How to Unoptimize a Warblade?

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground.

I came to the conclusion that my Warblade Build that I wanted to achieve in the current group might be too strong.

I seek advice acording to the fact that my DM most of the time thinks I'm overpowered.

My Warblade so far:
CG Untherian Male Human Warblade 2/Fighter 1
Hit Points: 38
Attributes: Str 18 (currently 15 because of poison), Dex 14, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 11
Feats:
H: Power Attack
1: Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain)
3: Combat Expertise
F: Improved Trip
Maneuver:
Sudden Leap, Steel Wind, Moment of Perfect Clarity (the Concentration instead of will save) and Saphire Nightmare Blade (Concentration vs AC, +1d6 dmg or -4 to attack).
Stance:
Punishing Stance (-2 AC, +1d6 DMG).

Gear:
Healing Belt, MW Composite(4) Longbow, MW Greatsword, MW Spiked Chain, MW Breastplate + Crystal of Endurance (the one that makes your armor comfy), Rusty Steel Shield and Rusty Scimitar.

Feats I planned taking next: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still. Knockdown is not on this list because it seems to riddiculus even for me.

Now at the beginning I wasn't so sure about me being powerful because smacking things with a twohanded weapon and 18 strength should kill kobolds in one hit at level one. But now on level 3 the seed of doubt began to spread. We were attacked by some spiders (giant ones) and nearly all lost strength(I lost 8, our Druid 10 and the Favoured soul 4). But even then the only impact was that I hit worse than before (the first time I activated Power Attack).

The group doesn't (really) optimize as I have mentioned before and consists of a(n older) Human Favoured Soul 3, a Human Druid going for Storm Lord and a Warlock 2/Bard 1 (Starelf) [going to be Eldritch Theurge] + me.

The Favoured Soul took Power Attack (just now) and Improved Initiative + one mystery feat (mw hammer and breastplate+swimming armor crystal), The Druid took the feat req's for Storm Lord and the Bard took PBS and Precise Shot.

Now again I seek advice from you how I can lower my "powerlevel" without requiring sudden changes (like multiclass with rogue or such) or a way to ensure that they become more powerfull.

On another note I thought about Rogue or Bard instead of Fighter but for one I lack the charisma to pull it of and the other would be a too harsh change of character (sneak attack, being able to locate traps and jadda jadda would be counter productive). Ranger or Barbarian would've been possible but Ranger would've been similar to rogue, suddenly tracking and stuff and barbarian too powerful because of rage.

Since this is the First time we played with ToB:Bot9S I assume it could be a shock since for the rest of the group thinks fighters are fine, as are monks (in another group of the DM a monk outperforms the rest of the group).

I hope you can help me with this.

[Andreaz]

I advise against wrecking your own build. Just don't use your full power.

[mucco]

Rule #1 for looking less powerful is playing defensive. Have most of your maneuvers be those immediate actions that let you retry saves or roll concentration instead, counter attack rolls and the like. Pick combat expertise and use it. Use a reach weapon that does less damage but gives you other benefits.

Rule #2 is, use core. Nobody will say you're overpowered if you use core feats. Get combat reflexes, blind fight, that sort of stuff. Those two are good feats! Go trip-happy. Fight on a horse. Do everything core allows you to, that way you are doing the same things a fighter can do.

Rule #3 is, be a party guy. Use lots of White Raven to have your allies do stuff. White Raven Tactics is something no player will complain about - maybe the DM, but I suggest pre-nerfing it when you ask if you can take it.

Good luck - ToB caters to the optimizers, it's a bad book for those whose playstyle involves more than two level of monk.

[shadow_archmagi]

Good luck - ToB caters to the optimizers, it's a bad book for those whose playstyle involves more than two level of monk.

ToB is also good for people that're bad at optimizing, since short of deliberate sabotage your build is always going to have some decent options.

[mucco]

Dunno, that doesn't seem the case. Most of the times, two things happen: either the player is in a group similar to him, which will make him overpowered, or he is in a group of optimizers, who will make the build for him/give him good advice. And they would do it with any class, not just ToB.

So, I'm not sure it's good for those people. Might do no harm, maybe.

[shadow_archmagi]

Dunno, that doesn't seem the case. Most of the times, two things happen: either the player is in a group similar to him, which will make him overpowered, or he is in a group of optimizers, who will make the build for him/give him good advice. And they would do it with any class, not just ToB.

So, I'm not sure it's good for those people. Might do no harm, maybe.

My group got tired of making character sheets for the one guy that's been playing for six years and doesn't know what you add to hit.

[Cespenar]

Go for an unarmed Stone Dragon focused Warblade? Apart from reducing your damage output, it is kinda hilarious to break apart walls and doors with headbutts or body slams.

[Essence_of_War]

So the problem isn't that Warblades are too powerful for your group, but that tripping+AoO is too powerful?

Tripping is a fine strategy, and it's very good against non-reach, humanoid, melee combatants, but it looks pretty silly against ranged strikers, all manner of non-humanoids, or enemies who also have reach weapons who don't trigger AoOs.

If that's the case here's an idea, I'll except from The Warblade Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968):

Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization - These four are the classic fighter feats, and thanks to Weapon Aptitude you have nearly exclusive access to them. Unfortunately, they're generally derided as utterly, totally, completely awful, as small, static bonuses don't usually compare with the benefits other feats provide.
But, in Runestar's words:
"These small bonuses are all the more meaningful in the hands of a martial adept.

One difference they have over a fighter is that if you build them around their standard action strikes, combat will typically involve 1 attack each round. Either you hit for a ton of damage, or you miss and don't deal anything. Compared to a fighter who can make 4-6 attacks each round. Assuming you hit with at least 1 attack, you should be doing at least a bit of damage each round.

This makes hitting (and by extension, all those attack bonuses) all the more crucial. Granted, the attack bonus from weapon spec/mastery isn't so attractive when you are limited to 1 attack/round (compared to a fighter's 4-6).

At least for me, I am willing to invest at least 3 feats to acquire melee weapon mastery, and maybe eventually work my way up to weapon supremacy."

Long story short: these feats are OK. Nothing more, maybe a little less. But they're functional, provide solid bonuses, always help, and are simple to keep track of. If you're into optimization, avoid them at all costs, but a warblade who focuses on these two feat trees is a perfectly playable one.

Also, if you take those feats, check out Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2), Slashing Flurry (PHB2), and Weapon Supremacy (PHB2, probably only accesible w/ Heroics at 20th level...) which use them as pre-reqs and provide additional benefits.

MWM - grants additional passive attack/damage bonuses
Slashing Flurry - Grants extra attack when you take std. action strikes!
Weapon Sup - lets you take 10 on attack rolls. Wonderful w/ std. action strikes.

Basically, if your group can't deal with tripping, build around std. action strikes, and take lots of passive bonuses to the those std. action strikes. It's not optimal, but it can still be very fun with carefully chosen maneuvers.

Edit: OP, if you don't mind, let me know if I've interpreted your optimization problem (AoO+tripping+reach is too good) correctly.

[Novawurmson]

I would say change your playstyle, not your build: That way, in a pinch, you can still bring the pain and save the day.

mucco has the right idea: Using Combat Expertise instead of Power Attack is a good place to start, as-is sticking with (good) core feats. Make trip attempts to set up the other melee to hit. Maybe pick up Improved Disarm if your group is fighting a lot of humanoids with weapons.

Above all, I recommend helping your team optimize a little - don't go overboard, but few Bards are going to say "no" to, say, Song of the Heart if they're trying to be the buff-guy.

[Telonius]

I suspect that it's Punishing Stance plus Sapphire Nightmare Blade that's getting the issues. I'm assuming you've maxed out your Concentration check. At level 3, that's going to be 6 ranks plus your constitution, which is +2, giving you a bonus of 8. Attack - unless I'm missing a magic weapon - for you would be 3 (BAB) +4 (usual Str) +1 (MW) = 8.

This basically means that - if you use your maneuver - you can afford to put as much power attack as the target has Dex bonus, without being any less likely to actually hit; and at the same time doing an extra +1d6 damage. If you're fighting something that has a Dex modifier of +2, you can take +2 Power Attack, use the maneuver to get a concentration check at +8. If it succeeds, its AC would be at -2, evening out your Power Attack. Your damage with a Greatsword would be 2d6 (normal) + 6 (str*1.5 for 2-handed) + 4 (power attack) + 1d6 (stance) + 1d6 (sapphire nightmare blade) = 4d6+10. Average of 24 damage.

Compare that to a typical Fighter (which the DM is probably more used to seeing) doing a charge - he'd only get 2d6+10 (average 17). That's only a difference of 7 damage, but at low levels, 7 is a lot. (Just ask a Wizard).

You can do this routine once every two rounds (if you recharge your maneuvers), while a standard fighter usually has more problems lining up a charge. And if the Fighter can line up the charge, so can the Warblade, with all his extra options on top of what the Fighter gets.

This sort of thing is why some DMs who aren't used to melee getting nice things, immediately smell cheese. It's not that the Warblade is overpowered compared to Wizards. It's that it's overpowered (and particularly obviously overpowered at low levels) compared to the existing base classes. Thing is, the CRs of the Monster Manual monsters are (at least theoretically) balanced to the base classes. If the DM doesn't know that going in, and doesn't adjust the hit point totals or defenses of the regular Monster Manual monsters he's setting after you, it's going to make him feel like you're blowing through his encounters. Which you are, because you're dealing about 30% more damage per round than the game "expects" you to.

So, how to tone it down a bit. First, I'd talk to the DM separately and let him know that you understand the class is actually more powerful than Fighter, and that you want to make sure you're not overwhelming the encounters. Offer to switch out your stance to either Surefoot Stance or Bolstering Voice. However, do make it clear that the class really is pretty powerful out of the box, and if he's really not comfortable with this power level, it's not going to get much better as you level up. If you have to, offer to use the Swordsage's maneuver recovery mechanic. If that's not enough to sway him, then (unfortunately) you're probably better off choosing a different melee class.

[sonofzeal]

Good luck - ToB caters to the optimizers, it's a bad book for those whose playstyle involves more than two level of monk.
ToB dips cater to optimizers. But for a full ToB build, the optimization floor and ceiling are pretty close together, far more so than for most other classes.

Let's take a Wizard and a Fighter, for example. A badly-made Wizard can actually under-perform a badly-made Fighter, as the latter is at least guaranteed to have hitpoints, proficiencies, and BAB no matter how badly they flub feat choices, while a Wizard with worthless spells is basically a commoner. The "floor" for Wizard is lower than for Fighter. But the "ceiling" is much, much higher - an optimized Wizard is completely untouchable to anything an optimized Fighter can even hope to do.

Wizard has one of the lowest optimization floors in the game, but also one of the highest ceilings. Cleric's ceiling is slightly lower, but the floor is vastly higher since the chassis is better and they can re-pick spells far more freely.

Fighter and Warblade actually end up on a similar relationship. A poorly-made Fighter might be better than a poorly-made Wizard, but only barely; a poorly-made Warblade is still a Warblade and can likely walk all over that Fighter. But someone mining feats from dozens of splatbooks with an eye for synergy and power can do some pretty impressive things with Fighter, whereas an expertly-built Warblade... is still just a Warblade. Their Nth level maneuvers are what they are regardless of your optimization level, and pro choices won't really be all that much of an advantage over naive choices of the same level. I've heard it claimed that an expertly-built Fighter can rival or perhaps even surpass an expertly-built Warblade, and I'll believe it.

In this way, Warblade is actually one of the least optimization-friendly classes in the game, because it doesn't scale well with optimization compared to its peers. Most classes occupy a fairly broad range of power levels depending how you build them, but the bands for Warblade and Swordsage are relatively narrow. Crusader... well there's 1d2 Crusader and Idiot Crusader, but if your DM nixes those then they're in the same boat. Newbies will do well with those classes, and pros won't break the game with them.

[mucco]

Newbies will do well with those classes, and pros won't break the game with them.

So, in the end, you kind of prove my point. Newbies will do too well with those classes, while pros are guaranteed to not ruin games with them. It is truly a book for optimizers! In the sense that it allows them to minmax everything they can and it's still okay.

[Krazzman]

Wow,

thanks so far for that many responses.

First of all I should probably mention my tactic and some other stuff about our Level.

Yesterday evening we reached level 3 and leveled middungeon since we could fortify a defense position to rest for ~2 days (the poison damage knocked our druid to 2 str...).

The tripping was online before the second rest but I used it once so far.

My Skills are mostly stuck on 5 since Fighter doesn't have concentration as class skill. I've got 1 Rank in ride and 6 in Swim, Jump, Climb and another (that I miss at the moment).
Maneuvers readied are: Sudden Leap, Steel Wind and Moment of Clarity.
I rarely use the stance since -2 AC are still deadly atm.
While I only had 12 Str after the first rest I used Full PA Steel Wind and Full CE attacks against a group of skelletons. Switching between 20 and 17 AC.
So far my tactics were smacking things with the Chain and SHOULD I lose it while tripping switching to Greatsword.

My damage was till now: 2d4+6.

[Essence_of_War]

Hmmm...I'm a bit surprised that THAT was too powerful for your group.

Could you give us some examples of what the other members of the party are doing (or not doing?) during combat situations?

[VanBuren]

So, in the end, you kind of prove my point. Newbies will do too well with those classes, while pros are guaranteed to not ruin games with them. It is truly a book for optimizers! In the sense that it allows them to minmax everything they can and it's still okay.

Or it's not for them, in the sense that they don't get a terribly large amount of benefit for doing so.

[Krazzman]

Hmmm...I'm a bit surprised that THAT was too powerful for your group.

Could you give us some examples of what the other members of the party are doing (or not doing?) during combat situations?

Ah ok let me summarize the encounters we had so far:

Level 1 (Kobolds)
I dash in using steel wind, knocking 2 almost every time out.
Favoured Soul: smacks with his hammer for 1d8+2 (one-handed)
Druid: either cast flame (the throw a flame or touch attack flame) or attacks with one handed spear for 1d8+?.
Warlock: eldritch blast for 1d6+1 dmg

Level 2 (4 Orcs)
I used my from the kobolds looted mw comp bow against 2 of them for 1d8+4 each (one-shotting them).
Warlock/Bard EB for 1d6+1 kills another.
Favoured Soul kills the other with 1d8+2.

Still Level 2 (3 Giant Spiders)
Favoured Soul gets entagled
I get entangled
Bard-lock starts EB-ing
druid gets struck with poison drops to 6 STR
Favoured soul frees himself, smacks at spider
I free myself, smack 2 spiders with steel wind
everyone smacks spiders till they are dead.
Favoured soul drops to 12 Str with second poison effect, I drop to 10 Str, Druid drops to 2 Str. We rest, we level.
While fighting healing belt running around and switching belt shenanigans.

Level 3 (9 Skelletons)
Favoured Soul Smacks skelletons.
I with 12 Str full PA Steel wind/full combat expertise standard attack (to regain maneuvers)[with the spiked chain]
Bard-lock EB's them
Druid uses sling with glorious 4 str.

Still level 3 (Mimic)
Attack attack attack attack grapple waaaah.

Still Level 3 (Traproom)
This rooms main feature were a giant fire spilling pillar and 3 activated living armors that are fixated to kill everyone in there. each chamber they were in contained a switch. upon using all 3 switched a 4th chamber with a switch was opened. This switch turned the thing off.

Currently with 15 str due to a not sooo glorious lesser restoration from our druid (rolled a 1 for me and a 4 for herself). trip one armor, favoured soul smacks one, druid activates switch 1. npc activates switch 3, bard activates switch 2 after we somehow dissipated all armors, I run to 4th switch.
Our donkey dies, druid nearly dies at -12, favoured soul was at -8. Both get healing belted.

I hope this draws it a bit clearer how they play. The favoured Soul doesn't seem to have any healing spells except the 0th-level and is Aquafocused.
Druid is going for Stormlord (PrC) and thus has Great Fortitude and so on.
Bardlock aims for Eldritch Theurge without early entry tricks.

[mucco]

One thing I seem to notice is that your spellcasters aren't using their spells. I see a druid with 2nd level spells using a sling with a -3 modifier to damage. Either he blew all his spells earlier, or he is ignoring his most important class feature.

Spellcasters can have a lot of problems early on if they face several encounters in a row. Your warblade would really shine there, of course.

What spells is the favored soul using? Like, Divine Favor for a +1 to attack rolls at the cost of losing a round? What about the druid?

The bardlock seems like a sad, sad build.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd say, start coaching the Druid's player out of the game...

Start talking to him about using his animal companion, using entangle and similar spells, using summoning spells, and basically anything that involves him not making attack rolls himself...

[Novawurmson]

...I'd say the problem is more that the rest of the party is severely under-optimized. Help them build and play their characters more effectively.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

...I'd say the problem is more that the rest of the party is severely under-optimized. Help them build and play their characters more effectively.

I wouldn't even say that. I would rather say that the rest of the party are not aware of the potential of the classes they are playing.

The Druid, for example, could be EASILY soloing every encounter with just the resources listed and 28 point buy build. Heck, his pet wolf alone could solo most of that. Toss in an occasional Entangle or Produce Flame for gravy. If he absolutely needs to wade into melee, he's got (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/produceFlame.htm) several (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm) for weapons which are far superior to what he is using.

This is simply using the resources available to him, with ZERO character optimization involved at all, just using what he already has.

Heck, just using Summon Nature's Ally plus the Bard's Inspire Courage should be enough to finish off most fights without the party needing to be involved at all.

[mucco]

Actually, I disagree with what was said above. If I were you, I wouldn't try to "coach" or "teach" your friends. I know from experience that people treated this way tend to either not listen, or get pushed out of their gaming comfort zone.

Instead, I think you should let them know something every now and then, but not much. Just a spell or two every now and then. People sometimes don't *want* to optimize and are in just for the laughs of using a sling with 4 Strength.

[sonofzeal]

So, in the end, you kind of prove my point. Newbies will do too well with those classes, while pros are guaranteed to not ruin games with them. It is truly a book for optimizers! In the sense that it allows them to minmax everything they can and it's still okay.
That's not "optimizer-friendly" though, that's just "player-friendly" in general. :smallwink:

[ThiagoMartell]

...I'd say the problem is more that the rest of the party is severely under-optimized. Help them build and play their characters more effectively.

Because not optimizing is doing it wrong, of course.

[Dresler]

First post on the forums :smallbiggrin:

I'm pretty new to D&D in the table top sense and had this conversation with our DM and another guy about my swordsage. Early on I felt like I was much more (damage wise) powerful than others in my group. They said it will begin to equal out more later on and they were right.

Our DM however is very good at adjusting encounters for our characters and adding counters for what we can do so the matches are balanced. Maybe have the DM change some encounters so that they counter you, possibly being a better tripper or staying out of your reach. I've had some encounters where my swordsage/monk tripper felt completely useless.

If your DM can't do that (and the others can't get up to your level) I'd suggest what another suggested and holding what you could do back a bit.

One of the guys in our party does exactly that, he's some sort of shadow mage/cleric that has insane summons etc. He has a gentleman's agreement with our DM on using certain things at times because he could do WAY more than the rest of us could.

Early on I think the ToB classes do pretty well, later on though other things can greatly surpass them. I wouldn't be too worried at early levels.

[Sucrose]

Because not optimizing is doing it wrong, of course.

Point out, at any point in the encounters described, a cheesy, overly-powerful, or abusive tactic on the part of the Warblade. He could have accomplished the same thing as efficiently as a Fighter with Cleave.

His character has done nothing to deserve his DM's label of being overpowered. Ergo, the solution is not to demand that he lower his reasonable character to the level of the other PCs, if there is a balance problem, but to point out what the other PCs could do to be at least as effective as him occasionally. Given that a couple of them have very nearly died a time or two, the advice probably would not go amiss.

[ThiagoMartell]

Point out, at any point in the encounters described, a cheesy, overly-powerful, or abusive tactic on the part of the Warblade. He could have accomplished the same thing as efficiently as a Fighter with Cleave.
So what?


His character has done nothing to deserve his DM's label of being overpowered. Ergo, the solution is not to demand that he lower his reasonable character to the level of the other PCs, if there is a balance problem, but to point out what the other PCs could do to be at least as effective as him occasionally. Given that a couple of them have very nearly died a time or two, the advice probably would not go amiss.
Sorry, this is just wrong. The OP has even stated he wants to tonw down his character. He realized he is stepping into other people's toes. The fact the other guys are not optmizing as much as they could is irrelevant - the point is this character is more powerful than the others and that is disturbing play.
Instead of changing this character, you suggest instead that everyone else changes their characters? This does not make sense. People in his group have no interest in optimizing and they like their characters as they are, for all we know.
You can't put your fun above anyone else's, IMHO. The OP is right about toning down his character. This whole hate on people who don't optimize simply makes optimizers look bad.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While I agree with Thiago's statement that you can't put your fun above everyone else's, you also don't want to put your fun behind everyone else's either.

The most appropriate course IMO is to tone his character down just a little, while at the same time giving small pointers to the other players, e.g. "hey druid player, did you know that if you use (buff/summon X) on your first turn it'll make surviving encounters a bit easier?" or "Yo bard, did you notice that you have the ability to climb walls (an assumption on my part)? I bet you could use that whenever you want to stay out of enemy reach to blast with impunity."

This isn't even full on optimization*, it's just tactical advice from one friend to another.

*Under a very tight definition of optimization. In the more general sense it is optimization, but so is putting your highest rolled stat in str if you're a melee character, or deciding not to put your lowest stat in con.

[Sucrose]

So what?
So, there are limits to the extent of unoptimization that a player can be expected to account for. Given that the players are playing PC classes, this would indicate that they are expected to be at least broadly able to handle challenges around their ECL, so considering something that is equivalent to an obvious Core Fighter build to be overpowered is unreasonable.


Sorry, this is just wrong. The OP has even stated he wants to tonw down his character. He realized he is stepping into other people's toes. The fact the other guys are not optmizing as much as they could is irrelevant - the point is this character is more powerful than the others and that is disturbing play.
Instead of changing this character, you suggest instead that everyone else changes their characters? This does not make sense. People in his group have no interest in optimizing and they like their characters as they are, for all we know.

I said nothing about changing their characters, just suggesting that they get some advice about tactics. That would probably be sufficient for the group's contribution to be a bit more even. For someone who insists frequently that he's misunderstood, you are certainly eager to misinterpret others.

That said, for all we know, they are unsatisfied with their characters' efficacy, and would appreciate advice. No reason to assume that your hypothesis is the accurate one.


You can't put your fun above anyone else's, IMHO. The OP is right about toning down his character. This whole hate on people who don't optimize simply makes optimizers look bad.

I have no hate for those who don't optimize, only for those who jump down the throats of people who make a suggestion that perhaps the other PCs would appreciate some pointers.

[juicycaboose]

Point out, at any point in the encounters described, a cheesy, overly-powerful, or abusive tactic on the part of the Warblade. He could have accomplished the same thing as efficiently as a Fighter with Cleave.

Thiago isn't implying that the warblade is overly-optimized or anything of the sort, he's just saying that just because the other characters are under-optimized doesn't mean they need "fixing".



I said nothing about changing their characters, just suggesting that they get some advice about tactics. That would probably be sufficient for the group's contribution to be a bit more even. For someone who insists frequently that he's misunderstood, you are certainly eager to misinterpret others.


Of course you didn't, but you hadn't even posted before TM first did? He was responding to another person's post.

[Krazzman]

Again wow,

didn't thought that I would that many responses.

I should've made notes while reading...

First to the Bardlock.
Yes this Build isn't that great for 2 reasons. She is an Star Elf instead of a Human and instead of taking Versatile Spell Caster and Sanctum Spell she took PBS and Precise Shot. Her Dexterity is 15 and her Charisma is 19.
The mentioned early entry tricks to get into Sublime Chord after ET level 1 are disregarded. She'll probably take 3 levels Warlock and rest Bard.
It might not be as powerful as the Build in Thinblades compendium (Oz the singing Warlock) but she liked the flavour of it.

The Favoured Soul
In those 3 Levels my character never really saw him cast a spell. OOC I know he casted 0-level spells (the 1hp healing) and last session he casted a spell that buffed us right before the traproom.

The Druid
She is the fiance of the DM but it is really cool to play with her. I was happy to hear that she wanted to play a druid as i thought nothing can go wrong with a druid but jeah not so good animal companion and bad sense for spells so far, I can maybe point some things out but I would more like to not do this.
We play with a few homebrewed rules. Slings only use positive strength. you die only at -con-mod and so on.
At that encounter she had her 2nd level spells not avaible since it wasn't her time to ask for spells. Her Pet (yes Pet as in never did something) is a falcon.
She uses Produce Flame and lesser vigor with her spells.

To myself
I'm not a good optimizer,or else I wouldn't ask that often in the playground for build-tips. I wanted to play any ToB class since dnd 4th came out. But our old group had the rule that you had to have the book (and I couldn't afford it as an a-level student[schoolyear 11 to 13]) and then we had to do a break of nearly 2 years only filled with a one-shot here and there. Our city is really hard to get into a gaming group. We met our current DM (I DM for them also) via another forum and since june we search for something to play saturdays but so far nothing.

The Bard-lock
She is my GF and I know out of experience with her: Druid, Barbarian and Ranger are her classes. She knows some tricks, and can build them Powerful. Warlock was something new but the class in itself wasn't what she wanted to do and after seeing the Build of Oz the singing Warlock she wanted to do that.

I hope this helps and answers your questions.
On a side note: YES I am aware that a fighter with PA, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and EWP would do that stuff I did only with less skill points and hp but EVERY round.

[huttj509]

One thing that seems to be implied, but might not be clear...

How do the other players at the table ACTUALLY feel about the situation?

The DM thinks you're overpowered, but what about the other players?

Any advice needs to hinge on that. I mean, Fav. Soul using barely any spells...is that on purpose? That sort of thing.

As to the bardlock not using early-entry, the question there is "why?" I for one personally dislike using early entry tricks. They cross my "cheesy" line. Did she feel similarly, or not understand something about it?

You're definitely not overpowered on a general scale. If the campaign was intended and stated to be extremely low power, you may be OP for the campaign, but not in general.

Why do I ask about the other player's thoughts despite the DM thinking you're OP? Because that sort of thing really needs a common ground of expectations between all involved people at the table. If the other 3 WANT to step up their tactics (not builds, but usage of what they already have), then the DM might need to realize his expectations don't match those of the others at the table. If you truly are the odd man out, well, I dunno, go for regular attacks and ignore your maneuvers for the most part? I'm all for playing with one arm tied behind your back, but that feels to me more like both arms and 1.5 legs immobilized to get yourself to the others playstyle. I dunno, it sounds a bit harsh, but some of the descriptions sound like "did you realize your character sheet has more stuff on the back" territory.

[Gavinfoxx]

"I noticed you were playing the Druid a bit oddly. I thought I could give you some tactical advice..."

"Did you know that the Druid comes with a pet Fighter as a class feature? You might want to spend 24 hours in meditation to replace your animal companion with a Riding Dog Trained for War. This is the best low level animal companion; a Falcon can't really do much for the party. Put it in barding, and have it tank for the party. Bam, instant Fighter. Also, if you want a pet hawk or falcon, you should just get a pet hawk or Falcon; people purchased those for hunting all the time. The Animal Companion should be something more useful to the party..."

"At level four, you could trade that out for a Crocodile. Even though not war-trained, you can put it in Light Armor, as long as the armor check penalty is zero, like Masterwork Studded Leather."

"You've noticed that Lesser Vigor is a good spell. Kudos! However, it is not a good spell to prepare; we should pull together and get a Wand of Lesser Vigor. It's in the running for the best magic item in the game. 750 gp for 550 hp of healing basically means the party starts all combats at full or near full hit points."

"I've noticed that you could maybe use some help with your spell choice. A good spell, at low level, if you want to make attack rolls is 'Aspect of the Wolf', since you dumped strength. Another good spell is Entangle. For level 2 spells, you might want to look into Briar Web and Kelpstrand. Also, I notice you aren't using Summon Nature's Ally. It is a fantastic spell, you could summon Wolves with your level 1 spell, or Crocodiles or Hippogriffs with your level 2 spell. Those two creatures are REALLY hard hitting; you should look into them!"

[TopCheese]

It sounds almost like your DM doesn't want to take the time to deal with a Tier 3 melee type.

The Favored Soul is a great class but I haven't heard of to many melee focused Favored Soul. Some melee builds might have a dip in it though.

As a player I shoot for Tier 4 to Tier 3. I think that is the base level of play everyone should be playing at. If you want to go higher ... *shrug* I'm still useful and can keep up decently enough in the context of the game. If everyone else is Tier 1 I may step up my optimization but if someone is playing tier 5 or lower then that is their own fault (I'm looking at you.. The guy that plays a truenamer or a Fighter without shocktrooper/dungeoncrasher).

As a DM it takes a bit of thinking to deal with your players but that is the fun part of being a Dm. Being pushed to give your players a good and challenging game. About the only thing I ask of my players is to stay close in power themselves IF they want to (some ppl don't care) and Ill deal with the rest.

I had a group that consited of a Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Samurai (yeah the bad one...). The wizard and Cleric was optimized and the other 2 weren't. I took time out to plan for this and it never bugged the game. The Wizard and Cleric challeneged me on a different level, but it was worth it and I think the story benifited from it.

Sorry I'm against lazy DMs and I can't help but think that is the main problem :smalltongue:

[ThiagoMartell]

Sorry I'm against lazy DMs and I can't help but think that is the main problem :smalltongue:

Not everyone likes optimized games. Not everyone has the time to learn how to optimize. DMing is time consuming - you can't really blame people that play it straight out of the book. It's at the very least rude to call other DMs lazy.

[Krazzman]

Not everyone likes optimized games. Not everyone has the time to learn how to optimize. DMing is time consuming - you can't really blame people that play it straight out of the book. It's at the very least rude to call other DMs lazy.

Couldn't have said it better. He is a good DM but comes from a different group where monks seems to be able to "kick ass and chew bubblegum" and the latter isn't inveted yet...

To the new responses:

Bardlock early entry:
it stems from 2 problems. We again have the rule Books allowed are the books avaible to us. This consists of nearly all Faerun books, all completes, Bo9S and some other campaign settings (Frostburn/Stormwrack for example).
The second is she found it cheesy and didn't wanted to run this around him + she already started with the warlock 1 and then adapted the idea. She wanted to "optimize" for support. Wanting to sling some spells around and have invocations for herself (currently Dark Ones Own Luck and See the Unseen). She also knows about the fact that I am not really powerful but well she is my GF and knows me for over 5 years.

The Druid... well she just seemed to know of this spell because I used it with my warlock before (with a wand of course). And the Fav. Soul... I really can't read him for now. He is new to our group and so it's hard to tell. The Druid told me that the computing my damage seemed to be a bit confusing (it was late and i didn't had the strenght i thought i had..) and wouldn't be to her liking but I don't know what she and the fav soul think about my characters power level.

@ Gavin:
I got my girlfriend to help me with this one. We'll starting giving her a little piece of advice every now and then. But if it helps I don't know. I think the DM just needs a bit time to adjust things as I played a Warlock to level 6 before under(?) him. And there I was focused on survival and not on damageoutput or similar.

[juicycaboose]

This might have been said earlier in the thread but, maybe focusing on counters for your maneuvers for a bit might help, as at that point you won't be doing much else that a fighter couldn't also be doing (except for the whole good will/ref saves part), and if the dm still seems to think you're a little too high powered you could maybe point that out?

I wish you luck!

[TopCheese]

Not everyone likes optimized games. Not everyone has the time to learn how to optimize. DMing is time consuming - you can't really blame people that play it straight out of the book. It's at the very least rude to call other DMs lazy.

I work 60 + hrs a week at my job, I DM, and I have a fiancee. I know how time consuming DMing is. If I didn't put time/effort into the game then I don't deserve to DM and I shouldn't be doing it.

I can't really optimize to well but I still put effort into giving my players a challenge, the game isn't about me but the whole group. It is the DM's responsibility to make sure the game is going well and it doesn't take that much more time or effort to challenge a tier 3 class. If other players aren't put off by a character then what is the problem? It isn't like the Warblade has all the "I win buttons". Sure iron heart surge is a bit odd but you should take RAI over RAW on that one.

Perhaps your DM has never read ToB? Or he read all the D2 crusader stuff?

How is not putting time and effort into something not being lazy? I didn't say the DM was a bad DM just sounds like the DM is lazy.

Also on another note.

If a book is allowed then why is a player essentially being discouraged from using it?

I wish you luck in your game but it sounds like you have to play the rest of your levels as a Fighter or Monk. I feel bad cause most people who use ToB don't really like to just run up, hit, rinse and repeat.

It is a sad day when Monks are considered able to kick ass.

[ThiagoMartell]

I work 60 + hrs a week at my job, I DM, and I have a fiancee. I know how time consuming DMing is. If I didn't put time/effort into the game then I don't deserve to DM and I shouldn't be doing it.
Sorry, that's just not right. Anyone deserves to DM, even if they don't want to spend a lot of time on it. That is the reason behind published modules and bestiaries, after all.


It is a sad day when Monks are considered able to kick ass.
Disagree completely. I think it's very good that in some tables, because they don't push the system to the boundary, it seems to work better for more people.

But hey, if it works for you, that's cool. Just don't come here calling people "lazy" because they have other stuff to do. This might be surprising, but for most people D&D is not serious business.

[Krazzman]

Perhaps your DM has never read ToB? Or he read all the D2 crusader stuff?

He does not frequent any sort of forum where DnD or optimization is discussed.
In fact I brought the Book to the table as I (or better my GF) aquired it this year.
He already had the book for about 5 weeks now and the problem he has is: he compares to fighters and other melee guys. And jeah the direct comparison between Warblade and Fighter at low levels are brutal or even at higher levels.
HD of d10 compared to d12. Bonus Feat against Maneuver, Stance, Weapon Aptitude and a Reflexsave bonus of Int-Mod(1 per initiator level). 2+int against 4+int.




How is not putting time and effort into something not being lazy? I didn't say the DM was a bad DM just sounds like the DM is lazy.

He puts effort in his campaign. I would say its a good mix of taking standartised modules(things he used before)/encounters and effortful dungeondesign.
Granted his dungeons are a bit overdone but the main point is: it IS fun.
I have the problem that I can't really see if he really thinks my char is OP or if he said that a bit sarcastic.
He might mean it the way he thinks it is because of his other group where they just lay back and kick some ass with some unoptimized blasterwizards and so on. Or maybe their monk really knows what he is doing and rolled really well? I don't know as I never met the other group.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The biggest difference between the fighter and the warblade isn't in overall power, it's in range of available power.

A straight warblade 20 that's been optimized to hell and back, isn't significantly stronger than a straight warblade 20 that's been put together by someone who only nominally understands the 3.5 system.

Fighters, on the other hand, can end up anywhere between utterly useless crap and just as, if not more powerful than the fully tricked out warblade.

It's a problem seen when comparing most of the core classes to similar non-core classes.

I'm going to be posting a thread, in the not too distant future, that shows that most of what ToB offers can be simulated, if not outright replicated, without it.

[Gavinfoxx]

He already had the book for about 5 weeks now and the problem he has is: he compares to fighters and other melee guys. And jeah the direct comparison between Warblade and Fighter at low levels are brutal or even at higher levels.
HD of d10 compared to d12. Bonus Feat against Maneuver, Stance, Weapon Aptitude and a Reflexsave bonus of Int-Mod(1 per initiator level). 2+int against 4+int.

He does know that Fighter is considered too weak and not versatile enough, right? That Warblade is intentionally Fighter 2.0, the Fighter that can contribute in more situations, wheras the Fighter can't, right? You have explained that Fighter is one of the weakest classes in the game, right?

[Krazzman]

He does know that Fighter is considered too weak and not versatile enough, right? That Warblade is intentionally Fighter 2.0, the Fighter that can contribute in more situations, wheras the Fighter can't, right? You have explained that Fighter is one of the weakest classes in the game, right?

... I'm not sure how to respond to this.
I mentioned it. But as I said in his other group everything is fine. A monk can Kick ass, a Fighter is one of the most powerful guys there with Swordnboard or something like that and Wizards are not perceived as too powerful.

I explained in short that I have more options than a fighter but again I'm not so sure if he really means it but it gnaws at my mind...

[Kelb_Panthera]

So ask him straight, "Were you serious when you said you thought my warblade was overpowered?" or something to that effect.

I bet you're going to feel pretty silly if you got all worked up over this for nothing, huh?

[Gavinfoxx]

... I'm not sure how to respond to this.
I mentioned it. But as I said in his other group everything is fine. A monk can Kick ass, a Fighter is one of the most powerful guys there with Swordnboard or something like that and Wizards are not perceived as too powerful.

That is because his other group sets the power level and optimization level and versatility level and the agency level of player characters, in general, at 'staggeringly low'. Remind him of that, and that a PHB/DMG/MM1 only Cleric or Druid played with more than just a basic understanding of the rules would probably walk all over his campaign, soloing entire things meant for the party. A single study of 'what happens in his other game' isn't a large enough set to make a determination of what the class itself is capable of. However, if one is going against what the numbers of the system expects you to be able to do, by the Challenge Rating system and the monsters and situations in the book, YES the Fighter and Monk are really really weak and not able to do their job.

So basically, go into more detail...

[Alabenson]

He does not frequent any sort of forum where DnD or optimization is discussed.
In fact I brought the Book to the table as I (or better my GF) aquired it this year.
He already had the book for about 5 weeks now and the problem he has is: he compares to fighters and other melee guys. And jeah the direct comparison between Warblade and Fighter at low levels are brutal or even at higher levels.
HD of d10 compared to d12. Bonus Feat against Maneuver, Stance, Weapon Aptitude and a Reflexsave bonus of Int-Mod(1 per initiator level). 2+int against 4+int.

It sounds like your DM is making a common mistake among people who claim TOB is overpowered, and one that WoTC made throughout most of 3.x's run; using the Fighter class as a baseline for how powerful melee should be.
If you haven't already, you may want to point your DM towards the 3.5 tier list, along with the explanations for why each class is in it's tier.

If you still need to tone down your Warblade, I'd start by taking more maneuvers and stances from the Stone Dragon school, which is generally considered to be the weakest of the TOB schools.

[Terazul]

If you still need to tone down your Warblade, I'd start by taking more maneuvers and stances from the Desert Wind school, which is generally considered to be the weakest of the TOB schools.

Fixed that. Desert Wind is primarily non-scaling strikes that do fire damage, the most heavily resisted type in the game. Stone Dragon is only considered meh because of the "must be touching the ground" clause. Otherwise, it's fairly solid.

[Alabenson]

Fixed that. Desert Wind is primarily non-scaling strikes that do fire damage, the most heavily resisted type in the game. Stone Dragon is only considered meh because of the "must be touching the ground" clause. Otherwise, it's fairly solid.

The problem is Desert Wind is a Swordsage only school, which makes it using it to tone down a Warblade somewhat difficult :smalltongue:.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm going to be posting a thread, in the not too distant future, that shows that most of what ToB offers can be simulated, if not outright replicated, without it.

Shape Soulmeld doesn't count. Assuming "without [ToB]" means no Martial Study/Stance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shape Soulmeld doesn't count. Assuming "without [ToB]" means no Martial Study/Stance.

.... what? :smallconfused:

Do you mean martial study doesn't count? Because in that case I agree. Incarnum, however, is a part of the 3.5 system and I don't see why including it would make the sample builds any less valid.

[Hiro Protagonest]

.... what? :smallconfused:

Do you mean martial study doesn't count? Because in that case I agree. Incarnum, however, is a part of the 3.5 system and I don't see why including it would make the sample builds any less valid.

It's because it's not a fighter any more. It's a combat-focused incarnate or weak totemist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's because it's not a fighter any more. It's a combat-focused incarnate or weak totemist.

Devoted spirit, desert wind, and shadowhand all have SU abilities. Saying that ToB characters are all equivalent to completely mundane fighters is disingenious at best.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Devoted spirit, desert wind, and shadowhand all have SU abilities. Saying that ToB characters are all equivalent to completely mundane fighters is disingenious at best.

...

The monk has Su abilities. The paladin has straight-up spellcasting. The warblade's only abilities even on the edge of Su are Iron Heart Endurance (which could really just be explained as second wind in combat, and increased natural healing out of combat) and Earthstrike Quake (a maneuver accessible at level 15, which is a dead ringer for a ground strike Tai Lung performed in Kung Fu Panda).

Alright, sure, you can give the monk soulmelds. Paladin can be optimized on its own (I'll still choose crusader every time. Three skill points per level... ugh). But I won't consider it a valid one-upsmanship of the warblade if the fighter gets Su/SLA abilities.

[Kelb_Panthera]

...

The monk has Su abilities. The paladin has straight-up spellcasting. The warblade's only abilities even on the edge of Su are Iron Heart Endurance (which could really just be explained as second wind in combat, and increased natural healing out of combat) and Earthstrike Quake (a maneuver accessible at level 15, which is a dead ringer for a ground strike Tai Lung performed in Kung Fu Panda).

Alright, sure, you can give the monk soulmelds. Paladin can be optimized on its own (I'll still choose crusader every time. Three skill points per level... ugh). But I won't consider it a valid one-upsmanship of the warblade if the fighter gets Su/SLA abilities.

Fair enough, I don't think any of what I had in mind would've made the equivalent of a warblade with any supernatural abilities in-class.

Note that I said most of what's in ToB can be mimiced or replicated. There are a few genuinely unique effects. and IHS is one of them.

Also, I'm not trying to one-up ToB, just to show a rough equivalency.

edit: misread Iron Heart Endurance.

[xsinx]

Didn't read all the thread but I've been working on my first Warblade lately and I'm about done. I think in the circumstances, going for White Raven stuff would be the best. Your extra power and skill will be used to better the whole party, as opposed to yourself alone, so you'll basically be able to retain a similar level of power but spreading it across the party.

Another thing to look at is a dual-wield Warblade. The class is highly optimized for single weapon fighting, so going dual-wield makes for quite a bit of harder choices. For example, my Warblade went with dual-wield, mostly into Tiger Claw but the fact that I have now 4 attacks per round (level 7, so one extra from levels and another one from improved two-weapon fighting). This makes strikes a lot less interesting to use, since they have a added cost vs a 1 weapon style where the strike is just gravy. Even with 2 attacks, using a strike incurs a inherent trade off that helps balance things a bit.

You could also tone things down by getting less powerful weapons, or perhaps switching feats for utility more than combat-specific feats.

Hope that helps

[Sith_Happens]

Another thing to look at is a dual-wield Warblade. The class is highly optimized for single weapon fighting, so going dual-wield makes for quite a bit of harder choices. For example, my Warblade went with dual-wield, mostly into Tiger Claw but the fact that I have now 4 attacks per round (level 7, so one extra from levels and another one from improved two-weapon fighting). This makes strikes a lot less interesting to use, since they have a added cost vs a 1 weapon style where the strike is just gravy. Even with 2 attacks, using a strike incurs a inherent trade off that helps balance things a bit.

On the other hand, TWF Warblades can milk some truly insane damage out of Stormguard Warrior without a whole lot of other work. Which I guess just means that the OP shouldn't take Stormguard Warrior.