Swift Hunter and Ardent - does it blend?

[Cwymbran-San]

Hi there,

thunbing through the EPH i stumbled upon the Freedom Mantle and its related power, Dimension Hop.

So, if i mixed a level of ardent into my ranger X/Scout 2 Swift Hunter Build, would i be able to -

- Dimension Hop
- Use Rapid SHot as a full action AND
- benefit from Skirmish for every single arrow fired?

That would be a nice damage booster!

[RunicLGB]

That seems like a RAW vs RAI thing, as to whether teleporting like that constitutes movement for skirmishing.

If it works though it could also probably work with Abrupt Jaunt (Conjurer ACF), in case the DM doesn't allow Psionics.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is some debate on whether teleporting count as moving for the purpose of Skirmish. It depends mostly if you count movement as ending in a point in space different from the point in which you started or actual physical movement. If you use the former then yes, you can use it to activate skirmish, if you rule the latter you are SOL.

Also if your cha is 11 or higher, you can simply take the Hidden Talent feat (XPH sidebar) which gives you 2 pp and a single psionic power from any list. Go to the Psionic/Earth* Node wondrous location as detailed in CPsi to get extra 5 PP. A couple thousand GPs and a single feat are a much better trade than a level IMO.

*Can't recall the actual name.

[Curmudgeon]

The answer is no, and you can look it up for yourself in the Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary). Teleporting is never a movement mode (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_movementmodes&alpha=M). Relocating without movement doesn't satisfy the skirmish requirement.

[ThiagoMartell]

As Curmudgeon said, it does not work. But there are plenty of other options. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

[Dusk Eclipse]

A Shame really, cause I think thematically it should work... well we have shadowpounce for teleport spam attacks anyway (I just wish it was easier to get, Sun's School not notwithstanding)

[ThiagoMartell]

A Shame really, cause I think thematically it should work... well we have shadowpounce for teleport spam attacks anyway (I just wish it was easier to get, Sun's School not notwithstanding)

Well, Crinti Shadow Marauder gets it at ECL 10, doesn't it? Between Blade of Orien (ECL 11) and Telflammar Shadowlord (ECL 12) it seems like the easiest way to qualify.
There is a homebrew alternative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8760711), though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well apart from Homebrew all sources are Setting specific, and all of them (not sure on Crinti Shadow Maruder) are pretty tied up in fluff, so that is problem for some DMs/Campaigns.

And I hadn't seen that homebrew.. now I kinda want to try it.

[Cwymbran-San]

Checked back with my DM, he rates teleportation as movement to use for skirmishing. Reason: Skirmish, in his view, works because you change the angle of your attack before you strike, so teleporting is sufficient for him.

Thanks for the tip on wild talent, i pick up a level of ardent or Divine Mind anyway. Will help with my abysmal WIL-save :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Divine Mind is horrible, avoid it at all costs. Unless you really want something from Ranger early, I'd recommend going Scout 4 instead of 2 - no reason you can't grab that bonus feat, trackless step and fast movement.

[Cwymbran-San]

To be honest, i play the Ranger as a pure archer and like the full BAB which the scout does not have.

If i only need 1 Mantle and like the D10 HPs better than D6, why is Divine Mind so terrible? Short explanation please.

[Flickerdart]

Scout's 3/4 BAB only matters for Scout level 1. For the subsequent 3 levels, each one gives BAB+1.

Divine Mind simply doesn't do what you want it to - it learns its first power at 5th level. At that level, he had 4 power points. Ardents, on the other hand, actually start manifesting at level 1.

[Cwymbran-San]

Ah, now i see. Great, so Ardent it is. So upon reaching next level i will be Ranger 8/Scout 2/Ardent 1 with Swift Hunter, Freedom Mantle and limited spellcasting. Any suggestions for the second mantle?

[KoboldCleric]

Don't you need scout 3 to qualify for swift hunter?

[Cwymbran-San]

You sir are correct and i typed in the wrong number. My apologies.

[Coidzor]

Checked back with my DM, he rates teleportation as movement to use for skirmishing. Reason: Skirmish, in his view, works because you change the angle of your attack before you strike, so teleporting is sufficient for him.

Thanks for the tip on wild talent, i pick up a level of ardent or Divine Mind anyway. Will help with my abysmal WIL-save :smallsmile:

In that case, how's he feel about mounts and skirmish? Might be able to just go with a flying mount, especially if your character is small. Which would either cost gold or the Wild Cohort feat. Or possibly natural bond if you haven't traded away the ranger's animal companion and don't have enough levels for a flying mount and can't wait that many levels.

[Cwymbran-San]

Nah, i'm medium sized and we run a lot of dungeons, which means no mounts anyway. Something our paladin is extremely pissed off at.

So, still waiting for suggestions as to the second mantle.

[Spuddles]

If you are going archery ranger, can I suggest mystic ranger variant? It is spectacular.

Magic mantle should let you use wands and scrolls, I think. It gives some sort of weid super transparency to the psi-magic rules.

If you pick up practiced manifester, it interacts wierdly with ardent. You get more bonus power points and manifester levels, which means with ardent, more and new levels of powers.

I am sure playgrounders can fill details in that I forgot. AFB ATM.

[Cwymbran-San]

If you pick up practiced manifester, it interacts wierdly with ardent. You get more bonus power points and manifester levels, which means with ardent, more and new levels of powers.


Erm...according to my Complete Psionics, Practised Manifester only increases your manifester level and does nothing for your power points. Quote: This feat does not affest your power per day or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers. Unquote

So, the feat would help me pump more PP into a given poewr (kinda useless for my purposes), thats it.

Magic Mantle looks nice, especially low-level wands interest me.

What is this mystic ranger variant you were talking about? Is there a link or some other condensed information? Which book is it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Say you are an Arden 1/Something 4 with 18 Wis and Practiced Maifester, normally you would have the PP of an Ardent 1; but since bonus PP from High ability scores are a function of both the Stat and Manifester level you would get 10 bonus power points as per this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm)



How To Determine Bonus Power Points
Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.

[Flickerdart]

If you pick up practiced manifester, it interacts wierdly with ardent. You get more bonus power points and manifester levels, which means with ardent, more and new levels of powers.
That only happens if you take extra Ardent levels after achieving the augmented ML. You can't take one level of Ardent at the beginning and ride that one level as you get more ML.

[ThiagoMartell]

That only happens if you take extra Ardent levels after achieving the augmented ML. You can't take one level of Ardent at the beginning and ride that one level as you get more ML.

Why? Isn't the standard rule that you choose in which order you apply stuff?

[Cwymbran-San]

No, you simply do not gain additional powers just by adding practised manifester, this is just not what the feat does. Same with practised spellcaster, which does not grant you additional spells.

Though the trick with the additional powerpoints might work if my DM ignores the RAW (see my quote from the rules earllier).

[Dusk Eclipse]

No, you simply do not gain additional powers just by adding practised manifester, this is just not what the feat does. Same with practised spellcaster, which does not grant you additional spells.

Though the trick with the additional powerpoints might work if my DM ignores the RAW (see my quote from the rules earllier).

See my post on how ML interacts with bonus PP.

[Flickerdart]

Why? Isn't the standard rule that you choose in which order you apply stuff?
Yes. So when you gain level 1 of Ardent, you choose the powers you would qualify for as Ardent 1. You can't take Practiced Manifester before this because it's a psionic feat that requires Psicraft ranks and for you to choose a manifesting class you have. After you take it, you don't suddenly get to repick your Ardent powers, you'll need to take another Ardent level.

[Answerer]

This feat does not affest your power per day or powers known.
It says "powers per day" which is not a thing that exists. It's clearly a copy-paste error from Complete Arcane's Practiced Spellcaster. Yes, WotC's editors (if they did, in fact, exist) were atrocious. Particularly for CPsi, easily the worst book WotC ever published for 3.5.

My guess as to what they were going for is this:

Your Manifester Level increases, which increases your Bonus Power Points Per Day. Your effective class level does not increase, so your base Power Points Per Day does not change. This seems most internally consistent.

You could argue that when they said "powers per day" they meant "power points per day" and furthermore intended to include all sorts of power points, but that's clearly a houserule because it's definitely not what the book says (not that my reading is precisely what the book says, either).

Another reading could interpret "powers per day" as "unique powers per day," i.e. the unique mechanic that Erudites (a Psion variant published in the back of Complete Psionic) use. It's undoubtable that Practiced Manifester does not improve Unique Powers Per Day, at any rate, since that's not based on Manifester Level, but on class level.


Yes. So when you gain level 1 of Ardent, you choose the powers you would qualify for as Ardent 1. You can't take Practiced Manifester before this because it's a psionic feat that requires Psicraft ranks and for you to choose a manifesting class you have. After you take it, you don't suddenly get to repick your Ardent powers, you'll need to take another Ardent level.
This is correct.

If we want to be really technical, there's actually an official order in which you level up. Choosing your class and class features (and skill ranks) happens before choosing feats.

[Coidzor]

Nah, i'm medium sized and we run a lot of dungeons, which means no mounts anyway. Something our paladin is extremely pissed off at.

So, still waiting for suggestions as to the second mantle.

Medium-sized mounts can generally fit in dungeons. :smallconfused:

If Dungeonscape Races of Stone is allowed, nudge your paladin's player towards it for the Tunnel Fighting/Tunnel Riding feat chain.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Mounts must be 1 size larger than the rider. So Medium Pally needs large mount, which will usually be a drawback in most dungeons.

[Coidzor]

Mounts must be 1 size larger than the rider. So Medium Pally needs large mount, which will usually be a drawback in most dungeons.

Hence why I pointed out that a small character's medium-sized mount would work in dungeons. If the DM communicated this and the Paladin's player still went with a medium-sized race then those two feats provide a work-around. If the DM didn't communicate this and the Paladin had planned on a mounted build then that suggests better intragroup communication is needed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I see, I misunderstood what you mean; but I think it won't work at this point, because from what I understand the game has already started and both the swift hunter and the pally are medium, hence why getting a medium mount would be pointless.

[Coidzor]

I see, I misunderstood what you mean; but I think it won't work at this point, because from what I understand the game has already started and both the swift hunter and the pally are medium, hence why getting a medium mount would be pointless.

Well, it'd give flanking, and those feats I mentioned will let a large mount be used by a medium character in the majority of dungeon spaces unless the DM is a fan of forcing Medium-sized characters to squeeze into Small-sized, narrow tunnels where they have to crawl and fight at the same time.

[Spuddles]

Mystic range is from dragon magazine. Use teh googles to find it, yeah.

And it looks like practiced manifester trick for more powers known only works if you take more ardent levels later on. It defintely nets you more bonus power points, as per previous posters' clarifications.

[Flickerdart]

The Ardent's unique power-learning mechanic never gives it more powers. It merely allows it to multiclass out and then come back to Ardent without falling behind on the highest level of power you can learn, similar to an initiator class.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Ardent's unique power-learning mechanic never gives it more powers. It merely allows it to multiclass out and then come back to Ardent without falling behind on the highest level of power you can learn, similar to an initiator class.

Not quite - it means that the maximum level of power known is dependant on the ML, not the class level, of said Ardent. For example, an Ardent 5 can learn 3rd level powers. But an Ardent 1/Fighter 4 with the Practiced Manifester feat can also learn 3rd level powers.

[Flickerdart]

That's what I just said, yes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's what I just said, yes.

Is it? My mistake, then.

It looked like you were comparing it to Martial Adepts, who can jump in and out, and select maneuvers based on their IL. Ardents work the same, yet you didn't mention that since psionics doesn't have the partial advancing feature of Initiator levels, they can't actually select higher level powers without Practiced Manifester.

Mainly, it was me being nitpicky about you not mentioning Practiced Manifester.

[dextercorvia]

Not quite - it means that the maximum level of power known is dependant on the ML, not the class level, of said Ardent. For example, an Ardent 5 can learn 3rd level powers. But an Ardent 1/Fighter 4 with the Practiced Manifester feat can also learn 3rd level powers.

Actually, this isn't true with only Ardent 1. An Ardent may only learn powers based on its ML beginning with Ardent 2.

[Answerer]

It's also damn hard to improve ones Ardent Manifester Level before taking even a single level in Ardent, which was Flickerdart's main point.

[Cwymbran-San]

Now i am really confused. The table in my EPH concerning the bonus PP clearly states "class level", not manifester level.

I am still not convinced, Practised Manifester does anything different than Practised Spellcaster, meaning it enhances your chances to overcome Psi-Resistance and allows you to pump more PP into a given. There is not a single indication about new or higher level powers.

The entry for Ardent in the CmpP states, that an ardent must be of sufficient level to learn a new power. Class level, that is.

As for Mystic Ranger: i will google it up :-)

[Answerer]

Now i am really confused. The table in my EPH concerning the bonus PP clearly states "class level", not manifester level.
From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters):

How To Determine Bonus Power Points
Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.Underlining mine.


There is not a single indication about new or higher level powers.
Practiced Manifester certainly does not give you new powers. In most cases, it's also meaningless for higher level powers. However,


The entry for Ardent in the CmpP states, that an ardent must be of sufficient level to learn a new power. Class level, that is.
No, it does not.


At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however.
Being able to manifest the Power is the only requirement. Manifesting a Power depends on being able to expend enough Power Points to do so (and having the requisite Wis score). The number of Power Points you can expend on one Power depends on Manifester Level. (Actually, on that note, it seems to me that Overchannel could also bump up an Ardent's effective "Maximum Power Level Known")

You'll note that the Ardent, unlike every other manifesting class, lacks a "Maximum Power Level Known" column in its table. Even the (*shudder*) Divine Mind, which also uses Mantles, has one.

[Flickerdart]

The entry for Ardent in the CmpP states, that an ardent must be of sufficient level to learn a new power. Class level, that is.
No, that's not what it says. What it says is, "she must be able to manifest the new power at the level she learns it". The only restriction that psionic powers have on being able to manifest them is being able to spend enough PP to do so. Therefore, an Ardent with a manifester level of 5 (and that has 5 PP) is capable of manifesting, and thus learning, a 3rd level power.

[Cwymbran-San]

Ok, i will accept that Practised Manifester will give you the option of picking higher level powers, but only if i invest more than one level in the Ardent (because i cannot take the feat before being an Ardent in the first place).

But the bonus PP will not happen, because my DM does not give a flying fart about the SRD if the book says otherwise. And as i mentioned above, the table in the book refers to class level and the respective attribute, not ML.

So, with my 16 WIS and one level of Ardent, i would have enough PP to pull off my little trick three times per rest period. Sounds good to me. And with Magic Mantle, i could use a wand to become invisible and make this Skirmish-Rapid Shot-Maneuver even more interesting :smallamused:

[IdleMuse]

Okay, so, to clarify, I think this is what ardent-dipping does, based on this thread:

1| Ardent 1 - Get a low level power.
2| Ranger 1
3| Ranger 2 - Pick up Practised Manifester
4| Ranger 3
5| Ranger 4
6| Ardent 2 - Now I can get higher level powers, rather than just what Ardent 2 could get!

Is this correct?

[Answerer]

But the bonus PP will not happen, because my DM does not give a flying fart about the SRD if the book says otherwise. And as i mentioned above, the table in the book refers to class level and the respective attribute, not ML.
Then he should actually read the book. The line I quoted is identical in Expanded Psionics Handbook, pg. 18, under How To Determine Bonus Power Points.

Now, Table 2–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points has, as a heading, Bonus Power Points (by Class Level). However, Wizards of the Coast has been extremely clear: if a table conflicts with the actual text, the text is always considered the primary source.

So the rules, as written in the published book, quite clearly and unequivocally state that Bonus Power Points per Day are based on Manifester Level and not Class Level. You're welcome to houserule it if you want, but I personally think it's a bad change.


Furthermore, for the record: the SRD consists of only the material that WotC has put under the OGL, verbatim from the OGL. Any differences between the SRD and the book are a result of errata, which makes the SRD more correct than the published book.

(It's conceivable, of course, that the SRD has a mistake or typo somewhere; I've actually seen one or two minor ones. After many years of constant use. The point remains that a discrepancy is more likely due to errata than error.)


Okay, so, to clarify, I think this is what ardent-dipping does, based on this thread:

1| Ardent 1 - Get a low level power.
2| Ranger 1
3| Ranger 2 - Pick up Practised Manifester
4| Ranger 3
5| Ranger 4
6| Ardent 2 - Now I can get higher level powers, rather than just what Ardent 2 could get!

Is this correct?
It is. You also could have selected Practiced Manifester at 1st (it just wouldn't help you for Ardent 1, because you've already selected your class and class features before you get to selecting your feat). Might be good to know if there's another feat you want that you could have taken at 3rd but can't take at 1st.

By the way, you can create a table with the forum software using the {table] tag. Actually, literally all you need to do with your post to get a proper table is to enclose it with table tags.

[Spuddles]

OP- Answerer explains, perhaps a little forcefully, how practiced manifester nets you more PP. For your build, the increase in manifester level probably isn't worth it, as you don't need to spend more PP on your powers.

Do look up mystic ranger. I only have it in a crystalkeep doc, and that site went offline and/or I am not allowed to mention on these forums. There's a handbook, too, for mystic ranger. It suggests a swift hunter build.

Champions of Ruins has some terrific ranger spells, and mystic ranger is all about getting you more spells. Check out the ranger sub levels in Champions of Valor for even more spells. Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat that lets you use ranger slots to prepare wizard spells from a spellbook. The latter two suggestions require FR fluff. The arrow spells from champions of ruin do not have setting associated fluff.

[Answerer]

Forcefully? I literally was using the same bolding that Wizards used in the book...

[Coidzor]

There's a somewhat detailed write-up of the Mystic Ranger on the WOTC boards (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III?pg=1). Enough to tell you if you'd want to use it enough to do the rest of the digging.

[Cwymbran-San]

Thanks to all of you for your feedback. Answerer is correct: the feat would make sense if i wanted to pick up another level of ardent (whcih i do not plan to).

Also, the issue with the PP rules is explained by the loss in translation - we are using the german versions which explicitly state class level in table AND text. I try translating as good as i can. If this caused confusion or anger, i offer my apologies.

Will read about Mystic Ranger asap.

[Answerer]

Ah, that does complicate things. If you care to try it with your DM, I'd argue that Wizards, being American, are native English speakers, and therefore the English translation is most likely to be accurate. The German version could easily be an error in translation, possibly caused by the error on Table 2–1's header (as I've already said in this thread, WotC's editors are not exactly stellar).

[ThiagoMartell]

Yes. So when you gain level 1 of Ardent, you choose the powers you would qualify for as Ardent 1. You can't take Practiced Manifester before this because it's a psionic feat that requires Psicraft ranks and for you to choose a manifesting class you have. After you take it, you don't suddenly get to repick your Ardent powers, you'll need to take another Ardent level.

But that's only if choosing powers must happen before you choose feats and skill ranks, which is what I meant by choosing the order in which it happens. If this RAW, well, I think it's stupid. Another houserule to the pile, I guess.

[dextercorvia]

But that's only if choosing powers must happen before you choose feats and skill ranks, which is what I meant by choosing the order in which it happens. If this RAW, well, I think it's stupid. Another houserule to the pile, I guess.

There is a RAW order to the way things happen at level up, but that isn't the controlling factor here. The issue is that Ardent may only choose 1st level powers at 1st level. The text that was quoted only applies at higher levels.

[ThiagoMartell]

There is a RAW order to the way things happen at level up, but that isn't the controlling factor here. The issue is that Ardent may only choose 1st level powers at 1st level. The text that was quoted only applies at higher levels.

Ah, OK. That's more reasonable.

[Ziegander]

Checked back with my DM, he rates teleportation as movement to use for skirmishing. Reason: Skirmish, in his view, works because you change the angle of your attack before you strike, so teleporting is sufficient for him.

Thanks for the tip on wild talent, i pick up a level of ardent or Divine Mind anyway. Will help with my abysmal WIL-save :smallsmile:

Don't know if it's already been mentioned, but Kalashtar + Wild Talent is pretty great for this purpose. No level loss + PP = character level +2. Good stuff. I've been meaning to play around with a martial-type using this set up for a while now myself.

[Answerer]

Ah, OK. That's more reasonable.
It's not, actually. It's true, but even without it, Flickerdart is completely right.

You cannot choose the order to gain things when you level up; there's an actual official order to them. You cannot choose to take a level of Ardent, choose Practiced Manifester (Ardent), and then choose your Ardent Powers with your newly-upgraded Manifester Level. The rules explicitly forbid this; you must (among other things) choose your class and class features before you choose your feat for a given level.

Either you already are an Ardent 1 (and have therefore already chosen your Ardent 1 powers) or you do not yet qualify for Practiced Manifester (Ardent) (and won't be taking Ardent that level at all, since the opportunity to choose your class has already passed by the time you get to choosing your feat).

The explicit rule regard Ardent 1 would only apply to other Manifester Level boosts, ones that you could take before taking your first level of Ardent. For example, some naturally psionic race who had Overchannel (only requires a Power Point reserve, not any Manifester Level or ability to manifest powers, oddly enough) and an Orange Ioun Stone (by Magic–Psionic Transparency rules, the Caster Level bonus applies to Manifester Level as well) who took his first level of Ardent would start with a Manifester Level of 3 (while Overchanneling, but that's arguably still enough to "be able to manifest" a 2nd-level power; if you disagree, just assume I found another generic +1 ML/CL boost somewhere). But despite being able to pump 3 Power Points into a Power, he still could not choose 2nd-level Powers because of the explicit limit for Ardent 1.

Personally, I think that's a pretty dumb rule, but it is there. I tend to prefer multiclassing and like rules that allow it more easily. It's not like multiclass Ardents aren't giving up any thing; they lose a ton of Power Points by being 4 levels behind on their class level.


Actually, side note. Overchannel's Normal section states that "Your manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers." What? Do Psionic classes stack with each other for Manifester Level? Since when?

[ThiagoMartell]

It's not, actually. It's true, but even without it, Flickerdart is completely right.

I never said he wasn't. I'm also pretty sure I'm free to find anything reasonable or not.

[Answerer]

Ah, on that you are correct. I misread your original post saying it would get houseruled for you.

[Curmudgeon]

You cannot choose the order to gain things when you level up; there's an actual official order to them. You cannot choose to take a level of Ardent, choose Practiced Manifester (Ardent), and then choose your Ardent Powers with your newly-upgraded Manifester Level. The rules explicitly forbid this; you must (among other things) choose your class and class features before you choose your feat for a given level.
The bold part is wrong, I'm afraid. The full Level Advancement sequence is detailed in Player's Handbook on pages 58-59. The relevant steps here are:

1. Choose Class
7. Feats
9. Class Features
Step 9. Class Features is for all the choices you make from the details in your class description. This may help or hinder specific advancement plans. If you need a feat that's dependent on some choice of class feature, you'll have to wait until a later level. (Example: A Ranger doesn't get Two-Weapon Fighting at level 2 until they choose "two-weapon combat" for Combat Style, so they can't select a feat (Step 7. Feats) dependent on Two-Weapon Fighting until after that level.) If you instead need a feat before choosing a class feature, this will aid your plan. Specifically, you can take a level of Ardent, choose Practiced Manifester (Ardent), and then choose your Ardent powers with your newly-upgraded ML. You must still obey other rules, such as what powers are available at 1st level, of course.

[Answerer]

Huh, well then. It looks like that line in Ardent is actually necessary to prevent taking higher-level powers at Ardent 1.

[Flickerdart]

If a character taking a level of Ardent gains class features after feats, then he doesn't qualify for the "Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers." requirement of [Psionic] feats and still can't take Practiced Manifester.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If a character taking a level of Ardent gains class features after feats, then he doesn't qualify for the "Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers." requirement of [Psionic] feats and still can't take Practiced Manifester.

Unless the character is psionic to begin with (eg. Kalashtar, Elan, Tashaire humans (CPsi), etc...) or he's a race with bonus feats, and he selects Wild Talent BEFORE Practiced Manifester.

[dextercorvia]

If a character taking a level of Ardent gains class features after feats, then he doesn't qualify for the "Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers." requirement of [Psionic] feats and still can't take Practiced Manifester.

Wrong on two counts. Step 9 is only for class features which involve choices. He already has a power point reserve, and a ML, he can choose the feat. Also, feats have a special override to the order.


A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wrong on two counts. Step 9 is only for class features which involve choices. He already has a power point reserve, and a ML, he can choose the feat. Also, feats have a special override to the order.

Love it when the actual RAW makes sense.