Optimizing Pathfinder Sorcerers and Wizards [PF]

[13ones]

I've got a rather big pathfinder game coming next year and I want to be ready. Spell casting is honestly my strongest suit with the majority of my experience being in sorcerers. So I'd like to turn to more professional advice. How do I build the best damned spell casters I can? What should their attribute layouts look like? Skill distribution? Hit points? AC? Any items you would suggest? Feats?

A little information may be needed. It will be a 25 point buy system. We have all the core, 1st party books to play with. So we have Core, Advance players, Ultimate magic and combat, as well as the advance race guide (race creation is banned). Also we will be starting at fourth level and hit 20th level by the end of the year. Suggestions for the entire range would be nice!

And while I am asking for help with optimizing it is more their attributes, skills and HP I'm worried about. Things like blood lines, spells and the like aren't really a concern to me. I know what is good and what isn't there.

[Eldariel]

Elf Wizard is fairly solid. FC bonuses are kinda nice on low levels (and even higher up, nobody's complaining about extra skill points) and getting easy 20 Int and a secondary bonus to Dex and Elf Magic all adds up to a very solid whole.

Universalist gets an insane ability on level 8 but up until then, specialists have it better. Conjurer with the Shifting ACF is what I prefer, though there are certainly other good options too (Diviner, for instance, gets some nice stuff).


Obviously, the big part is your spell selection so that's what it all comes down to really. Early on preparing Daze is probably a good idea (I like leaving Enchantment not banned in low level games just for the utility of Charm Person, Daze & Sleep) & you might want to consider the easy combat spells like Grease/Sleep/Color Spray (their heyday begins to wane on l4 already, but Grease is always good and Color Spray still has some kick left in it), Pyrotechnics/Web/Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud/Slow/Haste, etc.

Wizards have it easy, trading 'em once per day. A bit more permanent on a Sorc. Really, as long as you don't spend resources trying to do obscene damage, you should be fine.

[13ones]

So what about attribute and skill distribution?

[Psyren]

So what about attribute and skill distribution?

Wizards: Int>Dex>Con in that order, rest don't matter as much.
Sorc: Cha>Dex>Con in that order, rest don't matter as much.

For skills: In either case, you'll need Spellcraft and Fly. Arcana is probably the knowledge you'll be expected to cover so get that too, and work with your party to cover the rest.

Now, since Wizards have Int to burn and all Knowledges, you'll probably need to grab a couple more here to help the party achieve total coverage; knowing what an unfamiliar monster's abilities are, or the strange crest on the nobleman's carriage can save your party a world of hurt.

Sorcerers meanwhile usually have less skillpoints to burn, but luck out by getting the fantastic UMD skill. Combined with their Cha-focus, and you'll have much less restrictive loot requirements, in that you can use consumables and gear designed for a variety of other classes. Secondly, you'll want to make sure your group has a face; Bluff and Intimidate can get you out of some hairy situations, and wjhile Diplomacy isn't in-class for you you can get by with a few points your likely high Cha.

[Arbane]

Wizards: Int>Dex>Con in that order, rest don't matter as much.
Sorc: Cha>Dex>Con in that order, rest don't matter as much.

I'd argue you need Con more than Dex. Hit points are your friends. As a arcane caster, your AC is going to be terrible no matter WHAT you do, and ranged-touch attacks pretty much have a to-hit of "yes" after the first few levels unless you're a complete klutz.

[Corlindale]

EDIT: Reading comprehension fail - just gave a bunch of suggestion on stuff you didn't need to know about.

For attributes I'd prioritize Casting stat>Con>Dex, though for an elf wizard getting Dex higher than Con usually makes sense (I wouldn't go lower than 12 Con, though).

Strength is the most dumpable stat for most primary casters, though Cha can be dumped for a wizard too, if you're comfortable with suffering on social skills.

With 25 point buy you might be able to start with 20 in your casting stat, which can be helpful early on since it gets you an extra 1st level spells and some excellent save DCs throughout the game.

Feat choices depend on what kind of caster you expect to me. If you think the game will go to 20th level you might want to build for Spell Perfection, though, since that is such an awesome feat for most casters. Persistent Spell is also an excellent metamagic feat for those relying on offensive spells a lot.

Skills are hard to give advice about - I would talk to the other players and hear what they're going for, so that you can cover the skills that they don't.
Perception is always a good choice, though, even if you don't have it as a class skill. The only one that can dump it semi-safely is a Diviner, since he gets to act in the surprise round regardless of whether he notices an ambush or not - and for out-of-combat scenarios its usually safe enough to rely on your allies for spotting stuff.

[Alefiend]

I'd argue you need Con more than Dex. Hit points are your friends. As a arcane caster, your AC is going to be terrible no matter WHAT you do, and ranged-touch attacks pretty much have a to-hit of "yes" after the first few levels unless you're a complete klutz.

I think dex is being recommended for the initiative bonus. Hit points are your friends, yes; but going first as a spellcaster is win.

[Eldariel]

I'd argue you need Con more than Dex. Hit points are your friends. As a arcane caster, your AC is going to be terrible no matter WHAT you do, and ranged-touch attacks pretty much have a to-hit of "yes" after the first few levels unless you're a complete klutz.

No, you can certainly get a decent AC on an arcane caster if you put your mind to it. Low levels, simple Mage Armor + 16-18 Dex is gonna get you AC comparable to any warrior and later on you might get the chance to use Shield every now and then too, getting low 20s AC.

Then Protection from Alignment has a decent duration and it's +2 more Deflection so we can really get mid 20s AC with just level 1 spells and Dex. Later on we have Polymorph-effects, magic items, etc. that could further boost our AC should we care to.


Of course, it's usually not very high on the priority list for a mage and indeed, Initiative, Ref-saves and Acrobatics are the primary reasons to run high Dex on a mage but the AC doesn't hurt either, especially on low levels.

[Novawurmson]

I would also recommend you to an optimization guide such as those (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test) listed (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1XRNMhW8ZVJKmgQGcDdF1W-E-Ualj0H9wPVxK_BgSY2s) in the optimization compendium in my signature.

[Psyren]

I'd argue you need Con more than Dex. Hit points are your friends. As a arcane caster, your AC is going to be terrible no matter WHAT you do, and ranged-touch attacks pretty much have a to-hit of "yes" after the first few levels unless you're a complete klutz.

As others have said, the Dex is for Initiative, not AC (though that's certainly a good reason for it, as are ranged touch attacks.) Hitpoints are nice and all, but the best way to survive an attack is to not let it go off to begin with.

[Eldariel]

As others have said, the Dex is for Initiative, not AC (though that's certainly a good reason for it, as are ranged touch attacks.) Hitpoints are nice and all, but the best way to survive an attack is to not let it go off to begin with.

Of course, you generally don't need to choose between the two. Point buys are generally nice enough to grant you sufficient points for a decent score in both. Con for particularly Fort-saves (which enemy spellcasters will probably primarily target you with), HP (against AOE, environmental damage, simple buffer), etc. helps a lot in cases where things go south.

So far my PF Society Wizard has survived a building on fire at 1 HP (if the non-lethal damage knocked him out he would've burned to death summarily but nat. 20 on the Fort-save vs. smoke inhalation loss of turn followed by move + Shift through a half-open window and falling to the ground unconscious saved him) & fallen to a pit trap ('cause it was friggin' large AOE and the Rogue failed to find it) which knocked him to -lots but luckily with a Barbarian who was able to forcefeed him one of his Potions. Both times, with even 1 less point in Con or 1 less Favored Class HP bonus it would've been death.