Transformational PrCs

[Kazyan]

Our group is on the fast track to reaching epic levels. How far we'll go is uncertain, but for the "epic is broken" concerns: our Cleric heals and our Spontaneous Theurge blasts. The content will not run out. Anyway, the Totemist epic progression is bleh, so I would like to enter a fancy prestige class. If becoming Epic doesn't create some character development (shoutout to Godskook goes here--turns out Soul Manifester is "wow, that sure was some words" to the DM), nothing will.

Are there any nice transformational prestige classes--or otherwise, PrCs that grant fun new abilities--out there that a Totemist 17 (going on 20) could aim to enter at level 21? Due to how epic levels work, BAB and saves can be disregarded as a selection factor. Yes, most of them require caster levels, but still.

Without a nicer option, I'll discuss Dragon Disciple adapted to meldshaping.

[Venger]

could you clarify on what you mean by "transformational" ? do you want something that changes your type? or just gives you new combat options?

[Psyren]

The problem with Incarnum and PrCs is that so few progress meldshaping. This can be bad news if your DM uses a high-level dispel effect to easily shut off one or more of your melds for 1d4 rounds.

Using your Dragon Disciple idea though - if your DM is willing to let you adapt a formerly caster/gish PrC to meldshaping, your pool of options grows a lot wider. Though I would recommend instead using the PF version of Dragon Disciple, coupled with a draconic soulmeld or two if you wanted to go that route.

[prufock]

Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster? Only two PrCs I know that progress ANY class abilities you want, albeit missing a level or two of progression. They aren't really "fancy" in the way you probably want them to be, though.

[qwertyu63]

Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster? Only two PrCs I know that progress ANY class abilities you want, albeit missing a level or two of progression. They aren't really "fancy" in the way you probably want them to be, though.

You just peaked my attention. Where can I find these classes?

[Kazyan]

could you clarify on what you mean by "transformational" ? do you want something that changes your type? or just gives you new combat options?

Either/or. Classes like Acolyte of the Skin that get listed under "transformational" in the PrC section of the sourcebook, or just new and shiny.


The problem with Incarnum and PrCs is that so few progress meldshaping. This can be bad news if your DM uses a high-level dispel effect to easily shut off one or more of your melds for 1d4 rounds.

Using your Dragon Disciple idea though - if your DM is willing to let you adapt a formerly caster/gish PrC to meldshaping, your pool of options grows a lot wider. Though I would recommend instead using the PF version of Dragon Disciple, coupled with a draconic soulmeld or two if you wanted to go that route.

We haven't run into a dispel effect the whole campaign, so advancing meldshaping is unimportant. It doesn't do anything but improve meldshaper level in epic, after all. If the DM wants to dispel things, he'll take one look at the Greater Dispel Magic caster level cap, think "I don't have time for workarounds", and just drop an AMF wherever.


You just peaked my attention. Where can I find these classes?

Weapons of Legacy and Complete Scroundrel, respectively.

[shadow_archmagi]

You should take that one that makes you a golem. Focus on the soul, and thus transcend the flesh.

[Venger]

Either/or. Classes like Acolyte of the Skin that get listed under "transformational" in the PrC section of the sourcebook, or just new and shiny.

We haven't run into a dispel effect the whole campaign, so advancing meldshaping is unimportant. It doesn't do anything but improve meldshaper level in epic, after all. If the DM wants to dispel things, he'll take one look at the Greater Dispel Magic caster level cap, think "I don't have time for workarounds", and just drop an AMF wherever.

if you're interested in acoltye of the skin, check out the iron chef this month (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923) on it. 10 different ways to cook with acolyte.

it's not the worst class in the world if you can enter with a unique progression (assassin, fatemaker, knight of the weave, etc) and gives the outsider type at 10


You should take that one that makes you a golem. Focus on the soul, and thus transcend the flesh.

I think you mean renegade mastermaker (magic of eberron) is a pretty cool class, and it gives you the living construct subtype (it does NOT change your type) as the capstone at 10, which gives you a variety of fun immunities/resistances, along with the ability to use warforged components. it allows you to take warforged feats and enter warforged only prcs.

pale master does gradually corrupt your body with its nasty-ass zombie arm and list of blanket immunities (including nonlethal damage and stunning! which is very hard to gain immunity to, and nonlethal damage immunity is one way to become immune to hp damage) (libris mortis) it doesn't exactly give you the undead type, but you have almost all the immunities and other fun things about being undead. plus if you tough it out to 10, you gain the ability to punch people in the face so hard they join your zombie army FO' FREE!

fleshwarper too is all about grafting random stuff onto your body from different monsters (lords of madness) it's hard to get into due to graft flesh requiring 10 ranks in heal (it's plainly intended to have been 4 ranks. talk to your DM about it. it's 9/10s casting, plus the sample character doesn't have that many ranks in heal) it gives you the aberration type at level 10.

master of many forms is a great prc (you need wild shape, alertness, and endurance. there are worse prereqs) and lets you turn into almost anything in the game. it's a toned down version of the absolutely insane Shifter prc from masters of the wild, but axes the casting prereq, so that's nice. lets you turn into anything except construct, outsider, magical beast, and undead. capstone gives you the shapechanger subtype (and makes you immune to all transmutation effects if you don't want to be affected by them. but you can use them on yourself or have them used on you if you like) (complete adventurer)

a less optimized version of momf, but requiring a lot more skill and forethought (making it fun if you're playing at a handicap or in a low-op game) is master transmogrifist. 6/10 casting, but gives you all kinds of cool shapechanging effects (alter self is permanent when you cast it, stuff that changes your shape is autoextended, you get a handful of "favored shapes" that you get bonuses when you turn into them) the capstone is "infinite variety" which lets you use your base form as a chassis and stack the abilities from any other monster on top of it (including an ex special quality/attack, ability score, natural armor, movement speed, etc) the example they give is red dragon base with octopus's 8 tentacles. my favorite is ironmaw (MM2 )chassis with dusk giant (heroes of horror)'s ex special quality "cannibalize" that lets you eat creatures to gain more HD and power. (complete arcane)

I'll post more later if I think of them. lmk what you think.

[Kazyan]

Thanks, Venger. One of those AotS entries is mine, actually, which was why the class came to mind as an example.

Of all the examples, Fleshwarper and MoMF look the most favorable and fluff-compatible. The former needs some skill points and a feat, and apparently a level in one of the core casting classes...I'll see if Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar) can substitute for Summon Familiar; if so, I can get in by level 22. MoMF is also tricky, but 5 levels of WS Ranger + Additional Favored Class (we use multiclassing penatlies; insert diatribe here) + Alertness or equivalent Ioun Stone = Entry at 26. And it opens up Warshaper, which is fuuuuun.

[Venger]

Thanks, Venger. One of those AotS entries is mine, actually, which was why the class came to mind as an example.

Of all the examples, Fleshwarper and MoMF look the most favorable and fluff-compatible. The former needs some skill points and a feat, and apparently a level in one of the core casting classes...I'll see if Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar) can substitute for Summon Familiar; if so, I can get in by level 22. MoMF is also tricky, but 5 levels of WS Ranger + Additional Favored Class (we use multiclassing penatlies; insert diatribe here) + Alertness or equivalent Ioun Stone = Entry at 26. And it opens up Warshaper, which is fuuuuun.

whoops! I certainly feel foolish. it's easy to lose track sometimes. my mistake. good luck with judgings! I hope your guy/gal is doing well.

could you tell me a little about your build as-is and perhaps about your backstory? what is your character like? what sort of theme are you going with for him/her? what is your party role? since your party seems scientifically calculated not to be optimized, do you funtion as the BSF, trap monkey, both, somewhere in between, or neither? is it just the 3 of you? cleric, theurge, and totemist? what does your party already have so I can figure out what it lacks or what I can recommend to you without stepping on your friends' toes.

are you a totemist 17? are you going to go totemist 20? there's no true "capstone" per se.

Are you really using multiclass xp penalties? Man, no one uses those. you have my sympathies. good thing they only count with base classes.

a build I recommended in another thread (since I have no idea how long your game will go and you implied it will last another 19 levels) is the following:

WS ranger 5/ warshaper 5/ nature's warrior 5/ abolisher 5

warshaper 5 gets you multimorph. combine that with the crazy as hell shapeshifting you have from momf (be sure and buy a wild shape amulet. treat your effective druid level for wild shaping as 4 higher) and you can turn your 1 hour/lvl wild shape into Nigh infinite wild shapes, especially since you get an extra daily use of wild shape for every level of momf you take. plus fast healing, reach, and morphic weapons aren't bad. I'm not going to pretend you don't already have a str and con boosting item at level 17.

nature's warrior advances wild shape (moar hit dice. moooooooooar) and gives you some other stuff (ask if fast healing stacks, if so, take it, then magic natural weapons, then grizzly claw. if it doesn't, take magic weapons, then grizzly claw, then constriction) and it advances your ranger casting by 2 and provides full BA

abolisher also advances wild shape (in daily uses anyway) and gives 3/4 BA, and gives you crystals that jut out of your body to sicken aberrations. it even advances your animal companion! plus advancing your FE bonus against aberrations (best if there's lots in your campaign of course)

[Kazyan]

Thanks, Venger. Answering everything:

The build is a Draconic Dwarf (LA bought off) Totemist 17, with Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Martial Study (Burning Blade)--that one's refluffed as channelling pheonix incarnum--Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings, Bonus Essentia, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and Double Chakra (Totem). Not necessarily in that order. Stats are 26/13/20/16/6/11 after enchancements; I don't have a Con booster yet because of needing a Throat bind shortly before acquiring this big pile of money which will be spent shortly. (Winter Mask vs. Red Dragon's minions. Protip: don't bother with three rounds of battlefield control when you're fighting kobolds.)

As a character, she's confused and semi-integrated into society, exiled from the puceblood tribes of her forest due to being born from two tribes. She's reserved, but has learned to stop caring about what city people (and most the party) thinks. Soon, she'll return to the tribes to tell them to rethink her place among them. Also, she doesn't seem to belong anywhere, on account of being a dragon-thing, incarnum being an "obscure tribal thing" in the DM's words, being an obscenely muscular woman, and just generally maxing out the weirdometer.

In party dynamics, she's the other BSF and the Spot/Listen/Survival monkey. We have the healzbot, theurge, an ubercharger*, a Silver Dragon Wyrmling Druid/Dracolyte, and me. The Wyrmling player is basically doing everything that's not damage dealing, because he's a very clever player.

Yeah, multiclassing penalties...we're very by-the-book.

As you've suggested, WS Ranger 5/Warshaper 5 is a good start and will probably cover the DM's ideas for epic. Then your Nature's Warrior, if we go above 30, which even the playground doesn't, but, hey. I don't think we'll go another 19 levels, heh, but covering the bases that far is a good idea.

Fighter 15/LST Barbarian 1 with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Improved Crit, and either not using or not picking his other feats.

[Venger]

you're quite welcome, that makes it a lot easier for me to give you advice. looks like you're a real beast when it comes to melee!

my knee-jerk tells me to suggest soul eater, but you've still got the humanoid type, Su things are RAW once/round, and it seems too high-op for your current lineup.

one thing that's not at all high-op and would suit you just perfectly is savage species's Scaled Horror. It's easy as hell to qualify for, all you need is the aquatic or reptilian subtype, which, as a draconic dwarf, I'm pretty darn sure you have. first you get improved grab (as a totemist that is brutal) at second, freedom of movement while underwater, then at 5, spring attack! spring attack is kind of terrible, but from the group you are describing, I think it's exactly the kind of option you might be able to enjoy (especially since you get to ignore dodge/mobility

just take 5 levels of it though, the only other features are free still/silent spell. as a character without spells, you don't really care much.

[kardar233]

You could move from the aforementioned Scaled Horror to Black Blood Cultist, giving you even more natural attacks and making you into a nasty grappler.

[Venger]

You could move from the aforementioned Scaled Horror to Black Blood Cultist, giving you even more natural attacks and making you into a nasty grappler.

good suggestion! I didn't mention it because we can see his character doesn't have IUS or Rage.

I'm a little hazy on how epic charas get feats. I personally don't really like epic play very much, the rules sort of start to break down. do you get a feat every level? every other level?

nabbing rage seems not especially difficult since you're no longer constrained to 20 levels. dip barb 1 (lion totem for pounce if your group rolls that way) and then either bite the bullet and take IUS or see what else you'd like to do about it. paying for it seems kind of dumb, and dipping monk would help you very little

I don't really see how you need black blood cultist's imp grapple if you've already got scaled horror's imp grab. could you explain what BBC offers?

black blood cultist handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual) for interested parties

[Kazyan]

Our group doesn't mind optimization. We encourage it; we read the guides. "Mail" is a running joke at our table, and we abuse the retraining rules so hard. We just don't...get it. Myself included. Double Chakra was taken at 15th, for instance.

Soul Eater is a bit of a no-go, character-wise. She's kind. Not necessarily good (Her alignment has been undetermined/TN the whole game), but nice. Soul eating would squick her. As for Scaled Horror, her type is Humanoid (Dragonblood, Incarnum), so a Savage Species Ritual will be required. I apologize that this is sounding difficult :smallfrown: . On the other hand, it's a great pick for those first two levels. Underwater combat has...actually come up several times.

Black Blood Cultist is kind of a nono for what was mentioned in Soul Eater, unless the DM would allow a refluff. In that case, Additional Favored Class is worth is to dip that level, though I'm hesistant to take it and just ignore the Lion thing. It would fit better if called the Sphinx totem... /brainstorm

Improved Unarmed Strike is actually not a problem--I have a Fanged Ring!

[Jack_Simth]

a less optimized version of momf, but requiring a lot more skill and forethought (making it fun if you're playing at a handicap or in a low-op game) is master transmogrifist. 6/10 casting, but gives you all kinds of cool shapechanging effects (alter self is permanent when you cast it, stuff that changes your shape is autoextended, you get a handful of "favored shapes" that you get bonuses when you turn into them) the capstone is "infinite variety" which lets you use your base form as a chassis and stack the abilities from any other monster on top of it (including an ex special quality/attack, ability score, natural armor, movement speed, etc) the example they give is red dragon base with octopus's 8 tentacles. my favorite is ironmaw (MM2 )chassis with dusk giant (heroes of horror)'s ex special quality "cannibalize" that lets you eat creatures to gain more HD and power. (complete arcane)

Outright Immunity to Everything:
Ocean Giant (MM II) with the Zodar's (from Fiend Folio) variation on magic immunity.

You'll need to score a Shapechange to get it (or have the Construct type, normally)... but YIKES.

[Venger]

Our group doesn't mind optimization. We encourage it; we read the guides. "Mail" is a running joke at our table, and we abuse the retraining rules so hard. We just don't...get it. Myself included. Double Chakra was taken at 15th, for instance.

Soul Eater is a bit of a no-go, character-wise. She's kind. Not necessarily good (Her alignment has been undetermined/TN the whole game), but nice. Soul eating would squick her. As for Scaled Horror, her type is Humanoid (Dragonblood, Incarnum), so a Savage Species Ritual will be required. I apologize that this is sounding difficult :smallfrown: . On the other hand, it's a great pick for those first two levels. Underwater combat has...actually come up several times.

Black Blood Cultist is kind of a nono for what was mentioned in Soul Eater, unless the DM would allow a refluff. In that case, Additional Favored Class is worth is to dip that level, though I'm hesistant to take it and just ignore the Lion thing. It would fit better if called the Sphinx totem... /brainstorm

Improved Unarmed Strike is actually not a problem--I have a Fanged Ring!

okay, I was gonna ask what your alignment is (rules some stuff out)

that's cool, soul eater is hard to justify for a character to just "pick up" you kinda have to build with it in mind. being dragonblood doesn't make you reptilian? that seems kind of stupid. oh well, I thought someone would finally be able to use scaled horror. it's a pretty good class, and gives you ranger spells too! but alas alack.

nah, it's not hard, no need to apologise, I just didn't have all the data about your chara.

good to know you at least want to steer away toward the extreme evil alignments like soul eater, it narrows things down somewhat.

what exactly do you want to accomplish with your levels?

I'm trying to go the natural attack route, but it appears that most of those routes are closed. that's more than fine.

have you considered kensai? since you're apparently grossly cash poor, it's a good way of saving on money. you can use totemist's natural options to give your body parts weird enhancements, which applies anywhere thanks to your fanged ring. it'd also be practice for next IC if we draw that.

ronin is also a surprisingly unterrible option. banzai charge can lead to stupid amounts of damage, and totemists make better sneaks than rogues, so you'll get to apply SA more often than not.


Outright Immunity to Everything:
Ocean Giant (MM II) with the Zodar's (from Fiend Folio) variation on magic immunity.

You'll need to score a Shapechange to get it (or have the Construct type, normally)... but YIKES.

I don't know how exactly you're supposed to cast shapechange as a master transmogrifist. you lose 4 caster levels, giving you (theoretically) 16th level casting, 1 shy of 9ths.

it could make playing as a warforged worth it. transformer time.

zodar also gets wish. turn into a zodar. use wish. shapechange into a different zodar. use his wish. win D&D.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't know how exactly you're supposed to cast shapechange as a master transmogrifist. you lose 4 caster levels, giving you (theoretically) 16th level casting, 1 shy of 9ths. See the OP - they're going into Epic play. There's a few other ways, too.

[Kazyan]

what exactly do you want to accomplish with your levels?

I want fun and interesting ways to get up in monsters' grills and make their HP go down really fast. With tons of attacks.

For instance, if Wildshape doesn't unshape soulmelds, then that's awesome.


have you considered kensai? since you're apparently grossly cash poor, it's a good way of saving on money. you can use totemist's natural options to give your body parts weird enhancements, which applies anywhere thanks to your fanged ring. it'd also be practice for next IC if we draw that.

ronin is also a surprisingly unterrible option. banzai charge can lead to stupid amounts of damage, and totemists make better sneaks than rogues, so you'll get to apply SA more often than not.

Cool. Kensai and Ronin go into the "hay DM, wat ur thots on refluffing" bin of consideration.

[Venger]

I want fun and interesting ways to get up in monsters' grills and make their HP go down really fast. With tons of attacks.

For instance, if Wildshape doesn't unshape soulmelds, then that's awesome.

wildshape doesn't unshape soulmelds. go to page 169 of MoI and see that the only chakras you can lose by getting into weird shapes are hands/arms by having no limbs whatsoever (if you love constrictors/nagas after momf levels) but other than that, you keep all your stuffs. even if you do WS into a boa or something, your soulmelds aren't unshaped, just suppressed (like when you walk into/out of an AMF) until you turn into something with limbs again.


Cool. Kensai and Ronin go into the "hay DM, wat ur thots on refluffing" bin of consideration.
oh, pfft. there's nothing setting-specific in either of those at all. ronin is a dishonored "honorable warrior" archetype. from what you told me, it seems as though your character fits into that outcast mentality, so I don't think it'd be hard to wrangle. same with kensai.

[Darth Stabber]

Ronin is cool for a few levels. Banzai charge is a reasonable shocktrooper+PA lite. Sneak attack is great fun for any meleer if you have another meleer to team up with. Druid is also a worthy consideration.

For the real fun take 1 lvl of barbarian (preferably spirit lion totem), then get into the uberfun totem rager, and follow it up with bear warrior (or you skip totem rager entirely). Once you have bear warrior (never higher than 5lvls) you qualify for warshaper, and from there you can branch out. And since you only have 1 lvl of of another base class, you don't suffer xp penalty. And extra rage gives you two more transforms per instance of the feat. I mean you could go with a route that gives you more alternate forms, but why bother when you can already get brown bear? They offer you complexity, I offer your brutal simplicity.

I leave you with a question, bear warrior: great prc, or greatest prc?

It's not a question of lightside or darkside, this is the redside of the force!

[Kazyan]

Ronin is cool for a few levels. Banzai charge is a reasonable shocktrooper+PA lite. Sneak attack is great fun for any meleer if you have another meleer to team up with. Druid is also a worthy consideration.

For the real fun take 1 lvl of barbarian (preferably spirit lion totem), then get into the uberfun totem rager, and follow it up with bear warrior (or you skip totem rager entirely). Once you have bear warrior (never higher than 5lvls) you qualify for warshaper, and from there you can branch out. And since you only have 1 lvl of of another base class, you don't suffer xp penalty. And extra rage gives you two more transforms per instance of the feat. I mean you could go with a route that gives you more alternate forms, but why bother when you can already get brown bear? They offer you complexity, I offer your brutal simplicity.

I leave you with a question, bear warrior: great prc, or greatest prc?

It's not a question of lightside or darkside, this is the redside of the force!

Sweeeeeet. Do the multiclassing penalties seriously not apply for a 1-level dip?

Anyway, I think I'm all set: Use BEAR to get into some of the prior morpher suggestions, depending on how far epic this goes. Thanks, guys, especially Venger. :smallcool:

[Venger]

Sweeeeeet. Do the multiclassing penalties seriously not apply for a 1-level dip?

Anyway, I think I'm all set: Use BEAR to get into some of the prior morpher suggestions, depending on how far epic this goes. Thanks, guys, especially Venger. :smallcool:

multiclass xp penalties, along with anything about xp and leveling, are absent from the srd, not being OGL. however, after checking the relevant section of the PHB, I have been unfortunately unable to find any text that specifically states that the 1st level of a non-favored class doesn't count for multiclass xp penalties.

I don't think it's an unreasonably house rule (like ignoring multiclass xp penalties in the first place, which almost everyone does) but I haven't been able to find anything to the contrary in the RAW. the relevant section is in the PHB on page 60 if anyone has an insight I'm missing.

You're quite welcome. Let us know how it turns out!