Killing an Undead Marty Stu God

[hyzigov]

So, my DM has had this reoccurring character. An Evil undead gnome. Smug, aloof and untouchable. A Baron Von Bad-ass. He's always way higher level than the party. "Did you crit? Then, no, you missed him." And he's always the BBEG. The DM gains sick pleasure from the party failing to completely destroy this character. We topple his empires, but he always escapes to build another.

I hate him. He needs to die. For once, the party needs to end his existence entirely.

The campaign is slated to go into epic. It's a Gestalt game, and we have a Archivist +Arcane/Warblade, a Rouge/Melee DPS, a Sublime Chord/Ruby Knight Cleric, and a Scout/Ranger sniper.

What I need is a way to kill an Epic Undead Caster of unknown (Possibly high hundreds) level and class. One that bypasses or takes into account SR and Saves. I'm sure he has more HP than we could ever touch, so direct damage is pretty much out.

[Augmental]

Tell the DM to stop power tripping, maybe?

[willpell]

Sit down and tell the GM that you believe this character's untouchable status is a liability to the campaign and you're really tired of having to put up with him. Don't *threaten* to leave the campaign, mind, but indicate that you're not having fun with the situation; if that isn't an alarm bell to the GM, he's probably a bad GM and you're well within your rights to cut him loose. If he's a good GM, he should be willing to leave Baron von Donkeyvil out of the game for at least a decent while, so you can enjoy other things.

[Kazyan]

You're not going to kill the Uber!DMPC via legitimate means, if his purpose is to be Better Than You. This is more of an OOC problem than an IC one.

[TuggyNE]

What I need is a way to kill an Epic Undead Caster of unknown (Possibly high hundreds) level and class.

The only way you could ever kill him is if your DM makes a mistake, or throws the match. The first option requires you to escalate the currently budding DM vs. players war, which I strongly recommend against. The second option requires the mercy of the DM; a merciless DM is not fun to play with*, so consider it a litmus test of sorts for whether you'll actually be able to have a decent game or not.


*Well, unless you make it about beating the DM, as mentioned.

[hyzigov]

The plot actually supports his power level, and by this point, this character has become a fixture of the campaign setting. Its something like going up against Strahd (Spelling?) in Ravenloft. I knew this going in, and his presence is not the issue. I just want to murder the jerk for once.

[hyzigov]

As I look at my initial post, "The Dm gains a Sick pleasure" Should be read with humor bordering on sarcasm, my bad.

[Slipperychicken]

Tell the DM to stop power tripping, maybe?

Seconded. If the DM doesn't want you to beat him, you won't.

[Sucrose]

Seconded. If the DM doesn't want you to beat him, you won't.

Thirded, for good measure. From what it sounds like, I wouldn't put it past your DM to cheat his pet BBEG into invincibility against whatever tactic you bring against him. Explain to him, out of game, that you're starting to get very sick of the unkillable fiat NPC in the game, and perhaps suggest a move to a setting without him.

There's no real way to win a D&D arms race against the DM, if he's bound and determined to beat you. If you really can't stand it, and your DM won't listen, all you can do is vote with your feet.

[NM020110]

Two responses that I can see working...

1.) High Cheese. If you can get a wish from somewhere (Pazuzu, scroll, djinni, just cast it, etc.) you can reach pun-pun while staying in the explicitly safe category. At this point, you should be able to at least match the DM's super character.

1.) Wish for a scroll of ice assassin targeting a reverend elder phaerimm with wish among its spells known.
2.) Use the scroll.
3.) Order the phaerimm to use its wish spell like ability to create a scroll of ice assassin targeting an elder brain with psychic chirurgy, astral seed, and fusion among its spells known.
4.) Use the scroll.
5.) Order the elder brain to use fusion on you, and then turn control of the gestalt over to you.
6.) Manifest astral seed.
7.) Commit suicide.
8.) Reform using astral seed (losing one level, but keeping all abilities of the fusion).
9.) Manifest psychic chirurgy to regain your lost level.
10.) Manifest fusion on the Phaerimm, astral seed, suicide, reform, chirurgy.
11.) Use your wish sla to get ice assassins of <everything in D&D>, fuse with them, and take their abilities. Yes, this does include manipulate form and the ability to be affected by it.
12.) Kill the undead god gnome.

You're going up against your DM directly with this, however, by attempting to build the most powerful character possible.


2.) DM assistance. Talk to your DM about it. The other posters here have likely already gone into detail on this.

[willpell]

The plot actually supports his power level, and by this point, this character has become a fixture of the campaign setting. Its something like going up against Strahd (Spelling?) in Ravenloft. I knew this going in, and his presence is not the issue. I just want to murder the jerk for once.

Or Elminster in Forgotten Realms, or Iggwilv in Greyhawk...practically every setting ends up with characters like this. If Mr. Ex-Gnome is meant to fill a narrative role, the DM may not think he's doing anything wrong, any more than Ed Greenwood did when Mr. Chosen of Mystra showed up and started spouting off about some damn thing. As I said before, you should probably let the GM know that this guy is getting on your nerves and to please get some better material (you might try absent-mindedly fiddling with a bucket of rotten tomatoes at the time, all while of course not actually planning to do anything unfortunate in the direction of the DM screen...but there's nothing wrong with fostering a little well-deserved paranoia*).

* This is probably bad advice and mostly said to be humorous.

[dantiesilva]

Wish him out of existence, wish him to be reborn. Have cleric cast resurrection on him or if you can get a scroll reincarnation. Then kill him as a kid. Other then that...Use the army I made if you have use of HoB that is. Archers firing from over 300ft. away doing close to 20 damage at 1st level each, unless their is so major DM wants this guy not to die 600 of them should kill it. Definatly when all 600 fire their arrows in a volley.

600d8+2400d6+dex+str damage( or int and wis if you take certain feats though this is a feat hungry creation from levels 1-3 so would not recommend it). Lets see a big get past that when all they need is a 20 to hit him at most with all his AC he would still be dead. Reflex save would give him half damage. Ok...have the person in your group with the highest BAB be the one that leads the arrow volley so it is guaranteed to hit then sure he will make it so his character auto wins the save so hopefully this works

600d8 + 2400d6 /2= damage

(600d8)[2797] + (2400d6)[8255] /2=damage to puny god.

So 5,000 damage roughly in one hit. For some reason I do not think a DM can come up with a way he survives that much damage in one hit. Even with DR of 3,000

[GreenSerpent]

Ice Assassin.

Solves ALL your problems. Let's see him work around THAT. All you need is a scroll of the spell, a block of ice and part of him (plus possibly some other simple stuff).

Perhaps do a swipe-at-his-hair and try and cut some off.

[Arundel]

Wish him out of existence, wish him to be reborn. Have cleric cast resurrection on him or if you can get a scroll reincarnation. Then kill him as a kid. Other then that...Use the army I made if you have use of HoB that is. Archers firing from over 300ft. away doing close to 20 damage at 1st level each, unless their is so major DM wants this guy not to die 600 of them should kill it. Definatly when all 600 fire their arrows in a volley.

600d8+2400d6+dex+str damage( or int and wis if you take certain feats though this is a feat hungry creation from levels 1-3 so would not recommend it). Lets see a big get past that when all they need is a 20 to hit him at most with all his AC he would still be dead. Reflex save would give him half damage. Ok...have the person in your group with the highest BAB be the one that leads the arrow volley so it is guaranteed to hit then sure he will make it so his character auto wins the save so hopefully this works

600d8 + 2400d6 /2= damage

(600d8)[2797] + (2400d6)[8255] /2=damage to puny god.

So 5,000 damage roughly in one hit. For some reason I do not think a DM can come up with a way he survives that much damage in one hit. Even with DR of 3,000

I assume with hundreds of class levels he can pick up wind wall somewhere. Or buy a wand of the lvl 3 spell.

[DoctorGlock]

My default to a situation like this is one of two things: Teleport through Time (the spell) and gank him before he is born

Alternately use gate twice. Once to the plane of fire, once to the center of the nearest brightest star. Nuclear death in a millions mile long column that ignites the atmosphere and possibly overkills the whole planet should gank the guy. More realistically, just rout the flow through his demiplane.

[Snowbluff]

My default to a situation like this is one of two things: Teleport through Time (the spell) and gank him before he is born

Alternately use gate twice. Once to the plane of fire, once to the center of the nearest brightest star. Nuclear death in a millions mile long column that ignites the atmosphere and possibly overkills the whole planet should gank the guy. More realistically, just rout the flow through his demiplane.

Sleight of Handing his spell pouch should give the object from his demiplane you need to get in.

[GreenSerpent]

Ice Assassin, plus Mantle of the Fiery Spirit. You now have his own character under your absolute control (plus immunity to cold and fire), and with an all-consuming need to kill him.

Seriously, is there NOTHING Ice Assassin can't do?

[Snowbluff]

Ice Assassin, plus Mantle of the Fiery Spirit. You now have his own character under your absolute control (plus immunity to cold and fire), and with an all-consuming need to kill him.

Seriously, is there NOTHING Ice Assassin can't do?

It can't feel love!

[GreenSerpent]

It can't feel love!

Programmed Amnesia/Mindrape? That might work.

Though, to be honest, it's a magically animated ice replica of someone who it is bound to hunt down and kill. It doesn't need to feel love.

EDIT: Awesome plot idea now. I'd probably rule that Ice Assassins are Constructs. Cast awaken construct on them, rule it gives them free will... I have a very nice idea now.

[hyzigov]

Ice assassin could work! We have two casters able to use this, so I'm thinking to just spam the crap out of it. The Undead jerk has undoubtedly got teleportation and Scry of epic enough levels to bypass his own defenses, so Just send a dozen or so copies of himself. Thanks!

[Randomguy]

Get yourselves a mirror of opposition and put it in a protable hole. When you next see him, take out the mirror so his reflection fights him. It's basically a more expensive Ice Assassin but you don't need a chunk of him for it to work.

[demigodus]

First, clarify with your DM that this guy has been stated out as a PC, and that his abilities, prepared spells, known spells, contingencies, equipment, etc., are all set in stone, and won't be changed, even upon imminent death. NOTHING kills schrodinger's wizard.

[Glimbur]

Undead can be turned. There's no saving throw for it. Granted, you need to get your effective turning level high enough to hit his hit dice, but do that and grab the Sun domain and he's dead. Dead dead dead. Unless he's got a contingency for that, in which case you made him mad. See if you can Dimensional Anchor/Lock him first.

[Howler Dagger]

1. Kill off your current character
2. Start as a level 1 kobold
3. Ascend to Pun-Pun
4. ????????????????
5. Profit!

[willpell]

Ice assassin could work! We have two casters able to use this, so I'm thinking to just spam the crap out of it. The Undead jerk has undoubtedly got teleportation and Scry of epic enough levels to bypass his own defenses, so Just send a dozen or so copies of himself. Thanks!

Unfortunately the GM could probably sensibly rule that the assassins perceive each other as their target.

[Jack_Simth]

How much are you willing to burn in resources, and is this going to be a team effort?

Step One:
Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm), for the clause "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw."

Step two:
Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) up a Resurrection on him. He'll no longer be undead (it's a clause in The Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)).

Step three:
Disjoin him.

Step four:
Wish up a Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) on him, with enough of the additional stuff that he no longer has a save.

Edit:
Oh yes, and you'll probably need one or two Greater Rods of Quicken Spell to pull it off. And a LOT of spellcasting minions. But put him in a little itty bitty jar.

[fryplink]

Or Elminster in Forgotten Realms, or Iggwilv in Greyhawk...practically every setting ends up with characters like this. If Mr. Ex-Gnome is meant to fill a narrative role, the DM may not think he's doing anything wrong, any more than Ed Greenwood did when Mr. Chosen of Mystra showed up and started spouting off about some damn thing. As I said before, you should probably let the GM know that this guy is getting on your nerves and to please get some better material (you might try absent-mindedly fiddling with a bucket of rotten tomatoes at the time, all while of course not actually planning to do anything unfortunate in the direction of the DM screen...but there's nothing wrong with fostering a little well-deserved paranoia*).

* This is probably bad advice and mostly said to be humorous.

No. Paranoia is a completely different game. (the quote is exists just for the joke, is not connected to the real response.)

On a more serious note. This is a DM problem; and a common one. Try pointing it out for him, if he is worth his salt it'll slow down (it won't go away if the character is part of the plot), and make him more of a background villain instead of someone you are tripping over.

[Invader]

Yeah if the DM doesn't want him to die, he's not going to regardless of what you can actually do. I agree with everyone else, talk to you DM and if he doesn't relent a bit then maybe it's time for a new DM.

[animewatcha]

Can you find out his HD? If within twice caster level, why not Gate him or a 'version' of him that has same unkillable-ness. Then force the DM to have the two battle it out.

[Arundel]

Can you find out his HD? If within twice caster level, why not Gate him or a 'version' of him that has same unkillable-ness. Then force the DM to have the two battle it out.

What?

I haven't heard of gate being able to do this. Or anything like this really. Whats the source? If I haven't been exploiting Gate ruthlessly enough I would be pretty excited. Are you just using a super broad interpretation of the second effect or another thing entirely?

[Slipperychicken]

Can you find out his HD? If within twice caster level, why not Gate him or a 'version' of him that has same unkillable-ness. Then force the DM to have the two battle it out.

The original always beats his clones, even when every one is objectively better than him and outnumber him 20 to 1. Because story, that's why.


You might have rules-based win buttons, but the DM has bull****-based win buttons. He will win.

[Dayaz]

>.>

find out his truename.
use a wish powered by his truename to turn him back into a living gnome.
use another to turn him into a level 1 gnome.
kill him.

[killianh]

From what it sounds like this seems like a novice DM mistake. Create a villain that is to face the party, but don't let the party kill him until the end of the plot. That's usually well and good, but the mistake comes in from over using the villain in too many sessions before the final show down.

If that is the case, but otherwise its a good game there isn't much IC that can be done. OOC you could ask him to tone down the adventures against him directly if they are detracting from game play. If the DMPC is killable at any point look at this (http://web.archive.org/web/20061112212633/boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546613) and you will have your solution. The character that pulls it off isn't gestalt so one side of the build can be what's needed, the other side can be whatever

[Zubrowka74]

I think you guys didn't read all of the OP's posts. It's not a DM problem as it was clear from the begining that the campaign would include this character. I would'nt be surprise if it wasn't stated out. It's just a plot device.

[TuggyNE]

I think you guys didn't read all of the OP's posts. It's not a DM problem as it was clear from the begining that the campaign would include this character. I would'nt be surprise if it wasn't stated out. It's just a plot device.

How is that any different from what killianh said, and how is that not a DM problem?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, Mailman build ought to do the trick. Several thousand damage, no save, no SR, just go fall down now. And no, even if you are immune to it, you still take half damage.

Use Craft Contingency to set up a bunch of True Strike or Moment of Prescience (or both) on verbal command (free action) to ensure they actually hit. +45 to attack on a touch attack and negating all concealment miss chance ought to make him very targettable indeed. Assuming it's actually him and not a Clone/Astral Projection/Programmed Image.

Either that, or you resort to your trump card.

"Huh? Game? Nah, I'm busy man. Yea, I got this... yanno... thing. Elsewhere. Sorry."

[killianh]

I think you guys didn't read all of the OP's posts. It's not a DM problem as it was clear from the begining that the campaign would include this character. I would'nt be surprise if it wasn't stated out. It's just a plot device.

I read the OP. It said that he was getting annoyed at a DMPC that was unkillable and was recurring too often. So I gave him potential advice for both IC and OOC depending on the nature of the DMPC and the DM

[animewatcha]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

I am basing this on stretching the 'person from another plane' to 'person from another world/realm.' Which, if anything, should be VERY extraplanar. Deities and 'unique beings' ( good luck with this one ) can reject it, but otherwise the called one has to obey you within the spell thing. Longer than 1 round per caster level would mean contractual service etc.

Have it 'tell you' about 'himself' so you know exactly what other person is and proceed to call the DM on everything as needed

Keep in mind, this is when it becomes arms race versus the DM and outside the 'please quit it, no longer fun/annoying' phase.