can a vampire be unvamped?

[robertbevan]

is there anything in the monster manual rules i missed about a vampire being able to regain his humanity?

like in "the lost boys", if you kill the head vampire all the other vampires turn back into humans. but as far as i can make out, killing the head vampire in 3.5 just means that any subservient vampires he has under his control are now free vampires. is that right?

so... any clerical spells? a wish? anything? (and yeah, i know it's a game and if i really want it to happen it can, but i'm looking for something within the rules.)

[BCOVertigo]

I've never looked into the legality of such an action, and I'm away from my resources atm, but trying to resurrect one might be funny. Assuming of course you can account for how slippery they are (gaseous form and such).

[robertbevan]

I've never looked into the legality of such an action, and I'm away from my resources atm, but trying to resurrect one might be funny. Assuming of course you can account for how slippery they are (gaseous form and such).

oooohhh.... i like this. people, if there's anything to this, please keep talking about it.

[olentu]

Re-kill them and cast resurrection/true resurrection.

[Darth Stabber]

A willing vampire could be unundeaded by any raise dead type of spell. Unfortunately no method of raising the dead to life is unilateral. The soul in question must wish to be returned to the living. If you want to cook up a specialized spell that doesn't allow the choice, you could get that to work, but in all honesty that would easily be an epic spell.

[TuggyNE]

Re-kill them and cast resurrection/true resurrection.

This is the simplest method, and works on any undead that were ever alive (which is presumably nearly all of them).

[killianh]

true res, reincarnation (for various and humorous results), wish or miracle (if worded right can do anything).

those are all I can think up

[Baron Malkar]

You could always have him get bit by the pope. That should work.:smallcool:

[AntiTrust]

Dragon Magazine had an article about Pelor where it says in one of his myth's/legends that the first vampires were caused by turning away from Pelor's light which is why it now burns them. The story ends by saying that if a vampire could be turned back towards Pelor he would welcome them with open arms. So it might be possible for them to become normal again if they worship Pelor.

[Jarveiyan]

In a game I ran to take out an npc ftr/der I had the a letter from the npc's tribe arrive asking him back to help with recent "developments". One of my players took the chance to have his 1/2 SilverDragon pc go with(much to the rest of the parties delight).

Later on when the party was about 15th lvl they both showed up as vampire combatants that was turned by one of Orcuses(the female ninja vampire from MM2 I believe). In the ensuing battle 1 or 2 of the party was dropped and all 3 vamps were toasted. I allowed the npc and previous pc to be brought back with a true res(ea.) due to the fact the master had been downed. This seems to be a popular house rule or occurance around other tables from what the others in this topic have said.

[TopCheese]

Dragon Magazine had an article about Pelor where it says in one of his myth's/legends that the first vampires were caused by turning away from Pelor's light which is why it now burns them. The story ends by saying that if a vampire could be turned back towards Pelor he would welcome them with open arms. So it might be possible for them to become normal again if they worship Pelor.

You should look into the theory that Pelor is actually an evil god.

Seriously there is a forum post on another site that has ton of proof and stuff and makes it sound like it is even known by WoTC (they planted hints).

Its pretty interesting

[ThiagoMartell]

According to the Monster Manual I, if you kill the vampire's sire, the vampire becomes human again.

[Telonius]

You should look into the theory that Pelor is actually an evil god.

Seriously there is a forum post on another site that has ton of proof and stuff and makes it sound like it is even known by WoTC (they planted hints).

Its pretty interesting

Pelor, the Burning Hate. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate)

[Lord_Gareth]

According to Libris Mortis, Ressurection and stronger magics work on undead beings just fine, causing them to turn back into the person they were in life. It doesn't say if they get a decision in the matter or not.

[Frosty]

I think it's a will save, but in this case, I'd rule it as a Melee Touch attack. It's a will-save-or-live :smalltongue:

[BCOVertigo]

I would allow it if the verbal and somatic components were changed to shoving the diamond down the vampires throat and delivering a suitably awesome one liner.

[Flickerdart]

I would allow it if the verbal and somatic components were changed to shoving the diamond down the vampires throat and delivering a suitably awesome one liner.
Diamond swords with Contingent Sanctum Resurrection on them. Stab a vampire, contingency triggers, sword goes poof, vampire goes poof, living ensues.

[Urpriest]

According to the Monster Manual I, if you kill the vampire's sire, the vampire becomes human again.

Could you quote the relevant paragraph? I can't seem to find it.

[robertbevan]

Re-kill them and cast resurrection/true resurrection.

nice and simple. i'll keep it in mind.



A willing vampire could be unundeaded by any raise dead type of spell. Unfortunately no method of raising the dead to life is unilateral. The soul in question must wish to be returned to the living. If you want to cook up a specialized spell that doesn't allow the choice, you could get that to work, but in all honesty that would easily be an epic spell.

i don't want to dive too deep into discussing the nature of the soul, but i'll take a quick stab at this. what you're saying presupposes that the soul of the original person is a separate entity from the vampire, right? i'm thinking of it like a burglar just up and claiming some dude's house. surely the vampire would be unwilling to give back the body, but i think the soul would be more than willing to return (unless the original person had willingly given themselves to the vampire -- as in suicide) if given the opportunity.

if you're still reading this thread, darth stabber, i'd like to know what you think.



According to the Monster Manual I, if you kill the vampire's sire, the vampire becomes human again.

that would make my life a lot easier. but unfortunately, i see no such passage in the monster manual.



According to Libris Mortis, Ressurection and stronger magics work on undead beings just fine, causing them to turn back into the person they were in life. It doesn't say if they get a decision in the matter or not.

can you point me to a page number? i'd like to further investigate this. thank you.


thank you everyone.

[MukkTB]

That's a really interesting question. Its pretty important RAW. Do vampires possess their original souls? If they don't then any old resurrection spell has a pretty good chance of destroying them.

[Jack_Simth]

Could you quote the relevant paragraph? I can't seem to find it.
It's actually part of the undead type entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), and is core:
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

[robertbevan]

It's actually part of the undead type entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), and is core:

nice find. thanks for that.

[Coidzor]

That's a really interesting question. Its pretty important RAW. Do vampires possess their original souls? If they don't then any old resurrection spell has a pretty good chance of destroying them.

I don't know about vampires, but liches are the original, just altered by their undead state and what they did to get there. People like to group vampires in with liches.

There's a lot of undead, such as wraiths and ghosts where it is the soul but it has been twisted and/or driven insane and given a new form. I think shadows take the soul and then hijack it with Shadowness.

The way vampires, such as Strahd for instance, are usually portrayed, there's more of a twisted connection to the previous life than some new entity coming in and living with the previous entity's memories.

[Urpriest]

It's actually part of the undead type entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), and is core:

Not what I was referring to. I think you intended to quote someone else.

[Jack_Simth]

Not what I was referring to. I think you intended to quote someone else.
Would seem to be the case. Ah well.

[Darth Stabber]

i don't want to dive too deep into discussing the nature of the soul, but i'll take a quick stab at this. what you're saying presupposes that the soul of the original person is a separate entity from the vampire, right? i'm thinking of it like a burglar just up and claiming some dude's house. surely the vampire would be unwilling to give back the body, but i think the soul would be more than willing to return (unless the original person had willingly given themselves to the vampire -- as in suicide) if given the opportunity.

I am operating under the assution that vampires retain the soul they had in life, though that assumption might be unduely influenced by V:tM. Infact I use that assumption for many intelligent undead (though it applied rather haphazardly, based mostly on gut feeling), and have allowed players killed by wights to level in wight (using the ss progression on the wotc site) if they don't want to retire their characters. Mindless undead are a different story, I assume their souls have passed on without exception (or become some sort of incorporeal undead).

[RFLS]

Now, what if you wanted to...REvamp (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revamp) him?

[Frosty]

An unead retains its soul. In fact, it's one of the ways to cheat one's way out of one's final reward. Don't wanna go to Hell? Turn yourself into a Vampire to avoid death via old age! Although the more popular option is lichdom.

[NEO|Phyte]

A willing vampire could be unundeaded by any raise dead type of spell. Unfortunately no method of raising the dead to life is unilateral. The soul in question must wish to be returned to the living. If you want to cook up a specialized spell that doesn't allow the choice, you could get that to work, but in all honesty that would easily be an epic spell.
One is, but you kinda have to be a deity to do it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife). Well, I guess looking closer you still need the permission of whoever is in charge of the dead.

[Steward]

You know how some undead are amalgamations of a many different dead creatures? (The charnel hound is one; it's essentially a giant hound made entirely out of corpses that have been fused together into the rough shape of a dog). What if you hit that thing with a True Resurrection -- would just one of the constituent bodies be revived? How would that impact the creature?

Or if resurrection doesn't work, what if a deity used the Gift of Life (assuming all relevant permissions are granted)?

[Rubik]

Diamond swords with Contingent Sanctum Resurrection on them. Stab a vampire, contingency triggers, sword goes poof, vampire goes poof, living ensues.Diamond stake.

[Razgriez]

Doesn't PHB II make note of various magical areas that can transform a character and allow a character to rebuild themselves as they see fit within reason, and that one such example, was a Paladin who did that?

[Darth Grall]

I actually have a character in my PF game who's goal is to be "unvamped" but can't because he's still one of the spawn of his maker whom won't allow it. So I reserched reviving the undead and can reiterate most of what's been said here, but also a bit more that I thought on the subject.

As for whether the soul is willing, since becoming a vamp changes alignment to evil, I think it's akin to magical alignment change. They may want to, but their new alignment changes their perceptions on it. For example, a character who want's to simply because he doesn't want to be a vampire because their evil, might not mind it so much once he's actually a vampire(perhaps enjoying his new ability to inflict pain an suffering). Now, a character who wants to switch because it interferes with his plans in some way, or the desire to become a different undead like a lich, I'd say that his motivation remains "true" inspite of everything.

Now, when the vampire is re-dead and appropriately freed from their undead form, I'd say they revert to their traditional alignment and are allowed to, sans vampiric euphoria, to be considered willing for revival without restriction.

[lunar2]

I actually have a character in my PF game who's goal is to be "unvamped" but can't because he's still one of the spawn of his maker whom won't allow it. So I reserched reviving the undead and can reiterate most of what's been said here, but also a bit more that I thought on the subject.

As for whether the soul is willing, since becoming a vamp changes alignment to evil, I think it's akin to magical alignment change. They may want to, but their new alignment changes their perceptions on it. For example, a character who want's to simply because he doesn't want to be a vampire because their evil, might not mind it so much once he's actually a vampire(perhaps enjoying his new ability to inflict pain an suffering). Now, a character who wants to switch because it interferes with his plans in some way, or the desire to become a different undead like a lich, I'd say that his motivation remains "true" inspite of everything.

Now, when the vampire is re-dead and appropriately freed from their undead form, I'd say they revert to their traditional alignment and are allowed to, sans vampiric euphoria, to be considered willing for revival without restriction.

vampire template does not automatically change alignment. remember that "always x" doesn't actually mean always, it means "overwhelming majority". only templates that specifically say that the base creature's alignment has changed (like lolth-touched, or afflicted lycanthropy) actually change the creatures alignment.

[hamishspence]

According to Libris Mortis, Ressurection and stronger magics work on undead beings just fine, causing them to turn back into the person they were in life. It doesn't say if they get a decision in the matter or not.

Oddly, the spells themselves say they can't resurrect undead beings:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

maybe by "resurrect" they mean "bring it back, as an undead, after it's been destroyed".

[Urpriest]

maybe by "resurrect" they mean "bring it back, as an undead, after it's been destroyed".

Raise Dead does not allow people who were turned into an undead and destroyed to be raised, but Resurrection explicitly does:

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

It's the undead creature itself that neither spell can resurrect, as you suspect.

[Doxkid]

According to the Monster Manual I, if you kill the vampire's sire, the vampire becomes human again.

Did you mean a Monster Manual from first edition, or something?
Here's hoping you'll come back, despite whatever error you just made. People tend to vanish once they realize they were wrong.

[ThiagoMartell]

Did you mean a Monster Manual from first edition, or something?
My Monster Manual is in Portuguese. It took me a while to answer because I needed a Monster Manual in English to verify. After checking, I can't even see how I read that in the Portuguese version. I was probably just misremembering.


Here's hoping you'll come back, despite whatever error you just made. People tend to vanish once they realize they were wrong.
WOW!! Insulting people in white text!! Classy.

[TuggyNE]

WOW!! Insulting people in white text!! Classy.

Meh, I'd interpreted it as a sort of general pessimism toward Internet posters — which, obviously, you're an exception to, but the general rule is surprisingly accurate.