant drain on the deity's overall power, it's still an order of magnitude more power going to one place.

All deities can remotely sense any place they've been invoked and several miles around that point, if they choose to. Meaning that this character is noticed immediately by whatever god he calls on for the miracles.

If you decide that miracle is just a spell, deities of magic would have their portfolio sense triggered either immediately if they're of intermediate or lower rank, or at least 4 months in advance if they're greater deities, and IIRC most deities with the magic portfolio are greater deities.

When this happens, a deity -will- know about it. Which one may be up in the air, but guaranteed at least one will know.

Edit: oops forgot to divide by gods.

For reference, the only non-core source used is the ELH because without it the population of a metropolis is uncapped and an average figure can't be determined.

Also note that in actuallity the percentages will be higher and the totals will be lower because certain variables were allowed more than a little leeway.

[urkthegurk]

So you're saying that casting 9th level spells makes gods come and tell you to stop? I'm...honestly not sure what would lead you to believe that this is the case. Certainly one would think that the chapter on magic would at least give an off-hand mention along the lines of "oh, and if you actually use any of these, Kord comes over to your house and throws a brick through your window".

Using abilities an infinite amount of times isn't actually covered at all in the rules (its allowed, but not justified). I'm using the most basic motivations for TO, which are domination and self-defense.

[Augmental]

Look, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense the gods would get angry at someone for casting lots of miracles. Nowhere in the rules does it say that, and since this is a strict-RAW competition, you need to provide some rules text that says the gods will get angry at you for casting too many wishes/miracles/whatever, or it doesn't matter.

[dextercorvia]

Using abilities an infinite amount of times isn't actually covered at all in the rules (its allowed, but not justified). I'm using the most basic motivations for TO, which are domination and self-defense.

Agreed with Augmental, and no one is talking about NI Miracles. I'm talking about using a portion of my daily spells to cast miracle to replicate a spell from another list.

Nobody yells at the DMM Persist cleric, when he does this to grab Giant Size from the Wu Jen.

[Flickerdart]

When this happens, a deity -will- know about it. Which one may be up in the air, but guaranteed at least one will know.
I know they'll know. Nobody is saying they won't know. What I'm saying is they won't care, particularly not enough to actually do much of anything about it.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm still unsure on this. Would you mind actually walking me through the steps?


As Kazyan says, except that you can end the Magic Jar at will (avoiding contract violation), and give the LeShay the option of ending you instead of a cookie.



Once ya get to the contingency/interrupt war, its more about who can do it easier and without support.


There is a fair point here.



So far, I havn't seen this build show anything we havn't seen with the AMF archer.

Do you have a pointer? I haven't read it.

[Snowbluff]

Why not go for the 1d2 crusader and crank out infinite damage?

2 things:

1) Requires at least 13 Initiator level, which is a lot, and a Divine Spirit stance slot at that ilvl (which can be tricky, thanks to Crusader's messed up stance progression).

2) Require the ability to cast a [Cure] spell for Imbued Healing: Luck. THen he'd playing a caster and the premise would fall apart.

[Randomguy]

2 things:

1) Requires at least 13 Initiator level, which is a lot, and a Divine Spirit stance slot at that ilvl (which can be tricky, thanks to Crusader's messed up stance progression).

2) Require the ability to cast a [Cure] spell for Imbued Healing: Luck. THen he'd playing a caster and the premise would fall apart.

He's already got a level in beguiler and of cloistered cleric. His caster level is -3, though.

But 1d2 crusaders don't exactly make good mage killers: They win if they hit, but they don't really have much to stop the wizard from using celerity or abrupt jaunting away.



I have accepted several vulnerabilities, so this is incorrect.

But yes, I do need a better definition. Here's an attempt:
(1) Anything greater than twice the standard action economy.
(2) Any choose-your-own-reality effects like miracle, wish, epic spellcasting, and alter reality used on a regular basis.
(3) Anything breaking WBL.
(4) Anything involving immunity to damage.
(5) Any method of choosing an arbitrarily high stat.

2-5 are all reasonable (assuming you don't count crafting as breaking WBL), but #1 is a bit iffy: After all, any level 17 wizard could pull that off with shapechange into chronotyryn + quickened spells, not to even mention celerity.
Oh, and you forgot to mention: wizards that can bypass an antimagic field.

The "attract enemies due to miracle abuse" thing isn't really too much of a problem: the wizard doesn't necessarily NEED to abuse miracle or even wish to win: a custom magic item, or limited wish, works too. And that's to get favour of the martyr: there are other ways to bypass daze, like a couple of third eye clarities. You can only cast Wish once a day anyway with arcane disciple, and you'd need

Really though, even against a wizard that can't bypass AMF, unless you can get up close first, the wizard can stay away while dropping 40 cubic feet of shrunken lead, or lava, or acid, or trees on you every so often.



How exactly did you get your hide modifier so high? Skill ranks from your Leshay hit dice? Also, where does it say that you can make a tumble check to make a 10 foot step? It's not under the tumble or epic tumble skill in the SRD.

[dextercorvia]

No, he doesn't get skills from the LeShay.

@Anthrowhale: How do you reckon that you get the LeShay's feats?

[Anthrowhale]

Oh, and you forgot to mention: wizards that can bypass an antimagic field.


We decided on the most limited interpretation of IoM, that it allows you to cast spells in an AMF or DMZ, but that they are suppressed normally. This provides plenty of quirky possibilities, but it isn't so overwhelming as persistomancer + AMF doesn't apply.



a custom magic item, or limited wish, works too.


And I'm more comfortable with these choices.



Really though, even against a wizard that can't bypass AMF, unless you can get up close first, the wizard can stay away while dropping 40 cubic feet of shrunken lead, or lava, or acid, or trees on you every so often.


Outdoors, yes. Refl 48 should be helpful.



How exactly did you get your hide modifier so high? Skill ranks from your Leshay hit dice?


No, then it would be much higher. This is 23 ranks + 20 (dex) + 8 (racial, Collar of Umbrla Metamorphosis) +2 (masterwork clothes of stalking)



Also, where does it say that you can make a tumble check to make a 10 foot step? It's not under the tumble or epic tumble skill in the SRD.

Oriental Adventures, a DC 40 check.



@Anthrowhale: How do you reckon that you get the LeShay's feats?

The theory is that the bonus feats are not (Sp), (Su), or (Ex), so they are natural abilities, and the body always retains natural abilities under Magic Jar.

[Eldariel]

Why not go for the 1d2 crusader and crank out infinite damage?

Dealing damage is never the issue with a Wizard. If a Wizard gets hit and isn't immune to your attacks, you can assume he's going to die due to how easy it is to crank out extra damage from your attacks.

The issue with a Wizard is getting a drop on one and getting to the Wizard. Finding Wizards is of course nearly impossible and you can't chase them without magic so you basically need to make them come to some place and ambush them and kill/disable them before they can act (on high levels, Foresight and Celerity means you need to not only win initiative, but also be able to somehow intercept an immediate action; Contingency tied to Celerity and Craft Contingent Spell can add up to 21 more of these triggers if desired; Instant Refuge is a more restricted Teleport-version of this and there's few others).

If a Wizard does get to act he can in worst case scenario Teleport/Plane Shift away to a safe location and spend some time Divining you, figuring out exactly what you're capable of and engaging on his terms when he's found a way to beat you. He also has access to Time Stop, Gate and Shapechange most likely which gives him almost every single ability in the game in his disposal. Unless you can somehow block dimensional travel in a massive area (500+' AOE) or otherwise restrict the Wizard's movement (engaging in a dungeon where Burrow or Earth Glide can't be used and that's under a Dimension Lock/Forbiddance and the Wizard is somehow forced to enter, that could work) it's incredibly hard to lock down a Wizard even if you somehow reach one and can get the drop on them.

Also, Wizards have means to operate from a distant safe location (say, their own personal demiplane) with spells such as Astral Projection which further adds to the challenge of somehow reaching the real Wizard in the first place.

[metabolicjosh]

So far i have found that it is impossible for a wizard to be completely immune to damage.

Just use a Orb of acid with the following metamagics.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/consecrate-spell--416/
http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-vile-darkness--37/corrupt-spell--434/
Pick one Half the damage cant be reduced by anything by RAW.
I think that it means element resistance though...
Then get a disjunction cast on them first.

So again A CASTER IS NEEDED TO KILL A CASTER

[Anthrowhale]

but #1 is a bit iffy: After all, any level 17 wizard could pull that off with shapechange into chronotyryn + quickened spells, not to even mention celerity.


Let me add some detail to #1. Any choice of 2 things from the list below as long as you have a mechanic to achieve it:
(a) Standard + Move + Immediate or Swift
(b) Move + Move + Immediate or Swift
(c) Full-round + Immediate or Swift + Step

So, you and your other head with multivoice, you and your familiar, you and your schism, you and your contingencies, etc... can all have some real but maybe not overwhelming benefits. As far as I can recall at the moment, Timestop and Temporal Acceleration are the two spells which directly violate this. Let's say we allow them as an exception.

[Eldariel]

So far i have found that it is impossible for a wizard to be completely immune to damage.

Just use a Orb of acid with the following metamagics.
http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/consecrate-spell--416/
http://dndtools.eu/feats/book-of-vile-darkness--37/corrupt-spell--434/
Pick one Half the damage cant be reduced by anything by RAW.
I think that it means element resistance though...
Then get a disjunction cast on them first.

So again A CASTER IS NEEDED TO KILL A CASTER

Well, without a Disjunction, simple Persistent Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity means no matter how much damage the Wizard takes he survives. There's also the whole "Transform into something with Regeneration/Trollshape/Whatever -> Favor of the Martyr" which transforms all damage he takes into non-lethal damage which he's immune to. If the Regeneration has a vulnerability to Fire though, that's of course a problem due to Searing Spell so preferably something else is preferred. Still, there's a few ways to make damage not really matter. Of course, AMF mostly negates these issues.

[dextercorvia]

The theory is that the bonus feats are not (Sp), (Su), or (Ex), so they are natural abilities, and the body always retains natural abilities under Magic Jar.

I'm pretty sure feats are Ex, unless otherwise noted. And in the only cases I know of where they are otherwise noted, they are Su (like divine feats).

I'll see if I can dig up a quote.

Edit: BoED p39 is a good start.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know they'll know. Nobody is saying they won't know. What I'm saying is they won't care, particularly not enough to actually do much of anything about it.

Whether or not a deity cares is determined by the god's personality. While Boccob probably wouldn't give a rat's hind-quarters (what with the title "the uncaring") but mystra is a very active interventionist deity, at least until she was killed in the transition between 3.5 and 4E she was. The very fact that she has 9 chosen should be a strong indication of that.

Ultimately, you do have a point in that it's up to the DM whether there are any high level NPC's capable of doing anything about it or whether any god, that knows and cares, cares enough to act directly, but there are strong indications in the existing fluff that they would, and the mechanics more than give them the means to act if they choose, or to send powerful agents in their stead to deal with the "problem."

To ignore all of this is to place the competitors in a world where they exist alone. If that's what you want to do, then by all means do, but some context of the battlefield becomes necessary in that case. Is it a flat open plane/plain? Are there things to hide in/behind? how far apart do the characters start (anything from feet, to different planes is a possibility until it's actually stated)? How many planes are there and what is their nature, since we're not talking about any of the published settings (and core is greyhawk so even that's a setting.)?

Does the cosmology even allow for demiplanes? Shadow spells? astral travel (which by default includes all teleportation spells)?

[Flickerdart]

The very fact that she has 9 chosen should be a strong indication of that.
Or it's an indication that she's too lazy to do anything herself.



Ultimately, you do have a point in that it's up to the DM whether there are any high level NPC's capable of doing anything about it or whether any god, that knows and cares, cares enough to act directly, but there are strong indications in the existing fluff that they would, and the mechanics more than give them the means to act if they choose, or to send powerful agents in their stead to deal with the "problem."
If they're not there, then these alleged "strong indications" don't matter a lick.


To ignore all of this is to place the competitors in a world where they exist alone. If that's what you want to do, then by all means do, but some context of the battlefield becomes necessary in that case. Is it a flat open plane/plain? Are there things to hide in/behind? how far apart do the characters start (anything from feet, to different planes is a possibility until it's actually stated)?
Why would holding the battle in a published setting not need this? It's not like FR has a Designated Duel ArenaTM and everywhere else is a no PvP zone.



How many planes are there and what is their nature, since we're not talking about any of the published settings (and core is greyhawk so even that's a setting.)?

Does the cosmology even allow for demiplanes? Shadow spells? astral travel (which by default includes all teleportation spells)?
The spells work in a default way, which is then changed by specific settings. "The rules work like it says in the book" is an assumption that forms the basis for discussions like these, and saucing up the cosmology one way or the other must be mentioned in the scenario or can be safely disregarded. And since there is no DM intervention, there is also no deific intervention. Quite simple.

[Kelb_Panthera]

if they're not there, then these "alleged" indications don't matter a lick.

If there are no gods you have have a DM decide who's granting the miracles. No DM + no gods = no miracles.


why would holding the battle in a published setting not need this? It would, but the ramifications of the answers change dramatically. In particular some answers raise more questions. I've covered some of them in the next part you quoted.


The spells work in the default way. The "default way" is determined by the published cosmology of greyhawk, as layed out in the DMG. If we're not in greyhawk then a cosmology has to be determined if these spells are to work at all. Without a published setting, a setting has to be devised for these characters to do battle in, because the setting elements can have a tremendous impact on the outcome of the battle. For example, if the battle is to take place on abier toril of the forgotten realms setting, on an underdark battlefield, then both competitors will have to deal with faerzress, a magical radiation that disrupts teleportation and divination.

My ultimate point is this: You can't really be certain who will win unless you are aware of all of the factors that may affect the battle. In some settings, the gods will be a factor.

[Flickerdart]

My ultimate point is this: You can't really be certain who will win unless you are aware of all of the factors that may affect the battle. In some settings, the gods will be a factor.
And my point is this: The gods are controlled by the DM, and the DM is not a factor, hence the gods are not a factor. Real rules that matter have a clear "if X, then Y" relationship. Gods don't; every DM would play them differently, and so their presence ruins the validity of the test of builds.

[urkthegurk]

Gods aren't always controlled by the DM. There are ways for a player to become a god. If these two characters are PCs (a point of mine you never addressed) then it is easy to posit the existence of more PCs. If they are NPCs then clearly they are 'moving of their own free will' or in other words, we are making choices for them, exchanging hypotheticals, discussing possible scenarios, how the match could go, etc.

So why can't we include possible scenarios where gods get involved? In an infinite multiverse with infinite iterations of this same battle, sometimes they won't. What I want to see is problem solving around the issue of attracting the attention of not just gods, but high level casters etc. I think its a valid reason why character builds that break certain limits on action economy, number of miracle effects, etc might not actually be good builds in any plausible world. I am suggesting taking this battle out of your flat featureless plain and putting it in the Tippyverse or wherever, someplace where actions actually have repercussions.

If you want it to be strictly TO then sure, I'll say its Pun-Pun who comes down and kills you. Pun-Pun is jealous of his power, which only he has attained, and can reach across infinite planes to crush you with his infinite strength. I'm not sure how this is really different from Zeus or whoever, but hey, whatever gods TO recognizes will do.

Or we can assume that these are the two most powerful people in the multiverse, and take it from there. Of course, we will have to limit all other characters to below level 4...

[Flickerdart]

...and you don't realize why what you're proposing makes threads such as these meaningless? In order for a battle to test the proposed build to exist and be at all useful to anyone, what you are saying must be false. Ergo, there is no divine intervention in the scenario, because with divine intervention, it could not meaningfully take place.

[metabolicjosh]

Ok you Know What! If gods intervene than Mystria & Bahamut Are on my side!
Why? Initiate of mystria!
And Dragonborn!
So i have two of the strongest gods ever on my side!

If i was a god and one of my followers was able to become a god. I would help him! Why because if i have a enemy god.(they do) I would want allies!
SO DROP THE GOD INTERVENING THING!

Below is DM FIAT that would most often be used. Disregard if you want.
Also I would like you to know that the build you have wont allow you to attack me without cause. Because you will lose a few feats and class fetures!
Most wizards are just chaotic neutral. So you still take a moral hit from just plain trying to kill one.

[Kelb_Panthera]

...and you don't realize why what you're proposing makes threads such as these meaningless? In order for a battle to test the proposed build to exist and be at all useful to anyone, what you are saying must be false. Ergo, there is no divine intervention in the scenario, because with divine intervention, it could not meaningfully take place.

These threads are meaningless. They have been ever since pun pun was discovered.

That doesn't make them cease to be entertaining.

Pointing out the notion that in some hypothetical reality one or both of these characters either couldn't exist or would be nerfed by the powers that be is just as valid a source of entertainment as the builds themselves, or any competition that might be held with them.

I don't know about the other guy, but I never once said that these characters absolutely couldn't exist by RAW or that RAW would demand the gods smite them, and as such continuing to discuss them was pointless or wrong.

I don't think the other guy was saying that either, but I'll let him make his own statement.

[urkthegurk]

I'm not. Its a great discussion. And I'm not just talking about gods either. If they're just too DM-like, I have mentioned other examples.



...and you don't realize why what you're proposing makes threads such as these meaningless? In order for a battle to test the proposed build to exist and be at all useful to anyone, what you are saying must be false. Ergo, there is no divine intervention in the scenario, because with divine intervention, it could not meaningfully take place.


I can think of countless examples of this scenario playing out, taking outside intervention into account, and still be meaningful. It may not be 'at all useful' to you, but that's just your priorities superseding mine, which is of course fine for your own though experiments. But I really just don't get why you reject the proposal wholesale. You can summon djinn but none of them will get involved on their own? WHY?

You're the one deciding its not meaningful. That's fine. Just stop telling me what I find useful, please.

[Flickerdart]

You can summon djinn but none of them will get involved on their own? WHY?
Exactly! Why would they? I summon a djinn if I want a wish from it. I don't grant wishes, the genie can't summon me. Neither of the two necessary conditions exists.

[Korivan]

My bad, my pointer was avoid AMF as the cornerstone of the build.

I only say that cause my wizards like the blanket the area with it and use Deceptive/invisible/silent spell under the effects of (can't remember name but it was like tensers transformation but geared towards rouge, its in the spell compendium), to deliver touch spells but make them flat foot. I figure if I can negate magical defenses like rings of protection/spells, traditional armor (touch attack), and catch them flat foot (negate DEX, dodge, many others), then I'm golden. They either use Initiate of Mystra, an item we made up inspired by the Wheel of Time series. In emergency, there's a couple of WOTC spells that will let a arcane caster flee magically even in AMF.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Exactly! Why would they? I summon a djinn if I want a wish from it. I don't grant wishes, the genie can't summon me. Neither of the two necessary conditions exists.

if you call a djin, then someone has to adjudicate the negotiation required to get a wish out of it. If there's noone to adjudicate, no DM, then what you can do is call a djin, full stop. The djin can grant a wish, but by calling him into the equation you're making decisions for two characters, not one.

Alternately, you can force the djin to grant a wish by using debuffs and domination effects, but then he has every reason to do whatever's in his power to try and end you, unless you kill him.

Logical consequence to calling, enslaving, and murdering multiple djin: an organized group of djin decide they want you dead and start seeking to kill you directly and/or start seeking out your enemies to grant them wishes to use against you.

[Lord_Gareth]

I think that the argument that gods would come in and nerf the wizard in order to give this fighter a chance is very telling with regards to aforementioned sword-slinger's odds of success, myself.

[Flickerdart]

if you call a djin, then someone has to adjudicate the negotiation required to get a wish out of it. If there's noone to adjudicate, no DM, then what you can do is call a djin, full stop. The djin can grant a wish, but by calling him into the equation you're making decisions for two characters, not one.

Alternately, you can force the djin to grant a wish by using debuffs and domination effects, but then he has every reason to do whatever's in his power to try and end you, unless you kill him.

Logical consequence to calling, enslaving, and murdering multiple djin: an organized group of djin decide they want you dead and start seeking to kill you directly and/or start seeking out your enemies to grant them wishes to use against you.
Again, that's all subjective DM-based stuff. There are no consequences to binding stuff other than what the DM decides which, again, is not terribly useful in determining the usefulness of OP's build because every DM is going to decide things differently.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Again, that's all subjective DM-based stuff. There are no consequences to binding stuff other than what the DM decides which, again, is not terribly useful in determining the usefulness of OP's build because every DM is going to decide things differently.

Right, binding the djinn does nothing except get a djin in front of you without a dm. As soon as that djinn takes any action at all, the wizard isn't participating in a duel anymore, he's getting his buddies to come help him kick the fighters butt.

If he were summoned I wouldn't bat an eye. Summon monster X explicitly says that the creature serves to the best of its ability for the duration, unfortunately for the wizard it also says that summoned creatures won't use any ability that burns XP or any SPL that mimics a spell that burns XP.

Using a calling spell explicitly gets a creature in front of you, be it binding or ally, but the service performed by the creature, and its associated cost, is left to DM adjudication. Therefore calling affects can't be used under your definition of TO, because there is no DM to adjudicate.

Forcing the creature to act via domination is still taking the situation out of "dueling" territory because that's giving the wizard an encounter (regardless of how trivial it might be) before the fight.

Either there is no world and we're just comparing the two characters because they're the only two that exist, or there is a world and the characters have to deal with logical consequences to certain actions.

[Augmental]

If the wizard doesn't get to call creatures, then the fighter shouldn't get any magic items unless the crafts them himself, or get to switch bodies with a LeShay, because then he's relying on others just as much as the wizard would be. It's only fair.

[Killer Angel]

If the wizard doesn't get to call creatures, then the fighter shouldn't get any magic items unless the crafts them himself

Those are not the same things, and you know it.

[Boci]

Those are not the same things, and you know it.

Probably. What about no custom magical items then (that he didn't craft himself)?

[Killer Angel]

Probably. What about no custom magical items then (that he didn't craft himself)?

On that, I could agree.

[ahenobarbi]

Probably. What about no custom magical items then (that he didn't craft himself)?

After all there are no rules that allow custom magic items (only guidelines for DM).

[dextercorvia]

If the wizard isn't allowed to call things, then neither should he. He gated in the leShay in order borrow its body. That also is the sort of thing that was just being argued would require DM adjudication.

Frankly, the same argument applies to persuading any creature to allow him to magic jar it.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm pretty sure feats are Ex, unless otherwise noted. And in the only cases I know of where they are otherwise noted, they are Su (like divine feats).


It's not the feat you need to worry about, but rather the granting of the feat. It's listed under "Elf Traits" and has no (Ex), (Su) or (Sp) qualifier.


My bad, my pointer was avoid AMF as the cornerstone of the build.

I don't follow.


If the wizard isn't allowed to call things, then neither should he. He gated in the leShay in order borrow its body. That also is the sort of thing that was just being argued would require DM adjudication.


Gate is a very powerful spell, and in a setting where it is nerfed down to reasonable power levels, I'd need to redo this build again. Note that the use of gate is a 1/life activity, as the character literally dies afterwards.



Frankly, the same argument applies to persuading any creature to allow him to magic jar it.

It's not persuasion, it's service. Read the Gate description.

[ahenobarbi]

It's not persuasion, it's service. Read the Gate description.

So is wizard planar-binding whatever ([s]he|it) want's :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

It's not persuasion, it's service. Read the Gate description.

I responded to that earlier in the the same post. If using Gate to compel an Efreet or Djinn to grant you wishes is out (as they were arguing a moment earlier*), then any use of Gate to compel a creature to perform a service is out.

*
Using a calling spell explicitly gets a creature in front of you, be it binding or ally, but the service performed by the creature, and its associated cost, is left to DM adjudication. Therefore calling affects can't be used under your definition of TO, because there is no DM to adjudicate.

The part that you are responding to, was me saying that without Gate, you are back to persuasion, which would require DM adjudication.

Edit: Gate is easily arguable to be more powerful than Miracle, since it can be used to receive the benefit of mulitple wishes. If you are eliminating my access to Miracle, then I would be within my rights to request that you do this without Gate. I haven't actually asked for that yet, because I'm still hoping that you will see that Miracle within the defined limits that don't require adjudication is a perfectly reasonable, if powerful option.

I will request that any build you want to fight me with doesn't use custom items, since there are no rules for their creation that doesn't involve a DM.

[Anthrowhale]

I responded to that earlier in the the same post.


I see, I mixed the discussions.

(1) If superpowerful beings wanted to avoid threats from below, what would they gimp (by changing rules or evolutionary means)?

(2) Which gimping of a wizard is required to make a fight interesting? (The unbounded discussion)

Both are interesting. For (1), gimping Gate is definitely required as the "control caster level x 2 HD" is a strong power amplifier. Just "control caster level HD" would be a good step.

In general, I'm not sure that you need to forbid miracle/wish, but rather make it rare (i.e. not for daily buffing.) and never free (the Efreeti League eliminates any wizards that attempt this). Tomes&Manuals exist, but never used in an encounter or on a daily buffing basis.

For (2), I don't think gimping gate is required, but doing so helps the fighter. Do you want to throw out the spell? Or gimp it in some other way?



I will request that any build you want to fight me with doesn't use custom items, since there are no rules for their creation that doesn't involve a DM.

That's not unreasonable, but it will require quite a bit more rebuilding as that's much of the WBL in this build. Do you think it's necessary for the wizard to win?

[dextercorvia]

That's not unreasonable, but it will require quite a bit more rebuilding as that's much of the WBL in this build. Do you think it's necessary for the wizard to win?

No, certainly not necessary. It is essentially purchasing spell slots with WBL, however. By using them, you are stipulating that casting is required to defeat casting, which is kind of a known thing.

The main reasons that I want to disallow them, is

(a) The guidelines aren't rules,.
(b) They are too easily breakable when the guidelines are treated as rules.
(c) Because, of (a) and (b) I have never done much optimization with what would be allowed if the guidelines were rules, and therefore would need to add what is essentially learning a new subsystem on top of building an optimized level 20 wizard. I don't have that kind of time.

To a lesser extent, what I said earlier is also a reason. If we allowed them, then I would use them to have access to spells not on my list -- which is the thing you were balking at my use of Miracle for.

I could build a level 20 Fighter that can cast Miracle several times/day. I wouldn't refer to that build as a mundane mage killer, however.

[urkthegurk]

I think that the argument that gods would come in and nerf the wizard in order to give this fighter a chance is very telling with regards to aforementioned sword-slinger's odds of success, myself.

It does! :P Sword-slingers live in a world surrounded by powerful soul-warping magic, etc, which they probably only minimally understand. Their only defense against this is a point bit of (enchanted??) steel. They're completely toast. Their best chance is to hope wizards ignore them, so this build is probably completely self-defeating. A wizard will know the fighter's plans even before the fighter does. The only way the fighter can hope to have any impact is by acting as a proxy of a larger power, e.g. another wizard.

This is an excellent role-playing archetype (Fafhr and the Grey Mouser for starters).


If the wizard doesn't get to call creatures, then the fighter shouldn't get any magic items unless the crafts them himself, or get to switch bodies with a LeShay, because then he's relying on others just as much as the wizard would be. It's only fair.

I'm arguing that both SHOULD be able to use these abilities, but that abuse of certain powers is going to get you killed. Like binding the LeShay against its will or killing it, or a fighter build with infinite miracles.


If the wizard isn't allowed to call things, then neither should he. He gated in the leShay in order borrow its body. That also is the sort of thing that was just being argued would require DM adjudication.

Frankly, the same argument applies to persuading any creature to allow him to magic jar it.

Diplomacy is a class skill. I submit that any build that relies on un-coerced support should use it. Its different for magic items though! They have a listed cost. I think custom magic items could reasonably be 'banned' though, but I'd still like to see ideas for those items and so on. You should just supply a version with and without it, if you're so inclined.


No, certainly not necessary. It is essentially purchasing spell slots with WBL, however. By using them, you are stipulating that casting is required to defeat casting, which is kind of a known thing.

The main reasons that I want to disallow them, is

(a) The guidelines aren't rules,.
(b) They are too easily breakable when the guidelines are treated as rules.
(c) Because, of (a) and (b) I have never done much optimization with what would be allowed if the guidelines were rules, and therefore would need to add what is essentially learning a new subsystem on top of building an optimized level 20 wizard. I don't have that kind of time.

To a lesser extent, what I said earlier is also a reason. If we allowed them, then I would use them to have access to spells not on my list -- which is the thing you were balking at my use of Miracle for.

I could build a level 20 Fighter that can cast Miracle several times/day. I wouldn't refer to that build as a mundane mage killer, however.

A mundane mage fighter would just be a dead mage killer. We're talking about an inferior combatant going against a godling. And suggesting potential ways they could win. In any scenario, its a bit of a stretch.

The 'subsystem' is just application of the diplomacy skill. Sure, as a DM I'd require a lot of role-playing. But for TO, its just dice. Make a build that can reliably pass the test, and we can consider a scenario where they succeed. I submit we use the Giant's alternative diplomacy mechanics, because they're more symmetrical.

And I think a lot of wizards share your sentiment about not having time for diplomacy. That's probably why its not on their skill list.

[dextercorvia]

My second post was not in response to anything about diplomacy, but about the custom magic item guidelines.

[urkthegurk]

Right. Sorry.

Still! I think my point about diplomacy works?

[dextercorvia]

Right. Sorry.

Still! I think my point about diplomacy works?

The problem with using diplomacy to convince a creature to let you cast a spell on it (especially magic jar), is that while you can use diplomacy to affect the creature's attitude, it requires a DM to decide whether they will perform the specific task that you ask.

Suppose I have a good friend Steve. He'll help me move, he'll have my back in a fight. He'll even keep a secret. He wouldn't let me perform surgery on him. But, we're really good friends.

[urkthegurk]

But these things can be assigned DCs. Sure, the DC for you to convince Steve to allow you to perform surgery on him would be ridiculously high. Unless you were an actual surgeon. And presuming you needed to do surgery for a reason, not just for fun. But lets assume you're neither of those things, and assign a DC.
Steve is level 2 and has a wisdom of 12.

So the DC would be base 18, modified by: (friend)-7, (terrible risk)+10, for a DC of 21. I'd argue since the risk is a very real chance of death, the DC might be a lot higher, say 31, or even impossible, in the same way dominated creatures won't act suicidal or against their nature.

For a Djinn, the DC is 15 base +10 hd +2 Wis, with modifiers +2(Acquaintance (Negative)), and +5 (Unfavorable.) The Djinn has been summoned from its home plane with little or no warning, and asked to serve the demands of a power mad wizard. It is likely to get in trouble if the wishes it grants go out of control, and since you can't argue really that this use of wish is 'under control', you can't easily convince it without a liberal use of bluff. So the DC is 34.

If the Djinn is likely to be in danger, the DC shoots up to 39.

Now, there are plenty of ways to pass this DC easily. Just use them.

[Randomguy]

This is a fighter v. wizard thread. Not a "who can get the most guys to beat each other up" thread. In which case both fighter and wizard would have an NI amount of identical twins with the exact same abilities. We can safely disregard diplomacy and calling spells, except for out of combat (for example, the LeShay trick).

Also, disallowing or nerfing gate would only hurt the fighter in this case, funnily enough. The mage slayer here uses gate to get a LeShay body, which is a huge power boost: it gives him an extra +20 to all dex based skills and adds a +20 insight bonus to AC, as well as a huge dex bonus to AC. The wizard can use this trick too, but it matters much less.

Meanwhile, the fighter's AC is so high that almost nothing can hit him, including most 50HD outsiders. But even with a nerfed gate, a wizard can pull in a few Black Ethergaunts (16hd), with level 17 wizard casting, to help. They're probably one of the best things to call in, even if Gate isn't nerfed.

Oh, and I finally found a way to actually hit the fighter! Funnily enough, it only works when he's in an antimagic field. While the AMF is active, the mage killer's Hathran Mask and his Foresight item aren't working, which means that he can be flat footed, and he can be tricked by illusions. So the wizard casts Greater Invisibility and the fighter loses his +20 dex bonus to AC, lowering his touch AC to 62. (unless I screwed something up here, in which case please correct me)

So now the wizard actually has a chance of hitting (touch attack bonus = 10 (BAB) + 20 (quickened true strike) + 2 (invisible) + 20 (LeShay dex) = +52, hits on a 10), and instead of having to evade the fighter while dropping shrunken things on him (which would probably require a reflex save, which would almost never fail), could now evade the fighter while throwing Maximized Empowered Searing Spell Twinned Energy Gestalt Orbs of Fire (with either metamagic reducers or free metamagic) at him. Which would kill him in 2 rounds, or 4 if he's got fire immunity.

Oh, by the way, what's the fighter's attack bonus for each attack? If the wizard uses the leshay body trick, his AC is around 60, even without items or PrC's to boost Shield and Mage Armour. (AC would be 52 in an AMF).

Also, I'm not sure the average damage per attack is exactly accurate: as was already pointed out, the wizard isn't flat footed even in an AMF, since foresight stops them from being flat footed when combat starts. When they get into the AMF, there's no more foresight, but they don't retroactively become flat footed. So you're stuck doing about 25 damage a hit (shadowblade 20, daggers 2, 3 knowledge devotion).

Hang on a sec: You said you didn't think the wizard could Iron Heart Surge away AMF, but you can Iron Heart Surge away Silence? What gives?

[dextercorvia]

But these things can be assigned DCs. Sure, the DC for you to convince Steve to allow you to perform surgery on him would be ridiculously high. Unless you were an actual surgeon. And presuming you needed to do surgery for a reason, not just for fun. But lets assume you're neither of those things, and assign a DC.
Steve is level 2 and has a wisdom of 12.

So the DC would be base 18, modified by: (friend)-7, (terrible risk)+10, for a DC of 21. I'd argue since the risk is a very real chance of death, the DC might be a lot higher, say 31, or even impossible, in the same way dominated creatures won't act suicidal or against their nature.

For a Djinn, the DC is 15 base +10 hd +2 Wis, with modifiers +2(Acquaintance (Negative)), and +5 (Unfavorable.) The Djinn has been summoned from its home plane with little or no warning, and asked to serve the demands of a power mad wizard. It is likely to get in trouble if the wishes it grants go out of control, and since you can't argue really that this use of wish is 'under control', you can't easily convince it without a liberal use of bluff. So the DC is 34.

If the Djinn is likely to be in danger, the DC shoots up to 39.

Now, there are plenty of ways to pass this DC easily. Just use them.

This is using the Giant's houserules. There is not way to assign a DC to this within RAW that doesn't involve DM adjudication. IIRC, even the Giant's rules still have the DM deciding on the circumstance modifiers.

@Randomguy: I am aware that disallowing gate would disadvantage the fighter, more. I was just pointing out that all of his arguments against miracle, applied to gate as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the wizard isn't allowed to call things, then neither should he. He gated in the leShay in order borrow its body. That also is the sort of thing that was just being argued would require DM adjudication.

Frankly, the same argument applies to persuading any creature to allow him to magic jar it.

Agreed.

I'd only give it a pass in this case, because both opponents have used the same trick.

I also agree that with the strict definition of TO where it's assumed there is no DM and no resonable consequence to actions taken before the "duel," that custom items should be out too.

Of course at that point, the fighter is almost helpless in front of a wizard, no matter how well built.

Then again, most anything that's not a StP erudite is just as screwed. Even the artificer is just a mage's disjunction from being a sub-standard rogue. Though an archivist might hold up reasonably well, or a planar sheperd druid.

[Anthrowhale]

By using them, you are stipulating that casting is required to defeat casting, which is kind of a known thing.


Eliminating custom magic items doesn't change this equation, as standard items (AMF Torc, Hathran Mask, etc...) are also effectively casting spells.

But, I disagree with the equation to some extent. Going up against a wizard without any magical support would be impressive, but succeeding with some magical support still has some meaning.



I don't have that kind of time.


I run into that as well :)



I could build a level 20 Fighter that can cast Miracle several times/day. I wouldn't refer to that build as a mundane mage killer, however.

I'd object to the routine Miracle's, and you to the strategy, I guess.

We can drop custom magic items if you prefer. That's very nerfing for this build as I don't see any other reasonable way to get immediate actions for a fighter. You get more points for not nerfing the fighter.

What do you want to do with Gate?


diplomacy

Diplomacy seems very useful in a campaign and very difficult to handle outside of a campaign. I'd rather not rely on it.



Also, disallowing or nerfing gate would only hurt the fighter in this case, funnily enough.


I'm not sure this is correct. Gate remains a very powerful option by RAW for the wizard---there are quite a few nasty critters. The previous AMF fighter discussion led to the LeShay as a gate monster.



So the wizard casts Greater Invisibility and the fighter loses his +20 dex bonus to AC, lowering his touch AC to 62.


Uncanny Dodge from Fate domain is in effect.



Oh, by the way, what's the fighter's attack bonus for each attack?


It depends on the routine, but tops out at ~40.



When they get into the AMF, there's no more foresight, but they don't retroactively become flat footed.


They do, according to the rules, if the wizard's turn hasn't come up yet.



Hang on a sec: You said you didn't think the wizard could Iron Heart Surge away AMF, but you can Iron Heart Surge away Silence? What gives?

I said he couldn't Iron Heart Surge for Thicket of Blades. If Silence targets the build, and the save is failed, it can be Iron Heart Surged as a condition. Iron Heart Surge in an AMF would be useless as the emanation would continue. If the silence simply targeted a nearby area, then it couldn't be Iron Heart Surged for the same reason (of course, walking away becomes effective).

[TuggyNE]

with the strict definition of TO where it's assumed there is no DM and no resonable consequence to actions taken before the "duel," [...] the fighter is almost helpless in front of a wizard, no matter how well built.

Quoted, because this is essentially what all such discussions have come down to before (that I've seen). For TO purposes, it's astonishingly difficult to get a Fighter (or even a Beguiler/BattleDancer/Fighter/Monk/Swordsage/Crusader/Warblade/Cloistered Cleric monstrosity*) to be able to stand up to a Wizard in open-ended combat.


*I left out the prestige classes.

EDITED TO ADD:
Also, I'm not sure the average damage per attack is exactly accurate: as was already pointed out, the wizard isn't flat footed even in an AMF, since foresight stops them from being flat footed when combat starts. When they get into the AMF, there's no more foresight, but they don't retroactively become flat footed. So you're stuck doing about 25 damage a hit (shadowblade 20, daggers 2, 3 knowledge devotion).

I believe the build is designed to use a skill trick to get this.

[dextercorvia]

I'm going to reverse myself. I'll allow the custom magic items. It means I'll require a bit longer to make my build, but I can largely replace the few miracles I would have used with 1/day items. Keep your leShay form. I will agree not to use Gate, Miracle, or Wish during combat or buff. I take it, that you would prefer I not use Craft Contingent Spell? I ask that I may keep Contingency (the spell), and Limited Wish.

For battlefield, I suggest a featureless space. Lighting conditions are your choice. I presume you will want at least shadowy, for your HiPS.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Successful mage-killers in actual play rely on a few things to get the job done that just don't hold up in TO. They are; surprise, magical effects designed to counter the most common wizardly methods of offense and defense, and ;by far the most important one; human error.

In TO two of these things don't happen, unless there are two completed builds, a world for them to engage in, and two human players to make errors.

It's also generally assumed, in actual play, that most wizards simply don't have a broad enough understanding of the entirety of magic to actually put together the truly earth-shatteringly powerful combos.

What reason, in character, does the typical diviner have to research polymorph spells?

How many wizards of any specialty, other than transmutation, care so little about their own body that they'd be willing to change it drastically, regularly, and; on occasion; permanently? Seriously, we're not talking about a couple of piercings or a tattoo. We're talking change yourself into an entirely different species, often without even the same basic body type.

Why would a wizard that isn't a conjurer bother learning magic circle when protection from X gets the most important aspect of the spell for a much smaller investment of his power? It's only useful if you're going to be calling creatures, and that means negotiating contracts or abusing creatures until they capitulate. Many people think of the former as rather unpleasant and the latter as just plain wrong.

And that's just wizards. Sorcerers gain their gifts through either intuition or from being taught by another sorcerous caster. Who's to say they'll even have access to the right spells for those combos, in-character.


I'm not sure if I had a point to this post anymore, but hopefully it'll provide food for thought.

[Wings of Peace]

Not a bad build. I like it. I won't say Pun Pun because that's a cheater's answer. I will say that an equally optimized caster would still probably win though. My proposed counter would be an Ardent (Magic) 1/Wizard 3/Mind Mage 10. Formerly Vecna Blooded Elan for Race.

Primary Tricks:

-Versatile Spellcaster (qualified for via Magical Training)

-Infinite Power Points (Body Fuel/Strongheart Vest combo. Ability Burn is a form of Ability Damage.)

-Infinite Spells per day. (Extra Spell: Miracle [to cast Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer] + Focus of Discipline [to lower Miracle to a 1st level spell.] Each casting profits us two 1st level slots that we can use to cast any of our other spells [also lowered to 1st level via Focus of Discipline.]

-Free Metamagic (Infinite Power Points + Compensation)

-Shun/Embrace Chaos Shuffle + Location Feats.

-Massive Damage Mitigation (Bazillions of Power Points + Elan Resilience)

Casting in Anti-Magic zones is facilitated via a 1st level Invoke Magic spell to either cast or escape the zone. Assume caster uses no psionic powers as all of his power points are being used to fuel his casting abilities.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Where can I find mindmage? I've been looking for something like that.

*crosses fingers* please don't be dragon, please don't be dragon......

[metabolicjosh]

I think that the infinite pp combo is amazing. I could never get my mind mags build finished. But now you have inspired me

[Wings of Peace]

Where can I find mindmage? I've been looking for something like that.

*crosses fingers* please don't be dragon, please don't be dragon......

Tragically it's originally it's from Dragon 313. This site (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) has the class up too and as far as I can tell it's completely accurate. People's opinions vary but imo Mind Mage has the single highest optimization potential of any caster prc.


I think that the infinite pp combo is amazing. I could never get my mind mags build finished. But now you have inspired me

Thanks! Glad I could be helpful. :smallredface:

[Flickerdart]

Mind Mage is 3.0 material. Since the entire 3.0 Psionics system was overhauled, using it with 3.5 psionics is extremely suspect.

[Wings of Peace]

Mind Mage is 3.0 material. Since the entire 3.0 Psionics system was overhauled, using it with 3.5 psionics is extremely suspect.

Given that we're allowed to use Shun/Embrace the dark chaos shenanigans in this discussion I don't think using a 3.0 psionic/arcanist prc is -that- suspect.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm going to reverse myself. I'll allow the custom magic items. It means I'll require a bit longer to make my build, but I can largely replace the few miracles I would have used with 1/day items. Keep your leShay form. I will agree not to use Gate, Miracle, or Wish during combat or buff. I take it, that you would prefer I not use Craft Contingent Spell? I ask that I may keep Contingency (the spell), and Limited Wish.


Craft Contingent spell is ok, as long as you pay the x10 expendables cost on the XP and take note of the action limits. The logic here is that if your build's survival strategy involves dependence on expendables, then it's probably expending them in previous encounters as well. I'm ok with Gate (10K XP), Wish (50K XP), and Limited Wish (3K XP) during the encounter under those terms. Miracles only nonroutinely. Let's assume a reservoir of 19999XP past L20.



For battlefield, I suggest a featureless space. Lighting conditions are your choice. I presume you will want at least shadowy, for your HiPS.

A perpetual game of keep away doesn't sound interesting, so I'd prefer a more confined battlefield. Perhaps a featureless half sphere of radius 250' and gravity down?

[dextercorvia]

Craft Contingent spell is ok, as long as you pay the x10 expendables cost on the XP and take note of the action limits.

A perpetual game of keep away doesn't sound interesting, so I'd prefer a more confined battlefield. Perhaps a featureless half sphere of radius 250' and gravity down?

What action limits do you have in mind, specifically?

That's a little tight, but it could work. Let's make it a cylinder, 250' high, though. I would rather not have to keep checking the Pythagorean theorem to see if a move is legal.

I would like free placement within our respective halves. One of the things I think you need to show is that you can pinpoint the wizard once you are nearby.

[Anthrowhale]

What action limits do you have in mind, specifically?


Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13848602&postcount=170)



That's a little tight, but it could work. Let's make it a cylinder, 250' high, though. I would rather not have to keep checking the Pythagorean theorem to see if a move is legal.


250' cube to eliminate all Pythagorean checks.



I would like free placement within our respective halves. One of the things I think you need to show is that you can pinpoint the wizard once you are nearby.

I can't comment without a build, but this is an important question.

[Kuulvheysoon]

-Infinite Power Points (Body Fuel/Strongheart Vest combo. Ability Burn is a form of Ability Damage.)

You're running into the same disputed territory as a Strongheart Hellfire Warlock - if you take no ability damage due to the soulmeld, do you really reap it's benefits?

As an aside, where is Focus of Discipline from - Dragon?

[dextercorvia]

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13848602&postcount=170)



250' cube to eliminate all Pythagorean checks.



I can't comment without a build, but this is an important question.

I had missed that. I find it limiting, but I presume that a triggered contingency which doesn't actually cast celerity (or its kin) is not part of that system.

A 250' cube is considerably smaller. We'd have approximately the same volume as you proposed with a 300' cube.

I'm working on the build, but trying to iron out specific limits before I get too far.

[Anthrowhale]

I had missed that. I find it limiting, but I presume that a triggered contingency which doesn't actually cast celerity (or its kin) is not part of that system.


Right.



A 250' cube is considerably smaller. Wed have approximately the same volume as you proposed with a 300' cube.


Let's do a 300' cube.

[dextercorvia]

Did we ever specify sources?

[Essence_of_War]

a) Not really; you said that it'd probably cut limbs off as it expands, which is not supported by RAW, and you said that you would have time to "initiate a grapple before it falls at 1 gravity movement speeds", which implies you've suddenly decided that physics were a relevant argument in a thread debating whether or not you may attack someone wearing a magical hat made of lead enchanted to stay tiny up until someone decides to disrupt the flow of magic in its area, which I submit is a rather unconventional time to bring up your love of newtonian movement.


I'm exceedingly late to this thread, but this was the funniest thing that I've read all week.

ILM, award yourself as many internets as you desire. :smallbiggrin:

[Wings of Peace]

You're running into the same disputed territory as a Strongheart Hellfire Warlock - if you take no ability damage due to the soulmeld, do you really reap it's benefits?

As an aside, where is Focus of Discipline from - Dragon?

My general logic is that Body Fuel first has to Trigger in order for Strongheart Vest to take effect so by the time Strongheart Vest activates Body Fuel has already triggered. You're right that it's heavily debated though. All things being as they are it doesn't matter a lot, there are other loops we can use for infinite power points if the Body Fuel/Strongheart Vest combo doesn't work.

Focus of Discipline is a 7th level Mind Mage class ability. Here's a link (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) to the prc since I've forgotten if I posted one earlier. It's not an official WoTC website I'm pretty sure but it checks out against the Mind Mage in my copy of Dragon.

[Anthrowhale]

I will say that an equally optimized caster would still probably win though.

Likely so. Dextercorvia has already agreed to some serious nerfing and is still likely to win.



My proposed counter would be an Ardent (Magic) 1/Wizard 3/Mind Mage 10.


That's a pretty amazingly broken class, and yet you still didn't come up with a kill combo. How would you do it? Note that Invoke Magic is not too useful in the context of Mage Slayer and Elan Resilience is only 1/round.


Did we ever specify sources?

Valid 3.5? While avoiding mixing multiple campaign settings.

[Eldariel]

That's a pretty amazingly broken class, and yet you still didn't come up with a kill combo. How would you do it? Note that Invoke Magic is not too useful in the context of Mage Slayer and Elan Resilience is only 1/round.

Eh, he does have infinite action loops and such there; I'd think it's kind of trivial at that point. Surge of Fortune + Big Orb (take 20 on the attack roll) for instance?

[Wings of Peace]

Likely so. Dextercorvia has already agreed to some serious nerfing and is still likely to win.



That's a pretty amazingly broken class, and yet you still didn't come up with a kill combo. How would you do it? Note that Invoke Magic is not too useful in the context of Mage Slayer and Elan Resilience is only 1/round.



Valid 3.5? While avoiding mixing multiple campaign settings.

As Eldarial said, the kill combo is semi-irrelevant not because it's assumed to succeed but because it's whatever the Wizard wants it to be. Shuffled location bonus feats give the Wizard all the metamagic feats he needs to deal damage or self buff and because he can cast spontaneously how he kills the Mage Slayer is more a matter of personal taste and style at that point. If he were limited to a certain number of spells the -how- would matter more because there would be an element of spell management but he has an infinite (or at least arbitrarily high) number of spells per day to work with so that limitation disappears.

[Anthrowhale]

As Eldarial said, the kill combo is semi-irrelevant not because it's assumed to succeed but because it's whatever the Wizard wants it to be.

Can you Limbo (the dance) down below infinite action Surge of Fortune?

[dextercorvia]

A rules question. Do you gain the HD of the leShay, as part of the switch?

[Anthrowhale]

A rules question. Do you gain the HD of the leShay, as part of the switch?

I was assuming no. Majic Jar says "You keep your ... level...".

[dextercorvia]

I was assuming no. Majic Jar says "You keep your ... level...".

I had thought so, but then I couldn't find it. I was looking for HD, rather than level.

What about type and subtype? Any idea whether that changes or not?

[Eldariel]

Can you Limbo (the dance) down below infinite action Surge of Fortune?

Well, Surge + Orb only takes one set of actions (Quicken one, cast other). Now, the question is if one autohit Orb is sufficient.

[Anthrowhale]

I was looking for HD, rather than level.

The best logic I see is HD=level.



What about type and subtype? Any idea whether that changes or not?

I was assuming yes, on the theory that type and subtype are natural or automatic abilities.

[dextercorvia]

The best logic I see is HD=level.



I was assuming yes, on the theory that type and subtype are natural or automatic abilities.

That's kind of what I figured. Unless someone presents some compelling evidence to the contrary, I will work under these assumptions.

[Flickerdart]

The leShay doesn't list any of its feats as bonus feats, so if you don't get its HD, then you don't get the feats that come with it.

[Anthrowhale]

The leShay doesn't list any of its feats as bonus feats, so if you don't get its HD, then you don't get the feats that come with it.

I don't follow the logic.

Mine is that Majic Jar grants natural abilities and "Elf Traits" is a natural ability that grants bonus feats. HD don't seem to be relevant.

[Randomguy]

The leShay doesn't list any of its feats as bonus feats, so if you don't get its HD, then you don't get the feats that come with it.

From the LeShay stat block.

Elf Traits: Immune to magic sleep spells and effects;
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against enchantment
spells or effects; low-light vision (can see twice as far as
a human in low-light conditions); entitled to a Search
check when within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door
as though actively looking for it; Martial Weapon Profi-
ciency (composite longbow, composite shortbow, long-
bow, longsword, and rapier) as bonus feats


And he just traded those out for other feats using Dark Chaos Shuffle.

Wait a moment: AnthroWhale, aren't you missing a golden opportunity here? You could spend as many of your feats as possible pre-level 10 on Weapon Focus for thrown weapons, and use that to get improved critical for free for all of those weapons, and then Dark Chaos Shuffle all the weapon focus and improved critical out for other feats. You already kind of do that, but only for about three of them.


EDIT: Oh, and I figured out a way to escape your antimagic field (though it only works when you're both flying): You fly up to the wizard and activate the field. The wizard's flight deactivates, and he falls out of the field (you still get an attack of opportunity, but I don't think stand still can work against gravity). When the wizard is out of the field, his flight then reactivates, and he's outside the field. It's fly perfect from Elemental Body (air) so that should stop him from falling, and feather fall if that doesn't.

[Flickerdart]

From the LeShay stat block.


And he just traded those out for other feats using Dark Chaos Shuffle.
Ah, the bonus feats that aren't listed under its "Feats" section as being feats. Oh WotC, when will you learn?

[Anthrowhale]

Wait a moment: AnthroWhale, aren't you missing a golden opportunity here?


Looks like it. I'll need to reoptimize anyway now that MoP doesn't work for initiative.



(you still get an attack of opportunity, but I don't think stand still can work against gravity)

This seems valid. I might go for damage rather than Stand Still while flying.

[metabolicjosh]

Why don't you have a ring of nine lives by the way?
No love for an auto save?

[Anthrowhale]

I'm confused by the state of this thread. What is displayed appears to be one behind what is posted.


Why don't you have a ring of nine lives by the way?
No love for an auto save?

This build only has a 1/400 chance of failing plausible saves.

[TuggyNE]

I'm confused by the state of this thread. What is displayed appears to be one behind what is posted.

A known occasional glitch caused by synchronization problems when the post that starts a new page has an error or the server was overloaded.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm confused by the state of this thread. What is displayed appears to be one behind what is posted.



This build only has a 1/400 chance of failing plausible saves.

At least one auto-save mechanic wouldn't be a bad idea though. A Wizard with a dip in Tainted Scholar could **** those plausible saves up pretty bad.

[Kelb_Panthera]

At least one auto-save mechanic wouldn't be a bad idea though. A Wizard with a dip in Tainted Scholar could **** those plausible saves up pretty bad.

Yeah, but tainted scholar is so broken and so easy to enter that it's largely regarded as almost cheating.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, but tainted scholar is so broken and so easy to enter that it's largely regarded as almost cheating.

Isn't this the thread with summoning leShay, binding Djinn and using diplomacy with them?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Isn't this the thread with summoning leShay, binding Djinn and using diplomacy with them?

Yeah, but those things all take at least a modicum of system mastery.

You can accidently become stupid powerful by taking tainted scholar.

Becoming a wizard that can break reality with int 10 is just rude.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, but those things all take at least a modicum of system mastery.

Point taken. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

I think I may have figured out a way to trivialize this without relying on anything Anthrowhale has deemed unbounded.

I'll stipulate that you win initiative, can detect the Wizard, and have an unbroken path to him.

Wizard5/DivineOracle1/Incantatrix10/Mindbender1/X3

Wizard has active (among other things) Persistent Foresight, Persistent Antilife Shell*, and Craft Contingent: Time Stop (Trigger Anti-Magic Field within 100') Anticipate Teleport, and Persistent Greater Arcane Sight.

Greater Arcane Sight and Mindsight mean that the Mage is able to detect the square of the Mage Killer (or at least his magical auras) as he approaches, unless the Mage Killer teleports (but that is covered by AT). If the Mage Killer makes it nearly adjacent without activating his torc, the Antilife Shell stops him from approaching further without activating his Torc. I mention this just to provide the basis for the fact that the Mage is now aware of your presence, and as you have taken an action, has ample time to cast Celerity.

At any point there, the Mage can Celerity --> Timestop. Contingency means the Mage gets a Time Stop any time Mage Killer is too close with his AMF active, and is there as a CYA, just in case I missed something

From the Time Stop, all the Mage has to do is (possibly step back) and cast Prismatic Sphere. Prismatic Sphere blocks the AMF, so if the Mage Killer attempts to enter the Sphere, the AMF doesn't go with him, but the Antilife Shell fills the entire interior of the Prismatic Sphere, so he can't make it all the way through, either.

The Prismatic Sphere** lasts at least as long as the Antimagic Torc. When that has run its course, we can continue this discussion like gentlemen, over tea.

*Right now Antilife Shell is the weak point of the build. Several creature types are immune, and I haven't been able to run down a similar spell for Undead, Constructs, Elementals, or Outsiders. But, unless I'm mistaken, a goodly part of your build is predicated on your chosen form.

**Lest you think that the Mage is stuck in the Prismatic Sphere for 3-4 hours, remember that he can just Teleport out, to take care of other business, and the Mage Killer will have no idea whether he is still in there or not.

[Anthrowhale]

I think I may have figured out a way to trivialize this without relying on anything Anthrowhale has deemed unbounded.


Nice! A combination I hadn't seen previously.

Spell Resistance is Ex apparently (I just looked it up) and plausibly an "automatic ability" as per Mind Jar which means you need to beat an SR 42 check for Alife which this build doesn't do. An alternative build using Circle Magic could plausibly. What would that build be?

The build itself works on other high dex bodies like Kelvezu, an outsider, but as RandomGuy points out, without the +20 insight bonus to AC from LeShay, a LeShay body based wizard can hit hard with Metamagic Orbs.