CRs and balance in skirmishes/battles?Involving npcs

[Thewaitingman]

Hi, I'm new at dming and so far everything is running smoothly. I want to make an encounter where the group will fight together with some npcs. How do I balance the challenge ratings in this situation? I've tried multiple simultaneous battles before in which for one reason or another the PCs cant (or dont want to) get involved, like a cliff separating the 2 groups, but this time I want to make something like a skirmish where I know the PCs will want to get involved and the randomness of the whole encounter will add a realistic note ;)
Also, how do you handle the CRs and the battles in war-like encounters? I'm planning to throw them in a siege and I want them to feel the atmosphere of a large-scale battle while allowing them to participate (or at least make them think they do). Thanks!

[Ointhedwarf]

Well you could reduce any battle to a simple encounter by.. describing it. I mean even in a battlefield you could choose the enemies by CR normally and make the players understand they're the one their facing. So hell could be breaking loose around them while they focus on their enemies. If they want to get involved so badly then try to "erase" one old enemy for each new one, for example a group of 4 2nd level soldiers find themselves in a battlefield but their "actual" encounter is against 6 goblins, around them their allies are also fighting goblins, if a player chooses to attack one of the goblins in the background replace it with one of the 6 initial ones.

I imagine this could prove problematic with players that want to wreak havoc like cleavers or wizards who would likely search for groups close together and to avoid that you should make them understand that for some reason it would prove inefficient (getting in the way of the army's strategy or something).

As for involving npcs I've never ventured beyond the 4th player in a group of 3.. :smallfrown: Again I would suggest including them as backround characters, they keep hitting and receiving blows but nothing really happens.

Hope that helps

[Thewaitingman]

Thanks, those are some good thoughts but I think this postpones the problem rather than solving it.. I think this is a pretty basic DM tool, isn't there a table or something somewhere?

Lets say I have a group of 4 2nd level PCs and another group of 4 2nd lvl NPCs and I want to put them against hobgoblins, how do I balance it out? 4 hobgoblins are a challenge for the group but would the NPCs be up against? Do I consider them another group putting in 4 more hobgoblins? or do I place them against creatures of equal CRs? This definitely doesn't seem right...:smalleek: