Rage Mage gish help

[chaotician375]

My group is starting up a new 3.5 game, Core classes and races to start. and I was looking for a prestige class to shoot for and found the Rage Mage, and I don't care If its not a perfect gish but I love the flavor, and the fact that your spells become stronger when you rage I think its cool.

However I do need some help with the build, feats spells and the like. Right now I'm looking at Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 4/Rage mage 10.

[Roguenewb]

You know what I really like for Rage Mage? Duskblade 3/Bear Spirit Totem Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. (You don't need the pile of ACFs, but they help).

If you have to use a base caster class (and you can't get away with Precocious Apprentice) I like Bard. Buffing is one of the solid ways to build bard, and its the same 4 levels as sorc.

[Flickerdart]

Your spells don't become stronger. They become as strong as they'd have been if you had taken any other casting class instead.

[Eldariel]

Rage Mage is unfortunately ½ Progression Class which really means you'll never get the fun toys without a lot of work (really, higher level spells just do a ton of cool stuff for a warrior/mage; you have the obvious combat spells and Time Stops, Moment of Presciences, Contingencies, Teleports, Anti-Magic Fields, Greater Dispels and the like).

One way to get around that is the "Sublime Chord"-class from Complete Arcane. It's a fast progression class so you can get a bunch of levels in Rage Mage before entering it and then take Sublime Chord and be right back on the track.

You usually want to go like Barbarian 1/Bard 4/Rage Mage 5/Sublime Chord 2/Rage Mage +3/Abjurant Champion 5 (Abjurant Champion is in Complete Mage). This way you end up as:

Barbarian 1/Bard 4/Rage Mage 8/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5. This leaves you with:
16 BAB
9th level spells
All the big Rage Mage class features.

You could finish out Rage Mage but that would leave you forever one BAB below the maximum level. It's also Charisma-based casting which feels more appropriate for a Barbarian anyways. Yeah, it's Bard-based but that can't really be helped; Sublime Chord needs Bard-levels for you to be able to enter it.

And yeah, the skill point requirements on Sublime Chord are real rough but a Human could pull it off handily if you have "Able Learner"-feat from Races of Destiny (makes cross-class points in skills cost as much as class points).


But yeah, Rage Mage is really hampered by only having Cleric BAB and ½ Casting; it really doesn't get the basics in the class chassis itself (normally high level characters become good warriors or good spellcasters but Rage Mage doesn't really become either without taking levels in another class). As such, the only real way to make the class work is to get accelerated spellcasting from somewhere.

[chaotician375]

Your spells don't become stronger. They become as strong as they'd have been if you had taken any other casting class instead.

The spells are stronger than they would be when normaly cast by the rage mage. Also the Angry spell class feature raises the DC for Abjuration Conjuration Evocation Transmutation and Necromancy spells, making them more powerful than the stock wizards versions.

I like the idea of going into abjurant champion at later levels to give a bump to to spell casting and maintain BaB and hit die.

[Flickerdart]

The spells are stronger than they would be when normaly cast by the rage mage. Also the Angry spell class feature raises the DC for Abjuration Conjuration Evocation Transmutation and Necromancy spells, making them more powerful than the stock wizards versions.
A 1st level Barbarian/9th level Wizard/10th level Rage Mage casts 7th level (DC 17 + INT) spells at CL14. A straight Wizard 20 casts 9th level spells (DC 19 + INT) at CL20.

In a Spell Rage, the Rage Mage catches up to the straight Wizard in caster level, but only 3/day, at the cost of AC and some skill checks. It takes the Rage Mage 5 levels to simply catch up with the straight Wizard in terms of DCs, and he only surpasses him at level 20. In DCs of low level spells from only half of the schools.

For 95% of your career, you are always better off as a straight wizard than a Rage Mage. For the final 5%, the Rage Mage has a slight edge a couple of times per day, in DCs of some spells, while not being able to access the top two spell levels.

Ah, but you might say, the Rage Mage can also fight? Not well. His BAB is only 2 higher than a straight Wizard, his HP only about 20 higher. And the other wizard can shapechange into a dragon and squash him in melee combat anyway.

It's not just "not a perfect gish". It's actually worse than if you'd just gone straight wizard for gishing.

[eggs]

7th level spell effects are still nastier than anything the Warblade or Crusader can churn out. Rage Mage is less powerful than a Wizard, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

On the build, I'd start with a baseline of Barb 2/Sorc 4/RM 4/AbjChamp 5/Eldritch Knight 5.

Between Wraithstrike, rage and power attack, it should hold maintain a very high damage output without much trouble. Smiting Spell could be interesting, depending on your use (if casting the metamagicked spell maintains its granted bonus attack, as Curmudgeon backed when I ran it by the Q&A thread, it can turn any power attack gish into a duskblade).

I figure locked feats are Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, Power Attack, and maybe Extra Rage, leaving 6 feats free for whatever else. Some of the standard gish options like Minor Shapeshift, Smiting Spell, Versatile Spellcaster or Arcane Strike could work, but Intimidation/fear effects would be very attractive with Intimidating Rage access and a Charisma-focused build.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

A 1st level Barbarian/9th level Wizard/10th level Rage Mage casts 7th level (DC 17 + INT) spells at CL14. A straight Wizard 20 casts 9th level spells (DC 19 + INT) at CL20.

In a Spell Rage, the Rage Mage catches up to the straight Wizard in caster level, but only 3/day, at the cost of AC and some skill checks. It takes the Rage Mage 5 levels to simply catch up with the straight Wizard in terms of DCs, and he only surpasses him at level 20. In DCs of low level spells from only half of the schools.

For 95% of your career, you are always better off as a straight wizard than a Rage Mage. For the final 5%, the Rage Mage has a slight edge a couple of times per day, in DCs of some spells, while not being able to access the top two spell levels.

Ah, but you might say, the Rage Mage can also fight? Not well. His BAB is only 2 higher than a straight Wizard, his HP only about 20 higher. And the other wizard can shapechange into a dragon and squash him in melee combat anyway.

It's not just "not a perfect gish". It's actually worse than if you'd just gone straight wizard for gishing.

You are right in that the Rage Mage is a very sub-optimal class and does not deliver what it at first sight promises. However, it does offer something unique: Raging and casting spells at the same time. Now, whether that is something that is mechanically, or in theory, very useful is one thing, but for sure it is cool. I personally like the idea of the class very much, the character concepts it enables.

Therefore, because it is cool yet sucks, I treat it as a one-level class. As a DM I allow for the feat 'extra spell rage' (because, heck, why not?) and then it enables a character with one barbarian and one Rage Mage level and both extra rage and extra spell rage feats the ability to be a berserking spellslinger 3/day. Another nice feature is the CL=character level during a spell rage. For a fullcaster 18/barbarian 1/rage mage 1 it is not so useful, but some gishes have no need for 9th level spells. In some builds it is perfectly viable to settle for 7th or 8th level spells. That CL=character level during a spell rage allows you to burn some caster levels on a much better class than the rage mage (e.g. swiftblade, or one or two fighter levels for the combat feats) and still have fully effective spellcasting 3/day (while raging/frenzying under your super-enhanced haste).

Barbarian 1 / Wizard 4 / Ftr 1 / Rage mage 1 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 3 (or Swiftblade 8 / Abjurant champion 5) has access to 7th level spells, CL20 in fights, CL13-17 between fights and well, I think a frenzying barbarian flinging quickened spells while under hyperhaste is quite an impressive sight and a fun character concept.

The class is hopeless, but not entirely (only 90% :smallwink:) useless.

[Keld Denar]

Cerebral Rager from Hyperconsiousness is much better executed. Too bad it is much less frequently utilized.

I'd probably go with Suel Arcanamach as your casting base. You can fit either Barb4/Duskblade2 or Barb2/Fighter2/Duskblade2 as your entry chassis.

[Flickerdart]

Barbarian 1 / Wizard 4 / Ftr 1 / Rage mage 1 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 3 (or Swiftblade 8 / Abjurant champion 5) has access to 7th level spells, CL20 in fights, CL13-17 between fights and well, I think a frenzying barbarian flinging quickened spells while under hyperhaste is quite an impressive sight and a fun character concept.

The class is hopeless, but not entirely (only 90% :smallwink:) useless.
What exactly is Rage Mage accomplishing here? Your rage is the basic +4/+4, you only get it once a day without dumping mad feats into it, and you lost two class levels and a feat to doing it even the once.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Try using this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38898) or this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216177), because while the concept is cool, the delivery of CW's Rage Mage just falls completely flat. It's seriously not even worth considering on any character, ever.

Save DCs are irrelevant, any Gish worth the name doesn't cast those kinds of spells. The only offensive spells you should be casting will screw your opponents even if they make the save, like Web, Black Tentacles, and Freezing Fog, or strong single-target spells like Bands of Steel (on winged opponents) and Enervation. Your only damaging spells should again have no save, like (Maximized) Vampiric Touch or Shivering Touch (via a Spell Storing weapon), or Melf's Unicorn Arrow if you have Fighter 2 with Dungeoncrasher, or use Persistent and Fell Drain with Thunderlance, Cloud of Knives, Death Armor, and Fire Shield (both versions).

[Autopsibiofeeder]

What exactly is Rage Mage accomplishing here? Your rage is the basic +4/+4, you only get it once a day without dumping mad feats into it, and you lost two class levels and a feat to doing it even the once.

Raging and arcane spellcasting at the same time. As I said, it is in theory perhaps not the most impressive thing to do, but it is a unique combination that no other class offers. As such it can be the basis for fun character concepts that appeal to some people (like me). The build I mentioned (which I thought up as I was writing, I am sure it can be improved) can hold his own in higher level play and optimized play, can function just fine as a gish and brings a unique, in my opinion flavourful, ability to the table.

Edit: And of course I would choose whirling frenzy over rage. The extra attack and bonus to AC, strength and reflex saves beat the classical rage and are useful for any character that does melee combat.

[Vizzerdrix]

I feel the need to bring up Rune Scarred Berserker, so I shall. Full BAB. Advances rage. D10 HD. Decent skills. Not a real caster. You carve spells into your skin to use like scrolls later from a small, but decent list.


Also. Spell Rage is written strangely. It Specifically says you can cast spells while in a rage then calls out only being able to cast in a spell rage. Or do you only get to treat the listed schools as stronger spells while in a spell rage, but can cast them in a vanilla rage at their normal lower power? :smallconfused:


And could rage related feats be applied to a spell rage? It is a rage after all.

[killianh]

If its more about the flavour of a raging caster than the actual PrC, why not try Champion of Gwynharwyf from BoED? it lets you rage, boosts rage, and has a relatively nice closed spell list. It only goes to 4ths, but the casting is more of a supplemental than a focus