How do natural weapons gained through Soulmelds Stack?

[Hellwyrm]

So, after finally getting to know Magic of Incarnum, and reading up on most of the handbooks etc. I have run into a little problem. I'm not sure exactly how racial natural weapons interact with the natural weapons gained by shaping and binding soulmelds, and how the natural naturals granted by those soulmelds stack.
For example, say I'm a thri-keen totemist, so I normally have four natural claw attacks and a bite. If I shape Girallons Arms, and bind it to my Totem Chakra, do I then have a total of eight claw attacks - four from Girallons Arms and four from being a thri-keen, or do I have six, or do the four granted by Girallons Arms and being a thri-keen overlap and I still only have four claw attacks?
A similar example, if I instead shape Winter Mask and bind it to the Totem Chakra, does that replace or stack with the thri-keens natural bite attack?
In addition, if the same thri-keen totemist has the feat Double Chakra (Totem), and has Girallons Arms shaped and bound to the Totem Chakra, and Kruthik Claws also shaped and bound to the Totem Chakra, do the claw attacks granted by Girallons Arms stack with the claw attacks granted by Kruthik Claws? Do both/some of these stack with a thri-keens natural claw attacks?
Thanks.

[Answerer]

Gaining a natural attack does not necessarily give you the limb to use it with.

If you have only two arms, you can only make two Claw attacks. If you only have one mouth, you can only make one Bite attack. And so on.

So the Winter Mask and the Kruthik Claws definitely aren't going to stack; you just use whichever one is better.

Girallon Arms is special because it does give you more arms – but this is kind of confusing with respect to creatures that already have four arms, since the wording is kind of based on a creature that started with two.

There are two possible readings: that it increases your number of arms up to four, or it simply adds two. The latter reading strikes me as more consistent and balanced. The former arguably makes more sense since girallons have four arms.

So I'd argue that a Thri-kreen with Girallon Arms gets six Claw attacks: two from Thri-kreen, two from Girallon Arms, and two that are one or the other, whichever is better.

[Big Fau]

A similar example, if I instead shape Winter Mask and bind it to the Totem Chakra, does that replace or stack with the thri-keens natural bite attack?
In addition, if the same thri-keen totemist has the feat Double Chakra (Totem), and has Girallons Arms shaped and bound to the Totem Chakra, and Kruthik Claws also shaped and bound to the Totem Chakra, do the claw attacks granted by Girallons Arms stack with the claw attacks granted by Kruthik Claws? Do both/some of these stack with a thri-keens natural claw attacks?
Thanks.

There is one advantage to using both Girallon Arms and Kruthik Claws together: Acid damage. You'd have 2 claw attacks as a primary weapon that deal 1d6+Str+1d4/Essentia in Acid damage, and then 2 secondary claw attacks that deal 1d4+.5 Str+1/Essentia.


Coupling this with the Urskan Greaves and you can really lay down the hurt.

[Keld Denar]

Gaining a natural attack does not necessarily give you the limb to use it with.

If you have only two arms, you can only make two Claw attacks. If you only have one mouth, you can only make one Bite attack. And so on.

So the Winter Mask and the Kruthik Claws definitely aren't going to stack; you just use whichever one is better.

Girallon Arms is special because it does give you more arms – but this is kind of confusing with respect to creatures that already have four arms, since the wording is kind of based on a creature that started with two.

There are two possible readings: that it increases your number of arms up to four, or it simply adds two. The latter reading strikes me as more consistent and balanced. The former arguably makes more sense since girallons have four arms.

So I'd argue that a Thri-kreen with Girallon Arms gets six Claw attacks: two from Thri-kreen, two from Girallon Arms, and two that are one or the other, whichever is better.

This is about the most correct interpretation I've ever figured out. Some of the later supplements like Dragon Magic and Complete Champion include text when natural weapons are gained to use their damage or the existing damage, whichever is higher.

[Hellwyrm]

Ok thanks, that pretty much clears up everything I was asking.
Another question then, whats a good way to set up a damage dealing set with Soulmelds. The only real soulmelds I can see is Urskan Greaves bound to your feet, Girallon arms bound to your Totem, Dread Carpace shaped and either a bite granting soulmeld or Heart of Fire bound to your Totem. Is this about all I can get? Maybe seasoned with power attack and/or sneak attack?
That is better than what I orginally thought, but it still doesn't sound as good as I've heard Incarnum's potential cracked up to be. Am I missing something?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ok thanks, that pretty much clears up everything I was asking.
Another question then, whats a good way to set up a damage dealing set with Soulmelds. The only real soulmelds I can see is Urskan Greaves bound to your feet, Girallon arms bound to your Totem, Dread Carpace shaped and either a bite granting soulmeld or Heart of Fire bound to your Totem. Is this about all I can get? Maybe seasoned with power attack and/or sneak attack?
That is better than what I orginally thought, but it still doesn't sound as good as I've heard Incarnum's potential cracked up to be. Am I missing something?

I believe Dragon Magic gives you two soulmelds with unique magical attacks--one pair of wing attacks, and one tail attack--and one of them (the tail?) does not require binding. I don't have book access to confirm, though.

[Darrin]

I believe Dragon Magic gives you two soulmelds with unique magical attacks--one pair of wing attacks, and one tail attack--and one of them (the tail?) does not require binding. I don't have book access to confirm, though.

You're thinking of Chaos Roc's Span from Dragon #350, which gives you two wing-buffet attacks just from shaping the soulmeld. They do nonlethal damage as the default, but can do lethal if you bind them to your... shoulders, I think?

It's one of the two soulmelds that can give you a natural attack *without* binding it to your Totem chakra. The other one is Claws of the Wyrm from Dragon Magic, but you need to have the dragonblood subtype to shape them.

The Dragon Tail soulmeld is also from Dragon Magic... unfortunately, it's a bit wonky. It's not identified as a natural weapon, and it has several drawbacks that it wouldn't have if it was a natural weapon: it doesn't threaten, it can't make AoOs, and can't be used in a grapple. While it gains several features via various bindings, it never really gets all the features that a natural weapon should have.

If you're looking to gain a lot of natural weapons at low levels, the best way is probably Kobold Totemist 2, bind Girallon Arms, and take the Dragon Tail feat (from Races of the Dragon) for: claw/claw/claw/claw/bite/tail.

If you need something medium-sized, Darfellen Totemist 2 is a nice start, but it's difficult to add the Dragon Tail attack... if you add Dragonborn of Bahumat, you probably lose the bite attack (Dragonborn doesn't say what happens to a creature's natural attacks after the Rite of Bebirth... near as I can tell by RAW, you lose 'em as racial abilities).

Silverbrow Human Totemist 2 can get claw/claw/claw/claw/tail, but needs to pick up a bite attack from somewhere else... Hunger domain, Fanged Mask, Animal Devotion, or various grafts may work.

Person_Man has a guide for adding more natural attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).

[Hellwyrm]

You're thinking of Chaos Roc's Span from Dragon #350, which gives you two wing-buffet attacks just from shaping the soulmeld. They do nonlethal damage as the default, but can do lethal if you bind them to your... shoulders, I think?
Ah, I knew I heard of something like this somewhere.


The Dragon Tail soulmeld is also from Dragon Magic... unfortunately, it's a bit wonky. It's not identified as a natural weapon, and it has several drawbacks that it wouldn't have if it was a natural weapon: it doesn't threaten, it can't make AoOs, and can't be used in a grapple. While it gains several features via various bindings, it never really gets all the features that a natural weapon should have.
Yeah, that soulmeld is pretty lackluster :smallyuk:


Person_Man has a guide for adding more natural attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).
Sweet that guide is great!

For a build, I was actually thinking dragonborn mongrel folk (RoD) Totemist 2/Barbarian 1 [with obligatory Whirling Frenzy and spirit lion totem]/+Totemist X, with the Draconic Tail feat, binding Girallons Arms, Chaos Roc's Span and picking up the items Fanged Mask and Horned Helm. However I'm at a bit of a loss at where to go with this. Is Totem Rager worth it? I've had a look at it, and it has some nice abilities, but would it be better to go Psionic Warrior and add some power support/ultility? Tome of Battle would be nice for some swift action boosts, but a lot of non-utility strikes would be relatively useless....

EDIT: That came out slightly wrong. Incarnum has plenty of utility, a great load of skill boosting melds, several melds with various access' to flight, but this is versatility in a specific area. Psionics would add access to Expansion, Hustle, Vigor, Claws of the Vampire, and potentially more with Expanded Knowledge. ToB has some similar additions, Sudden Leap among other things.

[Essence_of_War]

However I'm at a bit of a loss at where to go with this. Is Totem Rager worth it? I've had a look at it, and it has some nice abilities, but would it be better to go Psionic Warrior and add some power support/ultility? Tome of Battle would be nice for some swift action boosts, but a lot of non-utility strikes would be relatively useless....

EDIT: That came out slightly wrong. Incarnum has plenty of utility, a great load of skill boosting melds, several melds with various access' to flight, but this is versatility in a specific area. Psionics would add access to Expansion, Hustle, Vigor, Claws of the Vampire, and potentially more with Expanded Knowledge. ToB has some similar additions, Sudden Leap among other things.

I would say that Totem Rager is a trap. I discussed it over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13802943&postcount=8) in the context of a shifter totemist, but my complaints about the PrC are, in brief, you lose too many good class features, including essentia (even in rage!) and higher powered chakras.

A dedicated psionics/incarnum build can work well with the soul manifester PrC, but I think PsyWar is probably not the best way to do it. PsyWar requires a 4 level committment to get a 2nd level power to meet the Soul Manifester pre-reqs (there is also a feat tax!), whereas the Ardent's peculiar "powers known" clause makes it a better choice. I'll direct you to The Ardent Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1319.0) and specifically, the "Powers Known" section that discusses this issue.

ToB can add some neat stuff also. As little as a 1-level Warblade dip can nab Sudden Leap and Moment of Perfect Mind, which are great abilities to have! Totemists really need a way to cover their weak Will save, and in my mind, it's either a Warblade dip, burning a feat on Martial Study, or taking Endurance + Steadfast Determination.

All that being said, Barbarian1/Totemist X is perfectly viable, and you don't need to go anywhere other than that.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't call Totem Rager a trap. I do agree that straight Totemist is better, but the build has some key advantages that should be considered.

1) Much better will saves - as any Totemist player knows, Will is a severe Achilles heel for the class, and getting dominated or confused can easily cause a TPK. Even being "merely" taken out of combat with a charm or paralysis can be crippling to a party that's depending on you to meat-shield for them. Cobalt Rage shores up this defense nicely, stacking with just about everything including most items and the boost to Will from your regular Rage, and furthermore boosts your offense considerably too by scaling with the number of weapons (natural and manufactured) you employ (and stacking with the enhancement bonus on said weapons). Best of all - unlike Cerulean Will, you can leave Cobalt Rage completely empty every morning, filling it only once a fight starts simply by doing what you would normally do (rage.)

2) Ex Pounce: The barbarian dip you use to enter this class also gets you pounce, meaning you won't need to shape Sphinx Claws. Your pounce therefore isn't at risk of being turned off, and you have a bit more freedom in meld choice.

Also, you don't actually fall behind on Essentia vs. Totemist until 17 or so, assuming you want to keep Cobalt Rage maxed out (and you do.)

[Answerer]

Cobalt Rage and a Barbarian dip are good.

Totem Rager, less so.

I think Barbarian 1/Totemist 19 is probably better than Barbarian 1/Totemist 9/Totem Rager 10.

Though if you're actually at 20th level, I'd probably just prefer Totemist 20. That capstone is amazing.

[Essence_of_War]

Also, you don't actually fall behind on Essentia vs. Totemist until 17 or so, assuming you want to keep Cobalt Rage maxed out (and you do.)

That's a fair point about Cobalt Rage.

However, I think you might be sort of wrong about the Essentia:

5th level (no totem rager)
Straight totemist - 3 essentia
BBN1/Totemist 4 - 3 essentia

10th level:
Straight totemist - 7
BBN1/Totemist 6/TR3 - 5 + 1 while raging

15th level:
Totemist - 12
Totem Rager8 - 9 + 4 raging

20th level:
Totemist - 20
Totem Rager10 (back to totemist?) - 14 + 5

Totem Rager is behind from 6th to about 12th/13th, then picks up the slack, only in rage, from 13/14th->17 or so.

[Hellwyrm]

5th level (no totem rager)
Straight totemist - 3 essentia
BBN1/Totemist 4 - 3 essentia

10th level:
Straight totemist - 7
BBN1/Totemist 6/TR3 - 5 + 1 while raging

15th level:
Totemist - 12
Totem Rager8 - 9 + 4 raging

20th level:
Totemist - 20
Totem Rager10 (back to totemist?) - 14 + 5

Now thats a great breakdown of the essentia capabilities! Thanks.
I think a dip into Warblade, if only just for moment of perfect mind to shore up my will save will be essential (pun very much intended).

Ardent might be good for some added stuff....
My DM may allow one half of non-associated meldshaper levels to contribute to the overall meldshaper level, just like initiater level from ToB, so that would make a psionic dip maybe into soul manifester more viable.
Also, good advice is good from everyone. Thanks

[Psyren]

That's a fair point about Cobalt Rage.

However, I think you might be sort of wrong about the Essentia:


Totem Rager is behind from 6th to about 12th/13th, then picks up the slack, only in rage, from 13/14th->17 or so.

And why would you NOT be raging? :smallconfused: This is a non-difference in practice. Unless you're in a social campaign, in which case you're better off with Incarnate anyway.
Quite apart from the huge damage boosts (Str boost + essentia to every attack), you're also a lot harder to dominate, your biggest achilles heel. There's no reason not to be raging in a fight.

Your analysis proved my point - the difference is hardly enough to ding them over. In fact, by your own calculations they actually come out ahead of straight Totemist essentia-wise at 15.


Cobalt Rage and a Barbarian dip are good.

Totem Rager, less so.

Well, the big advantage of Totem Rager is that, unlike a Barbarian 1/Totemist X, you can leave Cobalt Rage completely empty every morning. This lets you max out different soulmelds instead. You also get to rage in every combat instead of just one. Alternatively, full up Cobalt Rage in the morning (since you know you'll use it); then when you rage, you can assign all your bonus essentia as a free action instead of a swift action. This frees up your swift for, say, activating your Belt of Battle or something.

Cobalt Rage is much more useful when you have more than one rage/day.