Innate Spell

[Ranting Fool]

Random question: How good is Innate Spell (Player’s Guide to Faerûn)

You need Still Spell and Silent Spell (Both feats are nice enough, not world braking but have solid uses in most campaigns) and it turns one spell you can cast into a SLA 3/Day (You lose the slot/cast per day of the spell you want)

Worth it? Or very un-op? :smallbiggrin:

[Alabenson]

While I don't claim to be a master of optimization, after reading the feat description my gut instinct is that it could be very useful, particularly if you pick a spell that has an expensive material component that you'd otherwise cast very often, true seeing or forcecage, for example.

[Morithias]

It's worth it for spells you're going to cast a lot or that have a ton of uses.

I know this is high level, but let's take say the healer for miniatures handbook.

If you go all the way to level 20 in healer (which is a tier 5 class) you get true res as a spell-like...

once a week.

Rather than go all 20 levels, I'd rather take levels of Combat Medic or Healing hands of Mystia (SP?) and blow the 3 feats for true res 3/day.

Hell that's avoiding a TPK right there. Everyone is dead but the healer, the last enemy just died.

"Well we all need to make new characters, unless she can get 75k of diamonds in this wasteland"
"Actually I can cast it for free 3 times a day, you're all alive again."

[Alabenson]

It's worth it for spells you're going to cast a lot or that have a ton of uses.

I know this is high level, but let's take say the healer for miniatures handbook.

If you go all the way to level 20 in healer (which is a tier 5 class) you get true res as a spell-like...

once a week.

Rather than go all 20 levels, I'd rather take levels of Combat Medic or Healing hands of Mystia (SP?) and blow the 3 feats for true res 3/day.

Hell that's avoiding a TPK right there. Everyone is dead but the healer, the last enemy just died.

"Well we all need to make new characters, unless she can get 75k of diamonds in this wasteland"
"Actually I can cast it for free 3 times a day, you're all alive again."

I'm not one hundred percent certain that true rez would be a great spell for this feat, because you won't see real savings from the feat unless you cast the spell more than 50 times over the course of your character's career.
Then again, if you have an especially killer DM...

[Jack_Simth]

Random question: How good is Innate Spell (Player’s Guide to Faerûn)

You need Still Spell and Silent Spell (Both feats are nice enough, not world braking but have solid uses in most campaigns) and it turns one spell you can cast into a SLA 3/Day (You lose the slot/cast per day of the spell you want)

Worth it? Or very un-op? :smallbiggrin:
For a Wizard that has a particularly favored spell? It can be at high levels (e.g., Time Stop).
For a Sorcerer? No.
If your DM later permits you to take (or retrain something to) Supernatural Transformation (Savage Species), and follows the interpretation that Supernatural Transformation removes the XP / GP cost as it's now a Supernatural ability, then yes, absolutely, for basically anyone.

The Complete Arcane version of the same feat, on the other hand, could be worth it... much more expensive, though.

[Flickerdart]

It's been errataed. The Complete Arcane version is the latest one, and sucks way more - you need a spell slot 8 levels higher than the spell you want to cast as an SLA, have to pay all the XP as normal, and need a focus that's worth 50 times the material component's price.

[Alabenson]

It's been errataed. The Complete Arcane version is the latest one, and sucks way more - you need a spell slot 8 levels higher than the spell you want to cast as an SLA, have to pay all the XP as normal, and need a focus that's worth 50 times the material component's price.

The description I read had the XP and focus requirements, but I didn't see the spell level one. That restriction changes the feat from potentially useful to absolute garbage.

[123456789blaaa]

It's been errataed. The Complete Arcane version is the latest one, and sucks way more - you need a spell slot 8 levels higher than the spell you want to cast as an SLA, have to pay all the XP as normal, and need a focus that's worth 50 times the material component's price.

Ah but what you miss is that the PGtF version could only be used 3 times per day while the complete arcane version can be used at-will once per round.

This may or may not make it equal to the PGtf version but at least it levels the playing field a little bit.

[Jack_Simth]

The description I read had the XP and focus requirements, but I didn't see the spell level one. That restriction changes the feat from potentially useful to absolute garbage.
I generally consider them two different feats that happen to have the same name.

Complete Arcane: Burn a spell slot eight levels higher, but it's usable at will.
Player's Guide to Faerun: Burn a spell slot of the same level, usable 3/day.
Both have the same clauses about XP/Focus.
The Complete Arcane version also requires Quicken Spell (PGtF does not).

For the PGtF version, it's handy for an emergency escape spell - such as Dimension Door - in that it mostly prevents people from using the "normal" methods of stopping you from using it (Silence, Counterspelling, Covered Mouth Pin, et cetera). It's also handy for something you want to use in social situations, where being caught casting could be a problem. It also lets you use a "common usage" spell more often than you otherwise would (such as Time Stop).

For the Complete Arcane version, it's... handy at Epic levels (where you can make an 8th or 9th at-will this way; at-will Miracle is CRAZY USEFUL), and it's handy for particularly evil builds (Persist Greater Consumptive Field, use Summon Monster I to spam critters it'll kill into it, and feast for a VERY HIGH strength score).

[Alabenson]

Ah but what you miss is that the PGtF version could only be used 3 times per day while the complete arcane version can be used at-will once per round.

This may or may not make it equal to the PGtf version but at least it levels the playing field a little bit.

No, it really doesn't. The ability to cast a level 1 spell at level 17+ really isn't worth a feat slot. And at at epic levels, you almost certainly have better things to do with your feats.

[123456789blaaa]

No, it really doesn't. The ability to cast a level 1 spell at level 17+ really isn't worth a feat slot. And at at epic levels, you almost certainly have better things to do with your feats.

Hence why I said "a little bit"

[Flickerdart]

I generally consider them two different feats that happen to have the same name.
Except that's not how updated material works.

[Jack_Simth]

Except that's not how updated material works.
True. I'm aware it's not RAW. But the two feats have very, very little to do with each other, really.

[Flickerdart]

True. I'm aware it's not RAW. But the two feats have very, very little to do with each other, really.
Except that they both allow you to cast any one spell as a spell-like ability after sacrificing a spell slot you have?

[TuggyNE]

For the Complete Arcane version, it's... (snip) handy for particularly evil builds (Persist Greater Consumptive Field, use Summon Monster I to spam critters it'll kill into it, and feast for a VERY HIGH strength score).

Except that a reserve summoning feat is cheaper, earlier, and more scalable.

[blturner99]

I like using innate spell with anyspell, greater anyspell, Rary's mnemonic ehhancer, or Mordenkainen's lucubration.

[eggs]

Then it sounds like the trick is getting a really high-level spell slot. Extra Slot would grant the slot to sacrifice if you can cast high-enough effective-level spells. I'm sure you can think of a couple ways to be able to cast spells effectively above 10th level.

Also interesting: as an SLA, casting time is reduced to a standard action.[Pay no mind to the second-guessing flurry of SLA-edits behind the curtain. :p]

[Jack_Simth]

Except that a reserve summoning feat is cheaper, earlier, and more scalable.Nope. Greater Consumptive Field requires that the target have 7 hp or less. The lowest-HP elemental you can get from Summon Elemental is 9, if you're using the standard (average of 2d8), and considerably more than half of them will be immune if you roll it. You'll need Summon Monster I for the critters with 1 hp (Fiendish Raven).

[123456789blaaa]

Then it sounds like the trick is getting a really high-level spell slot. Extra Slot would grant the slot to sacrifice if you can cast high-enough effective-level spells. I'm sure you can think of a couple ways to be able to cast spells effectively above 10th level.

Also interesting: as an SLA, casting time is reduced to a standard action.[Pay no mind to the second-guessing flurry of SLA-edits behind the curtain. :p]

Yup. It's been done at the minmaxboards with the Yawn* I have Shapechange. At will. As a SLA. At 12th level." trick :"*http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5571.0 (" )

[Jack_Simth]

Then it sounds like the trick is getting a really high-level spell slot. Extra Slot would grant the slot to sacrifice if you can cast high-enough effective-level spells. I'm sure you can think of a couple ways to be able to cast spells effectively above 10th level.

Yes, the exact right build can have a 20th level spell slot available to burn to do something like a maximized Miracle early enough to get both Innate Spell and even Supernatural Transformation for it prior to 20th. Cheesy as all get out, but possible.


Also interesting: as an SLA, casting time is reduced to a standard action.[Pay no mind to the second-guessing flurry of SLA-edits behind the curtain. :p]
The wording is "A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated." (from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities))

[eggs]

The wording is "A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated." (from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities))
That was changed in the Rules Compendium. Whether primary source rules should make RC a waste of paper or not is up for [endless] debate, but it defaults SLAs to standard actions or shorter.

EDIT:

Yup. It's been done at the minmaxboards with the Yawn* I have Shapechange. At will. As a SLA. At 12th level." trick :"*http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5571.0 (" )
Cool find. And am I seeing an optimal pre-epic use of Eunuch Warlock with that build's strategy? I don't believe it. :smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

Nope. Greater Consumptive Field requires that the target have 7 hp or less. The lowest-HP elemental you can get from Summon Elemental is 9, if you're using the standard (average of 2d8), and considerably more than half of them will be immune if you roll it. You'll need Summon Monster I for the critters with 1 hp (Fiendish Raven).

Hmm, I see.

[olentu]

Hmm, I see.

Huh, I was pretty sure it was 9hp as of the spell compendium. Let me see if I can dig up my copy to check.

[Jack_Simth]

Huh, I was pretty sure it was 9hp as of the spell compendium. Let me see if I can dig up my copy to check.

Why, you're right! Looks like I didn't remember it right. So Summon Elemental would work! Nevermind.

[olentu]

Why, you're right! Looks like I didn't remember it right. So Summon Elemental would work! Nevermind.

Oh good, I was not just going crazy. Thanks for the confirmation, as my spell compendium has gone off somewhere.