WhatIf: Tome of Battle rule for Psionics

[Andorax]

What if you allowed a mechanic similar to the Tome of Battle's "half your non-initiator levels count towards your IL" rule, and something akin to the "Martial Study" and "Martial Stance" rules were brought in?

The basic rule changes:

1) Half of your non-manifesting levels and HD count as ML towards your metapsionic cap.

2) Hidden Talent is (made available and) changed to grant you a single power from any list of up to whatever maximum power level you'd have access to if you were a Psion of level = your ML, and Psi points equal to your effective ML at the time you take the feat.


A 12th level, otherwise non-psionic character, would have an "effective" ML of 6, and could take the Hidden Talent feat at 12th to gain access to Telekinetic Force as a power, and 6 psi points (enough to use it once a day).

A 12th level Psion could take the Hidden Talent feat, pick up Form of Doom (a 6th level Psiwar power), and add +12 psi points to his pool.


Good idea? Bad idea? Unintended consequences?

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, the thing that makes the system work for ToB is the inherent weakness of mundane combat. Psionics really doesn't need that. The half level rule doesn't apply for binding, which is far more similar to ToB than the XPH is.

[Snowbluff]

Well, the thing that makes the system work for ToB is the inherent weakness of mundane combat. Psionics really doesn't need that. The half level rule doesn't apply for binding, which is far more similar to ToB than the XPH is.

Meldshapers, on the other hand, get there other levels added for determining maximum essentia investment. Maybe Binders should be given the 1/2 rule like the ToBers, since they seem to be the odds ones out.

[eggs]

I'm going to assume you'd axe Practiced Manifester. And if you weren't going to, you probably should, or else Psionics would end up with Ur-Priest degrees of multiclassing freedom.

Hidden Talent sounds too good (Expanded Knowledge, Hidden Talent and Psychic Reformation are some of the best psionic feats already; this combines them and does it better); I'd suspect this HT would get Font of Inspiration syndrome, where almost every one of a character's feat is effectively locked. I'd also hesitate because it sounds like a paperwork nightmare trying to doublecheck PP numbers based on when HT was taken or to figure out how swapping HT aroudn is going to affect the character's PP.

Between [Deeper] Psychic Meditation and Hidden talent, you'll probably have the concept of "effectively-manifesting mundanes" working already; the one tweak you might want is to adopt the Dreamscarred Press Wild Talent (Devotion) (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/wild-talent-devotion) or to allow Hidden Talent multiple times.

[shadow_archmagi]

Hidden Talent sounds too good (Expanded Knowledge, Hidden Talent and Psychic Reformation are some of the best psionic feats already; this combines them and does it better).

So, a level 9 character gets 9 PP and knowledge of a fifth level power? Essentially, that's a new ability and exactly enough juice to use it once per day?

That's *good* but I wouldn't call it broken or freakishly good.

[eggs]

It wouldn't be gamebreaking, but the only thing that change would accomplish is removing decisions from character building.

You're playing a level 17 Psychic warrior under the current system and you have decisions on whether to grab a Psychic Meditation for your ML in PP, or an Expanded Knowledge for a level 5- power. Neither are bad choices; both can justify the feat slot (17 PP might not sound like much, but maybe think about it like +15 damage to claw attacks or 3 daily Claws of the Vampire or 6 daily pounces).

But if there's an option to learn Greater Metamorphosis and get the 17 PP, that's kind of a locked choice - and that's essentially the decision posed at every level of progression - a level 2 power or 8 PP or Metamorphosis AND 8 PP, etc.

If Psychic Meditation or Expanded Knowledge were bad feats, I might not be that against buffing Hidden Talent. But they're not; they're already compelling options in most builds. It's not a needed change and it's a change that would detract from character-building decisions.

[Andorax]

So, a level 9 character gets 9 PP and knowledge of a fifth level power? Essentially, that's a new ability and exactly enough juice to use it once per day?

That's *good* but I wouldn't call it broken or freakishly good.

If the character were a psionic character already, yes.

If the character had no ML from classes to begin with, then a level 9 character would count as a 4th level psion in terms of what he or she could pick....a 2nd level power. And would get 4 pp.


So...too good for already-psionic individuals. I suppose the same could be said for the Martial stance/study feats, but is limited by maneuvers readied....while Psionisists have no such restriction.


What about if it were locked into the same progression regardless of if you're psionic already or not?

1st: 1 pp, 1st level power, effective ML 1
3rd: 1 pp, 1st level power, effective ML 1
6th: 3 pp, 2nd level power, effective ML 3
9th: 4 pp, 2nd level power, effective ML 4
12th: 6 pp, 3rd level power, effective ML 6
15th: 7 pp, 4th level power, effective ML 7
18th: 9 pp, 5th level power, effective ML 9

Should it be further limited to only being able to take it 3x, similar to Martial Study (to curtail taking it with every feat)?



One of the things I really like about Bo9S is that a high-level "something else" can take something from it that's relatively useful. Consider the 18th level fighter/paladin/monk/non-caster type.

Martial Study at 18th level gives him...a 5th level maneuver he can use once every fight.

Hidden Talent (as writ) gives him....a 1st level power.

Hidden Talent (as above) gives him a 5th level power he can use, essentially, only once a day.

[shadow_archmagi]

So...too good for already-psionic individuals.

I dunno. At level, say, 6, a Psion has 35 PP+int and knows 13 powers, so an extra 6 PP would be a less than 10% increase in total PP and powers known, and that extra 6 PP is only going to become less and less meaningful as the Psion levels up.

Admittedly, having an extra power known of your highest level would be nice at the time.

If I were in that campaign, I'd take it if

A. There were, say, lots of good powers at that level but I didn't want to give up powers of the NEXT level for them

B. I knew that the game wouldn't be lasting so long that I'd have to worry about having crummy feats at level 18

EDIT: It's pretty good for Psychic Warriors, but they need to spend piles of feats on things like trip and power attack and so forth to be functional warriors, so a good psionic feat might not be affordable on that budget.

[TopCheese]

So Ill be "that guy" and say it.

Why not apply this to magic also?

You have a fighter who has been working with a cleric for a while and although may not worship the same god, that god may give him some power (up to what they can use) to help the cleric by proxy.

Fluff it up as the fighter or rogue watching the wizard or sorcerer enough to know how to use a spell. No where near as good as say a first level wizard but just a bit of dabbling.

This no where near brings balance to core... But it will help a bit with the mundane guys getting something fun

Oh and make it a Fighter Bonus Feat.

[Ashtagon]

A more interesting what-if...

What if the ToB style mechanics had been used for psionics?

[Roguenewb]

A more, more interesting what if-

What if Psionics had been used for sorcerer?

[Andorax]

Hey, get your own WhatIf: threads! :smallsmile:



Other thoughts? Does it accomplish the similar goal of letting you take a splash of an alternate system, but have it be relevant...or to provide a reasonable boost to what you're already doing?

That's what I see the Martial Study/Stance feats doing, and what I'd like this to do as well.