Advice, 3.5 Core lv 11 Human Wiz.

[Surge4tw]

Heya guys! So I'm looking for a lil advice on a build for a Human, Wizard, but core 3.5 only.

Probably prestige into archmage/loremaster.

Jumping into a campaign that just lost there arcane support so I'm hoping to fill the roll. And I'm probably taking higher con over dex in this build, because I know its close quarters and a lot of damage thrown around.

Thanks again in advance! :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

There are three things you're going to have to choose in this build: levels, feats, and spells. I've spoilered Levels and Feats (because giant wall o'text).

Level Choice
Those two PrCs are the go-tos for Core spellcaster, but the feat requirements are very steep. It's not possible to get Archmage5/Loremaster10 without going into Epic. The fastest you can qualify for either class is after you take 7 levels of Wizard, so you only have 13 levels to play around with. You have to choose between an extra Spell Secret and True Lore, or two High Arcana. (Or split the difference between them).

You know for certain that you're going to get at least three levels of Archmage, so best to pick those High Arcana to see what's left. I'd recommend Mastery of Shaping (Burst, Spread, or both), Mastery of Elements, and Arcane Reach. Interesting tidbit on Mastery of Shaping ... "Burst" covers most of the "Cone" shapes, including Cone of Cold (a "cone-shaped burst").

Arcane Fire is rubbish. Mastery of Counterspelling ... I've never personally witnessed a Counterspell used in a campaign. If you're a wizard, you rain down arcane doom, you don't play defense. Spell Power ... meh. Spell-Like Ability: now this one can be worth it, if you pick the right high-level spell. If you're using a particular spell (level 6 or more) regularly at least twice a day, it's worth it. If you're not, it's not.

So, four useful High Arcana (including Shaping twice), and one Maybe. A spell-like ability twice a day, versus (probably) an extra level-1 or 2 spell? Not much of a contest, IMO. Take all 5 levels of Archmage.

Feat Choice
If you want to get the most out of the classes, at the earliest entry, your feat choices are going to be down to which metamagic or item creation feats you take, and which spell focus feats you take. You can qualify for Loremaster first; doing so would probably be smart.

Personally, I've found that most Core-only metamagic feats aren't that terrific. Metamagic gets really nasty outside of Core, where reducers are available. A big exception is Extend Spell. Quicken Spell is nice, but really only becomes useful when you're higher level. You're better off putting off Quicken until after you qualify for your PrCs. There are some situational feats that will work for you, like Silent Spell, if you know you're going to be sneaking around a lot. So I'd focus on Item Creation for your Loremaster prereqs. You get Scribe Scroll free. Craft Wondrous is the most useful at the level you can get it, so I'd recommend that one.

You'll get one additional feat from the Loremaster secret Applicable Knowledge. Take it as soon as you can. At that point, your build is full of most of the general use feats. Pick something that you seem to be lacking, whether it's Improved Initiative or another Metamagic or Item Creation.

Spell Choice is more complicated than I have time to get into, and there are lots of guides for best spells. I'd recommend specializing in Divination and banning Enchantment. Divination is thematic to Loremaster, and Core Enchantment is best used in more of a trickster-oriented character.

So, build recommendation: Wiz7/Loremaster5/Archmage5, then three more levels of Loremaster for a final tally of Wizard7/Loremaster8/Archmage5.

For Feats (prereq feats asterisked):
1 *Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
1 *Scribe Scroll (Bonus Wizard) - Item Creation
1 *Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana) (Bonus human feat)
3 *Craft Wondrous Item - Item Creation
5 *Extend Spell (Bonus Wizard) Metamagic
6 *Spell Focus (Evocation)
9 *Spell Focus (Illusion)
12 Quicken Spell
15 Spell Penetration
18 Greater Spell Penetration
Floating Feat from Secret: Applicable Knowledge.

[Eldariel]

Red Wizard of Thay is fairly incredible if you are allowed to take it. Other than that, yeah, Wizard 7/Loremaster 4 is what I'd be looking at right now. Go into Archmage ASAP of course. It's Core so you definitely want Greater Spell Penetration by now; lots of things have SR and many of your more awesome spells offer SR.

Improved Familiar is in the DMG; I'd definitely look at that since Improved Familiar-list has a lot of good options; Pseudodragons, Quasits, Imps, the like. The spell-likes and unique abilities are just really convenient and then they can Share Spell with Polymorphs and the like, you can have all your defense magic affect them and they have their own types for shapeshifting. They can also deliver Touch Spells and so on.


Leadership for an apprentice or something if you feel so inclined, too. It's a great feat, so... If you want to Craft, you could have your apprentice take the Craft-feats. Or maybe make it a Cleric of Boccob (the God of Magic) who's your aide or something to cover spells you don't personally have access to.

At this point I'd look at:
Gray Elf [Monster Manual] Wizard 7/Loremaster 4
1. Spell Focus: Conjuration (Conjuration covers all the big saves and has a lot of good save-or-X spells so it's the best school for Spell Focus)
Bonus (1). Scribe Scroll
3. Skill Focus: Knowledge (for Loremaster)
Bonus (5). Quicken Spell
6. Leadership/Extend Spell/Spell Penetration
9. Improved Familiar
Applicable Knowledge. Greater Spell Penetration/Spell Focus/Skill Focus (need prerequisites for Archmage by level 14)

Place your highest ability score in Int, second & third highest in Dex & Con (14 Con would be awesome tho you'll probably have to make do with less; 16 Dex is ideal & obviously you'd want to start with 20 Int and put all level-ups there).

The rest is up to you; Charisma has utility in Planar Binding & Charm/Dominate-spells and social skills, Wisdom has utility for Will-saves & perception skills, Strength governs your carrying capacity.


You could focus on Conjuration or Transmutation (it's possible to ban two out of Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy and be okay; Evocation loses Contingency, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Wall of Force as big ones for now, Enchantment loses Charm Monster, Dominate Person & Heroism and Necromancy loses Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life, Enervation and Animate Dead) or go Generalist.

Either way, you have a lot of good spells so go from there.

[ahenobarbi]

Hello.
Could you answer some questions:
- Did you play d&d before?
- Did you play d&d wizard before?
- What level are you starting?

I would play conjuration specialist and ban evocation and enchantment.
I think it's good to specialize because this gives you more spells of your highest level (and some schools aren't that good).
I think it's good to specialize in conjuration because there are good spells in every level of that school (so you will use that extra slot).
I think it's ok to ban evocation because it has mostly spells that deal damage (and as wizard you will have better things to do than that). Also you can access good evocation spells with Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) and Greater Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocationGreater.htm).
I think it's ok to ban enchantment because there are a lot of things that are immune to enchantment spells.

Loremaster and Archmage are good prestige classes.

[ahenobarbi]

One more question: what do you want to do?

As wizard you can do virtually anything, but you should choose your focus. You can:


Control battlefield - you modify battlefield to make it favorable for your allies. For example if fighting many enemies you put obstacles so your allies can take them one at time. When fighting archers you block archery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm). When fighting only melee you slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) them (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm) down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) so your allies can prepare and/or kill them from safe distance.
Buff your allies - you make your (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) allies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm) stronger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm). So they can kill enemy faster, safer, more efficiently.
Debuff your enemies - you make
your (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm)
enemies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm)
weaker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slow.htm). So your allies can kill them faster, safer, more efficiently.
Help out of battle - you probably will do it, This covers thing like shrinking big things you want to transport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm), quickly moving you and your allies around (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) or chilling beer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm).
Deal damage your self - this can be fun but is weak, compared to other things you can do.

[ahenobarbi]

Some more thoughts. I'd play human (you need that extra feat to qualify for prestige classes as fast as possible). I'd definitely put highest stat in intelligence. After that dexterity, condition, charisma, wisdom, strength.

Dexterity is more important than condition because you will be squishy anyway, so you need to protect yourself by not letting others hit you. Dexterity helps with that a bit. But more importantly it helps you defeat of enemies faster (and defeated enemies shouldn't be able to hurt you at all).

[Telonius]

At this point I'd look at:
Gray Elf [Monster Manual] Wizard 7/Loremaster 4
1. Spell Focus: Conjuration (Conjuration covers all the big saves and has a lot of good save-or-X spells so it's the best school for Spell Focus)
Bonus (1). Scribe Scroll
3. Skill Focus: Knowledge (for Loremaster)
Bonus (5). Quicken Spell
6. Leadership/Extend Spell/Spell Penetration


He'd need the 6th-level feat to be Extend Spell to qualify for Loremaster at 8.

[Surge4tw]

First off, thank you all for the help. And to answer the questions.
Yes I have, but we never did anything past just basis for a while. Mainly just avg campaigns for fun etc, but now were expanding after years. Yes I have played a wizard, but usually only as aide to a Rogue or low level in spur of the moment campaigns.

[Eldariel]

He'd need the 6th-level feat to be Extend Spell to qualify for Loremaster at 8.

Oh yeah, true, it requires 3, not 2. Ah well, that solves that. I'd definitely still go Gray Elf. I guess your solution of postponing the Penetration feats is ultimately the only way to go if wanting to fit in Leadership/Improved Familiar in particular. Note, I was writing my post when you posted so I wasn't aware of your post at that time, hence some overlap.

[Surge4tw]

What about gear, and items and such, anything in specific?

[ericgrau]

Loremaster is a well balanced PrC IMO. By which I mean if you want what it gives then take it but if you want something else then take more wizard levels, put your feats into something else and don't feel obligated to PrC. Archmage OTOH is almost strictly better than wizard levels. You pay 1 feat that actually matters and in core you often want the other feats & skills anyway.

Try to search past threads for good spells to take. One common mistake though is to pimp out low level spells with the flashiest available. Foes will make their saves and you can't cast 30 combat spells a day so low levels are better used out of combat for things like hour/level buffs (mage armor, false life greater magic weapon), 10 min/level buffs (alter self, flame arrow, heroism, magic circle against evil, stoneskin) and between combat tricks like invisibility, shrink item (rotate castings to carry some huge items all the time), unseen servant, or alarm if you camp every night.

Gear
A lesser rod of extend spell or two is great for low level buffs, and saves you a feat. For utility spells that aren't useful daily don't prepare them but instead get tons and tons of low level scrolls. 1-3 of each one you like, but with some you may want enough to tag the whole party once or twice. Spider climb is perhaps my favorite. It would take 40+ spell slots to prepare them all and you might only need each one once in a whole campaign anyway. Consider & use liberally a wand of invisibility for whole party infiltration since it's easy to prepare 1 copy, but not 4+ copies. Also has interesting uses on doors and other objects.

A circlet of intelligence is standard of course. You might also want backup spellbooks. It's a little early but if you can squeeze it in a staff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs) (market price = double creation cost gp) with your favorite spammable spells then more spells is always extremely handy. Wall of force for example: even if you prepare a copy as well it's perhaps the best core spell and using it for multiple rounds doesn't hurt. Don't worry about running out of the 50 staff charges. Hasn't happened to me yet and in general D&D's short combats mean expendables tend to be cheaper than permanent items even in the long run. If you frequently need an unusual hour/level first level spell you might add level 1 pearl(s) of power (infrequently => scroll it).

Finally get some +1 or maybe +2 items of touch AC: ring of protection, dusty rose prism ioun stone. And a cloak of resistance. You might also look into the standard misc. items for any class like marvelous pigments or an adamantine dagger (breaks almost anything given a few minutes) or whatever cool classics you like. Browse wondrous items and rings for the cheap stuff. And a heward's handy haversack to carry & retrieve all your toys of course.

In short the best gear to get is spells, spells and more spells.

[Telonius]

Gear would mostly depend on how much gold you have to spend, and how much of that you're planning on spending for additional spells. In general, it's better to have a bunch of small bonuses than one big one.

If you'll have standard wealth by level, and only have Core as a resource, I'd suggest...

Heward's Handy Haversack (everybody should have one, seriously...) - 2000gp
Ring of Protection +1 (deflection) - 2000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (natural) - 2000gp
Headband of Intellect +2 - 4000gp
Cloak of Resistance +2 - 4000gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2 - 4000gp
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insight to AC) - 5000gp
Pearl of Power lvl 2 - 4000gp
Vest of Escape 5200gp
Boccob's Blessed Book 12500gp
+1 medium fortification Mithral Shirt 10100 gp

That would get you, on net, +9 AC
(+1 natural +1 dex +1 insight + 1 deflection +4 chain shirt +1 magic), a 75% chance to negate Sneak and Power Attacks, +1 to initiative (from dexterity), +6 on Escape Artist checks (nothing ruins a Wizard's day like being Grappled), +1 DC to your spells, (likely) some extra spells form higher Int, the ability to regain a level-2 spell you've just cast, and a major discount on spellbook costs.

With that set of equipment, you still have 11,000gp to spend on spells; should be plenty, especially with your Blessed Book. Spells will cost 50gp * Spell Level to copy into your Blessed Book. With the leftovers, get any Scrolls or Wands you might need. Wands for passive things you think you'll use all the time (Resist Energy, for example); scrolls for the spells that don't come up often, but you'll really miss it if you don't happen to have it prepared that day (Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment, or possibly Tongues would fit in here). Then, an Everburning Torch, a bunch of alchemical items, Universal Solvent, and Sovereign Glue (in that order).

[Eldariel]

Gear would mostly depend on how much gold you have to spend, and how much of that you're planning on spending for additional spells. In general, it's better to have a bunch of small bonuses than one big one.

If you'll have standard wealth by level, and only have Core as a resource, I'd suggest...

Heward's Handy Haversack (everybody should have one, seriously...) - 2000gp
Ring of Protection +1 (deflection) - 2000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (natural) - 2000gp
Headband of Intellect +2 - 4000gp
Cloak of Resistance +2 - 4000gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2 - 4000gp
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insight to AC) - 5000gp
Pearl of Power lvl 2 - 4000gp
Vest of Escape 5200gp
Boccob's Blessed Book 12500gp
+1 medium fortification Mithral Shirt 10100 gp

That would get you, on net, +9 AC
(+1 natural +1 dex +1 insight + 1 deflection +4 chain shirt +1 magic), a 75% chance to negate Sneak and Power Attacks, +1 to initiative (from dexterity), +6 on Escape Artist checks (nothing ruins a Wizard's day like being Grappled), +1 DC to your spells, (likely) some extra spells form higher Int, the ability to regain a level-2 spell you've just cast, and a major discount on spellbook costs.

With that set of equipment, you still have 11,000gp to spend on spells; should be plenty, especially with your Blessed Book. Spells will cost 50gp * Spell Level to copy into your Blessed Book. With the leftovers, get any Scrolls or Wands you might need. Wands for passive things you think you'll use all the time (Resist Energy, for example); scrolls for the spells that don't come up often, but you'll really miss it if you don't happen to have it prepared that day (Stone to Flesh, Break Enchantment, or possibly Tongues would fit in here). Then, an Everburning Torch, a bunch of alchemical items, Universal Solvent, and Sovereign Glue (in that order).

I'd almost certainly not bother with the AC itemization personally; you have other ways to make yourself an undesirable target and that gold could be used on Lesser Metamagic Rods, +4 Int Headband & Orange Prism Ioun Stone instead. Chain Shirt overlaps with Mage Armor so it's wasted & Dusty Rose Prism and Amulet of Natural Armor consume large amounts of wealth. Ring of Freedom of Movement would be a fairly high priority pickup but not viable quite yet.

Most of the problems such as grappling and attacks can be significantly mitigated via. the use of magic anyways (and Deflection bonuses up to +2 can be gained via. Protection from Alignment). As a Wizard, your primary source of numbers should be spells and items should make your spells stronger and cover whatever your spells can't (Con, Dex & Int are all valuable stats to boost).


If you do have the opportunity to craft items before the game starts, do pick up Craft Wondrous Items on yourself or your Cohort (if you get Leadership) and craft all the stuff you can before the game starts. It's definitely worth it; allows you to get +6 Int Headband, Orange Prism Ioun Stone and other goodies (Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone is also a worthwhile buy for many, many unforeseen events).

[Telonius]

Under most circumstances I'd go with Eldariel's suggestions, but the OP's worried enough about damage that he's taking Con over Dex. To me, that says, "DM likes to use lots of Power Attack and/or lots of enemies." Miss chance items are a little out of his budget at the moment, so he's either going to need to get it via spells, or give at least a little thought to AC.

If I'm off-base about that, absolutely ditch the armor.

[ericgrau]

I'd always take con over dex. Not that the dex AC and ranged attack bonus doesn't help, but hp helps more.

For non-touch AC at most I might get a +1 amulet of natural armor. 5-6% (1 out of 17 to 1 out of 19, based on some random monsters I looked up) for 2000 gp isn't horrible. Isn't great though and I really wouldn't spend more. Besides mage armor you might also alter self into a troglodyte and use magic circle against evil. Protection from X is really worthless as a buff at your level btw. There are better min/level options. 10 min/level buffs like the magic circle OTOH can be cast at the dungeon entrance. I would still keep a couple scrolls of PfE to respond to dominate/charm in the wilderness where the 10 min/level circle doesn't last long enough, but I wouldn't ever bother casting it before a fight. 1 or 2 scrolls of shield is also quite powerful for those very rare times when you get 5 buffing rounds.

For touch AC a +1 is more worth it but even the +2 and ioun stone is borderline; I'd make those lower priority. And if you do a lot of dungeons and not wilderness then magic circle replaces the ring. The big question there is whether or not you buy one of the hugely expensive fancy items suggested so far. If not then you'll have a lot of gold leftover without much to spend it on. You might save some of it for a huge item when you get richer later, but you might as well spend a little now for a little benefit.

Since you expect a lot of close quarters I'd strongly suggest false life, preferably empowered false life if you have the feat. Hopefully it also means you're in a dungeon and can cast all kinds of 10 min/level buffs, defensive and offensive. Perhaps even blow some gold into diamond dust to stoneskin yourself if it's really bad. DR 10/adamantine means a 250 gp per dungeon rent to say "squishy mage problem solved". With a level 11 budget it's well worth the gold to still be in the fight doing something useful vs. leaving the party mageless as you die, flee, teleport away or otherwise blow your time casting something to save your life. I'd also prepare mirror image or displacement. I wouldn't actually cast it unless it looks like trouble though; there are better options like haste. That's why all the long duration buffs are so great; they don't get in the way of actually contributing.

[Eldariel]

Protection from X is really worthless as a buff at your level btw. There are better min/level options.

PfE is still a low cost "just in case"-spell you can use (it's still only a level 1 slot). Cast it if you're doing a quick delve with a chance of encounter, but no certainty; for instance before entering negotiations or the like. Tho of course, Magic Circle is largely just better. Still, 10 minutes (the duration of PfE on these levels) is more than enough for some diplomatic encounters or boss fights.

But yeah, it's not so much PfE vs. other 1 min/level spells as PfE vs. other level 1 slots you might use in situation that'll be concluded within 1 min/level.