Gish challenge

[Deodarthethird]

Using this base character see how good a 20 level gish character you can build, losing as few wizard casting levels as possible, the most absolutely awesome wins :smallcool:

Str: 10
Dex:18
Con:16
Int:18
Wis:12
Cha:7

Tiefling wizard (focused specialist Transmuter with either immediate magic or other familiar buyout alternative class [I hate familiars]) 4

Feats: spell focus (transmuter) & (conjurer), and weapon finesse
Flaws:Murky eyed
Banned schools: Necromancy, Evocation, Enchantment

I know this is a bit of a cop out :smallredface: but I am really hopeless at this, and wanted a twist on my normal feeble old man wizard. Thanks in advance guys :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Continue Wizard

3: Take Dodge
6: Take
7: Start Swiftblade, take until SB9.
After wards go Abjurant Champion5, Metaphysical Spellshaper3 (-1 MM cost, take ability damage for MM. It's broke), or Incantatrix (get some persistomancy)


Other feats:
Arcane Thesis: Celerity
Twin Spell
Arcane Strike (duh)
Repeat Spell (Take easy MM for this)
Twin Spell (Easy Metamagic for this too)
Persistent spell if you go MSS or Incant


Pretty much action economy on caffeine. Use repeat (+0, IIRC) twin (+2 ) celerities for extra standard actions left and right. Enjoy your extra stand action. Laugh at those slow young whipsnappers.

Use Luminous Armor and Shield for AC if you are good and are taking Abjchamp. Abjchamp2 might be nice for the Swift action abjurations alone.

[Deodarthethird]

Continue Wizard

3: Take Dodge
6: Take
7: Start Swiftblade, take until SB9.
After wards go Abjurant Champion5, Metaphysical Spellshaper3 (-1 MM cost, take ability damage for MM. It's broke), or Incantatrix (get some persistomancy)


Other feats:
Arcane Thesis: Celerity
Twin Spell
Arcane Strike (duh)
Repeat Spell (Take easy MM for this)
Twin Spell (Easy Metamagic for this too)
Persistent spell if you go MSS or Incant


Pretty much action economy on caffeine. Use repeat (+0, IIRC) twin (+2 ) celerities for extra standard actions left and right. Enjoy your extra stand action. Laugh at those slow young whipsnappers.

Use Luminous Armor and Shield for AC if you are good and are taking Abjchamp. Abjchamp2 might be nice for the Swift action abjurations alone.

okay well minus that I can't take dodge at level three (took weapon finesse) and I can't see what you wrote at six (seems to be missing??)

the rest of the build seems fine, but correct me if im wrong thats a 23 level build, is it not? or did i miss something?

[Snowbluff]

okay well minus that I can't take dodge at level three (took weapon finesse) and I can't see what you wrote at six (seems to be missing??)

the rest of the build seems fine, but correct me if im wrong thats a 23 level build, is it not? or did i miss something?

Should say Mobility at six. Weird. I guess it's too late to grab another flaw or the ACF for your Wizard feats to become fighter feats?

Sorry, I'll make it more clear.

This build is:

Wizard6/SB9/Abjchamp5

or

Wizard6/MSS3/SB9/Abjchamp2

or

Wizard6/SB9/Incantatrix3-5

[Deodarthethird]

Should say Mobility at six. Weird. I guess it's too late to grab another flaw or the ACF for your Wizard feats to become fighter feats?

Sorry, I'll make it more clear.

This build is:

Wizard6/SB9/Abjchamp5

or

Wizard6/MSS3/SB9/Abjchamp2

or

Wizard6/SB9/Incantatrix3-5

That makes more sense, :smallbiggrin:

what book is the MSS in? haven't seen that one...

EDIT: missed one thing my banned schools are evocation, enchantment and Necromancy, isn't celerity an evocation spell?

[Snowbluff]

That makes more sense, :smallbiggrin:

what book is the MSS in? haven't seen that one...

Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's third party, but despite it's content, it ironically seems to be the most allowed/noted 3rd party book. It's stupidly easy to get into (like 3 ranks in craft, 5 in Know: Arcane, 5 in Spellcraft 3rd level spells, and a metamagic), full casting.

The capstone is almost identical to Incantatrix's. The second level is a free MM feat. The first level let's you take ability damage per slot adjustment to spontaneously apply a metamagic feat (Increases action cost, though. Good for Persist). Overall, I would consider it a shorter Incantatrix that is too easy to get into.

[Kazyan]

Hmm...how does Wizard 5/Swordsage 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5 sound? Shuffle JPM and Abj.Champ levels to taste. Take the Shadow Blade feat at 6th level to improve damage output.

[Feralventas]

Hmm...how does Wizard 5/Swordsage 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5 sound? Shuffle JPM and Abj.Champ levels to taste. Take the Shadow Blade feat at 6th level to improve damage output.

Wouldn't Warblade or Crusader be a better dip rather than Swordsage?
Warblade 1 gets Int to Reflex saves, and has an easy recover mechanic.
Crusader's a little more complicated, but still gets +1 BAB and can work right into the higher level Devoted Spirit maneuvers.

[killianh]

warblade 1/ Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Paragnostic Apostle 2?

16 BAB, 9ths, pretty good health.

I would have to say though that with the stats you posted a better route to go rather than a gish would be a blast sniper of some kind, which would just need a mailman build tailored to a wizard. Maybe more of an overall rogue/wizard mix rather than just sniper

[Kazyan]

Wouldn't Warblade or Crusader be a better dip rather than Swordsage?
Warblade 1 gets Int to Reflex saves, and has an easy recover mechanic.
Crusader's a little more complicated, but still gets +1 BAB and can work right into the higher level Devoted Spirit maneuvers.

True, if it's worth not picking up Shadow Blade. Which...it probably is, now that you mention it.

[Thomasinx]

Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's third party, but despite it's content, it ironically seems to be the most allowed/noted 3rd party book. It's stupidly easy to get into (like 3 ranks in craft, 5 in Know: Arcane, 5 in Spellcraft 3rd level spells, and a metamagic), full casting.

The capstone is almost identical to Incantatrix's. The second level is a free MM feat. The first level let's you take ability damage per slot adjustment to spontaneously apply a metamagic feat (Increases action cost, though. Good for Persist). Overall, I would consider it a shorter Incantatrix that is too easy to get into.

No DM should ever allow the book of erotic fantasy, and especially not the MSS prestige class. MSS is also possibly the most broken caster prestige class in any of the 3rd party books, far beyond Incantatrix. It is one of the easiest methods of getting effectively free metamagic. (example, a single level of binder + naberius gives you fast healing of 1 ability score per round...)

Dont try it. If I were your DM, this would merit throwing the book at you.

[killianh]

No DM should ever allow the book of erotic fantasy, and especially not the MSS prestige class. MSS is also possibly the most broken caster prestige class in any of the 3rd party books, far beyond Incantatrix. It is one of the easiest methods of getting effectively free metamagic. (example, a single level of binder + naberius gives you fast healing of 1 ability score per round...)

Dont try it. If I were your DM, this would merit throwing the book at you.

IIRC its also only three levels :smalleek:

Off topic that book should primarily be used by DMs for culture building, and some of the nice charts. One of the casters is CON based for crying out loud. goodbye only weakness.

On topic. this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786) should give you a lot more info on gish building

[Deodarthethird]

hmm, I've come up with one, but i don't know how solid it is, or if it can be improved upon.

Wizard 4/Swashbuckler3/Abjurant champion 4/ Eldritch Knight 9

is that any good?

[ThiagoMartell]

Yet another thread of "help me with my build" disguised as a challenge :smallsigh:

[killianh]

That build is as good as any. The core things you want with any gish is at least 16 BAB, and 17th caster level. The build you has covers that well enough

[Deodarthethird]

That build is as good as any. The core things you want with any gish is at least 16 BAB, and 17th caster level. The build you has covers that well enough

Hmm, I lose 4 caster levels, is it that important to be caster level 17?

[Fable Wright]

Minimal lost caster levels, you say? Wizard 5/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom +7. Retrain into the Militia feat, grab Still Spell and Combat Casting, and your feat tax for your classes is done. Ends with +17 BAB and 19th level Wizard casting. If no retraining is available, then you would have to try a different take on it.

Swiftblade can be fun, if you want your old man to also be ridiculously fast and hard to hit when he starts Hastes himself.

However, a problem you're going to run into here is that you have no real way to do damage with any of your attacks. Gish builds generally hinge upon one outlet to deal heavy damage that actually allows them to be useful in combat- normally, this is Power Attack, potentially with Wraithstrike. However, your 10 Strength is going to be a bit of a problem for that. One way to rectify this might be to use Bull's Strength and Heroics before each encounter, but this requires preparing a bunch of spells to make you relevant, being aware of combats before getting in them, and preparing this in a lot of slots. If you can convince your DM, you could ask him to allows you to, say, take 2 points out of Dex and put them in Strength, and then swap your 4th level Stat boost out of Charisma into Strength, and then grab Power Attack with a flaw, but that is very DM reliant, and doesn't help you all too much. You might be able to convince him to let you do that while you progress to 9th level, where you would have to grab Power Attack to remain relevant, but then you're spending your first 8 levels or so running around the battlefield, basically being a fast wizard that can dodge a few hits.

A different way to go about it would be to get damage through Maneuvers- though this pidgeonholes you into using Jade Phoenix Mage. Going Wizard 6/Warblade 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 2 would get you the damage you need, at the cost of a few caster levels. It might be less amusing than the rocket-powered old man, but it gets the job done and delivers the damage on time.

@Deodar: 17th caster level gets you 9th level spells. Also, I really, really don't recommend going Swashbuckler 3. It shuts down your casting for a few levels, and you're not going to be very relevant until you finally get the third level ability. I would really suggest going Warblade-> Jade Phoenix Mage instead... aside from keeping you more relevant in combat and casting, it also actually gives you nifty class features to enjoy.

[killianh]

Hmm, I lose 4 caster levels, is it that important to be caster level 17?

whoops. I counted wrong. Yeah losing that last one is a generally bad thing as you will lose access to level 9 spells.

A build I used before thats a lot of fun is Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Paragnostic Apostle 2 maybe that would help

[docnessuno]

No DM should ever allow the book of erotic fantasy, and especially not the MSS prestige class. MSS is also possibly the most broken caster prestige class in any of the 3rd party books, far beyond Incantatrix. It is one of the easiest methods of getting effectively free metamagic. (example, a single level of binder + naberius gives you fast healing of 1 ability score per round...)

Dont try it. If I were your DM, this would merit throwing the book at you.

Altought feat intensive, you can also get free infinite persist with a single level of spelldancer (offical material)

[Essence_of_War]

Are you married to the race/initial class?

If you aren't:

Human Paragon 1/ Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2-3/ Crusader 1/Wizard 2/ Spellsword 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 1-10

If you are:

Wizard 4/Swashbuckler1/Warblade OR Crusader 1/ Spellsword 1/JPM 1-10

In either case, cap with Abjurant Champion if you get that far.

[cZak]

Is the game likely to go above 15th level PC's?
Seems pretty rare for a game to last long enough to get past 12. So focusing on getting 9ths (spells/ maneuvers/ etc...) is a nice exercise, but rarely likely.

Playing a gish is a fun idea, but builds rarely meet out the expectations at table top. You can't get the AC or hit points to stand toe to toe at the front lines. Or you use up 2-3 rounds of buffing to make it possible pending some mischievousness (Celerity, DMM persist, preordained knowledge that isn't reasonable, etc...) .
If you want to play an arcane caster with actual melee support you use a reach weapon (stay behind the tanks) and methods that help the tanks; maneuvers (ToB), flanking, tripping, disarming, etc...

The Jade phoenix mage does cover some of this fairly well.
A wizard/ Crusader build gets you maneuvers (White raven, Devoted spirit) that provide benefits to your team mates, and for long combats (>5 rounds) you get a second chance to reuse those 'tricks'. This frees up your spell selection for other things.
With JPM you dip into the Desert wind school for some tactical possibilities; battle field control (Firesnake) or debuff (Lingering inferno). And again, for long combats you potentially get a refresh to use those 'tricks' again. Almost as good as a reserve feat, but no feat tax.
The loss of two caster levels is less painful because you are getting abilities (maneuvers) that cover some of the things you would be doing as a spell caster anyways. Not saying maneuvers = spells, but its better than losing spells for feats which is definitely worse.

[Roguenewb]

hmm, I've come up with one, but i don't know how solid it is, or if it can be improved upon.

Wizard 4/Swashbuckler3/Abjurant champion 4/ Eldritch Knight 9

is that any good?

I've seen builds like this, they are a lot better if you swap out EK for Swiftblade. you max out at 7th level spells though. But you'll be fast and hit like a frieght train. You can also do like

Wizard 3/Swashbuckler3/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 6/Wizard 2. You miss 5 caster levels (3 swash, 2 from swiftblade), but you still get 8th level spells. Dragonslayer and swiftblade use the same prereq.

[Seharvepernfan]

(focused specialist Transmuter with either immediate magic

What is immediate magic?

[asuev]

Book of Erotic Fantasy


too easy to get into.

I see what you've done there.

[eggs]

I'm a big fan of Ranger 1/Martial Transmuter 4/Impure Prince 6/Master Harper 6/Abjurant Champion 3, for most of the MH's super-ranger abilities, plus symbionts and all their creepy goodness, and for a build that doesn't ever get a real slump (even at its low-point at ECL 5, Alter Self, Knowledge Devotion and Benign Transposition make it more than a decent melee build.

But if you're trying to milk every CL out of the mix, Martial Domain Wizard 5/Raumathari Battlemage 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Escalation Mage 6 maintains full CL and is completely viable, if a bit squishy until False Life and Alter Self come online. Between Knowledge Devotion, Arcane Strike and a few natural attacks (from Girallon's Blessing/Polymorph/whatever), the low BA isn't a huge deal; between various sources of temporary HP, and the wizard's usual spell tricks, it maintains survivability; between Battlemage's channeling, Escalation Mage's free metamagic and the usual Abjurant Champion abilities, it has some tricks beyond the normal wizard spell list.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You could loose the last level of Impure prince (while 50% fortification is nice, but an extra CL can get you that an more)

Where is Master Harper from? And I am little leery of mixing Settings; but it sounds like a strong build.

[eggs]

You could loose the last level of Impure prince (while 50% fortification is nice, but an extra CL can get you that an more)
True. I misremembered where the second tier of symbionts came in. Shove AbjChamp 4 in there then.

Where is Master Harper from? And I am little leery of mixing Settings; but it sounds like a strong build.
It's on the WotC web page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a). The skill requirements are tough (but familiars, Otyugh hole and Apprentice: Entertainer make them a bit less bad), but it pays off with full caster progression on a solid frame with a few nifty abilities and bonus feats tossed in on the way.

Both the classes are tied closely to their settings; so that could be awkward, depending how that's handled. My group doesn't really use published campaign settings, so we end up blurring the lines hard; but I could see that being an issue.

EDIT:
Levels are also written out of order; mostly because scattering AbjChamp levels throughout the build bloats the listing into nonsense.

[Lostbutseeking]

What is immediate magic?

Immediate magic is a set of alternate class features for wizards from PHB2 that replace your familiar. Each specialisation has it's own and most of them are pretty much meh. Conjuration however gets an immediate action teleport, which is amazingly powerful.

[Seharvepernfan]

Immediate magic is a set of alternate class features for wizards from PHB2 that replace your familiar. Each specialisation has it's own and most of them are pretty much meh. Conjuration however gets an immediate action teleport, which is amazingly powerful.

So what does transmutation get?

I'm interested, because my favorite build is scout/transmuter/swiftblade.

[eggs]

Transmutation gets a round of climb/fly/swim speed.
Illusion gets a round of one mirror image.

The rest are just bad.

[Seharvepernfan]

Transmutation gets a round of climb/fly/swim speed.
Illusion gets a round of one mirror image.

The rest are just bad.

One more question: Is the spell-like ability at will?

[Godskook]

Its an arcane rogue and not a 'true' gish, but:

Wizard 4/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer X

You can then fill in with Daggerspell Mage, Arcane Trickster, or a few other relevantly hybrid classes.

The most important part of the build is getting the ranger spell that adds SA onto your spell list. Add to this the spells that give free-action attacks for rounds/level, and you have *HUGE* free action damage per round when you're buffed. And since you've got a great skill list, you'll likely have the skill checks to stay hidden until you can get buffed.

[Lostbutseeking]

One more question: Is the spell-like ability at will?

It's intelligence bonus / day with a minimum of one.

[Deodarthethird]

Okay after a bit of fiddling and reading over the knight phantom class (which is rather good) I have decide upon this build, stop me if you see any majour holes (beside the loss of four CLs) or even if you can think of something else to tag on at the end other than Phantom Knight, or maybe a rearranging of feats?

Feats in italics are unchangeable/from the class or race

Transmuter specialist 5 - Focused specialist alternative features; Immediate Magic (transmutation), spontaneous Divination,
Necromancy, Evocation and Enchantment are banned schools
Feats: Spell focus (Transmutation [+2CL]), Spell focus (Conjuration [+2CL]), still spell (level 3), weapon proficiency simple and martial, light armour proficiency, and shield proficiency
Swashbuckler 3
Feats: weapon finesse, Grace +1, Insightful strike, Combat Casting (level 6)
Phantom Knight 1
Feats: Phantom Steed, Somatic Prowess, Practiced spell caster (level 9)
Abjurent Champion 4
Feats: Abjurant Armour, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost, Arcane Strike (Level 12)
Phantom Knight 7
Feats: Aspect of the Phantom, countenance of the phantom, Improved Initiative (level 15), Toughening Transmutation (level 18)

total BAB= +20
Total ECL= 20 (actual wizard caster level= 16)

[Lostbutseeking]

Okay after a bit of fiddling and reading over the knight phantom class (which is rather good) I have decide upon this build, stop me if you see any majour holes (beside the loss of four CLs) or even if you can think of something else to tag on at the end other than Phantom Knight?

Wizard 5/Swashbuckler 3/Knight Phantom 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Knight Phantom 7

Picking up Abjurant champion 5 instead of Knight Phantom 8 will boost your CL by 1 for no cost.

[Deodarthethird]

Picking up Abjurant champion 5 instead of Knight Phantom 8 will boost your CL by 1 for no cost.

will it? didn't notice that...

Edit: had a look, I'm not seeing it? am I just not reading it right?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Abjurant Champion is 5/5 while Eldritch Knight (Knight Phantom) is 9/10; but in thos first 5 levels (and overal) Abj. Cham gets 1 more caster level.

[Lostbutseeking]

will it? didn't notice that...

Edit: had a look, I'm not seeing it? am I just not reading it right?

Abjurant champions level 5 ability raises your CL to your BAB if it's lower. Your build has 16 CL and 17 BAB.

Of course if you take practiced spellcaster it doesn't matter in the least.

[Deodarthethird]

Abjurant champions level 5 ability raises your CL to your BAB if it's lower. Your build has 16 CL and 17 BAB.

Of course if you take practiced spellcaster it doesn't matter in the least.

Huh? 17 Bab? i must have miscounted :smallredface:

yeah i thought the easiest way to counter the loss was that feat :smallsmile:
unless you think that's a waste of a feat? is there another feat I would be better off with?

[Lostbutseeking]

Huh? 17 Bab? i must have miscounted :smallredface:

yeah i thought the easiest way to counter the loss was that feat :smallsmile:
unless you think that's a waste of a feat? is there another feat I would be better off with?

You lose 3 BAB in your 5 wizard levels. Practiced spellcaster isn't a waste of a feat but there are some worth considering; Power attack (putting level ups in str to qualify at 12) , EWP: spiked chain, Extend spell, Persist spell and Easy metamagic:Persist.

At level 18 toughening transmutation is most certainly a waste of a feat.

You can can get Improved initiative ( or any other fighter feat) in place of scribe scroll using the martial wizard variant.

I'm not sure where you are getting shield proficiency from, not that you wan't it, Swashbuckler doesn't grant it. Or the +2CL from spell focus.

[Deodarthethird]

You lose 3 BAB in your 5 wizard levels. Practiced spellcaster isn't a waste of a feat but there are some worth considering; Power attack (putting level ups in str to qualify at 12) , EWP: spiked chain, Extend spell, Persist spell and Easy metamagic:Persist.

At level 18 toughening transmutation is most certainly a waste of a feat.

You can can get Improved initiative ( or any other fighter feat) in place of scribe scroll using the martial wizard variant.

I'm not sure where you are getting shield proficiency from, not that you wan't it, Swashbuckler doesn't grant it. Or the +2CL from spell focus.

Shield proficiency comes from Tiefling race, spell focus gives you the choice of +2DC to resist or +2 CL for specific school. I kind of see your point about toughening transmutation however...

If i took the martial wizard variant would not allow me to get spontaneous divination, however, which i kinda have my heart set on.

[ThiagoMartell]

IIRC, tiefling does not grant you shield proficiency, it just grants proficiency with martial weapons.

[Lostbutseeking]

Shield proficiency comes from Tiefling race, spell focus gives you the choice of +2DC to resist or +2 CL for specific school. I kind of see your point about toughening transmutation however...

If i took the martial wizard variant would not allow me to get spontaneous divination, however, which i kinda have my heart set on.

Spell focus is just +1DC to spells of that school.

Martial wizard doesnt block sponaneous divination as it requires only that you lose the bonus feat you gain at 5, which you still get, it's just off a different list.

As 0 RHD outsiders tieflings have no extra weapon, armor or shield proficiencies other than what they gain through class levels. They are also 1 LA unless you are allowed the lesser version, which isn't an outsider.

Fair point Dusk, as a trait it appears they get it regardless of RHD. With shield proficiency following automatically from any armor proficiency.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Spell focus is just +1DC to spells of that school.

Martial wizard doesnt block sponaneous divination as it requires only that you lose the bonus feat you gain at 5, which you still get, it's just off a different list.

As 0 RHD outsiders tieflings have no extra weapon, armor or shield proficiencies other than what they gain through class levels. They are also 1 LA unless you are allowed the lesser version.

[Citation Needed]