Engineers in current mmorpgs?

[AquaBlade]

Are engineers a new addition? I've been seeing more of them lately? Like how they've been recently implemented into games like guild wars 2. Or the engineer in guild wars 2 which wasn't in the first game. How come there's been more of them lately?
And how do they fit in with the traditional archetypes? Warriors, rogues, clerics, and mages. I put the ranger into the rogue archetype if you were wondering where that went.

[Madfellow]

It depends on the system, and it doesn't always directly relate. In D&D, the artificer is a supporting character because they make magic items that boost the party, but they can also make and use wands and staffs that make them into a blaster or magic swords and armor that make them awesome fighters, so they're very versatile.

In a game like Team Fortress 2, on the other hand, the engineer builds turrets to kill the enemy and guard the base. There is no D&D class that does that (usually). A rogue or ranger can specialize in making traps and set them up to snare baddies in for the party to peck at, but that's a pretty rare occurrence. The artificer can do the same thing, and I'm pretty sure the wizard have some spells that can do stuff like lay traps and summon monsters, but nothing exactly like what the engineer does in TF2.

In the Mass Effect series, engineers are most like clerics. They have a number of abilities that are designed to control the battlefield and disable specific types of enemies.

In Shadowrun, engineers can build robotic drones, making them like a pet master, or can specialize more in electronics and hacking, which doesn't have a direct analogue in D&D because computers don't exist in D&D, not even in Eberron.

[Snowbluff]

hehe... "muhmorpugger"

In WoW, engineering was a profession. You got extra things like bombs, rocket launchers, and other trinkets to mess with.

[AquaBlade]

It depends on the system, and it doesn't always directly relate. In D&D, the artificer is a supporting character because they make magic items that boost the party, but they can also make and use wands and staffs that make them into a blaster or magic swords and armor that make them awesome fighters, so they're very versatile.

In a game like Team Fortress 2, on the other hand, the engineer builds turrets to kill the enemy and guard the base. There is no D&D class that does that (usually). A rogue or ranger can specialize in making traps and set them up to snare baddies in for the party to peck at, but that's a pretty rare occurrence. The artificer can do the same thing, and I'm pretty sure the wizard have some spells that can do stuff like lay traps and summon monsters, but nothing exactly like what the engineer does in TF2.

In the Mass Effect series, engineers are most like clerics. They have a number of abilities that are designed to control the battlefield and disable specific types of enemies.

In Shadowrun, engineers can build robotic drones, making them like a pet master, or can specialize more in electronics and hacking, which doesn't have a direct analogue in D&D because computers don't exist in D&D, not even in Eberron.

Does the artificer relate more to the mage class?
so when would the engineer relate to the rogue/warrior classes in mmorpgs?
Like the engineer in battlefield 3 and in maplestory and in dragon nest? Which class would each of them relate to?
As for the Mass Effect engineer, from what I can tell, is like a hybrid rogue/healer with the light armor, debuffs, healing skills, pistol main weapon, mines and uses deception via hacking to destroy enemies. That's what I see.

I mean, the smart hero in D&D, does that always relate to the mage? How many kinds of heroes are there? Never played D&D before lol.

[Slipperychicken]

I mean, the smart hero in D&D, does that always relate to the mage? How many kinds of heroes are there? Never played D&D before lol.

Not always, any character in dnd can be a "smart hero". Rogues, Fighters, Bards, Clerics... even Barbarians can be clever (think Conan). The kind of thing you're describing is usually more reflected in skill selection and the player's ingenuity. Factotums and Rogues are well-suited to the archetype fluff-wise, although basically any class can pull it off.

In dnd, there are all kinds of heroes; magicians, musicians, fighters, talkers, pacifists, criminals, fanatics, crusaders, preachers, generals.. the list goes on. The whole point (in 3.5 at least) is you can have just about any hero (or villain, or monster) you can imagine. You can even play as a monster, provided your DM is cool with letting you play a monster.

That said, all that choice is often overwhelming to a newcomer, so you may want to start off by looking at the fluff for several classes and seeing what appeals to you. Or find a cool archetype elsewhere and roll with that (one might be inspired by Aragorn to play a Ranger, or by Conan to play a Barbarian, or by Merlin to play a Wizard).

[AquaBlade]

Does the artificer relate more to the mage class?
so when would the engineer relate to the rogue/warrior classes in mmorpgs?
Like the engineer in battlefield 3 and in maplestory and in dragon nest? Which class would each of them relate to?

[Artanis]

Does the artificer relate more to the mage class?
so when would the engineer relate to the rogue/warrior classes in mmorpgs?
Like the engineer in battlefield 3 and in maplestory and in dragon nest? Which class would each of them relate to?
For Rogue- or Warrior-type engineers, I imagine any sort of Engineer that makes specialized equipment for that sort of thing. Like an Engineer who makes himself cloaking devices and mechanical lockpicks would work as a Rogue-type, and a Warrior-type Engineer could more resemble Iron Man.

[Mando Knight]

The difference between Artificers and Engineers is mostly academic: really, the only big difference is whether their technology is considered magical or a product of normal sciences, and in worlds where magic is a science, it's not necessarily even worth differentiation.

To me, the only really defining factor for an Engineer in a game is his ability to use technology (that they generally supply through their own ingenuity) to solve problems (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgNBsCI4EA). Example: Star Trek Online gives the Engineer career (class) things such as the ability to repair shields and starship components, use their tricorders or some similar hand-sized device to disable enemy weapons or jam their armor... in general perform the MMO equivalent of the heat-of-the-moment repairs and ingenuity done almost every episode in the TV series.

The other thing that Engineers tend to do, it seems to me, is use technological pets in combat... things like auto-turrets or robots.

[AquaBlade]

For Rogue- or Warrior-type engineers, I imagine any sort of Engineer that makes specialized equipment for that sort of thing. Like an Engineer who makes himself cloaking devices and mechanical lockpicks would work as a Rogue-type, and a Warrior-type Engineer could more resemble Iron Man.

do you have any examples. For example, the engineers from tf2, battlefield 3, mass effect 3, and guild wars 2. What would each relate to.

[Triaxx]

Engineers in all games tend to take a more... object oriented approach. They seem to tend more towards vehicles or robots than organics, like doctor types. It's not so much that they're so much more common, it's that they tend not to get missed until you've suddenly got them. Like medics for machines, until you have machines, they don't seem that useful, but once you have machines, having engineers to run them seems like a no-brainer.

On the other hand, since you tend to start as squishy meat bags, not having a medic would make more of an impact than not having an engineer. The other problem, is to use TF2 as an example, Engineers can be an unfair advantage. For example the heavy can put out a lot of fire, yes, but can he match three engineers worth of turrets?

[AquaBlade]

so what archetype would they generally relate to in those examples above

[AquaBlade]

any ideas?????

[Knaight]

so what archetype would they generally relate to in those examples above

They generally don't relate well, because you're imposing the archetypes over somewhere they are inapplicable to. The archetypes listed are a useful model for a specific kind of fantasy game, and break down when applied to just about anything else.

[AquaBlade]

They generally don't relate well, because you're imposing the archetypes over somewhere they are inapplicable to. The archetypes listed are a useful model for a specific kind of fantasy game, and break down when applied to just about anything else.

couldn't u compare characteristics?

[Eldan]

Not really. If you put the four roles more generally as tank, healer, area damage and skill monkey, engineers aren't really any of them. Some of the things they build may do them or help with them, but hte engineers themselves don't.

[AquaBlade]

Not really. If you put the four roles more generally as tank, healer, area damage and skill monkey, engineers aren't really any of them. Some of the things they build may do them or help with them, but hte engineers themselves don't.

do the four roles really have to correspond to the trinity. Right now more and more mmorpgs are trying to do away with them such as guild wars 2. Warriors can deal area damage too and all classes can heal. So I don't think mages specifiically correspond to area damage.
But couldn't we compare other things besides the roles? Obviously the roles don't define the archetype/class since one class can have more than one role in multiple games.
They compared it here:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ModernDaySciFiRPGClassEquivalents
but I don't agree that sappers are necessarily mages.

[Eldan]

Well, you wanted to compare to the classic four-role model. Of course newer games don't follow that slavishly, that's called innovation.

[AquaBlade]

Well, you wanted to compare to the classic four-role model. Of course newer games don't follow that slavishly, that's called innovation.

yeah, but I think there might be a better way to relate mages other than just sappers. Since that doesn't necessarily define a mage.

[AquaBlade]

so what archetype does an engineer belong?

[Eldan]

Again: "Engineer" is just a name. We can't classify any engineer. They will probably act in different ways in every game.

[AquaBlade]

so what archetype do engineers belong to?

[Eldan]

You know, posting hte same question over and over in a weekly rhythm won't give you any more answers.

An Engineer can be any archetype the designers of the game in question wanted him to be. They just need to give him the right gadgets.

Stealth? Light-bending suit.
AoE? Grenades. Artillery.
Ranged attacks? Artillery again. High-powered weapons.
Tanking? Mech suit. Nets. Grappling hooks.
Support? Almost anything, really.

[AquaBlade]

You know, posting hte same question over and over in a weekly rhythm won't give you any more answers.

An Engineer can be any archetype the designers of the game in question wanted him to be. They just need to give him the right gadgets.

Stealth? Light-bending suit.
AoE? Grenades. Artillery.
Ranged attacks? Artillery again. High-powered weapons.
Tanking? Mech suit. Nets. Grappling hooks.
Support? Almost anything, really.

Aren't those more of roles not archetypes. I mean like warrior rogue cleric or mage? How can you definitively state whether something is one of those archetypes?
Like even artillery you can't conclude it's a mage. I've seen a game that I mentioned in one of my threads that there's a class which is defined as a ranger and is the best glass cannon in the game.

[The Glyphstone]

How can you definitively state whether something is one of those archetypes?

Exactly. You can't. That's what we have been trying to tell you.

If your Engineer has a light-bending suit and short-ranged powerful weapons, he is a 'rogue'. If he sets up long-range artillery and hands out buffs to allies, he is a 'mage'. If he straps on a suit of power armor and goes into close combat with nets and grapples, he's a "fighter". The only thing all these Engineers have in common is the use of mechanical gadgets and equipment to perform their role or fit into their archetype, so 'Engineer' itself is not a classifiable term.

[AquaBlade]

Exactly. You can't. That's what we have been trying to tell you.

If your Engineer has a light-bending suit and short-ranged powerful weapons, he is a 'rogue'. If he sets up long-range artillery and hands out buffs to allies, he is a 'mage'. If he straps on a suit of power armor and goes into close combat with nets and grapples, he's a "fighter". The only thing all these Engineers have in common is the use of mechanical gadgets and equipment to perform their role or fit into their archetype, so 'Engineer' itself is not a classifiable term.

but how come we could usually define things like the sniper as a rogue?
But long range artillery, doesn't that not always point towards the mage? Like I mentioned above somewhere, there's a game where a class is a ranger but she's the most glass cannon out of all the classes. Usually, I picture a really buff guy carrying around a rocket launcher or a tank. Even thoug hthey're long range artillery I don't think they're mages. How would you define them then?

So fine, a specific example. The engineers in guild wars 2, battlefield 3, and tf2, which archetype are each of them?

[PallElendro]

Engineers have existed in Star Trek Online as the turret dropper and mechanical buffer of Starfleet.

[Eldan]

but how come we could usually define things like the sniper as a rogue?


Because different people have different ideas of what "Rogue" means. To some people, snipers are rogues because they are stealthy. To others, they would be wizards in those four types, because they use long range and deal large amounts of damage.

And lo and behold: we get what everyone has been telling you on every single page of all your threads:
Rogue, Wizard, Cleric and Fighter are just words. Words that mean different things to different people in different games. A cleric is someone who worships a god in an organized manner. The original Greek meaning comes form the word for drawing lots, it was an official selected by drawing lots to determine who had to do a certain duty. A fighter is someone who fights. Rogue has come to mean someone who is dishonorable in some way, but the Old French word means someone who is arrogant, Wiktionary tells me, and the Old Norse means "excessive". Wizard literally derives from "wise man". None of these words tell you how a person fights.

[Mando Knight]

The original Greek meaning comes form the word for drawing lots, it was an official selected by drawing lots to determine who had to do a certain duty.

As an addendum, drawing/casting lots was a common method of divination in early civilizations, hence "cleric" being connected to the divine.

[Cogwheel]

As an addendum, drawing/casting lots was a common method of divination in early civilizations, hence "cleric" being connected to the divine.

Yes, lots. Clerics just draw so many cards.

Cheap, really. I can't stand that.

[AquaBlade]

Because different people have different ideas of what "Rogue" means. To some people, snipers are rogues because they are stealthy. To others, they would be wizards in those four types, because they use long range and deal large amounts of damage.

And lo and behold: we get what everyone has been telling you on every single page of all your threads:
Rogue, Wizard, Cleric and Fighter are just words. Words that mean different things to different people in different games. A cleric is someone who worships a god in an organized manner. The original Greek meaning comes form the word for drawing lots, it was an official selected by drawing lots to determine who had to do a certain duty. A fighter is someone who fights. Rogue has come to mean someone who is dishonorable in some way, but the Old French word means someone who is arrogant, Wiktionary tells me, and the Old Norse means "excessive". Wizard literally derives from "wise man". None of these words tell you how a person fights.

so how do you definitively classify something as a rogue or a warrior?
Same thing with jung's archetypes. Howc an you definitively call anything a hero or a shadow?

Well, me liking rogues and warriors the msot out of the typica traditional archetypes. Does that indicate anything?

[Tebryn]

so how do you definitively classify something as a rogue or a warrior?
Same thing with jung's archetypes. Howc an you definitively call anything a hero or a shadow?

You can't. That's why they're different from game to game.

[boj0]

so how do you definitively classify something as a rogue or a warrior?
Same thing with jung's archetypes. Howc an you definitively call anything a hero or a shadow?

Well, me liking rogues and warriors the msot out of the typica traditional archetypes. Does that indicate anything?

1. You can't
2. You can't
3. Nope

[AquaBlade]

1. You can't
2. You can't
3. Nope

so why are arhcetypes made then?
Archetypes are prototypes that are essentially copied all over. Similar to tropes. They have to be able to classify other things otherwise it's not an archetype.
Similar to things on tvtropes like lightning bruisers or glass cannons. You have to be able to classify certain things as that.

[boj0]

so why are arhcetypes made then?

Archetypes exist to make it easier to recognize similar ideas: i.e. "money" tells you nothing about the object I use for barter; but you understand the concept of it regardless of using dollars, gold coins, digital credits or souls of the innocent.

You seem really keen on wanting to quantify every class concept into an archetype; awesome, but you need more context for that to be effective...

You can ask if the TF2 Engineer is similar to the SW Saga one, but your comparing apples to oranges, both are food, but are vastly different. Pretty much every class is taken on a case-by-case basis, you can't make blanket statements about every Ranger or Engineer or holy warrior. You'll get a hundred answers for each because IT IS ALL SUBJECTIVE. Archetypes are general ideas, trying to make them more specific defeats the purpose. Warrior is "dude who fights", and that is the most simplistic one; even "Rogue" is up for debate.



Archetypes are prototypes that are essentially copied all over. Similar to tropes. They have to be able to classify other things otherwise it's not an archetype.
Similar to things on tvtropes like lightning bruisers or glass cannons. You have to be able to classify certain things as that.

Classify in the loosest of sense, Archetypes are more general than specific.
Final example before I return to the night as a silent vigilante: "Car" is an archetype, "Racing car" is a role, and "1992 Dodge Viper" is a class.

tl;dr you are completely missing the point of archetypes and it makes everyone else on the forum sad pandas :smallfrown:

[AquaBlade]

so what does one do if they like a specific type of class?
And what archetypes do classes like bards and alchemists fall into in mmorpgs?

[boj0]

so what does one do if they like a specific type of class?

Do whatever you like?:smallconfused: I'm not big on controlling people
If I like a certain playstyle, I usually stick to that playstyle.


And what archetypes do classes like bards and alchemists fall into in mmorpgs?

Specify please; too many variables otherwise

[Tebryn]

so what does one do if they like a specific type of class?
And what archetypes do classes like bards and alchemists fall into in mmorpgs?

They fall into the Bard and Alchemist Archtypes. No two Bards are the same in different media. It really is that simple.

[AquaBlade]

They fall into the Bard and Alchemist Archtypes. No two Bards are the same in different media. It really is that simple.

which archetype rogue warrior mage cleric?
They have to fall into one of these traditional archetypes....

so what does one do if they like a specific type of class? like me with rogues and warriors.

[boj0]

which archetype rogue warrior mage cleric?
They have to fall into one of these traditional archetypes....

WAT
No, they don't
Never
No, not even then...
Which is funny since in your other thread you told me it isn't all about the trinity...especially after I told you that not everything can fit into those classifications



so what does one do if they like a specific type of class? like me with rogues and warriors.

You keep asking this question....
IF YOU LIKE A CLASS THEN PLAY IT, YOUR INABILITY OF UNDERSTANDING THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT LEADS ME TO BELIEVE YOU ARE INDEED A DALEK, I HUMBLY ASK THAT YOU LEAVE OUR PLANET.

MY GOODNESS I'M SO FULL OF WAT THAT MY BRAIN IS CRYING

STOP AQUABLADE, FOR THE LOVE OF MY BRAIN, STOP ASKING THE SAME QUESTION FIFTEEN TIMES IN THE SAME THREAD

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNPOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910111213141516 17181920

[endoperez]

He does this a lot, and all of his posts end in a question. He only makes threads like these, in this and other forums.

[AquaBlade]

dude just because it doesn't fall into the trinity doesn't mean it can't be a warrior rogue mage cleric. Guild wars 2 does this too......
would it be possible to characterize engineers if I gave a specific example? For example, the engineer in tf2, battlefield 3, and guild wars 2. Where would each fit in?
And additionally talking about unique classes, where would clsases like the merchant class in ragnarok online or the dancer class fit in? And additionally the dealer class in rose online and the trader class in lineage 2?
thanks.

[boj0]

dude just because it doesn't fall into the trinity doesn't mean it can't be a warrior rogue mage cleric.

> The Trinity is Warrior/Mage/Thief
> It doesn't fall into the Trinity
> Therefore it is not a Warrior, Thief, or a Mage

QED

[AquaBlade]

> The Trinity is Warrior/Mage/Thief
> It doesn't fall into the Trinity
> Therefore it is not a Warrior, Thief, or a Mage

QED

Clearly you failed elementary mathematics. Your so called "proof" is invalidated and there are so many flaws. Tell me how guild wars 2 has no trinity and yet it does have a clas called a warrior a class called a thief and three mage classes named differently? No, trinity does not = warrior thief mage.

You're one of those people who think the holy trinity is the basis of all mmorpgs. No, everyone is trying to rework the system because it is boring and there are reasons upon reasons why a new system is required like the one in guild wars 2. In addition, you don't even know what the trinity is. It's tank, healing, and dps. You didn't even mention the cleric, and in the original trinity, it was typically related to the fighting man, cleric, and the mage in old D&D.

would it be possible to characterize engineers if I gave a specific example? For example, the engineer in tf2, battlefield 3, and guild wars 2. Where would each fit in?
And additionally talking about unique classes, where would clsases like the merchant class in ragnarok online or the dancer class fit in? And additionally the dealer class in rose online and the trader class in lineage 2?
thanks.

[boj0]

Lol
Oh you

[AquaBlade]

{{scrubbed}}

[Tebryn]

What do you call a Trinity that isn't?

[Thanatos 51-50]

If you're - as I suspect you're doing referring to the "Holy Trinity" of MMORPGs - and asking whether or not a Rogue is definitively DPS, Tank, or Healer, the answer this:
There is no definitive answer.

Engineers fill whatever role the game designers wanted them to fill by fluffing their spells/abilities/powers/what-have-yous appropriately. "Engineer" is not a part of the "Holy Trinity", neither, mind you, is "Rogue". Nor is "Mage". The Trinity consists solely of "DPS", "Healer", and "Tank", and any class named "Engineer" with an engineer-like flavour will act precisely how the developers want it to, with no particular reason for it to skew one way or another.
Snipers are generally considered "Rogues" because some people equate single-target DPS classes with "Rogue". You're working with half-measures and asking us for full measures, and when the math doesn't add up, you're panicking and asking why we have twice the amount of stuff that you do.

[Tebryn]

which archetype rogue warrior mage cleric?
They have to fall into one of these traditional archetypes....

so what does one do if they like a specific type of class? like me with rogues and warriors.

They don't fall into any of those three. They are their own archetype called Engineer. It's a new Archetype created by a pseudo-modern generation who find the flashy and new entertaining but in reality it's just a hollow and vacant shell acting as a mirror to their materialist greed. In a perfect system there is only one class and everyone plays as it. It's balanced with a wide array of skills which is good because everyone gets the same skills. Each server works like clock work, dungeon loot is equal no matter who picks it up. It's all the same items. There's only a single character model for men and for women.

[AquaBlade]

If you're - as I suspect you're doing referring to the "Holy Trinity" of MMORPGs - and asking whether or not a Rogue is definitively DPS, Tank, or Healer, the answer this:
There is no definitive answer.

Engineers fill whatever role the game designers wanted them to fill by fluffing their spells/abilities/powers/what-have-yous appropriately. "Engineer" is not a part of the "Holy Trinity", neither, mind you, is "Rogue". Nor is "Mage". The Trinity consists solely of "DPS", "Healer", and "Tank", and any class named "Engineer" with an engineer-like flavour will act precisely how the developers want it to, with no particular reason for it to skew one way or another.
Snipers are generally considered "Rogues" because some people equate single-target DPS classes with "Rogue". You're working with half-measures and asking us for full measures, and when the math doesn't add up, you're panicking and asking why we have twice the amount of stuff that you do.

What are you talking about. I'm not even talking about the holy trinity. I don't care about the holy trinity of roles it's overused and it should be replaced by now as in guild wars 2. When did I talk about rogues fitting into the holy trinity of roles.

I've been saying that a class can fit into any role. I've seen warriors as support or even as dps and rogues as utility or as dodge tanks. Where the hell are you getting the holy trinity from. I'm talking about the traditional base classes of rogues warriors clerics and rogues. And that's four classes not three.
And no, snipers are not referred to rogues because of their single-target dps it's because they're both stealthy and they mostly play the role of scouts. If we were talking about roles they'd be mages because they are nukers and one hit killers.
{Scrubbed}

I'm asking what relates to the rogues and warrior classes and what unifies them because I like those classes out of the four traditional base classes.

{Scrubbed}

[Tebryn]

Can you explain it more clearly then please? I think the problem we're having is you never answer any questions. You just repeat the question over and over. We agree, any "class" be any "roll". So the answer to your question is that there are no relations to either of those classes.

[boj0]

The thread keeps going...
"Some men just want to watch the world burn"

[Tebryn]

The thread keeps going...
"Some men just want to watch the world burn"

And we fiddle as it does. What can I say? My Archetype is Bard. Or is it Rogue. Oh who the hell really knows.

[Cogwheel]

And we fiddle as it does. What can I say? My Archetype is Bard. Or is it Rogue. Oh who the hell really knows.

Is a bard a rogue or a mage, though?

[Tebryn]

I think it's a hybrid. A Mague. That's what I am. A Mague.

[Eldan]

I only come here for the burning, myself.

Personally, my favourite archetype is banana fish origami spork*
*cookie for the reference.

[AquaBlade]

Can you explain it more clearly then please? I think the problem we're having is you never answer any questions. You just repeat the question over and over. We agree, any "class" be any "roll". So the answer to your question is that there are no relations to either of those classes.

are you kidding me. Yeah any class can fit multiple roles. Roles is not the only way to relate to classes. If it was, we wouldn't have classes and we would just denote things by roles. There are stats and attributes.
What I'm saying is:
would it be possible to characterize engineers if I gave a specific example? For example, the engineer in tf2, battlefield 3, and guild wars 2. Where would each fit in?
And additionally talking about unique classes, where would clsases like the merchant class in ragnarok online or the dancer class fit in? And additionally the dealer class in rose online and the trader class in lineage 2?
thanks.

[Thanatos 51-50]

What are you talking about. I'm not even talking about the holy trinity. I don't care about the holy trinity of roles it's overused and it should be replaced by now as in guild wars 2. When did I talk about rogues fitting into the holy trinity of roles.

I've been saying that a class can fit into any role. I've seen warriors as support or even as dps and rogues as utility or as dodge tanks. Where the hell are you getting the holy trinity from. I'm talking about the traditional base classes of rogues warriors clerics and rogues. And that's four classes not three.
And no, snipers are not referred to rogues because of their single-target dps it's because they're both stealthy and they mostly play the role of scouts. If we were talking about roles they'd be mages because they are nukers and one hit killers.
Learn to read what I type because I never talked about the holy trinity.

I'm asking what relates to the rogues and warrior classes and what unifies them because I like those classes out of the four traditional base classes.

And no I'm not panicking and I'm not asking that at all. Learn to read first before you start assuming bull****.

Okay, let me try to explain things as slowly and clearly as possible:


Your Original Question: What Role does the engineer class play?
Role here is assumed to mean "What does it do in combat?"
"What does it do in combat?" is what the so-called "Holy Trinity" is all about.
You claim to reject the trinity and only wish to discuss using the "original classes" of Warrior, Mage, Rogue, Cleric
The "original" classes, by the way (That is, Classes that existed when D&D was nothing but a rules hack for Chainmail) are "Fighting-man", "Magic-User", and "Cleric". You're referring to the "Classic" classes


Now, follow closely, here, because here's the rub: The "Holy Trinity" (Gods, I hate that turn-of-phrase) is just a hack of the classic classes. Typically, they stack up thusly:

Warrior = Tank
Rogue = DPS
Mage = DPS
Cleric = Healer

However, they will not always stack up so, and often the distinction is unclear, which leads to party compositions where (for example) the Rogue is a Speed Tank or a Mezzer (Mezzer here defined as a class which makes heavy use of a buff and/or debuff system).
This leads to an open-ended explanation of what Warrior, Mage, Rogue, and Cleric ACTUALLY are. I proposed the following set of definitions:


Warrior: That which uses (Mostly) non-magical abilities to fight. The Warrior stands toe to toe of the enemy and excels at making them dead whilst remaining not-dead himself
Rogue: That which uses (Almost exclusively, if probable) non-magical means to grant himself superior positioning to the enemy. In combat, he excels at making the enemy dead. However, he is typically not resilient, relaying on agility and cunning to avoid reciprocation
Mage: That which uses (Exclusively) magical means to assault the enemy (typically at range). The Mage's primary concern in a combat situation is to himself safe, and he accomplishes this by either destroying the enemy before he is in range for reprisal, locking the enemy in place, or making his allies bigger threats than he is. Secondarily, the Mage excels in using his abilities to cause wide-spread damage, so as to assault as many enemies as possible simultaneously
Cleric: That which uses (Primarily) magical means - often supplied a deity or a religious source - to supply his allies with an edge in combat. A Cleric is more likely than any class to be cast in the role of the healer - bolstering his alies so that they can stay in the fight for longer and hold the line. Clerics often, however, also do work as a Mezzer (Mezzer herein described as it is above), with a heavy focus on making their allies stronger. The Cleric, lest he be caught alone and in the wild, must be no slouch in direct confrontation itself, and often has a slew of abilities to directly engage in the fight.


Magic used in the definitions above should be modified to fit your setting: after all, what is magic in the setting? In Star Wars, it's the Force, in Star Trek, it might very well be super-technology (Which consequently often blurs the Rogue/Mage distinction).

Where does "Engineer" fit? In GW2, it would seem to me they most often fill the role as a "Rogue" (I don't have GW2, but I do know magic is a thing and Engineers don't have it). In any setting wherein Technology=Magic, they can fulfill Mage or Cleric roles.
Note that, the entire time, even in the dfinition above, we're still using:

Fighter = Typically Tank
Rogue = Typically DPS
Mage = Typically DPS
Cleric = Typically Healer

And that's why MMOs tend to use the Trinity instead of Warrior/Mage/Rogue/Cleric., because the Trinity allows for more narrative flexibility in the game of watching life bars shrink and occasionally grow.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: And this thread has reached the end of whatever utility it might have had. Locked.