Forcing a caster into service - help me brainstorm

[ILM]

This isn't a general 'how to catch a caster' thread. I'm exploring a scenario where a caster is brought into an AMF by whatever means, and then subdued in mundane fashion. This has already happened, so let's not discuss how improbable it may be.

The capturer now wants to force the caster to do his bidding. How does he proceed? (assume high level caster and 'reasonably unlimited' resources for the capturer)

My first ideas were to remove all the caster's equipment just in case, wait for a day of four for ongoing effects to end, put Antimagic Manacles on the caster, take him out of the first AMF and cast Geas/Quest until he fails his save, but that doesn't work due to:
- shackles protecting from Geas
- Geas being a weak spell anyway


How else then can the capturer force the caster to do his bidding, and keep the caster from doing magic for long enough to implement this compulsion?

[maximus25]

Get another wizard to cast Dominate Monster on him?

It's at least 17 days per cast, and you can cast it right when it's about to end and make him fail his will save.

[Alefiend]

Use something/somebody he cares about as leverage. Take hostages, or demonstrate the ability to instantly destroy the person/thing if the mage doesn't comply.

[ILM]

Get another wizard to cast Dominate Monster on him?

It's at least 17 days per cast, and you can cast it right when it's about to end and make him fail his will save.
That might work, actually (although I've never been really sold on the part where you force someone to fail a save, but lets leave that aside for the moment). I was hoping for something of a somewhat lower level for plot reasons, though I guess I didn't specify it. In any event, how would you go about casting Dominate Monster (repeatedly) on a mage without him resisting or retaliating? Do mind-affecting spells work when the subject is unconscious?


Use something/somebody he cares about as leverage. Take hostages, or demonstrate the ability to instantly destroy the person/thing if the mage doesn't comply.
I think that would rather encourage said caster to turn against you. In addition, the scenario I'm exploring is actually going to be used against multiple mages, and it might be a little tough (or at least really resource-intensive) setting up something like that for a large number of targets.

[ericgrau]

Non-spontaneous casters don't tend to take silent spell. Bind him, gag him, cast domninate repeatedly, done. Dimensional lock the whole room as an added precaution. Since silent + still is even less likely all that leaves are the few spells that don't need still spell like dimension door and teleport.

[Aharon]

As you already have him in the AMF: You can safely cast into the Field. The step with the manacles isn't even required.

(from the SRD:


An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. )

So the spell is cast, he makes his save normally, and the spell is immediately supressed. As soon as the AMF is no longer supressed, it comes into effect.

As to which spell to use: If you have a high charisma caster in the conspiracy, Charm Person is sufficient (=> opposed Charisma checks to get the casters to do your bidding).
I think there is some Demon that has Charm Person at will or obscenely often/day (Lilitu, IIRC). Cast several layers of Charm Person so it doesn't matter if a few of them are dispelled.

[Iamyourking]

The stripping his gear from him is good, but cut off his tongue and hands in addition to conventional restraints (It's an old Kyton trick, bindings and gags can be removed much easier than limbs can be regenerated) and keep him under anti-magic or dimension lock whenever you aren't actively casting. Use Monstrous Thrall from the Draconomicon since it's permanent, although it runs into the issue that unless you are a cleric of Tiamat or some other god that could be argued to have the Domination Domain the wizard will be loyal to the caster rather than you. Once the spell suceeds (And you can use Mind Fog or drain his wisdom first to make it easier), since you've already got a cleric on hand, use Regenerate to patch him back up.

[Morithias]

You know what Anti-magic fields don't block? Words.

Find someone with a really high diplomacy check, treat the prisoner well, and use your non-magical words to brainwash him to your side.

[ILM]

As you already have him in the AMF: You can safely cast into the Field. The step with the manacles isn't even required.

So the spell is cast, he makes his save normally, and the spell is immediately supressed. As soon as the AMF is no longer supressed, it comes into effect.
Ehrm, insteresting, but then by that logic, how do you adjudicate this: a caster sits in an AMF. He casts, say, a fog cloud outside the AMF. What happens? Does the spell take effect normally? Does the casting fail?

Also: how do you know if the spell succeeded and that it's safe to take the caster out of the AMF?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Knock him unconscious, then haul him out and cast whatever you want to on him.

[Aharon]

Ehrm, insteresting, but then by that logic, how do you adjudicate this: a caster sits in an AMF. He casts, say, a fog cloud outside the AMF. What happens? Does the spell take effect normally? Does the casting fail?

Also: how do you know if the spell succeeded and that it's safe to take the caster out of the AMF?

@Casting inside AMF, targeting something outside AMF:
That depends. There's indeed a school of thought that says it takes effect normally. Others take the part "An antimagic field supresses any spell or magical effect used within[...]" to mean that a spell cast (i.e. used) within the field is supressed as long as the caster is in the AMF and takes effect when he leaves. I'm not aware of a clear RAW answer.

@knowing success:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

[Alefiend]

I think that would rather encourage said caster to turn against you.

You're forcing a wizard to do your bidding, presumably against his will. You really think he won't turn against you eventually?:smallconfused:

[ILM]

You're forcing a wizard to do your bidding, presumably against his will. You really think he won't turn against you eventually?:smallconfused:
It's not like the casters are expected to survive once the task is done... Dominate Monster -> fail next save -> repeat until task is done -> go to sleep -> coup de grâce.

[XQNP]

If you don't mind being somewhat evil, there are always mindrape or mother cyst -> necrotic cyst -> necrotic tumor.

[Anodai]

Keep in mind that if you need to subdue him, the easiest thing to do might be to poison him until an attribute reaches zero. Any attribute that isn't constitution will keep him alive but helpless.

Poison him into helplessness, then use scrolls of dominate person (1125 gp for CL 9th, so with 'reasonably unlimited' resources, you should be able to get a ton).

[Dilvish]

You know what Anti-magic fields don't block? Words.

Find someone with a really high diplomacy check, treat the prisoner well, and use your non-magical words to brainwash him to your side.

I'm thinking the same thing. The caster may even be less likely to seek revenge on his captors.

[Slipperychicken]

Mindrape (Sorc/Wiz 9). He now thinks, sincerely, that working for you is the best decision he's made in his entire life, and is the most fulfilling and enjoyable work he's ever taken. And you know everything he knows, which is really useful in concocting more reasons for him to serve you completely and without reservation. Instantaneous duration, so you don't even need to worry about dispels or magic-supression.

If you don't have any 17th level Wizards or Sorcerers willing to cast it, then a) Shame on you, your organization is bad and you should feel bad, and b) Get some scrolls.

[ILM]

Keep in mind that if you need to subdue him, the easiest thing to do might be to poison him until an attribute reaches zero. Any attribute that isn't constitution will keep him alive but helpless.

Poison him into helplessness, then use scrolls of dominate person (1125 gp for CL 9th, so with 'reasonably unlimited' resources, you should be able to get a ton).
Since we're in an AMF, couldn't the bad guys just knock them over the head with a sap, drag them out of the AMF and cast repeatedly until successful?

[Anodai]

Since we're in an AMF, couldn't the bad guys just knock them over the head with a sap, drag them out of the AMF and cast repeatedly until successful?

That's basically the plan, except poisoning someone (at least to me) seems more reliable, as you know when they will recover. With unconsciousness there's always the risk that something may go awry and then you have a very angry, unrestricted sorcerer on your hands. In addition, some poisons (such as Ungol Dust, which deals Cha damage) never wear off and have to be cured. So you could reduce him to zero charisma with repeated doses of Ungol Dust in the anti magic field, then take him somewhere secure where you can find a way to control him at your leisure, then once he is Dominated (or whatever else you choose to do) cure the charisma damage in some way and you're set.

[Korivan]

1. Invoke their truename
2. Bribery/extortion/hold loved ones hostage
3. Pay them, find something they value
4. Enspell them
5. Somehow bind them to an item that if you own, you control them (just watched once upon a time again)
6. Seduce

[Slipperychicken]

1. Invoke their truename
2. Bribery/extortion/hold loved ones hostage
3. Pay them, find something they value
4. Enspell them
5. Somehow bind them to an item that if you own, you control them (just watched once upon a time again)
6. Seduce

This is the most bizarre set of instructions ever.

[animewatcha]

Can noise cause distraction such that they can't cast spells ( concentration checks ) or how long can they go without needing to 'rest'.

Had an idea of cursing him with x-million magic mouths.

[TuggyNE]

This is the most bizarre set of instructions ever.

I think it's less "set of instructions" and more "list of unrelated alternative ideas". Bullet point format would have been superior, however.

[Fitz10019]

Tickling?

OP should clarify whether his character is evil, good, willing to turn evil, trying to be good, etc.

You can't expect to hire an evil caster to mindrape a mage, and then expect the evil caster to do anything other than whatever HE wants with the mage.

[ILM]

OP should clarify whether his character is evil, good, willing to turn evil, trying to be good, etc.
Probably somewhere along the lines of lawful neutral. Without going into the details, let's just say the instigator is carrying out his liege's orders. Said instigator is fiercely loyal, not unwilling to get his hands dirty for his boss, but has no innate evil tendencies. If mindrape is the only way to do it, he'll do it, but if there's anything else he'll go with that instead.

[Aharon]

So, how do you intend to rule AMFs in your campaign? I just gave the RAW-variant, if you clarify how it works in your campaign, I might be able to provide additional input.

[Quirp]

Mark of Justice might be an alternative. Just cast several of those on him to rule out any behaviour you dislike.

[Quirp]

Mark of Justice might be an alternative. Just cast several of those on him to rule out any behaviour you dislike.

[ILM]

So, how do you intend to rule AMFs in your campaign? I just gave the RAW-variant, if you clarify how it works in your campaign, I might be able to provide additional input.
For the moment I'm going with the RAW, but I'm developing a hefty dislike of the whole "casting works, effects are suppressed" thing. It's likely that any casting inside an AMF, or outside but including targets inside, will simply fail. Ongoing effects will be suppressed for as long as the AMF goes on.

But to be honest, I think the coup-de-grâce with a sap (maybe another hit for good measure) then repeated castings of whatever enchantment until it holds will work for my purposes. :)