A tactical feat to let you tank

[sirpercival]

I wrote this a few days ago, as an update to the terrible Goad feat. This should actually let you draw aggro, which is the biggest difficulty with tanking, though it takes some Intimidate investment to really be effective.

I know the DCs are relatively high, but I think that's balanced against the fact that you're making people attack you. Also, I recognize that the first option has similarities to Thicket of Blades, but it's not the same.

Strategic Provocation [Fighter, Tactical]
You've figured out that the best way to keep enemies from attacking your allies is to focus their attacks on you. Usually by being really, really annoying.
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Intimidate 4 ranks, Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: You gain access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Distract: Whenever a creature attempts to move out of your threatened area in any way, you may make an Intimidate check as a free action (opposed by their Sense Motive check) to halt them in their tracks. If you succeed, the creature cannot move out of your threatened area, though it may take other actions as normal. This counts as one of your attacks of opportunity in a round; you cannot use this tactical maneuver if you have no more remaining attacks of opportunity in the round.
Goad: Whenever you deal damage to an opponent, you may choose to do so in such a way that the target is irrationally inclined to swat you. Such an opponent must make a Will save (DC 10 + half the damage dealt) or be forced to attack you on its next turn. The creature may attack you in whatever way it sees fit (including casting spells, using spell-like or supernatural abilities, ranged attacks, etc.), but must focus its efforts on you. If the creature decides to attack you with an effect which affects more than one target (including area effects), it may also attack other creatures, but you must be included in its offensive action. This is a mind-affecting ability; if your Base Attack Bonus is at least +10, it is no longer a mind-affecting ability.
Provoke: Whenever a creature that you threaten attempts to attack or otherwise harm a creature other than you (including by casting spells, using spell-like or supernatural abilities, ranged attacks, etc.), you may spend an immediate action to force the creature to make a Will save (DC 10 + half the result of your Intimidate check) or target you with the same action instead. This is a mind-affecting ability; if you have at least 13 ranks in Intimidate, it is no longer a mind-affecting ability.

[rudy]

Distract should thematically be a bluff check. That would help balance it, too. Perhaps the feat can require some bluff ranks, too.

Goad needs to be damage from a single targeted attack, otherwise the saving throws from full attacks in a round would be absolutely absurd. It may still be too high as it is. Also, it should never stop being mind-affecting.

The saving throw for provoke is absurdly high for intimidate builds; that needs to be gimped.

Overall, a good idea, but far too powerful as it stands.

[sirpercival]

Distract should thematically be a bluff check. That would help balance it, too. Perhaps the feat can require some bluff ranks, too. It'll be much much harder for the characters who want to use the feat to actually use it... Bluff isn't a class skill for any tanky class. Intimidate works -- you're making a face at them. I understand where you're coming from, but mechanically it's just far more useful for it to be Intimidate. Think of it as a minor Duel of Wills, if it helps.


Goad needs to be damage from a single targeted attack, otherwise the saving throws from full attacks in a round would be absolutely absurd. It may still be too high as it is. Also, it should never stop being mind-affecting. Ah yes, I'll clarify about the single targeted attack. I don't think that it's too high, since you're not forcing the opponent to take a particular action, just to include you in whatever it would do. So, it's much less useful to do this to creatures with AoE abilities and spellcasters, but it's still useful, and great against melee creatures. It needs to break mind-affecting because beyond a certain level it will be completely useless otherwise.


The saving throw for provoke is absurdly high for intimidate builds; that needs to be gimped. It's only half-check, not full. I guess I could drop it to quarter-check, though.


Overall, a good idea, but far too powerful as it stands. I think you're overthinking this. How would, it actually play in a real combat? It's not as powerful as it looks.

[Virdish]

If you make it always mind effecting then your making it useless for many high level encounters where this is meant to create a tank build I personally agree with this changing because it keeps the feat usefull at high levels of play.

[Cieyrin]

I'd make Provoke more static and just be 10+ranks in Intimidate, as the roll is pretty easily munchkined to ridiculous levels by existing Intimidate optimization tactics, like Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885) and many others.

[TopCheese]

I wrote this a few days ago, as an update to the terrible Goad feat. This should actually let you draw aggro, which is the biggest difficulty with tanking, though it takes some Intimidate investment to really be effective.

I know the DCs are relatively high, but I think that's balanced against the fact that you're making people attack you. Also, I recognize that the first option has similarities to Thicket of Blades, but it's not the same.

Strategic Provocation [Fighter, Tactical]
You've figured out that the best way to keep enemies from attacking your allies is to focus their attacks on you. Usually by being really, really annoying.
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Intimidate 4 ranks, Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: You gain access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Distract: Whenever a creature attempts to move out of your threatened area in any way, you may make an Intimidate check as a free action (opposed by their Sense Motive check) to halt them in their tracks. If you succeed, the creature cannot move out of your threatened area, though it may take other actions as normal. This counts as one of your attacks of opportunity in a round; you cannot use this tactical maneuver if you have no more remaining attacks of opportunity in the round.
Goad: Whenever you deal damage to an opponent, you may choose to do so in such a way that the target is irrationally inclined to swat you. Such an opponent must make a Will save (DC 10 + half the damage dealt) or be forced to attack you on its next turn. The creature may attack you in whatever way it sees fit (including casting spells, using spell-like or supernatural abilities, ranged attacks, etc.), but must focus its efforts on you. If the creature decides to attack you with an effect which affects more than one target (including area effects), it may also attack other creatures, but you must be included in its offensive action. This is a mind-affecting ability; if your Base Attack Bonus is at least +10, it is no longer a mind-affecting ability.
Provoke: Whenever a creature that you threaten attempts to attack or otherwise harm a creature other than you (including by casting spells, using spell-like or supernatural abilities, ranged attacks, etc.), you may spend an immediate action to force the creature to make a Will save (DC 10 + half the result of your Intimidate check) or target you with the same action instead. This is a mind-affecting ability; if you have at least 13 ranks in Intimidate, it is no longer a mind-affecting ability.

I love this.

Swift actions! Will Save based on damage! A non mind effecting ability at bab + 10!

However what about the low Dex builds? Combat reflexes doesn't help them at all (even though they still can take it) so why making another feat be a prereq along with combat reflexes?
Perhaps lightning reflexes, skill focus intimidate, or something else that at least won't be dead space? Although both my examples are not good feats they at least will give the fighter something you know. As is there will be a lot of fighter giving up 2 feat slots to gain 1 feat (but what a feat it is :D).

Of course I wish every feat was like that.. Where you just had to take it. :D

Next time someone plays a fighter in my game (or I do) I'm going to try this out. I'll give it to the fighter for free (class feature) and fluff it however.

[Ziegander]

Of course I wish every feat was like that.. Where you just had to take it. :D

Damn. That's actually a profoundly awesome idea for feat design, and one that I will henceforce be taking to heart for my Codex of War project. Every feat I design will be something that martial characters feel like, if they meet the prerequisites, they have to take. Now THAT'S balance.

[sirpercival]

Damn. That's actually a profoundly awesome idea for feat design, and one that I will henceforce be taking to heart for my Codex of War project. Every feat I design will be something that martial characters feel like, if they meet the prerequisites, they have to take. Now THAT'S balance.

Lol.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with Distract. That's the one that's just better than Stand Still... I'm happy to replace it with something else, but I haven't decided what.

[Ziegander]

Lol.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with Distract. That's the one that's just better than Stand Still... I'm happy to replace it with something else, but I haven't decided what.

Hey man, laugh if you want, but I'm not kidding. If, whenever a martial character is presented with the chance to take a feat, they go, "****, I can take 10 different feats right now and all of them are perfect and amazing for my build," that is awesome, in my opinion. They are Fighters and they deserve nice things.

Now, you and other people are saying that Distract is just "better" than Stand Still, and in many ways it is, and it's just one option of this feat. However, Stand Still can be taken at 1st level and doesn't require Intimidate ranks or an Intimidate check. It doesn't even require Combat Reflexes. I don't know that calling it better is a fair comparison to make.

Also, I'm of the opinion that, while Stand Still is a pretty good feat (compared to other feats that martial characters are able to take), it is still not good enough. Hence my own straight up improvement of it in the Codex of War (although even mine requires BAB +3).

[sirpercival]

Fair enough! Feel free to appropriate this for Codex of War. ;)

[TuggyNE]

Of course I wish every feat was like that.. Where you just had to take it. :D

If all feats feel equally must-have, that's probably OK. However, that is not literally possible, so a more reasonable balance point avoids this; a feat that every build (of a particular sort) actually does have to take is called a feat tax, and should be avoided. (Think Power Attack and Natural Spell.)

Instead, aim between "I must have this!" and "Why would anyone ever take this?": a feat that is often preferable for builds, but not always.

[Dumbledore lives]

I like this feat, the only problem I see is that each element uses a different opposed check which is kind of sloppy design. I'd say make every opponent check a will save, and every requirement based off intimidate just so it looks a bit cleaner, plus it won't really change the mechanics much.

[TopCheese]

Damn. That's actually a profoundly awesome idea for feat design, and one that I will henceforce be taking to heart for my Codex of War project. Every feat I design will be something that martial characters feel like, if they meet the prerequisites, they have to take. Now THAT'S balance.

Oh wow awesome!

I really believe that is how they made spells. They wanted people to take the spells so they made them awesome and "must take". Sure there are some spells out there that are so so BUT most spells are just to good to pass up.

They made feats to be balanced since they thought ... Well whatever they thought. Maybe they thought it would sell better and mages would be played the most with fighter and co. In the background. *shrug*

@tuggyne: Why can't every feat be must have? I love tough decisions of chocolate icecream versus chocolate icecream.

[Gnorman]

Problem is it's often hard to make feats seem as "cool" as spells.

Anyway, great feat, nice job. Seal of approval from me, tanking needs much love.

[TopCheese]

Problem is it's often hard to make feats seem as "cool" as spells.

Anyway, great feat, nice job. Seal of approval from me, tanking needs much love.

I didn't say they had to be "as cool" as spells. I just think whoever was over spells and whoever was over feats had different things in mind.

However this homebrewed feat does the trick so why can't a company that makes the product do the same?

Even the skill feats that are only taken for prerequesites (+2 to a skill) could have been made to give a scaling bonus and allow you to "take 10" once you hit ECL 10. Although some skills would be used more than other (based on group and game) but the feats would be wonderful to take *shrug*.

*note*: I know some of the problems from 3.5 was from lack of listening to their fan base. You can't really blame it on playtesting since 3.0 was playtested and only minor things got changed (I'm looking at you haste).

[PhaedrusXY]

3rd ability needs a range. As written, you could bait everyone in the universe.

[sirpercival]

3rd ability needs a range. As written, you could bait everyone in the universe.

Only if you threaten every square in the universe... :D

Good to see you here, phae! Speaking of threatening every square in the universe, did you see Seven-Forged Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267166)?

[SamBurke]

Hey man, laugh if you want, but I'm not kidding. If, whenever a martial character is presented with the chance to take a feat, they go, "****, I can take 10 different feats right now and all of them are perfect and amazing for my build," that is awesome, in my opinion. They are Fighters and they deserve nice things.

This. It is truth.

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

Hmmm, I like this feat, but once again, as has been expressed, Combat Reflexes is kind of dead in this.
My suggestion would be to coordinate it with a different feat that I've found to be useful in getting between that sword-blow and your squishy spellcaster.

The Feats are:
Constant Guardian
Dutiful Guardian

These feats come from Drow of the Underdark.
If you use these feats, it would make sense to me. You deliberately get in your opponents way and keep them locked onto you constantly with this tactical feat.

Thoughts? I'd like to use this feat for my Warforged Fighter that was built as a (nearly) pure tank.

[sirpercival]

Hmmm, I like this feat, but once again, as has been expressed, Combat Reflexes is kind of dead in this.
My suggestion would be to coordinate it with a different feat that I've found to be useful in getting between that sword-blow and your squishy spellcaster.

The Feats are:
Constant Guardian
Dutiful Guardian

These feats come from Drow of the Underdark.
If you use these feats, it would make sense to me. You deliberately get in your opponents way and keep them locked onto you constantly with this tactical feat.

Thoughts? I'd like to use this feat for my Warforged Fighter that was built as a (nearly) pure tank.

Well, Combat Reflexes is a very common feat for tanks, and since it's core it's more often allowed than DotU (which is somewhat obscure). I'd rather not make it an official change, but I recommend that your DM allow that as it makes a lot of sense.

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

Well, Combat Reflexes is a very common feat for tanks, and since it's core it's more often allowed than DotU (which is somewhat obscure). I'd rather not make it an official change, but I recommend that your DM allow that as it makes a lot of sense.

O.K. Thanks, I'll try to get in touch with him and see if your feat works with what he is allowing. I've been trying to tank but he's killed 2 or 3 PCs. Granted, it's because I haven't been around but when I have been there it's been hard for me to tank even with Dutiful Guardian.