1st Level Rogue, Melee or Range or Both?

[OzzyKP]

Heh, so I feel guilty since I just got all sorts of fantastic help from you fine people when I asked about creating my paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254339), but I just joined another game and now I'm hoping for help with a whole other character! You all did such a great job the first time, so.. why not?

The game is 3.5 core, no extra books or house rules or anything.

I'm going with a Strongheart Halfling Rogue (despite the no house rules I think I can use the Strongheart subrace)

The numbers I rolled: 9, 9, 17, 10, 13, 14

I can't decide whether to go with Option A:

STR - 7
DEX - 19
CON - 13
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 9

Or Option B:

STR - 11
DEX - 19
CON - 10
INT - 14
WIS - 9
CHA - 9

The main question though (and how I arrange the stats depends on this I suppose) is whether I want to focus on melee combat or ranged combat or remain versatile. And what feats should I pick? (as the last thread showed, I'm terribly indecisive, but at least I'm learning more about the game)

[eggs]

For first-level almost anything, the answer is ranged. A couple bad dice rolls, and even a mook will drop you with its base weapon damage.

Plus, halfling and its sub levels are very nice for ranged builds/throwers.

[OzzyKP]

Should I go with Option A then and drop strength? If I went with ranged I was thinking a light crossbow would be my best bet.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With those rolls, definitely dump Str and max out Escape Artist.

Light crossbow, point-blank shot, precise shot, rapid reload, and rapid shot in that order, by 6th level with strongheart, otherwise at 9th.

Use Strongheart Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) if possible.

[OzzyKP]

Why escape artist?

[Gwendol]

Because you have dumped strength. Escape artist then becomes important to get out of webs, grapples, etc. Naturally, you will need to also focus on things that will help you move around unseen, find what others don't and what not. Tumble will be very important for you to enable getting out of melee range in order to fire your crossbow without provoking an AoO.
High DEX helps, as does skill synergies.

[docnessuno]

While i do agree that for first level going ranged is the best option, remember that later on, managing to activate your sneak attack as a ranged character will be a real pain in the a$$ after the first round of combat. That forces you to go find a way to reliably deny your opponed dex bonus (invisibility, blink, etc).

[OzzyKP]

Darn, I can't use Strongheart.

Doc, are you saying that being ranged isn't a good long term option for me?

[docnessuno]

Both are viable, but ranged is more complex.
As a melee you can grab TFW, weapon finesse and deal a load of sneak attack damage just by flanking your opponent.
As a ranged you will (probably) deal your sneak attack damage in the first round of combat. To utilize your main combat-oriented class feature for the rest of the fight, you have to find a way to constantly flat-foot your opponents. Ther are multiple ways to achieve this, but none of them are easy to fufill as flaking is.

Another option you might want to consider is throwing weapon. It suffers all the drawback of archery and melee, but gives you access to the halfling rogue racial subtitution levels (less general SA, more SA for thrown weapons only), and can be further improved with the master thrower PRC (palm shot and weak spot are amazing)

[OzzyKP]

Do I get to sneak attack all enemies I'm flanking? I thought it just gave a +2 attack bonus. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking)

[eggs]

Yes. Check the Sneak attack ability.

[OzzyKP]

Oh, I missed that before. Hmm.. so should I not focus on either melee or ranged and stay flexible? Maybe take Improved Initiative for my first feat? Should I keep strength a dump stat? Or should I switch to Option B?

[eggs]

I strongly prefer the ranged approach, but if you want to go dual-threat, all you need is Quickdraw to turn a two-weapon fighter into a multi-purpose melee/thrower.

To really break the decision down, it's a tradeoff of "being able to full attack easily" with ranged builds and "being able to sneak attack easily" with melee builds.

With a ranged combat build, full attacks are easy: you just stand there and full attack. Getting the SA dice is not so easy, but there are a few ways to make it happen:

Have a control-oriented caster in the party. If they do what they like to do, and throw Color Sprays/Greases/Glitterdusts/Tentacles at things, just shooting at things is going to trigger SA damage.
Be unseen. This can mean sniping in the first round of combat (in case you don't get initiative) or getting invisibility (by for example, picking up a couple swordsage maneuvers, dipping monk/ninja or using a wand) or blink (through a wand or ring).
Make enemies blind/balance/grapple on your own. Eggshell grenades from Oriental Adventures are the easy way, but they're pretty high-powered. Bags of marbles and wands of grease can force balance checks, but they have action economy issues. Or you could get a wild cohort (or other, more broken, cohort feat) to grapple for you and take your SAs there.

In the melee build, it's the reverse: qualifying for sneak attack is easy (just get on the other side of something from a party beatstick or animal companion), but getting there and full attacking isn't. Here are a few ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) to get that move and full attack. Travel Devotion is usually the most complementary to the Rogue's flanking style.

Either way, at level 1-2, you're probably going to be shooting at things with a crossbow, no matter what your build is. Because if you go melee, one bad roll on your attack and one good roll on an enemy's attack can mean your character is on the ground.

EDIT:
On the specific array, I wouldn't use option B for melee unless you switch the Con and Int. If you do that, it looks like it could be workable, if not, definitely A, possibly on a Crossbow Sniper route, if you can swing the feats.

[Newcomer]

Hey, Ozzy. I'm not very experienced, but I'll pitch in what little advice I've got. I'm playing a dwarf rogue 3 in real life at the moment, but that's my first-ever campaign, so I'm no expert. See my sig for his character sheet.

Dumping Strength should be fine, since at level 3 you can take Weapon Finesse to improve your melee attack bonus. Focus a bit more on ranged attacks until then. Even in melee, if you're flanking you get that +2 bonus to hit. And if you can't flank them, well at least 1d6 isn't that much sneak attack, so back up and shoot. Then at level 3 you'll be able to make better contact in melee.

My biggest difficulty with dumping Strength was the decreased carrying capacity, because as a rogue you probably want to avoid armor check penalties. But since you'll be trying to get a lot of your damage through sneak attacks, the Strength penalty doesn't hurt as much as it would for some characters.

The problems with dumping Wisdom are that your perception skills go down, and rogues already have poor Will saves.

Improved Initiative isn't a bad feat for a rogue. You could also consider Rapid Reload or Skill Focus: whatever you like, maybe Tumble (After getting Acrobat Boots (MIC) that boosted my Tumble, I maxed out Tumble and now I can freely tumble through threatened squares without drawing attacks of opportunity. Tumble's a pretty neat skill.). However, I'd seek out others' advice for feats if you're looking for the optimal choices; I have a very poor sense of feat strength so far.

P.S. Your hit points should be at 7, 1d6 maxed + 1 for your Constitution bonus. Don't forget to add that in each level!

[OzzyKP]

So I can get the sneak attack bonus if I am hidden? Sniping might be a viable strategy for me then. As it stands I've got a +12 bonus on hide. By level 4 I'll probably be up to +20.

I see that if I want to hide again after I've sniped someone I get a -20 DC. Is that all I have to overcome? Or is there an additional base DC? It also mentioned, elsewhere for the hide skill, that I need to make a bluff check in order to hide again. Does that apply to sniping too?

Assuming I make all the rolls, would I be able to attack every turn if I am hiding, bluffing, sniping, etc every turn? Or would the effort to hide take up too much of my round? Again, I'm really new at this, I have yet to be in a single battle yet in d&d so I'm still learning all this.

What would be the best feats to be a crossbow sniper? (remember, no extra books, just the PHB)

Newcomer, my carrying capacity is dismal, but, for now at least, I can get by with limited equipment. I suppose I could give any other stuff to some of our stronger companions, or get a pack mule. One of the reasons I liked crossbows though is that the strength penalty doesn't apply to damage, it still would for melee, even with weapon finesse. I readded the extra hit point, I keep switching around my ability scores, heh, so whether my CON is 10 or 13 I gain or lose a HP.

[Newcomer]

So I can get the sneak attack bonus if I am hidden? Sniping might be a viable strategy for me then. As it stands I've got a +12 bonus on hide. By level 4 I'll probably be up to +20.

I see that if I want to hide again after I've sniped someone I get a -20 DC. Is that all I have to overcome? Or is there an additional base DC? It also mentioned, elsewhere for the hide skill, that I need to make a bluff check in order to hide again. Does that apply to sniping too?

Assuming I make all the rolls, would I be able to attack every turn if I am hiding, bluffing, sniping, etc every turn? Or would the effort to hide take up too much of my round? Again, I'm really new at this, I have yet to be in a single battle yet in d&d so I'm still learning all this.

What would be the best feats to be a crossbow sniper? (remember, no extra books, just the PHB)

I'm really curious here, too. I've seen it referenced all over the forums that you can hide during combat (sniping) and, if the enemies don't see you, you are invisible to them, forcing them to lose their DEX bonus to AC. While this makes sense, I've read over the rules for hide, invisibility, DEX bonuses, and sneak attacks over and over, and it doesn't actually say that hiding grants you "invisible" status to anyone who fails to see you. Is that just the way everyone rules it due to logic, or is it RAW by some actual rule that clarifies that? I've been trying to locate this rule before I try it in my RL game.

To answer your questions as far as I can: as I said, if you're hidden, it would appear that your enemies lose their DEX bonus to AC, which allows you to apply sneak attack damage. The -20 penalty applies to your Hide check, but the result is still opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You do not need to create a diversion to hide when sniping; they're separate uses of the Hide skill. In the case of sniping, you're staying mostly hidden, peeking out to fire a shot, and attempting to be hidden again before whoever you shot looks up to see who shot them. According to the Hide skill description, it is a move action to hide immediately after a ranged attack while sniping. Since it is also a move action to load your crossbow, you would only be able to fire every other round while sniping (standard-fire, move-hide; next turn move-reload; repeat). If you take Rapid Reload, however, you'll be able to load the crossbow as a free action, thereby firing every round (standard-fire, move-hide, free-reload; repeat). But if they spot you, you'd need a diversion to successfully hide from them again on a future turn. That Bluff check would then be a standard action.

[TuggyNE]

I see that if I want to hide again after I've sniped someone I get a -20 DC. Is that all I have to overcome? Or is there an additional base DC? It also mentioned, elsewhere for the hide skill, that I need to make a bluff check in order to hide again. Does that apply to sniping too?

Assuming I make all the rolls, would I be able to attack every turn if I am hiding, bluffing, sniping, etc every turn? Or would the effort to hide take up too much of my round? Again, I'm really new at this, I have yet to be in a single battle yet in d&d so I'm still learning all this.


You need something to hide behind: cover, concealment, or the Hide in Plain Sight ability
Sniping allows you one attack per round without the need to move
Breaking cover to attack, and then bluffing back into hiding, allows either one attack or a full attack every other turn, depending on your proximity and ability to full attack and move
If there's a place to hide within reach of your opponents, you can attack and use a move action to hide again (much like sniping)
There are certain items and feats, like camo nets and Darkstalker, that can make things easier for you in various ways


Hide is opposed by your enemies' Spot checks, so there isn't really any maximum; just get it as high as possible.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Darn, I can't use Strongheart.



Do you and your DM know it's from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting? In your OP you implied it was a houserule.

[Newcomer]

Do you and your DM know it's from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting? In your OP you implied it was a houserule.

They know where it's from. The rules are strict: PHB/SRD only. That was the idea of the game we signed up for, playing with the basics. A few small exceptions might be allowed later on, but not at character creation.

[Gavinfoxx]

Is there a control oriented mage in the party? Someone who has Grease and loves that spell?

[Newcomer]

Our sorcerer looks like he does not have Grease at this point.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They know where it's from. The rules are strict: PHB/SRD only. That was the idea of the game we signed up for, playing with the basics. A few small exceptions might be allowed later on, but not at character creation.

Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), then.

Also, Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) is considerably better than Core Rogue since you can get Hide in Plain Sight without multiclassing.

There's also Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) and Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm), which could be of considerable benefit.

[Newcomer]

PHB, DMG, MM stuff only. Core. Actually, looking back, MM isn't listed with PHB and DMG. Standard classes. No other variant races, classes, etc. Again, the point in starting this game was very basic stuff, sans splat. Which is great and all, as attested to by the number of games with variants, supplemental materials, and homebrew. I'm not trying to say those suggestions are bad ideas. But it's against the intent of this particular game. I think SRD is listed as an alternative to actually having the core books, not to open up more material. The intent seemed pretty clear.

I mean, he can try to get water halfling or something approved, but I really don't think it's a good idea.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not MM? So no Forest Gnome? No Grey Elf? No Tallfellow Halfling? No Animal Companion, no Wild Shape? No purchased mules or horses or dogs?

[Shotaro]

I suspect that by Core only the DM means if it isn't mentioned in the Player's Handbook (at first level at least) then you aren't getting it. Animal Companion and Wildshape are covered by that rule and Magic Items are given out by the DM anyway and since it starts at first level they're irrelevant (for now.)

I'm running a very similar game right now only instead of rolls my players are using the elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 before racial mods. We're using WotC written modules and, even with an inordinately large group, the players are all loving it, as am I.

As a player I'd go option B if only because it gives you a lot more versatility, go the ranged feat route but also pick up weapon finesse and weapon focus for your melee weapon of choice. As you level approach your DM about specific feats from splat books but try to build towards a prestige class if you can. (Nightsong Infiltrator from the Complete Adventurer/Scoundrel - don't recall which one - would be fun if not optimised, team sneak attack without sacrificing any sneak attack dice to get there - I think it needs ranks in jump but no more than 5 which you can easily soak as a rogue)

[Newcomer]

Well, obviously Wild Shape and animal companions will be allowed, as they are presented in the PHB. That said, I wouldn't expect to use any animals outside of the lists presented in the PHB, though some may be approved. I hope the intent of what I'm saying is clear enough. These are the rules presented at character creation. And I didn't write them. I'm just trying to clarify so that people who offer OzzyKP help know the context and don't spend time thinking out ideas that aren't going to fit this campaign (as I'm also preparing a character for it).

In this particular campaign, we are heavily encouraged to all play halflings (we're starting in an isolated halfling society). And he ruled to allow deep halfling and I'm assuming tallfellow halfling as well. I just mentioned the no MM part because I looked at the rules and saw PHB, DMG, SRD. I probably shouldn't have, as it didn't really add anything to the conversation. I apologize if I'm steering things off-track instead of helping.

That said, if anyone has core feat advice, or a different take on stat distribution, I'm sure OzzyKP would still appreciate it.

EDIT: I believe the term in these parts is swordsage'd, although my post is not entirely irrelevant. Also, I fixed a typo.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well... are you allowed SRD feats? Can you clarify if you are allowed Tallfellow?

Can you get Riding Dogs trained for war? Normal Dogs? Guard dogs? Mules? Mules with custom tricks known? Horses, Donkeys, Ponies?

Mules are fantastic tanks. Cheap, too!

If the Druid (at level four) summons Dire Bats and releases them, could someone with lots of Handle Animal train a bunch of them? Could someone have done that in the past, and the community has access to Dire Bat mounts??

How much alchemical access and alchemical items does the community have? Inexpensive Wondrous Items? Scrolls? Wands? What spell lists? Is there a Wizard, Cleric, or Adept in the community? What level spells are they capable of?

[Newcomer]

Well... are you allowed SRD feats? Can you clarify if you are allowed Tallfellow?

Can you get Riding Dogs trained for war? Normal Dogs? Guard dogs? Mules? Mules with custom tricks known? Horses, Donkeys, Ponies?

Mules are fantastic tanks. Cheap, too!

If the Druid (at level four) summons Dire Bats and releases them, could someone with lots of Handle Animal train a bunch of them? Could someone have done that in the past, and the community has access to Dire Bat mounts??

How much alchemical access and alchemical items does the community have? Inexpensive Wondrous Items? Scrolls? Wands? What spell lists? Is there a Wizard, Cleric, or Adept in the community? What level spells are they capable of?

My working assumption would be any feats outside of PHB/DMG will be on a case-by-case basis, and probably not allowed at first level. I'd also assume it's fine to pre-train your animals, as that's something the character could have done. Magic items are extremely limited in the starting area. I don't know what the exact limits are as I chose to avoid them entirely to start out.

I have no idea on anything else there. I know summoning specific creatures is in the DMG as a variant, so it would be something to propose, I guess. At any rate, you're advising a new player on a level 1 rogue. :smalltongue:

Oh, and I'm essentially still a new player, too, so while I'm trying to help, I certainly don't know everything. By now, you should have as good an idea as I do what will be allowed or not.

[Shotaro]

Well... are you allowed SRD feats? Can you clarify if you are allowed Tallfellow?

Can you get Riding Dogs trained for war? Normal Dogs? Guard dogs? Mules? Mules with custom tricks known? Horses, Donkeys, Ponies?

Mules are fantastic tanks. Cheap, too!

If the Druid (at level four) summons Dire Bats and releases them, could someone with lots of Handle Animal train a bunch of them? Could someone have done that in the past, and the community has access to Dire Bat mounts??

How much alchemical access and alchemical items does the community have? Inexpensive Wondrous Items? Scrolls? Wands? What spell lists? Is there a Wizard, Cleric, or Adept in the community? What level spells are they capable of?

Here is what we know. If it's in the Player's Handbook or the DMG it's allowed. SRD contains other sources so the SRD is allowed purely because it has the most current Errata (I'm guessing here but that would make sense with what the player has said)

The guy is first level for god's sake, by the time he's bought the equipment he needs to defend himself/survive he'll not have enough money for anything else of value really. If nothing else the PHB does a decent job of starting gear and leaves the rogue with on average 10 gold to spend.

With enough time and several handle animal checks it's not out of the realms of possibility to train any animal strong enough to be a mount (DC15 check PHB p75.) If you summon and then release a Dire Bat though if I were DMing it would require a handle animal/wild empathy check to prevent it from being/becoming hostile - also I don't see where it says you can release a summoned ally from service, it doesn't even say where they go after the spell ends.

[Newcomer]

If you summon and then release a Dire Bat though if I were DMing it would require a handle animal/wild empathy check to prevent it from being/becoming hostile - also I don't see where it says you can release a summoned ally from service, it doesn't even say where they go after the spell ends.

I missed the "release" part. I was assuming he meant summon it long enough to train it, then re-summon the same bats. Which I guess would be impossible due to time constraints, now that I think about it.

Anyway, here's the recruiting thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254734). Looks like the party's filled up, but the first two posts should give you all the information you need on what's allowed. But I think I already covered it pretty well.

[Gavinfoxx]

By summon, in this context, I mean the 24 hour calling ritual for animal companions. That doesn't require any DMG variant. Sorry for not being clear! Fyi, animals have to be Medium or bigger to be mounts for halflings.

[Newcomer]

By summon, in this context, I mean the 24 hour calling ritual for animal companions. That doesn't require any DMG variant. Sorry for not being clear! Fyi, animals have to be Medium or bigger to be mounts for halflings.

Ah, now that's a very interesting thought. I'm not sure whether that would be disallowed, but if so, it wouldn't be a source issue so much as a feasibility/spirit of the rules issue. I guess it's the DM's choice whether a released companion would be willing to serve the group (especially with a non-domesticated choice of animal), and which of the druid benefits it could keep. That's beyond me, but thanks for clarifying!

[gorfnab]

Some guides that may be of use to you
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

[OzzyKP]

I'll check out those sneak attack guides, definitely looks useful.

I'm still not at all sure what feat to get. I mean, my main intention with this character is to be the skill monkey and I hope to be more use to the party outside of combat then in it, but I don't want to be useless in combat either.

And yea, as Newcomer said, only stuff from the PHB for this game.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well PHB only rogues are generally most powerful as alchemical fire throwers, for the most part. PROVIDED they are supported by a Conjurer or a Sorcerer with a love affair with Grease.

Stuff like Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot work really well with throwing alchemist's fire. You are generally always making flat footed touch attacks, so hitting -- despite various penalties -- is pretty easy.

[OzzyKP]

Hmm, I dunno about being a splash weapon thrower, it'd just end up hurting my melee allies.

[OzzyKP]

Well... are you allowed SRD feats? Can you clarify if you are allowed Tallfellow?

I asked about being a Tallfellow or Water Halfling, no response yet. I assume that since Deep Halfling was allowed that Tallfellow would be too (which is why I thought I could get Strongheart, didn't realize it was different from Deep/Tall). But Water Halfling might be more of a stretch (though we do all start on islands!).

I'm totally open to multi-classing also. Not sure what would work best for me (though I still need to figure out if I'm going to focus on melee or ranged, heh), but it looks like I'll have a good variety of party members to train me (barbarian, ranger, sorcerer, bard, druid).

[eggs]

Vial-throwing isn't something you need to dedicate a build toward. Just grabbing Quickdraw and stocking a couple acid vials and holy waters will make it an option for those times when enemies have too high of armor or DR for your normal attack routines.

[OzzyKP]

That seems like a good idea then.



The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

The trouble with this guide is most of its recommendations are from outside of the PHB(like most rogue guides I've seen), so its of limited use for me.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If it's core and you're doing Halfling, be a Deep Halfling for the darkvision. This is very useful/important to a rogue. Wild Elf or Wood Elf are also decent core rogue races.

Ignore those rules of the game articles on sneak attack, but even if you read them, MAKE SURE your DM does not. One of them dips into the sage's moronically conceived houserule sugggestions, and one of them is to allow creatures to ignore being flanked. There are not enough swear words in the English language to emphasize how stupid that is and how badly it screws over the rogue. Don't give your DM the idea.

I would go ranged and just enter melee when you are accosted by monsters or have no other real choice. It's too deadly for a core rogue to survive in for any prolonged period. In any case, make sure you get tumble bonus to at least +14 as soon as you can. So, go for option A, but I'd switch the Str and Cha numbers (Str 9, Cha 7). Ranged sneak attack will be tough. Try to win initiative and full attack sneak attack things to death before they can act. Surprise rounds from hiding can also help.

Eventually, around level 10, you can afford a ring of blinking. Blinking will allow you to sneak attack with impunity, and since the arrows will cease being affected as soon as they leave your person, you don't have to deal with the 20% "sorry, your projectile is in another plane" issue.

[OzzyKP]

Under option A the only reason strength is at 7 is because of the -2 penalty for being a halfling. I started out with two 9's, one of which went to charisma and the other to strength (which then became a 7).

And..... SCORE he allowed both Tallfellow AND Water Halfling. +2 Constitution for me! :) Oh, I suppose I can't have both at the same time. Hmmm. Which is best? I don't think I want to go with Deep Halfling.


Edit: Hmm, I like the +2 on Search and Spot that Tallfellow gets, and especially like the automatic search checks for traps. But an extra 2 in Constitution would give me a lot of flexibility with my stats.

I could do either Improved Option A:

STR - 7
DEX - 19
CON - 15
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 9

Improved Option B:

STR - 11
DEX - 19
CON - 12
INT - 14
WIS - 9
CHA - 9

Option C:

STR - 11
DEX - 19
CON - 11
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 9

Option D:

STR - 8
DEX - 19
CON - 11
INT - 14
WIS - 13
CHA - 9

Or Option E: (definitely getting carried away now)

STR - 8
DEX - 19
CON - 15
INT - 14
WIS - 9
CHA - 9

Edit 2: I'm thinking Improved B might be my best bet. It lets me stay flexible. Of the skills I'll be using, Wisdom only affects Listen & Spot, and regardless of which Halfling type I take I get a +2 racial bonus to Listen. Is it worth giving up 1 rank in Listen & Spot for 1 extra Hit Point? I suppose it is also a question of the impact on my saves too.. Fortitude vs. Will, hmm..

[Newcomer]

Congrats on getting water halfling approved; now I feel silly for being so sure it wouldn't be. :smallredface:

Improved B/C look good. My instinct is C to minimize penalties, but that's just my instinct. You should be good either way.

[OzzyKP]

I didn't think I'd get it either, and under normal circumstances I probably wouldn't have, but considering we are starting on a group of islands it fits too well for the DM to pass up. Yay!

The -2 strength penalty is one of the main reasons I was planning to go for crossbows over regular bows, so now (with Improved Option B) that I've wiped out that penalty I think I'll go for regular bows. Considering how few feats I have it saves me the trouble of picking that rapid reload feat.

Short bow to start and then at some point I think I'll take two levels of Ranger (ready to train me Mr. Barrowfoot?) so I can get longbows (and a combat style).

So right now I'm thinking I'll pick up Point Blank Shot to start with. Still not sure whether I'll focus entirely on archery or pick up two weapon fighting at some point. Dipping into ranger will get me an extra feat (either rapid shot or TWF), so I'll decide which way to go at that point. I'll have a better sense of the combat system and the campaign by then.

[Newcomer]

You might consider taking a level or two of fighter instead. You'll get the martial weapon proficiency, BAB, a feat at level 1 and another at level 2 (instead of combat style) and a d10 hit die. Depending on if you care about the other ranger features (skills, tracking).

It's funny to think of Ever training anybody, with his 6 INT, but he can show you around a longbow. :smalltongue:

[OzzyKP]

I was considering that. Heck, maybe I'll pick up two of each at some point. But my main focus with this character is going to be skills, so going fighter for two levels will kill that. Ranger gets the same BAB, better saves, a favored enemy (humans perhaps...), and only two less skill points then rogue.

And I think I'll start out with Crossbow afterall, at this early stage I think it'll end up being better then a Shortbow. Then I'll switch to Longbow later.

[OzzyKP]

I have a question about rapid shot, manyshot, etc. Let's say I have both of them and I have a BAB of +6/+1. How many attacks do I get?

So I start out with two attacks from my BAB, right? Then with rapid shot I get two more? Or one more? And with manyshot does that lead to 8 total attacks? 2 from BAB, 2 from rapid shot and 2 arrows on each of those attacks for a total of 8? Would I apply sneak attack damage to all of those attacks?

:smallconfused:

[eggs]

I have a question about rapid shot, manyshot, etc. Let's say I have both of them and I have a BAB of +6/+1. How many attacks do I get?
Manyshot doesn't work on a full attack action, so it doesn't come into play here.

With that BA and rapid shot, you'd make 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1 as a full round action. You apply sneak attack on every one of those attacks, provided the target is denied its dexterity bonus to AC.

-OR-

You can make one attack with two arrows at +2 with manyshot as a standard action. If the attack hits and the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, sneak attack dice are applied once.

[OzzyKP]

Manyshot doesn't work on a full attack action, so it doesn't come into play here.

With that BA and rapid shot, you'd make 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1 as a full round action. You apply sneak attack on every one of those attacks, provided the target is denied its dexterity bonus to AC.

-OR-

You can make one attack with two arrows at +2 with manyshot as a standard action. If the attack hits and the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, sneak attack dice are applied once.

Huh, so manyshot doesn't seem all that great at all. Is it only useful in situations where you can't make a full round attack?

[TuggyNE]

Huh, so manyshot doesn't seem all that great at all. Is it only useful in situations where you can't make a full round attack?

Yeah. It's not designed to multiply your total shots/round; for that you'd need a splitting (+3) weapon, or the arrowsplit spell (Sor/Wiz 2?).

[OzzyKP]

By the same token, how does two-weapon fighting work with a high BAB. With that same example, a +6/+1 BAB and TWF do I get three attacks or four? And does sneak attack damage apply to all of them?

[eggs]

If you're two-weapon fighting with the TWF feat, a light offhand weapon and +6/+1 BA, you get three attacks at +4/+4/-1 as a full-round action or one attack at +6 as a standard action. Each one of those gets sneak attack dice if you're flanking or hitting a target denied its dex bonus.

If you also have the Improved TWF feat, that turns to +4/+4/-1/-1 on a full-round action, but otherwise doesn't change.

[Newcomer]

By the same token, how does two-weapon fighting work with a high BAB. With that same example, a +6/+1 BAB and TWF do I get three attacks or four? And does sneak attack damage apply to all of them?

You get three attacks, 2 with your primary hand and one with your off hand.

So, without any feats, assuming a light weapon in your off hand, that would be +2/-3 with your primary hand and -2 (I think.. I might be wrong with that part) with your off hand. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a light weapon in your off hand, it becomes +4/-1 and +4 (again, I could be misinterpreting the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting)).

You only get a second attack with the off hand by taking Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting gives you a third off hand attack.

EDIT: eggs beat me to it, and I forgot to mention the sneak attack.

[OzzyKP]

Awesome, thanks. :smallsmile:

[OzzyKP]

And wow, I just took a look at the Rogue class in Pathfinder... whew, what an improvement. Rogue talents look awesome! And just the fact that listen/spot/search is combined into perception, hide/move silently is combined into stealth, and tumble/balance/jump get combined into acrobatics saves a HUGE amount of skill points. Right now for my build I start with an awesome 40 skill points but HALF of them are sunk into skills I could max out with just 12 skill points under Pathfinder. Whew, that makes a huge difference. And honestly it makes a hell of a lot of common sense.

[Gavinfoxx]

And wow, I just took a look at the Rogue class in Pathfinder... whew, what an improvement.

The problem is, there are a TON of Stealth Nerfs to the Rogue in Pathfinder... and they aren't generally in the class itself. They are elsewhere, in various rules relating to skills, sneak attacks, other classes, expected skills of monsters, etc. etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, PF rogue is weaker than 3E rogue.

- Balancing doesn't make foes flatfooted, at least no out of their turns.
- Blinking doesn't make foes flatfooted
- Tumble DCs are impossibly hard, making moving into a flank require much more time through judicious use of coordinated 5 ft steps or "taking the long way around", if those are even options for the given set up
- Can no longer SA with splash weapons!

And, not combat related, but...

- PF completely obliterated the advantage of class skills. Now everyone can have max ranks and at the same cost. Only advantage of "class skill" is a +3 bonus. But you can just dip a class 1 level to get that benefit. And there's a TON of traits to make skills class skills AND give a +1 trait bonus as well.
- Trapfinding now does only 1 thing: disabling magical traps. In PF *anyone* can find magical traps and mundane traps over DC 20 and *anyone* can disable *any* non-magical trap. Also, detect magic is now at-will, so any caster can find magical traps even better than the rogue. Ok, trapfinding also gives a small bonus, but that's largely offset by search now being a wisdom (about #...4-5 on rogue's needs list) skill and tied in w/ spot AND listen. This means every character ever will have amazing search checks, because you'd have to be an idiot not to max the hell out of that skill! So trapfinding bonus largely just makes up for the high wis casters having the edge on you already.

Those two things utterly DESTROY the rogue's niches. So you're left with a squishy low accuracy slightly MAD ineffective combatant and a "master of none" skill guy. Other than dex-based skills (and only if no archers or such are in the group), I have never seen a rogue capable of being better at any one given skill in PF than a more specialized, less MAD character. Except when said character intentionally opts not to put ranks in X skill to avoid upstaging the rogue at it.

[Gavinfoxx]

(3.5e, not PF)

Let's say you have:

+6/+1 BAB

Rapid Shot
Quick Draw
Two Weapon Fighting
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

And a whooolleee lot of flasks of holy water / alchemist's fire / etc.

I believe you could, as long as you don't move, make:

2 from bab, 1 from two weapon fighting, 1 from rapid shot = 4 throwing attacks. Yes, you take penalties, but against balancing foes, that's still flat footed touch attacks.

[Beastsoul1]

Hello. With those rolls, ranged. At first level with D6 hit dice, a hobbo could knock u out with a little luck in one hit. I know you said core only, but try to let your DM let you take Crossbow Sniper in PHBII. It lets you apply half your DEX bonus to damage with crossbows. Though, once you get to higher levels and take two weapon fighting feats, you may find that around levels 3-5, that u make a pretty effective melee flanker with all that sneak attack, and that ranged was a wasted effort. My Advice: throw daggers from 30ft away till 3 level, pick up two weapon fighting and weapon finesse and go sneak attack a couple things to death along with ur fighter buddie.

[ericgrau]

Go dex/con, dumping str/cha.

Ranged stays viable at high levels if you beg the party caster for greater invisibility. Higher than that you buy yourself a ring of blinking. At low levels get tagged with invisibility and/or sneak up to at least get the extra surprise round. Grease and glitterdust also make foes flat-footed, and grease even works when the foe makes his save or stands back up. Basically make friends with the mage.

At all levels your round 1 + surprise round sneak attacks add up to a lot of hits. You get a single + full attack with a +1 to hit & dmg from PBS. With TWF the d6 rogue is lucky to even get his first full attack before getting knocked out. For the second he's even more likely to go unconscious, or to need to move to engage a new foe or fix the flank. Plus a round 1 full attack against any target is better than a round 2 full attack against limited targets for preventing enemy attacks. So I'd take range over TWF at all levels.

If you can't get help from the party mage then I'd delay precise shot until you can get a better sneak attack trigger. Until then round 1 matters more (before allies are in melee) and you should focus on getting that extra rapid shot attack instead. You might consider fighter levels for feats because otherwise getting to rapid shot will be painfully slow. Something like rogue 1 / fighter 2 / rogue X.

Carry 1-3 oils of magic stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicStone.htm) to be used only when you get a buffing round within 15 feet of enemies or within 30 feet of undead. As a halfling you get a +1 to hit with thrown weapons. If you expect demons/devils you might also carry oil of bless weapon. At mid levels carry some screaming bolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#screamingBolt) for fights against large number of enemies. That way it will tag a lot of them plus large numbers means they're mooks meaning (a) they have low saves and (b) -2 to their already low stats will be painful.

Skillmonkeys tend to get a hard life. Direct your DM here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/traps.htm) (or the sections of the DMG with the same titles) to get more encounters that suit you. For that matter the whole Surroundings, Weather & Environment (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/wildernessWeatherEnvironment.htm) section makes a nice campaign world, though that's not as specific to you. The PHB (not the SRD) also has nice examples on when taking a 10 or 20 on skill checks is ok so you don't get shafted there. Make sure you yourself know the skill rules well.

[OzzyKP]

I decided to go with Improved Option B for stats. I figured that dumping strength would push me towards the more feat intensive crossbows over regular bows, so I avoided the strength penalties with those stats and am generally balanced overall (I think).

I got precision strike for my feat and I think I'll pick up two levels of Ranger at some point. That'll get me longbow proficiency, a hit of only 2 skills/level, a favored enemy (which could be quite useful in this campaign), and at level two I get rapid shot.

I'm just not sure when to get those ranger levels.