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rudy
2012-09-03, 08:58 AM
So, I don't like gestalt for many reasons. The biggest reason is quickly illustrated by the fact that a rogue/ranger has the same number of skill points as a rogue/fighter, or that a fighter/wizard has the same BAB as a fighter/barbarian. BUT, I wanted a system that would immensely diversify the abilities of characters, so I came up with the following. Feedback of any sort is appreciated, including, but not limited to, builds that would totally break it, so I know if there are any limitations I need to put in. I already use the following house-rules:

* No synthesist archetype
* Paladin's Divine Grace bonus is capped at 1+(Paladin level/2). Sorcerer/paladins are still great, but they'll have to actually stick with paladin to benefit from really amazing saves.



Rules for Double Class Play:

In Double Class Play, at each level (including first), your character chooses two classes (including potentially prestige classes) to advance a level in. This does not advance your character level by two, only by one. In effect, you are leveling in the classes concurrently, not sequentially. You gain all abilities of both classes, with the following caveats and exceptions:

SAVING THROWS & BAB:

For calculating the base saving throws and base attack bonus of your character, you need to do two steps. One, add together the values from all levels of all classes that you have (exactly as you would for a single class character). Second, divide by two and round up. That is the value that you use.

HD:

Whenever you gain a level in two classes, simple determine the hit points that you receive from each class (just from the hit die itself), add them together, and divide by two. After this, add favored class bonuses and con bonuses. Half hit points are not rounded up, but they are carried over to the next level (where they may potentially form a full hit point with another lonely half hit point)

SKILLS:

All class skills of any classes that you have levels in are class skills for you.

Whenever you gain a level, average the base number of skills gained from both classes, ADD ONE, and then add your intelligence modifier (and any favored class bonus). For example, the Paladin / Monk would get 3 (the average of 2 and 4) + 1 + INT = 4+INT skill points. If you gain a level in Rogue and Wizard, you gain 5 (the average of 8 and 2) + 1 + INT = 6 + INT skill points.

FAVORED CLASSES:

At level 1, you automatically gain two favored classes. (The half-elf has three favored classes). Whenever you gain a level in a favored class, you gain an appropriate favored class bonus. If you gain a level in two favored classes at once, gain a bonus for each. Special: for only one of the two classes are you permitted to gain a hit point as your favored class bonus. You must choose which class this is at first level.

CLASS LIMITATIONS:

You are subject to all limitations and restrictions (most notably alignment restrictions) of all classes that you have levels in.

FEATS:

You gain a feat every level.

STAT GAINS:

You gain a point in one of your primary statistics every even level EXCEPT THAT you cannot add a point to the same stat twice in a row. At most, you can go back and forth between two stats. For example, a fighter/wizard combo could add a point in intelligence at level 2, then one in strength at level 4, then one in intelligence at level 6, etc.

POWER LIMITATION:

The point of this system is to diversify, not focus, power. While it's certainly possible to make a more powerful wizard under this system than you can under the single class system, there are strict limitations on how far you can go.

Simply put, similar abilities from multiple classes stack, but not beyond the maximum achievable by the single class system. You cannot cast as a 10th level wizard before you are level 10. You cannot have +4d6 sneak attack damage before you are level 7. Example: If you take five levels each of rogue & ninja, your abilities stack to +6d6 sneak attack damage, but if your character level is only 5, it is capped at +3d6 sneak attack damage.

PRESTIGE CLASSES:

Several prestige classes are not balanced properly for this system. In particular, of the ones in the Core Rulebook, the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and Mystic Theurgist are problematic, and disallowed. The common difficulty is that these prestige classes are balanced by forcing a single-class player to diversify, and thus slow his advancement in any particular area. This is not a disincentive in the double class system.

If a player is interested in the abilities granted by one of these prestige classes, I can see about re-balancing them. Non-Core prestige classes require prior approval for similar reasons.

Kholai
2012-09-03, 12:08 PM
Hm. Don't know PF enough to know if this is broken, but...

Paladin 10 / Dragon Disciple 10 // Sorcerer 10 / Arcane Archer 10

16.5 BAB
3.5 sp/level.
10D8 + 10D10 HP.
Level 20 Draconic bloodline,
Level 20 sorcerer casting, level 14 Paladin casting,
+5 Charisma bonus to all saves,
+4 Strength, +2 Constution, +2 Intelligence.
Wings
Whirlwind Attack; archery style,
+7 Natural AC,
Dragon Form twice a day,
Breath Weapon
Blindsense 60ft.
4 Bloodline Feats
Immune to fear, disease, and charms.
Weird and wonderful arrow effects, which stack with their Divine Bond.
+10 Fort/+7 Reflex/+11 Will before Charisma boost.

So yeah, a flying archer mage with a good manoeuvrability and level 9 spells, better HP, better saves, no loss of casting, smites, healing, level 4 pally spells and gish-level BAB is the best I pulled out of this off the top of my head.

rudy
2012-09-03, 01:00 PM
That's a good build, but not broken, no. Exactly the kind of neat thing I was going for, actually :).

I used Arcane Archer in a related build as an example here, actually: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6f72?Alternate-to-Gestalt-for-Versatile-Characters#3

You wouldn't get paladin casting at 14, though, as the two prestige classes advance an arcane spellcasting class, which the paladin is sadly not. So, there is some sense in which the spellcasting bonus from the prestige classes is "wasted", though I don't think it's a huge deal.


Thank you for the feedback!

DaTedinator
2012-09-03, 05:50 PM
Why the extra +1 skill point? And why so many feats? And why twice the favored class bonuses?

And, just to be clear: say I'm a level 7 Wizard//Fighter. I gain a level of Wizard//Arcane Advancing PrC. I still only cast as an 8th level Wizard. But then I gain a level of Rogue//Fighter. Now I cast as a 9th level Wizard? Am I understanding that correctly?

Also, are you allowed to take a PrC for both classes at once?

rudy
2012-09-03, 06:33 PM
Why the extra +1 skill point? And why so many feats? And why twice the favored class bonuses?
The idea is for the player to be able to handle the abilities of two classes. +1 skill point may not be enough for this, actually, but it's what I settled on for the moment.

The feats I'm still waffling over. The problem is that without the extra feats, most of the best builds are something/fighter, because the additional feats are extraordinarily useful to everybody.

In all of the builds I've made so far, I've still had to make hard decisions about feats, though, since I have two sets of abilities. So, I'm not overly concerned about that.

Twice the favored class bonuses I'm not set on. Do you have a better idea? If I make it just one favored class, then obviously the half-elf's ability to have a second favored class becomes overpowered.


And, just to be clear: say I'm a level 7 Wizard//Fighter. I gain a level of Wizard//Arcane Advancing PrC. I still only cast as an 8th level Wizard. But then I gain a level of Rogue//Fighter. Now I cast as a 9th level Wizard? Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes, that's correct. Otherwise, the order in which you took levels would affect your ultimate power, and I don't think that's a desirable property. (Order matters in gestalt quite a bit, which is one of the things I don't like about it).


Also, are you allowed to take a PrC for both classes at once?
For the moment, yes. I'm very open to changing that if it proves a problem, but limiting to one prestige class at a time will make the order of levels matter again, which I wish to avoid.

Kholai
2012-09-03, 08:14 PM
Oop, my mistake on the caster levels, should have paid more attention.

A few more:

Oracle 20 // Sorcerer 20
Level 9 Divine and Arcane casting
D7 HD
3 Skillpoints / day.

12 level 9 spells / day. This applies to pretty much every full casting // full casting combo with the same stat, and is about as powerful as you can get.

Ranger 18 / Monk 2 // Druid 20.

This one should be pretty self-evident. +Wis to AC whilst wild shaped for the win.

Bard 20 // Paladin 20

Another obvious and easy one. Higher attack bonus than a Paladin/Ranger thanks to IC.

And my last foray, another complex one:

Elven:
Bard 4 / Fighter 2 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Duellist 10 // Wizard 10 / Arcane Archer 6 / Dragon Disciple 4

As an alternative, Bard 1 / Barbarian 5 instead (elf movement favoured class gets another +5 move from this, but only works in the current 1 feat/level environment).

Transmuter / Enhancement specialist.

Post elven modifiers:
10 Str / 16 Dex / 12 Con / 20 Int / 7 Wis / 12 Cha

Because slightly addled geniuses are always fun.
Ends up at: 14 / 18* / 14 / 27 / 7 / 12 before Wish-spam brings it up by +5 in each.

Bit of a funky one to qualify in time for everything (which it does just barely), but thanks to the wonky nature of Gestalt gains, by the time you hit level 10, your Wizard casting has three ghost levels, meaning it levels normally at Arcane Archer 1 and 4, and again at DD 5 so your casting is always full.

Result:
16 BAB with an incidental +2 I.C. for 14 rounds / day or so.
Make all knowledge skill checks untrained and with a +3 bonus to all knowledge checks (not bad considering this is an Intelligence based primary caster), which they can take 10 on if they're actually trained.
CL 20 Wizard / CL 6 Bard. Level 9 of the best Arcane Casting with a few spontaneous cure spells, for a laugh.
+2 to Dex from Transmuter (easily subsumed, but hey)
+4 Str, +2 Con and +2 Int, just in case being Dex/Int dual attribute dependent made you sad inside.
Intelligence modifier to AC (well, +10 of your monstrous Intelligence at least).
+10 (Duellist level) to damage; by RAW this also applies to their Bite and Claws, since they're not necessarily using a weapon in their other hand whilst attacking with their natural light weapon.
Perfection of Self, for either a +2-3 to hit or a +2-3 to DCs for a round, 10 rounds / day.
When not rewriting reality for gits and shiggles, they're a solid archer and decent in melee against anything that isn't crit immune.
Dual Attribute Dependent.
D9.2 Hitdie.
I'd have got permanent flight too if I could stomach the downgrade to 15 BAB, but neh.
84 Skillpoints before Intelligence, so over 200 Skillpoints by level 20, and every skill except Disable Device, Heal and Survival is a class skill for you.

Thanks to the feat/level the six feats for qualifying for PrCs is easy, with crafting feats to spare.

If this isn't broken, then I think you're pretty much set for the core PrCs at least.

rudy
2012-09-04, 09:56 AM
Oop, my mistake on the caster levels, should have paid more attention.

A few more:

Oracle 20 // Sorcerer 20
Level 9 Divine and Arcane casting
D7 HD
3 Skillpoints / day.

12 level 9 spells / day. This applies to pretty much every full casting // full casting combo with the same stat, and is about as powerful as you can get.
Yeah, this one is clearly a good combination. The large number of 9th level spells doesn't particularly bother me, as the character can only cast one per round. The versatility is good, but I have no qualms about throwing an antimagic zone on occassion at high level. Then this build is utterly screwed.


Ranger 18 / Monk 2 // Druid 20.

This one should be pretty self-evident. +Wis to AC whilst wild shaped for the win.
A good one. Both magical and combat ability.


Bard 20 // Paladin 20

Another obvious and easy one. Higher attack bonus than a Paladin/Ranger thanks to IC.
Can't do it; alignment restriction.
My bad; that's an artifact of 3.5. This is another solid build. AC isn't too scary, luckily, unless they drop some feats on Arcane Armor Mastery, which it might. Saves are absurd, strong but not ridiculous offensive capabilities. Will be somewhat torn as to what to spend feats on.


And my last foray, another complex one:

Elven:
Bard 4 / Fighter 2 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Duellist 10 // Wizard 10 / Arcane Archer 6 / Dragon Disciple 4

As an alternative, Bard 1 / Barbarian 5 instead (elf movement favoured class gets another +5 move from this, but only works in the current 1 feat/level environment).

Transmuter / Enhancement specialist.

Post elven modifiers:
10 Str / 16 Dex / 12 Con / 20 Int / 7 Wis / 12 Cha

Because slightly addled geniuses are always fun.
Ends up at: 14 / 18* / 14 / 27 / 7 / 12 before Wish-spam brings it up by +5 in each.

Bit of a funky one to qualify in time for everything (which it does just barely), but thanks to the wonky nature of Gestalt gains, by the time you hit level 10, your Wizard casting has three ghost levels, meaning it levels normally at Arcane Archer 1 and 4, and again at DD 5 so your casting is always full.

Result:
16 BAB with an incidental +2 I.C. for 14 rounds / day or so.
Make all knowledge skill checks untrained and with a +3 bonus to all knowledge checks (not bad considering this is an Intelligence based primary caster), which they can take 10 on if they're actually trained.
CL 20 Wizard / CL 6 Bard. Level 9 of the best Arcane Casting with a few spontaneous cure spells, for a laugh.
+2 to Dex from Transmuter (easily subsumed, but hey)
+4 Str, +2 Con and +2 Int, just in case being Dex/Int dual attribute dependent made you sad inside.
Intelligence modifier to AC (well, +10 of your monstrous Intelligence at least).
+10 (Duellist level) to damage; by RAW this also applies to their Bite and Claws, since they're not necessarily using a weapon in their other hand whilst attacking with their natural light weapon.
Perfection of Self, for either a +2-3 to hit or a +2-3 to DCs for a round, 10 rounds / day.
When not rewriting reality for gits and shiggles, they're a solid archer and decent in melee against anything that isn't crit immune.
Dual Attribute Dependent.
D9.2 Hitdie.
I'd have got permanent flight too if I could stomach the downgrade to 15 BAB, but neh.
84 Skillpoints before Intelligence, so over 200 Skillpoints by level 20, and every skill except Disable Device, Heal and Survival is a class skill for you.

Thanks to the feat/level the six feats for qualifying for PrCs is easy, with crafting feats to spare.

If this isn't broken, then I think you're pretty much set for the core PrCs at least.
I really like this build. Very strong, but not broken, I don't think. Excellent offense and AC, but not ridiculous saves compared to some of the others (I'd be concerned if it had no weaknesses).

Might use it for an NPC if I end up running this (if you don't mind?) The vast majority of the world will be normal characters, but a few NPCs (both good and evil) will also be double classed like the PCs, for similar mysterious reasons.

DaTedinator
2012-09-04, 11:21 AM
The idea is for the player to be able to handle the abilities of two classes. +1 skill point may not be enough for this, actually, but it's what I settled on for the moment.

The feats I'm still waffling over. The problem is that without the extra feats, most of the best builds are something/fighter, because the additional feats are extraordinarily useful to everybody.

In all of the builds I've made so far, I've still had to make hard decisions about feats, though, since I have two sets of abilities. So, I'm not overly concerned about that.

I don't know if that's really necessary. Granted, I'm not as familiar with Pathfinder as I am with 3.5, but feats didn't strike me as any more necessary to character concepts.

The main problem I have with the extra skills and feats is that they just straight up make a character more powerful. If you went Rogue//Rogue for the full 20 levels, which should grant no extra benefits, you'd have an extra skill point per level, and twice the feats of a normal Rogue. That's not more diverse power, that's just more power.

One of the beauties of Gestalt was how simple it was to implement. In fact, I let my players use it in normal games for a +2 LA, and it worked perfectly. Extra feats and skills makes that more difficult to accomplish.


Twice the favored class bonuses I'm not set on. Do you have a better idea? If I make it just one favored class, then obviously the half-elf's ability to have a second favored class becomes overpowered.

Why not just make it so you can only get one bonus? Or do it like other abilities, where the total bonus is limited by your character level. So a half-elf who takes his two favored classes until level 10 would only get 10 levels of favored classedness, but then he could take the next 10 levels in whatever and catch up.


Yes, that's correct. Otherwise, the order in which you took levels would affect your ultimate power, and I don't think that's a desirable property. (Order matters in gestalt quite a bit, which is one of the things I don't like about it).

For the moment, yes. I'm very open to changing that if it proves a problem, but limiting to one prestige class at a time will make the order of levels matter again, which I wish to avoid.

I see, interesting. It still *feels* too overpowered, but I suppose I am having trouble thinking of a build that actually abuses it. I guess this is what it's like for those who reject Psionics or Tome of Battle based on speculative power concerns. :smalltongue:

Kholai
2012-09-04, 04:10 PM
Yeah, this one is clearly a good combination. The large number of 9th level spells doesn't particularly bother me, as the character can only cast one per round. The versatility is good, but I have no qualms about throwing an antimagic zone on occassion at high level. Then this build is utterly screwed.

True enough, this one won't metamagic well either, though a Wizard//Witch can reliably pull off a Quickened + Regular spell each round with its prepared slots. For that one I'd probably go with Witch 10 / Loremaster 10 // Wizard 20 just to ham up the know-it-all factor.


A good one. Both magical and combat ability.

Yeah, can't go wrong with Druid, and thanks to the Ranger's Combat Style benefits to natural weapons and being able to Improved Natural Attack their Unarmed Strike as well means they're dealing a whole mess of D8s.


Can't do it; alignment restriction.
My bad; that's an artifact of 3.5. This is another solid build. AC isn't too scary, luckily, unless they drop some feats on Arcane Armor Mastery, which it might. Saves are absurd, strong but not ridiculous offensive capabilities. Will be somewhat torn as to what to spend feats on.

Yeah, I had to double check myself on that one. Good change in my mind though.

I think a Dwarf Paladin // Bard getting Paladin HP bonii and Bard ASF penalty reduction for medium armour should let you cast in Mithral Fullplate with a 0% casting penalty by level 15, with a Mithral Breastplate before. This saves you a few feats, though at 1 feat / level you should have enough for at least a few Paladin tricks whilst you pump your murder-music checks to epic levels.


I really like this build. Very strong, but not broken, I don't think. Excellent offense and AC, but not ridiculous saves compared to some of the others (I'd be concerned if it had no weaknesses).

Might use it for an NPC if I end up running this (if you don't mind?) The vast majority of the world will be normal characters, but a few NPCs (both good and evil) will also be double classed like the PCs, for similar mysterious reasons.

Of course, it was made using your system after all.

As an alternative (not that I overthink my builds or anything), here is, I believe, a slightly better build you're also welcome to use; though there are tradeoffs:

Bard 1 / Barbarian 5 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Duellist 10 // Wizard 8 / Dragon Disciple 6 / Arcane Archer 6

Unfortunately timing is fairly important for BAB qualification and optimal Hitdice.

BAB 16
Base Saves: 8/8/9
HD = 10 + D6 + 4D9 + 1D12 + 2D9 + 1D11 + 5D11 + 5D10
Skills = 82 skill points before intelligence, starting at 20 this gives an extra 130, assuming modest Wish-use (with automatic Scribe Scroll, making 5-in-a-row Wishes for every stat are actually a given at level 17, but let's assume modest investment of 1-3 wishes in Intelligence).
Every skill except for Heal is a class skill.
Skill Breakup:
4 + 5 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5
Int: 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 8 + 8.
Level 17 and then grants a scaling # of wishes for +9 +9 +10 (or +10/+10/+11 with instant +5 inherent)

Barbarian:
+15 ft Movement from Favoured Class - Barbarian / Elf levels.
+1 Trap Sense
12 rounds of Rage / day, with Renewed Vigour for Rage-based healing, and Swift Foot for an extra 5 ft movement whilst Raging (50 ft movement speed).
Improved Uncanny Dodge

Wizard:
Scribe Scroll
1 Wizard bonus feat; Perhaps Extend Spell?
Bonded Item for a Staff.
+2 Enhancement to Dexterity.
Augment & Perfection of Self
Level 17 access to level 9 spells.
CL 19 (loses that last CL at level 19, meaning no delayed spell access)

Bard:
+1 to all knowledge skills and can make them untrained (not bad considering his Int Mod).
+1 Inspire Courage for 5 rounds / level.
Three minor performances. Woo.
2 spontaneous spells known, 4 spontaneous Cantrips for full abuse. Woo again.

Dragon Disciple:
+5 Natural Armour
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence
Bite 1D6 + 1D6 Energy + 1.5 Str
Blindsense 60 ft.
Dragon Form 2/day
Claws, 4 rounds / day. 1D6 damage apiece.
Mage Armour, Resist Energy, Fly and Fear as bonus spells.
3 Bloodline Feats - Presumably Blind Fight, Improved Initiative and Toughness.
Black Dragon; Acid Resist 10, 2/day 10D6 DC16 Acid 60 ft. line breath weapon which is honestly rather forgettable.
60 ft. Fly Speed (Average)

Arcane Archer
All arrows are +1 Flaming Distance arrows.
Imbue Arrow - Every AOE spell has a 220 ft + range thanks to being Distance.
Seeking Arrow 2/day (since this ignores concealment and Blindsense can indeed pinpoint with any line of effect, this is an invisibility killer).
Phase Arrow 1/day (Brilliant Energy arrow?)

Duellist
+10 Int to AC.
+10 damage per hit with his rapier and his bite.
Another +4 to Initiative and +4 AC to Mobility against AoOs.
Parry, an AoOs against enemies he parries.
Enemies can't Withdraw without provoking an AoO.
Combat Reflexes
+2 to Reflex saves.
Can Charge across difficult terrain.
+3 Dodge AC when fighting Defensively or Total Defence.
Deflects arrows - If he's holding his bow he can still deflect arrows with his teeth!
Crippling Critical.

Feats:
Dodge
Weapon Finesse.
Mobility
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

14 feats; your choice, I don't know enough PF feats for serious optimisation, but with even 3-4 magic feats, 3 ranged combat feats 3 melee feats and 3 general utility feats and a Crafting feat or two you're not exactly restricted in making a serious threat however you want it.

rudy
2012-09-04, 06:38 PM
Update:

After the input here, and on the paizo forums, I'm making the following alterations:

* Round down, not up, for BAB and saves averages.

* Instead of at every level, feats at every odd level and every multiple of four. That is, every level *except* 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.


Neither of these changes significantly alters the above suggested builds, though.

Thanks for the continued input; I'll respond in more detail when I have a few minutes.

rudy
2012-09-04, 06:40 PM
So a half-elf who takes his two favored classes until level 10 would only get 10 levels of favored classedness, but then he could take the next 10 levels in whatever and catch up.

This is a very good suggestion; I'll ponder it. My only worry is that it may be difficult to explain the level limitation clearly for this particular bonus.

Kholai
2012-09-04, 07:34 PM
My two penneth on the matter, and take it with as many pinches of salt as you please:

* The second favoured class is largely irrelevant to the power of any builds I've suggested.
* I had actually assumed that everything rounded down already and been happy with the balance.
* 15 feats is a whole lot better, 20 was just too many.

Another, slightly more unusual build:

Bard 13 / Pathfinder Chronicler 7 // Sorcerer 18 / Pathfinder Chronicler 2

It can honestly be pretty much any full casting class (or any other class), but I think this one gets most of the goodies.

Level 13 Bard: You may use Bardic Music as a Swift Action.

Level 9 Pathfinder Chronicler: You may make a special use of Bardic Music to grant an ally a Standard Action.

You count as your own ally, and even without Lingering Performance to give an extra two rounds of "Inspire Action" (3 rounds giving an extra Standard Action per round), you can "quicken" any standard action ability, including spells.

You also have Inspirations and Bardic Performance as a level 20 Bard, including # of uses. You're a full level 9 Spell-slinging Sorcerer, have level 13 Bardic casting, and you can also use Greater Epic Tale to have one of your buddies target you as well, giving you three Standard Actions per round.

You have 12 BAB, 6/9/13 saves, 900 GP of anygear you can conjure from the ether, an average D7 Hitdie, 18 Favoured Class levels, more than 5 skill points per level, and oh-wait-who-cares you can cast three spells per round by reading an Epic Tale and inspiring yourself.

rudy
2012-09-05, 07:59 AM
DaTedinator:

I've limited the feats, as you saw. The problem with the skills is that I'm going to be using this system for a party of exactly 3 players, and I'm going to expect them to handle anything and everything a normal sized party of 4-6 could. So, each player needs to cover more skills than usual.

I'm actually considering using, as an alternate, adding the skill bases and subtracting 2. So, Rogue+Paladin = 8+2-2 = 8+INT, Rogue+Ranger = 8+6-2=12+INT. Rogue+Rogue (though far from an optimum combination in this system) would net you 14+INT for being the 3-man party's swiss army knife.

I think I am going to take your suggestion on favored classes; thanks for that.

As for power, players in this system will clearly be more powerful. I'm designing the system for a campaign where the players' ability to handle a wider range of powers and skills than "normal" people is a major plot point, so there's that. I also want to have a system where I can play with 3 (or even 2) players, and not have to worry about tailoring the game to their specific abilities.

rudy
2012-09-05, 08:12 AM
Kholai:

Timing is going to be unavoidable when it comes to qualifying for prestige classes. That's a feature of the base system, though, so I don't feel bad that it's also in this system.

For the Pathfinder Chronicler, I'd personally read the ability of "inspire one ally" to mean not yourself, but I don't know if there's a better clarification out there. Still a great build either way.

As for the three actions per turn, I don't think it works like that. The Epic Tales takes a full round action to activate, first off. Secondly, Inspire Action is a one-off use, not a duration use. So, you could use epic tales to inspire action, but it would only inspire for one turn. So, it seems that, best case scenario would be, you use a full round action in one turn to read epic tales, and then in the following turn you get two extra standard actions, one from inspire action, and one from the epic tales, another from the inspire action you use that round.

Kholai
2012-09-05, 10:41 AM
Rudy: Remember Greater Epic Tales can be used by your allies - or familiar. They can read it for you, and even if you can't target yourself, they can target you with the effect "immediately" giving you the standard action during their turn. Do it with two mages and two reading capable familiars or cohorts and you've broken action economy forever.

***

This time, I'm trying actively to break the "Diversify" design goal:

Monk (Zen Archer) 20 // Bonded Witch 1 / Ranger 9 / Arcane Archer 10

Half Elf (for the lulz), with point buy:

Str 9 / Dex 13 / Con 14 / Int 14 / Wis 20 / Cha 7
All points go into Wisdom for a 25 before her buddy the Dragon-Duellist Wish-spams her with his Arcane Bonded Wish-staff.

BAB: 17, 19.5 when Flurrying.
11/11/10 saves with Evasion.
Average of ~5 sp / level.
Arcane Bonded to their Longbow, which as far as I can deduce allows them to Craft Weapon it into a +2 Frost Shock Merciful Speed bow once they hit Arcane Archer 10 and nab that Caster Level 8, which is nice. For flavour, let's say it's strung with her own hair or something.
Level 8 Witch Casting (Level 4 spells)
2 Combat Style feats (no prerequisites) - Archery. Precise Shot and Parting Shot.
6 Monk feats (again, no prerequisites) - Archery again. Point Blank Shot, Snatch Arrows, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Shot on the Run.
Normal feats: Elven Accuracy, Deadly Aim, Stabbing Shot (5 ft knockback when in melee for a -2 penalty that, as it explicitly is *not* Rapid shot, *does* potentially stack with Flurry), Reckless Aim, Clustered Shots, Improved Critical (Longbow). Stunning Fist (Got late, and I dunno if the Witchbow gets all the alternative effects, but 20 stuns / day at DC 27+ is worth a feat), Touch of Serenity (Ki Focus lets you do no damage with a strike to stop the target from being able to cast or attack with an arrow!), Elemental Fist, and Punishing Kick (Yes, Ki Focus lets you trip or bullrush with an arrow).
For free: Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialisation (Longbow), Perfect Strike (20 times per day, can attack reroll up to three times), Point Blank Master (Doesn't provoke when firing ranged weapons, which dovetails nicely with her ability to make AoOs with her bow).

Move speed of 90 ft.
AC of +5 from Monk, +7 from Wisdom (before items), with buffs and gear we're looking at the high 30s low 40s.
Saves of 13 or better in everything.
Spell Resistance 30
And with their Ki-Focus Zen Archery ability, their arrows count as Lawful Magic Adamantine weapons for handling DR.
DR 10/Chaotic and various other monk abilities which they still get.

With 20 ranks in Acrobatics, the Witchbow can jump 65 feet. along, or 15 feet upwards from a standing start without rolling (more if she rolls), making her pretty mobile overall.

Key Witchy Spells:
Threefold Aspect - Appear "Motherly" for a +2/+2 Int/Wisdom and an irrelevant -2 Dex, or "Cronely" for a +4/+4 Wis/Int bonus with an equally irrelevant -2 Dex/Str penalty. 24 hour duration level 4 spell. +1 AC, +2 to hit with bows, +2 to DCs like a boss. How this interacts with Timeless Body is anyone's guess.
Clairvoyance - The Witchbow can shoot around corners freely, this lets them see whatever they're shooting at.
Web - Keep targets at range and miserable.
Ki Arrow - 2D10 damage arrow even without ki? Nice. It debatably applies Arcane Archer bonuses to it too, depending on how liberal you are with interpreting "nocking and letting fly".
Ki Leech - Of course.

This is ignoring all the mobility and utility spells I'm taking for granted.

Clustered Shots with Flurry, Ki Empowered, Deadly Aim and Speed Bow.... Eight shots of 2D10 + Weapon Specialisation, +1 Flaming Burst Frost Shock Merciful Distance Axiomatic arrows. Calculate the total damage from all hits (Perfect Striking on all of them if you want) before DR and total it for the total of Massive Damage.

That's 16D10 + 8D6 + 8D6 + 8D6 + 8D6 + 16 + 8 + 32D6 (Against chaotic, or slap in Holy for a more widely applicable 2D6 per) + 8D6 non-lethal if they all hit, before Deadly Aim, at no range penalty if the target within 300 ft, potentially ignoring cover, concealment. Any damage to a single target is combined together before DR (and one assumes Energy resistance) is applied. Taking an average of those rolls, if they all hit.

This works out at: +17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2, +1 from Bow Focus, +2 from Bow Enhancement (just what the Witchbow can enhance for herself), +7 (25 wisdom unboosted). Assuming the Witchbow Novas her Ki into Perfect Strikes on each (Perfect Storm of the Eternal Bow), giving them three attack rolls per arrow, choose best. The first shot is a Quivering Palm hit or something, just for a laugh.

If all of that hits on a single target, average damage is over 336 before DR is applied, excluding crits.

So... Two things.
1: Specialisation is definitely possible with this.
2: We've actually made a useful half-elf!

Any other PrCs outside of Core you're interested in? There's probably going to be a lot of archer/dragon/shadow dancers as is.

rudy
2012-09-05, 11:02 AM
As for the actions, the kind of action economy breaking you are indicating there would function also in a single class system, so there's got to be something I'm missing. As a DM, at minimum, I would limit characters to being able to benefit from one use of Inspire Action per round.

I'll have to think about it more.

Haven't had a chance to analyze your other build yet, but I'll get back to you.

Kholai
2012-09-06, 07:00 AM
As for the actions, the kind of action economy breaking you are indicating there would function also in a single class system, so there's got to be something I'm missing. As a DM, at minimum, I would limit characters to being able to benefit from one use of Inspire Action per round.

I'll have to think about it more.

Haven't had a chance to analyze your other build yet, but I'll get back to you.

Well, to get it as a Swift Action requires you to be a Bard 6 / Pathfinder Chronicler 9; you never pick up full Bardic Inspirations, your spellcasting is mediocre, your BAB is only +10, and essentially, your Standard Action just isn't worth very much.
This said, it's still a hyper-mega-broken class all on its own, since you can make Bardic Music as a Swift, a Standard, and a Move, letting you grant three Standard Actions per round on top of making your other characters Bardic wannabes. They really didn't think this one through; even a level 10 Chronicler can grant two Standards / round, since you can Move Action with a Standard Action and there's no reason *not* to stop playing your Inspire Action.

For your purposes however, Gestalt characters have more valuable standard actions, imagine the Oracle 20//Sorcerer 20 except now they are casting two of their 12+ level 9 spells per *round*.