Antithesis

[leegi0n]

If one being (multi-classed or not) were to be the antithesis of lycanthrope/undead hunters, what would that being be?

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Maybe I don't get the question, but wouldn't the antithesis of a lycanthrope hunter by a lycanthrope (particularly one who goes around creating more lycanthropes) and the antithesis of an undead hunter be some kind of undead (or a necromancer) who goes around creating more undead (like a wright or a vampire)?

[docnessuno]

An Undead lychantrope? Seems odd but if the lychantrope template is added first should work RaW.

[Adamantrue]

Actually, wouldn't the antithesis be some sort of Lycanthrope/Undead Protector?

[Psyren]

The antithesis of "hunter" being "hunted," I'd expect the lycanthropes/undead themselves to be the answer.

[leegi0n]

My post was kind of confusing - allow me to clarify.

A van helsing being - one who hunts the undead and lycanthropes.


What would make a nasty, hard/CHALLENGING baddy (either lycanthrope or undead or both) to throw at the hunter?

I should have called it Arch Enemy instead of antithesis.

[Scots Dragon]

A song dragon dracolich. The original term for 'song dragons' was 'weredragons' given that their entire concept was that they were able to take the form of human women.

[Flickerdart]

A lycanthrope hunter hunter. Chances are they're humanoids, which IIRC there's a prestige class specializing against in Races of the Wild or possibly Destiny.

[Medic!]

To counter the undead-hunter side of things, I'd go with the Deathless template from BoED. For countering the Lycanthrope hunter...the only thing I can come up with is something that isn't a lycanthrope, or if it has to be a Lycanthrope, I'd probably say go Were-bear and emphasize grappling to minizimze the hunter bringing silver weapons to bear (hahahahahaha)

Class-wise, I have absolutely ZERO basis for this, but for some reason my brain keeps screaming "shadow sun ninja" refluffed to become a deathless instead of a vampire when he dumped too many negative levels during his transformation.

[Alabenson]

For an antithesis to a lycanthrope/undead hunter, I'd go with a Dread Necromancer lycanthrope, perhaps something unique like a were-vulture.

[Namfuak]

I actually kind of like the idea of a necropolitan lycanthrope for this, because unlike most other undead a necropolitan makes a conscious decision to become undead. Even necromancers aren't becoming undead themselves (unless they become liches, I suppose), they are simply defiling those who are already dead. He could even still focus on melee, maybe with a small cadre of necromancers to support him.

Stray thought - it could be cool if instead of turning into a wolf, he turned into a zombie wolf.

[Arcanist]

The most comedic way (and I'm sure towards some peoples believes unfair) is the Song Dragon. It can become either a Human or a Dragon (gaining the respective type benefits from being Polymorph'd)

The Great Wyrm Song Dragon gets attacked by a Lycanthrope (I enjoy Wolves) while in human form gaining the Lycanthrope templete after a few centuries the Song Dragon still disguised as a human becomes a Lich... not being satisfied the Song Dragon ensures even greater longevity by shifting into a Dragon and becoming a Dracolich...

Congratulations. You are now a Werewolf Great Wyrm (Draco)Lich Song Dragon. Permanently killing you is now almost impossible as you have 2 Phylacteries without the use of Epic Magic.

Add on the other Dragonic Shenanigans (See Eberron) and even the Batman Wizard would have trouble killing this fellow :smallamused:

EDIT: Wait, are we trying to kill the Hero? Or just make his day worse? Because that Song Dragon can only be a Mastermind... no Brute puts that much value on his/her life...

[Venger]

all the suggestions thus far have been great. since I assume you're talking about building an NPC to be a PC's nemesis, allow me to suggest an infrequently used, but somewhat powerful class.

Blighter.

it's not usually used since you need to dump 5 lvls in druid (plus more for a high enough BA) to get in, but at that point, it's all downhill.

you get "undead wild shape" which means all the animals you wild shape into have the skeleton template applied to them.

this way, it's a man/woman who turns not only into a wolf, what your abraham van helsing views as a violation of their perfect god-given form, but into a skeleton wolf, a mockery of life and soul as well as body.

what level is your van helsing? how optimised is s/he? blighters do have to "start over" from druid as it were, like the by-the-book ur-priest and it takes a little time to catch up. their spell progression, due to its accelerated rate, does eventually exceed the druid's progression, but does not do so until mid-game. it equals the druid at 13 with 7ths, and surpasses the druid at 14, unlocking 8ths early, and 9ths at 14, even faster than an ur-priest.

if your van helsing is too low a level for your blighter to have enough powers to be more than a crappy druid who can't do anything, there's another idea in a similar vein that may of use to you.

check this out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm)

a druid is capable of casting this spell as early as level 7. This means that any druid that is at least level 7 is capable of being effectively immortal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality)

Think of what peoples' mindset was like 100 years ago. How was it different from now? Would they be able to get along in contemporary society comfortably? would they be able to integrate comfortably with a set of values that was so radically different from their own? would they want to? Imagine someone who was alive as an adult in 1912 (saying they would have been born 30 or so years beforehand, in 1882) how would they view things?

how would this be for someone from 500 years ago?

1000 years ago?
longer?

how would they view contemporary people, who have been alive for only a short period of time from their point of view? what sort of societal trends and repetitions would they be privy to, having seen them form personal experience? would they feel as though society was repeating itself or making the same mistakes repeatedly?

how can you apply these questions to someone who lives in your campaign world? was there a war 100 years or more ago? was the country van helsing is from established yet? was the village he was from constructed? what was there before? an indigenous native tribe? forest? if you go back far enough in any sort of settlement, the land had to be cleared at some time.

what right did the people who built there have to raze the forest/level the village/loot the ruins/etc? what sort of punishment do they deserve? how long could someone who is hundreds or thousands of years old hold a grudge? what sort of long-term plans can they develop, having all the time in the world to see them come to fruition? they may have additional insights to natural occurrences that occur with regularity (ex: that volcano the town is built under erupts once every 75 years, but the colony was established there only 5 years ago, and the people there lack the technological/magical knowledge to determine the volcano is dormant instead of just being a mountain.)

are there any newly founded cities or towns in your game? does your van helsing have any sort of vested interest in one of them? have the PCs done an escort mission to protect some NPCs getting to a city while protecting them from highwaymen or something like that? do you know of ongoing exploratory or expansion efforts from a local government that the PCs are involved with?

what would happen if this settlement were struck by some sort of natural disaster? would the PCs care?

what would happen if it happened again? would they take notice?

what about a third time?

due to popular portrayals, it's very easy to forget the raw destructive power a druid can have. they can cause meteor showers, tidal waves, and earthquakes. they can control the weather to flood a city, withhold rain and starve it, or anything in between.

what kind of prejudices would someone from that long ago have? how dissatisfied would they be with the present state of affairs in your campaign world? would they sit idly by when they had druid spellcasting at their fingertips?

make the reincarnation as a form of immortality thing a clear theme with this character. since van helsing holds wholeness of body in high regard, emphasize how bodies are just like corn husks or cicada shells to this druid character to further juxtapose the two. it also provides a non-BS way for you to reintroduce him/her if van helsing and the PCs are able to kill him/her. after all, if all it took was being killed, would they be around still after all this time?

lmk what you think. if these don't work, I have other ideas


A lycanthrope hunter hunter. Chances are they're humanoids, which IIRC there's a prestige class specializing against in Races of the Wild or possibly Destiny.

pretty sure you're thinking of races of destiny's "scar enforcer"

[Slipperychicken]

A van helsing being - one who hunts the undead and lycanthropes.


Ranger with Favored Enemy (Shapechanger)? That would be the simplest way to go about it.

[leegi0n]

Venger -

The "Van Helsing" is essentially a 10th level shade type character/cleric

[Venger]

Venger -

The "Van Helsing" is essentially a 10th level shade type character/cleric

what is a "shade type character?"

is he a straight cleric? is he a shade hunter? witch slayer? deadgrim? radiant servant of pelor? is he an emancipated spawn?

since I am now aware that he's a divine spellcaster, I can direct your attention to Planar Handbook's "Defiant" prc.

the basic conceit of it is that the force of your atheism gives you gradually increasing resistance to divine spells, and as you level up, it becomes increasingly difficult for enemies to use divine spellcasting around you. this seems like a natural antithesis to a divine, pious character.

if you want this NPC to also be level 10, then xx5/defiant 5 is available, and it'll mean he has SR against divine mind affecting spells, cha to saves against divine spells, immunity to divine damage, a dispel magic like ability (that's ex!) several times a day, and the ability to use align weapon (with any alignment) once a day

[leegi0n]

what is a "shade type character?"

A homebrew version of a shade. similar traits (shadow walk, etc) -

It is actually called "Shadow-Archi"

[Zubrowka74]

For an antithesis to a lycanthrope/undead hunter, I'd go with a Dread Necromancer lycanthrope, perhaps something unique like a were-vulture.

Nice concept!