Why half-elves?

[Grundy]

...and half-orcs? Or more specifically, why only half-elves and half-orcs? Where are the half-dwarves? Half-gnomes? Half-halflings? Dwarf-gnomes? Gnome-halflings? Elf-orcs?
There are tons of half-monsters, but if these PH races are supposed to be the most common, why don't they interbreed more?

[Invader]

Wasn't this addressed in one of the subsequent phb's or "races" books where it gives guidelines for creating any half and half race? Can't remember where I saw it but I swear I did.

[Anxe]

Genetics obviously. Elves, orcs, and humans are all close enough in genetic material that then can breed. Other races are not. The offspring of dwarf-human intercourse is a miscarriage or simply no conception.

[zimmerwald1915]

Because there's no dwarven counterpart to Elrond or Bill Ferny's friend in Lord of the Rings. Obviously. :smallamused:

[Madara]

I don't know about the more similar races.

Dwarves either fit in the human bracket or the Halfling Bracket.(Why are we pretty much basing this on size?) :smallconfused:

[grarrrg]

...and half-orcs? Or more specifically, why only half-elves and half-orcs? Where are the half-dwarves? Half-gnomes? Half-halflings? Dwarf-gnomes? Gnome-halflings? Elf-orcs?
There are tons of half-monsters, but if these PH races are supposed to be the most common, why don't they interbreed more?

A Wizard did it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)
That is likely the most accurate response you will get.


My speculation is as such:
You'll note that the two Half-X Races are both half-Human. Humans' inter-racial breeding potential is second only to that of Dragons (although Dragons usually need magical help). So you are unlikely to see Non-Human Half races.

Also, it could be that other half races exist, but they are Sterile/Infertile, similar to Mules, and thus are extremely rare. Where Humans, Elves, and Half-Elves can all successfully breed with each other (same goes for Orcs/Half-Orcs), other Half-breeds may not have that option, further limiting their numbers.

Also, have you SEEN a female Dwarf? WOOF!

[LeshLush]

Wasn't this addressed in one of the subsequent phb's or "races" books where it gives guidelines for creating any half and half race? Can't remember where I saw it but I swear I did.
The third party book Advanced Player's Manual from Green Ronin has rules for creating half-races.

[robertbevan]

Genetics obviously. Elves, orcs, and humans are all close enough in genetic material that then can breed. Other races are not. The offspring of dwarf-human intercourse is a miscarriage or simply no conception.

that's an interesting theory. but i would imagine it has more to do with convenient game design.

thinking about it objectively, if i had to pick the two other PC races that were most unlike humans, they would have to be elves and orcs. (possibly switch out gnomes for orcs, due to their inherent magical abilities.)

[killianh]

the BoCFB (BoEF) actually has a cross breeding chart in it exactly for this reason, and explains how it works. I don't have a link though I'm afraid

[LibraryOgre]

Different games have tackled half-dwarves, with a few different results.

In the Forgotten Realms, Dwarves' Deep (1991) addresses half-dwarf, half-human or demi-human; briefly, they're relatively common, and are usually male dwarf-female other crosses, as dwarven females are rarer, and less fertile. A non-dwarven woman who lives the dwarven way and raises dwarven children is highly respected. The children are considered full dwarves, both by dwarves and by game mechanics.

Athas, of course, has Muls, who are half-dwarf, half-human. Sterile, tough, and with incredible endurance, they're, again, pretty common.

Gully dwarves from Krynn are alternately (depending on the source) described as human/dwarf or gnome/dwarf hybrids.

***

Gnomes and halflings are less common to see crossbred. There's at least one short story that suggests half-kender are possible ("Kender Stew" in Reign of Istar). I cannot recall a straight-up example of a gnome crossbreed.

I maintain that if humans and halflings were compatible, you'd wind up with a race of slightly shorter humans after a while... there's pretty much no place you can't replace a traditional, hobbitish, halfling with a human.

[lesser_minion]

...and half-orcs? Or more specifically, why only half-elves and half-orcs? Where are the half-dwarves? Half-gnomes? Half-halflings? Dwarf-gnomes? Gnome-halflings? Elf-orcs?

As far as I'm aware, the half-elf and half-orc concepts were both lifted from Lord of the Rings, although D&D does them very differently.

For in-universe explanations, there isn't one that I know of, although I know that the concept of humanoid crossbreeds has actually been expanded beyond the core examples.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall
I maintain that if humans and halflings were compatible, you'd wind up with a race of slightly shorter humans after a while...

In my campaign, I have a halfling swashbuckler who's quite the ladies' man, and his player asked me about just this issue. I made an emergency ruling that halflings and humans can't interbreed. Forget genetics, I don't want to deal with paternity issues.

:smallyuk:

[grarrrg]

As far as I'm aware, the half-elf and half-orc concepts were both lifted from Lord of the Rings, although D&D does them very differently.

To elaborate some, Aragorn has Elf in his heritage, and the Uruk-Hai were a crossbreed between Men and Orcs.
Although in LotR, the Uruk-Hai are closer to D&D Orcs, and LotR Orcs are closer to D&D Half-Orcs and Goblins (the Moria Orcs are even referred to as 'goblins' being a smaller/faster breed than 'typical' Orcs).


In my campaign, I have a halfling swashbuckler who's quite the ladies' man, and his player asked me about just this issue. I made an emergency ruling that halflings and humans can't interbreed. Forget genetics, I don't want to deal with paternity issues.

I read somewhere (I think it was D&D related, but not sure) that a Human/Halfling offspring would be either just Human or just Halfling, as the two races are close enough that the only real difference was Size.

[Palanan]

This was actually hinted at in the end of the animated Hobbit movie, when Gandalf points out that Merry and Pippin are taller than other hobbits, and that one day some human might ask, "Is there hobbit in me?"

(That's an old memory, but I think it runs true.)

[Ravens_cry]

I believe Hobbits were a subspecies of humans in Lord of the Rings, perhaps more related to the Drúedain.
Dwarves are explicitly an entirely other species.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Because no one wants to have sex with dwarves, and gnomes and halflings aren't "sized right." No one wants to have sex with orcs, either, but...they are implied to *ahem* find a work-around to that problem...

I'm joking...but that probably is the reason, ultimately... I wonder why there are no half-gnome / half-halfling freaks of nature?

[Hirax]

Aside from a lack of the things mentioned in the OP, what also bothers me is that half-elves, half-orcs, aasimars, tieflings, etc are generally setup with human ancestry, with no alternative to be half-anything-else. What would an elf or orc aasimar or tiefling be like? Or a half-elf half-gnome?

[Ravens_cry]

Half-Halflings exist in 'Yet Another Fantasy Webcomic'.
Personally, the idea kind of freaks me out thanks to the size disparity.
There is some series potential medical issues if cases of dwarfism in humans are any indication, even with magical healing at hand.

[Grim Reader]

...and half-orcs? Or more specifically, why only half-elves and half-orcs? Where are the half-dwarves? Half-gnomes? Half-halflings? Dwarf-gnomes? Gnome-halflings? Elf-orcs?
There are tons of half-monsters, but if these PH races are supposed to be the most common, why don't they interbreed more?

Come on. We all know what humans are like.

[Ravens_cry]

If you really feel the lack, nothing is stopping you from homebrewing your own for your own setting.

[mucco]

Because no one wants to have sex with dwarves, and gnomes and halflings aren't "sized right." No one wants to have sex with orcs, either, but...they are implied to *ahem* find a work-around to that problem...

I'm joking...but that probably is the reason, ultimately... I wonder why there are no half-gnome / half-halfling freaks of nature?

No man wants to have sex with a female dwarf, although I bet there is someone out there. About women, well, you know what they say about male dwarves! I think they'd be quite popular!

[hymer]

There's a bit of talk of Tolkien here, and I'd like to clear up a thing or two:



It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even Dwarves. […] But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.
- LotR, prologue


It’s worth noting, though, that these relatives don’t usually interbreed. Since all creatures are made by the same hand in Arda, they’re all relative in some way, but to different degrees. I’ve yet to hear of Dwarves or Ents to interbreed with other races, and when Men and Elves do, it’s highly unusual:



There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn.
- LotR, Appendix A


The only other interbreeding we hear of in LotR is of Orcs and Men, something Treebeard describes as a “black evil”. It’s also something recent (so men have something ugly from Orcs and something beautiful from Elves in them, as they begin the Fourth Age, the Men we descend from).
Add to this the theory that Orcs are twisted Elves, and maybe only two races can actually interbreed.

So, to OP’s question of why there are so few halfbreeds, I’d say this: Because halfbreeds should be special. If everyone or everything can breed with anyone or anything else, all distinction becomes blurred.

[mcv]

Because there's no dwarven counterpart to Elrond or Bill Ferny's friend in Lord of the Rings. Obviously. :smallamused:
That's exactly my answer: Half-elves and half-orcs are based in Tolkien, other races aren't.

Of course how this works in your own setting is entirely up to you. Maybe there are no hybrids at all, maybe there are other or very different hybrids. I once designed a world where elves/orcs were the only hybrid. (I still want to do more with that some day.)




There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn.
- LotR, Appendix A

Though Arwen and Aragorn were both already of mixed heritage.


In my campaign, I have a halfling swashbuckler who's quite the ladies' man, and his player asked me about just this issue.
Similar to Casanunda, the world's smallest lover?

[hymer]

@ MCV: And yet, Tolkien chose to characterize them as Eldar and Edain, respectively. This being because Elros and Elrond were given 'an irrevocable choice to which kindred to belong' (quoted by memory). This choice they passed on to their descendants, which made Aragorn a mortal man by birth and gave Arwen the right to pass into the Undying Lands - which she then gave up and passed to Frodo.

Which again goes to show how unusual halfbreeds were. Though halfelven, Elros and Elrond still had to be put into one of the categories.

[Grim Reader]

Since all creatures are made by the same hand in Arda, they’re all relative in some way, but to different degrees. I’ve yet to hear of Dwarves or Ents to interbreed with other races, and when Men and Elves do, it’s highly unusual:

Nitpick: Dwarves weren't. They got the finishing touches from the creator, but the original work came from someone else. I have also heard that Melkors powers waned as the ages passed becuse he put some of his power into every creation he made. I am unable to think of anything he created, though. His stuff seem to have been corruptions of already existing creatures. Maybe dragons?

[hymer]

@ Grim Reader: Fair enough, 'hand' was a bad choice of word. The difference between, say, Dwarves and Trolls (which seem to be a creation of Melkor) is that the former were blessed by the One, whereas Trolls aren't. As such, Trolls in a sense are not really alive, and classically turns to stone when exposed to sunlight, when the power that makes them from rock and stone is expelled.
I can't find the quote right now (well, I can't be bothered to look too hard), but Frodo explains to Sam that the Shadow or somesuch cannot make new things, it can only mock and twist. And here we approach an enigma that Tolkien was never able to explain to himself satisfactorily, and which is getting still farther from the OP's intent with the thread. :)

But in the end, all creation comes from The One, and even Melkor cannot make something new; he can only take what he already was given, as you point out, and use it in twisted ways.

[mcv]

Weren't Trolls corrupted Ents?

[hymer]

@ mcv: According to Treebeard, Trolls were made 'in mockery of Ents, like Orcs were of Elves' or somesuch (again quoting from memory). He may or may not be right on this count. If you buy into Orcs being twisted Elves, Treebeard may here then indicate that he believes Trolls to be twisted Ents.
I don't buy that. I don't think Tolkien decided on the origins of Trolls, and from The Hobbit, we learn that Trolls are made of stone - Ents don't seem to be.

Edit: Actually, speaking of Trolls as one category may be more confusing than helpful. I seem to recall that Tolkien, besides not having decided on Trolls, noted that since some could withstand the sun, they may well come of various origins. Anyway, we have little definite to go on in the primary sources. Even the Silmarillion material says very little of Trolls.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
I wonder why there are no half-gnome / half-halfling freaks of nature?

Reproductive isolation usually reinforces itself over time, and small changes can accrue to the point of preventing gene transfer: classic speciation. The question would be what would cause isolation in populations which, lacking rules to the contrary, seem to mix freely in civilized areas.

So, I think the recognition species concept is a good one to apply here: species don't interbreed because they no longer fit each other's behavioral definition of a potential mate. Halflings and gnomes might have a shared origin, but they've developed behavioral differences which kept the populations as a whole from intermixing.



Originally Posted by Grim Reader
Nitpick: Dwarves weren't. They got the finishing touches from the creator, but the original work came from someone else.

According to The Silmarillion, "the Dwarves were made by Aulë in the darkness of Middle-Earth," because Aulë was eager to have others to whom he could teach his smithcraft and his earth-lore.

And the dwarves were entirely Aulë's creation, and Iluvatar told him, "...in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be."



Originally Posted by mcv
Weren't Trolls corrupted Ents?

Not directly, no, and not in the same way that orcs were twisted elves. In Robert Foster's Guide to Middle-Earth, he descibes trolls as "originally bred by Morgoth in the First Age from some unknown stock in mockery and imitation of Ents."

So, they were created in evil opposition to the Ents, but weren't derived from the Ents themselves. Tolls ate raw flesh, which isn't very Entish, burárum.
.
.

[Grim Reader]

@ Grim Reader: Fair enough, 'hand' was a bad choice of word. The difference between, say, Dwarves and Trolls (which seem to be a creation of Melkor) is that the former were blessed by the One, whereas Trolls aren't. As such, Trolls in a sense are not really alive, and classically turns to stone when exposed to sunlight, when the power that makes them from rock and stone is expelled.

True enough. I do notice that in Tolkien, the sentient creatures whose biology was fashioned by the One were able to interbreed. Men, Elves and Orcs, who were apparently corrupted Elves.

Creatures with a biology fashioned by other hands, such as Dwarves, could not. Even if they had the spark instilled by the One. It makes a certain amount of sense.

[grarrrg]

Creatures with a biology fashioned by other hands, such as Dwarves, could not. Even if they had the spark instilled by the One. It makes a certain amount of sense.

I believe that the first Dwarves were 7 males formed from stone and given life.

No mention of where the first FEMALE Dwarves came from though...

[Yora]

Because of, as so often, this guy:

http://www.tolkien-online.com/images/jrr_tolkien.jpg

Technically, there were only three half-elves in middle-earth, but given how super powerful those elves are the entire human royalty for the next 40 generations are effectively half-elves.
And in middle earth, orcs are not actually a species but a mutation of elves so the same things would apply to them as well, but I don't know who actually wrote the first half-orc character in fantasy fiction.

[Ravens_cry]

Some Uruk-hai could be examples of half orcs.
Another interesting possibility is that since mortality is a gift to Men, there is no way Melkor could have taken it from the elves he twisted into orcs, meaning orcs in Middle Earth are, from an ageing perspective, immortal.

[DDogwood]

I want to know why you can play a Halfling, but not a full-blood Ling.

[Twilightwyrm]

This Dark Sun Campaign setting has half-dwarves called Muls: http://www.athas.org/

Other than this, apparently humans are too biologically different from the other races to produce cross-offspring. Has some interesting implications if you think about it.

[TuggyNE]

I want to know why you can play a Halfling, but not a full-blood Ling.

Lings are overpowered for a player race, so have LA: -.

[grarrrg]

Lings are overpowered for a player race, so have LA: -.

Overpowered?
They don't even get a Familiar!

[Yora]

Some Uruk-hai could be examples of half orcs.
Completely forgot about them. In the book, they are very clearly half-orcs.

[hymer]

@ Yora: I don't think that's very clear at all. There are things described as 'goblin men' and 'half orcs' (the cross being attributed to Saruman), and then there are the Uruk-hai, which means "Orc-people" (and they were found in the armies of both Orthanc and the Dark Tower).

@ Ravens_cry: The mortality of Orcs need not be bound up on whether or not they are twisted Elves. Effective immunity from old age belongs arguably to Ents, Dragons and Trolls as well as Elves. Orcs might simply not have been designed with dying from old age in mind, and so lack the capacity to do so.
Listening to Gorbag and Shagrat talk about "the bad old times" could be interpreted to mean that they were alive at the time of the Last Alliance.

[Yora]

Hm, don't have a copy here to look it up.

But this site (http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Half-orcs) cites quite a number of chapters.

[Novawurmson]

1. Size issues; even though domesticated dogs are essentially all one species, you get into problems when you try to breed a mastiff (http://www.snorable.org/.a/6a00e54efb75da883301538e29337a970b-pi) with a teacup poodle, making gnome/humans and halfling/humans so rare. I feel that "romantic" contact might still take place, but actual breeding would be extremely likely to fail.

2. Cultural issues; "The Dwarves are for the Dwarves!" and other such species-ist slogans would dominate races that primarily live by themselves (like gnomes and dwarves). On the other hand, it's easy to imagine a human trapper/explorer living on the edge of elf or orc lands integrating with the local populace as was common with European settlers and native populations in 1600-1700s North America; human are the ones most likely to travel, and also the ones most likely to breed with others.

3. Unimaginative game designers.

[rexreg]

Several earlier posts have stated an incompatibility based on genes or some such scientific balderdash for why certain races cant cross-breed

all i have to say is owlbear

[Ravens_cry]

@ Yora: I don't think that's very clear at all. There are things described as 'goblin men' and 'half orcs' (the cross being attributed to Saruman), and then there are the Uruk-hai, which means "Orc-people" (and they were found in the armies of both Orthanc and the Dark Tower).

I am referring to Saruman's "fighting Uruk-hai" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk-hai) Admittedly, this is more in-universe speculation than canon, but it at least explains where the idea of half-orcs came from.



@ Ravens_cry: The mortality of Orcs need not be bound up on whether or not they are twisted Elves. Effective immunity from old age belongs arguably to Ents, Dragons and Trolls as well as Elves. Orcs might simply not have been designed with dying from old age in mind, and so lack the capacity to do so.
Listening to Gorbag and Shagrat talk about "the bad old times" could be interpreted to mean that they were alive at the time of the Last Alliance.
Exactly.

[Kansaschaser]

Genetics obviously. Elves, orcs, and humans are all close enough in genetic material that then can breed. Other races are not. The offspring of dwarf-human intercourse is a miscarriage or simply no conception.

Er, so you're saying that there can be a Half-Orc/Half-Elf?

[hamishspence]

I am referring to Saruman's "fighting Uruk-hai" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk-hai) Admittedly, this is more in-universe speculation than canon, but it at least explains where the idea of half-orcs came from.

I thought there were several variants. You've got the Saruman's Uruk-hai, which Treebeard points out "are more like wicked Men"- and speculates that they might have human blood in them.

You've got the other guys in Saruman's army "man-high, but with goblin faces"- which Aragorn actually calls half-orcs. (and, at one point in Unfinished Tales, in the Battle of the Fords of Isen, are called "orc-men" to distinguish them from the Uruks)

And you've got Bill Ferny's friend, a Dunlending, who was only rumoured to have orc blood.

[Novawurmson]

Er, so you're saying that there can be a Half-Orc/Half-Elf?

^

I think this is a major oversight and that there should be an elf-orc crossbreed race.

[hymer]

It's clear that there are a lot of degrees and variations in Orc kind. But I think there is little to nothing to indicate that the Uruk-hai have any mannish blood in them (the name aside). The Uruk-hai are not the same people as those like Bill Ferny's friend and various other ugly characters that seem more like wicked Men than Orcs.
Don't forget that it is stated that Hobbits, Dwarves, Men and Elves are somehow akin, but there is no indication of blood relations between all these peoples, with a few late exceptions to Men and Elves. So if Saruman has, as Treebeard said, blended the races of Orcs and Men, it need not mean actual interbreeding.
But it makes sense that the characters in LotR didn't fully understand the issue, just as we don't.

[Kaeso]

Where are the half-dwarves? Half-gnomes? Half-halflings? Dwarf-gnomes? Gnome-halflings? Elf-orcs?


:smalleek: Maybe because those have really disturbing sexual implications?

[hymer]

Er, so you're saying that there can be a Half-Orc/Half-Elf?

To be fair, that need not be the case. In a typical D&D world, humans could be close enough to either to produce offspring with them, but orcs and elves could be too far from each other to interbreed.

[rexreg]

the races are akin because (excepting Dwarves) they are all Children of Iluvatar
elves are first-born
humans are second-born
(dwarves fall outside of this & are of Aule; not sure how to argue this one)
hobbits are related to humans (an offshoot?) but are, therefore, children of Iluvatar, as well

as far as interbreeding in the d&d world goes, with powerful enough magic anything is possible

[grarrrg]

To be fair, that need not be the case. In a typical D&D world, humans could be close enough to either to produce offspring with them, but orcs and elves could be too far from each other to interbreed.

This has actually happened with certain species of birds.
The high-latitude birds can breed with the mid-latitude birds, and the mid-latitude birds can breed with the low-latitude birds, and the low-latitude birds can breed with the equatorial birds, etc...
But the high-latitude cannot breed with the low-latitude or equatorial birds, and the mid-latitude cannot breed with the equatorial birds.

So Elves might be "high", Humans are "mid", and Orcs are "low".
Maybe.

[Ravens_cry]

Er, so you're saying that there can be a Half-Orc/Half-Elf?
Depends. I've wonder this too, but apparently you can have what is called a ring species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species), where the middle one can breed successfully with the either end species, but not the two end ones with each other.
@hamishspence:

Yes, there was several 'breeds', as the link states.

[hymer]

@ grarrrg: Thanks. I was struggling to give an example, but I couldn't think of any off the top of my head.

@ rexreg: True, but perhaps not that simple. Suppose Orcs are twisted Elves. That would mean they, too, are children of The One. They have a soul and a will of their own. How, then, can it be justified that they seem to be inherently and irredeemably evil? If they were actually good people, how could The One allow them to become so evil, and doom all their descendants?
Anyway, everyone seem to be children of The One in one sense or another. Everyone was either created directly by his design (Elves and Men), or The One made those who made them (Dwarves, Ents, Orcs) and allowed it to happen. The only problem of Aulë making Dwarves was that he was doing it too soon. Elves and Men had to come first, and not for a long while yet.

That whole conundrum didn't sit well with Tolkien. This story of creation seemed flawed to him, and he didn't publish it.

[ericgrau]

The real reason I suspect is that other halves are less dramatic and there's only so many races they wanted to put in the Player's Handbook.


I want to know why you can play a Halfling, but not a full-blood Ling.

Size tiny races aren't appropriate for players since they have 0 reach. It would get too complicated. However they do have a monster entry:

Ling
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ60EZrHIw2zclSg0upvnq6x1lVbZ65B 55gUJF31-7OuTwqg3wU

Ling are notable for their large ears, small feat and tiny size. They have the following traits:
+4 dex, -4 strength
Size tiny
10 foot land speed
+2 racial bonus on all saving throws
+4 bonus on spot, search and listen due to their large ears and beady eyes
+4 morale bonus on saving throws versus fear. This stacks with the ling's bonus to all saves. If you lived among these people, would anything else scare you?
Favored Class: Ranger


Lings breed with humans to form halflings. Halflings breed with humans to form quarterlings, also known as elves. Elves breed with humans to form half-elves, also known as eighthlings. Further dilution of blood are just humans. 3/4 mixes and such tend to round up towards more humanness.

Gnomes breed with humans to form dwarves. Dwarves breed with humans to form all the ugly humans in the world. If you're ugly, you probably have some dwarf in you.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think I want to know how humans breed with Lings if that's what they looks like.:smalleek:

[grarrrg]

Depends. I've wonder this too, but apparently you can have what is called a ring species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species), where the middle one can breed successfully with the either end species, but not the two end ones with each other.

A: Thank you, I knew it existed, but could not recall the term.
B: NINJA'D!


I don't think I want to know how humans breed with Lings if that's what they looks like.:smalleek:

Magic :smallwink:

[Novawurmson]

I don't think I want to know how humans breed with Lings if that's what they looks like.:smalleek:

A Wizard "did it."

[Hylas]

If you really feel the lack, nothing is stopping you from homebrewing your own for your own setting.

This was something I was actually working on, but when polled, potential players weren't very receptive of it. Probably because my thought was "there's too many races already, so I'll make some of the existing races into half-breeds to cut down on combinations" such as a elf-dwarf makes a gnome and a dwarf-human makes a halfling. People who had their favorite race turned into a "half-breed" were upset while the rest were ambivalent.

The difference between "civilized" races and "beast" races was the ability to breed with others. Not a hard rule, but a general rule for propaganda and conquest.

[Ravens_cry]

A Wizard "did it."
Evidently.
Wizards need to keep their trousers on. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT8a9DUrd64)

[pyromanser244]

A Wizard "did it."

I don't want to know what it is that makes everyone assume wizards are responsible for all the perverse stuff in this game.:smalleek:

[grarrrg]

I don't want to know what it is that makes everyone assume wizards are responsible for all the perverse stuff in this game.:smalleek:

It's not that Wizard's are responsible for the Perverse stuff,
it's that Wizard's are responsible for EVERYTHING EVER!! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)

Everything ever just happens to include the perverse stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

It's not that Wizard's are responsible for the Perverse stuff,
it's that Wizard's are responsible for EVERYTHING EVER!! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)

*swats grarrrg on the nose with a rolled up newspaper*
No, bad grarrg, no Tropes Linking! :smallyuk:


Everything ever just happens to include the perverse stuff. :smallbiggrin:
Logically speaking, it has to.

[Eugenides]

that's an interesting theory. but i would imagine it has more to do with convenient game design.

thinking about it objectively, if i had to pick the two other PC races that were most unlike humans, they would have to be elves and orcs. (possibly switch out gnomes for orcs, due to their inherent magical abilities.)

While technically true, if we look at the actual literary basis, Orcs are derived from Elves, so Orcs are technically elves. If we accept that Elf-Human crossbreeds are possible due to being most like humans in physical traits, then so are Orc-Human crossbreeds.

However, if we go there, then we know from Uruk-Hai that Goblin-Orc crossbreeds are possible, so then we have established that Goblins are possible to breed with Humans and Elves. From here, we can only extrapolate.

[DDogwood]

Er, so you're saying that there can be a Half-Orc/Half-Elf?

Or maybe that's just a Human....

[grarrrg]

Goblin-Orc crossbreeds are possible

Hold on there.
Goblins are a sub-breed of Orc.
LotR-Wiki (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Goblins)

Goblins were the smallest race in Middle-Earth, much related to Orcs, that lived deep under the Misty Mountains in many strongholds, ever since the War of Wrath in the First Age.
...
The name "Goblin" is used in The Hobbit to replace usage of the word "Orc," except for when describing larger Goblins.
...
They are similar to orcs in appearance, but are slightly smaller, sometimes hunched over or appearing to walk and run with limps. Their blood is black in color, as with all orc breeds which is normal.... They are seen as slaves by larger orcs breeds. The Goblins are usually shorter in height and skinnier in weight.

So a "Goblin-Orc crossbreed" is still just an Orc.

[willpell]

Weren't the Uruk-Hai made from humans subjected to the "orc process" by Saruman? So a half-orc might really be more like a 3/4 human?

[Eugenides]

Hold on there.
So a "Goblin-Orc crossbreed" is still just an Orc.

See, Tolkien was a little confusing on this. He treats them as the same thing and different at the same time. DnD treats them as different too. We're sort of caught in a point where there are a couple different interpretations. I just went with the DnD assumption that Orcs and Goblins are different, like Orcs and Elves are different.

[hymer]

@ willpell: Ah, I get to give a clear answer: No. :)
The Uruk-hai came out of Mordor, and as such were not made by Saruman. Furthermore, if there was an 'orc process' (I assume you mean a way to turn Elves into Orcs), it was Morgoth's, and beyond the ability of Sauron (and Saruman).
I'd like to state this again: the Uruk-hai were in most ways improvements over common Orcs (larger, more intelligent, willing to go about in daylight, and seemingly more loyal to their master). This makes them seem more like Men. It does not need to mean that they were any more Mannish than any other Orc kind, in fact their very name ('Uruk-hai' means 'Orc people', like 'Olog-hai' means 'Troll people') implies that they weren't.
Someone, and probably Sauron himself (though this may mean the first Uruk-hai were bred in Dol Guldur and moved to Mordor in secrecy), likely oversaw a breeding programme of regular orcs, selecting those with outstanding qualities as mentioned above and breeding them to create still stronger versions of Orc. It may even have been in mockery of Men, in some fashion, but however this may have amused Sauron, it was certainly practical for him to upgrade his soldiery in this fashion.
But this does not make the Orc people Mannish.

[mcv]

See, Tolkien was a little confusing on this. He treats them as the same thing and different at the same time. DnD treats them as different too. We're sort of caught in a point where there are a couple different interpretations. I just went with the DnD assumption that Orcs and Goblins are different, like Orcs and Elves are different.
Different editions of D&D handle this differently. Some don't even consider Orcs to be Goblinoids (while Hobgoblins and apparently even Bugbears are), while other editions do consider them the larger cousins of Goblins, just like Tolkien and Warhammer do.

[ShurikVch]

Half-dwarves(/half-humans) actually exist in FR. (Daeros Dragonspear) They just not widely known because extremely rare. By looks and stats they exactly like normal dwarves, just a bit bigger in size.

Tolkien admitted to take word 'orc' from Beowulf. So orcs originally weren't related to elves. Also, in Dr #329 Grendel is CR 9 and his Mother is CR 13, so orcs are underpowered.:smallbiggrin:
On unrelated note, Savage Species has Anthropomorphic Orca :smallamused:

And size difference is not a problem. Remember various half-templates? Among them is half-minotaur, half-ogre and half-troll (also, half-giant base race). Unlike, say, half-dragons or half-fiends they likely not to use changed shapes to conceive offspring.
Especially interesting the half-troll and half-scrag templates because they not set the minimal possible size for other parent. Even more - tables for natural attack damage and rend damage explicitly mention size 'Fine'! Image it - large giant and fine whatever...
(The only possible base creature to fit in this size and template is puppeteer, but it will be too weird, among the lines "wizard did it". Maybe faerunian subterranean hairy spider with some type-changing template... )
But even if lower size difference and use bat (Diminutive animal), it still be 3 size categories apart!

[toapat]

What would an elf or orc aasimar or tiefling be like?

its in MM2, i forget their name, but the Elf/Succubus hybrid in there is truely an interesting concept, first and foremost because of the fact that if Dwarven Women are MIA, then Elven men are extinct.

[Eugenides]

Different editions of D&D handle this differently. Some don't even consider Orcs to be Goblinoids (while Hobgoblins and apparently even Bugbears are), while other editions do consider them the larger cousins of Goblins, just like Tolkien and Warhammer do.

Just saying, you're reinforcing my point.

[Zubrowka74]

Half-Halflings ...

Would the right terme rather be "Quarterlings" ?

[Yora]

its in MM2, i forget their name, but the Elf/Succubus hybrid in there is truely an interesting concept, first and foremost because of the fact that if Dwarven Women are MIA, then Elven men are extinct.

There's a Duergar/Slaad in MM2 I believe and Monsters of Faerun has the Elf/Succubus, the Drow/Glabrezu, and an orc/demon, possibly a orc/bar-lgura.
FRCS has genie/human as Genasi.
And I think in 4th edition there is a satyr/succubus or a nyphm/incubus, not sure which one.

[toapat]

There's a Duergar/Slaad in MM2 I believe and Monsters of Faerun has the Elf/Succubus, the Drow/Glabrezu, and an orc/demon, possibly a orc/bar-lgura.
FRCS has genie/human as Genasi.
And I think in 4th edition there is a satyr/succubus or a nyphm/incubus, not sure which one.

ya, its monsters of Faerun, they are called the Fey'ri.

really powerful for their LA +2, at will Alter Self or Polymorph

[Ravens_cry]

Would the right terme rather be "Quarterlings" ?
More like three-quarterlings.:smalltongue:

[willpell]

Especially interesting the half-troll and half-scrag templates because they not set the minimal possible size for other parent. Even more - tables for natural attack damage and rend damage explicitly mention size 'Fine'!

It probably says something about me that I can easily comprehend how this scenario would occur. Granted, if the troll is the father, it's rather hard to imagine the mother surviving the pregnancy....

[Ravens_cry]

It probably says something about me that I can easily comprehend how this scenario would occur. Granted, if the troll is the father, it's rather hard to imagine the mother surviving the pregnancy....
The other option seems to imply the worlds youngest bungee jumper. . .

[Yora]

The parents don't have to "fit". Only the reproductory cells have.

[hoverfrog]

Assuming that half elves and half orcs exist as hybrid species along with half dragon and half-whatever species then we're pretty much throwing out genetics and replacing it with magic. Which is fine given the setting.

To answer the OP I'd say that half-halflings, half-dwarves, elf-kobold (hey elves live a long time and they like to "experiment") and half halfling\half giant (ouch) could all exist but that they are so very rare that they are ignored as freaks of nature. Half elves and half orcs are more common because elves are pretty and orcs are always willing and humans, well, you know what we're like, worse than bonobos.

[willpell]

Assuming that half elves and half orcs exist as hybrid species along with half dragon and half-whatever species then we're pretty much throwing out genetics and replacing it with magic. Which is fine given the setting.

Or at least assuming magic can overrule genetics. Dragons and fiends and such could have magic super-genes that can and do break all the rules, without those rules ceasing to apply to everyone else. Orcs (dubious) and elves (very dubious given the lifespan) might be genetic strains close enough to human for compatibility, and perhaps divine magic is necessary to make the children viable and fertile (hence the sterility of Muls on godless Athas).


humans, well, you know what we're like, worse than bonobos.

I would say rather than we're worse than chimpanzees but not quite as good as bonobos, personally....

[Tyndmyr]

...and half-orcs? Or more specifically, why only half-elves and half-orcs? Where are the half-dwarves? Half-gnomes? Half-halflings? Dwarf-gnomes? Gnome-halflings? Elf-orcs?
There are tons of half-monsters, but if these PH races are supposed to be the most common, why don't they interbreed more?

Half-elf is one human parent, one elf parent. Halfling could easily be a half gnome...other half human. Half orcs? again, one human parent. Half dragons...usually other half human, but could be anything.

Apparently, humans and dragons get around.

[Yora]

Halflings are not half-anything. They are mere half human height.

I don't think it's genetically impossible that there are human/elf hybrids and human/orc hybrids, but no elf/orc hybrids.

Mules are usually infertile because horses have one additional pair of chromosomes compared to donkeys (or the other way round) and the mule ends up with one chromosome that does not pair up with a partner. Which doesn't seem to affect normal cell division but causes the production of reproductory cells to fail. However, this is not always the case and there are some known cases of fertile mules. Donkeys somehow lost that one pair at one point. DNA sometimes is weird like that.

Now humans have 46 chromosomes (2x23) and it could be possible that elves have 48 (2x24) and orcs have 44 (2x22).
Half-elves with 47 and half-orcs with 45 still somehow result in living offspring, but when you combine 22 orc chromosomes with 24 elf chromosomes, you have two elven elven chromosomes that don't have a matching partner and that somehow makes every form of cell division fail so there never is any pregnancy at all.
Or you could have elven DNA producing an enzyme that interferes with an enzyme produced by orc DNA and vice versa, so every cell that had both enzymes in it would self-destruct. However, they do not interfere with any enzymes produced by human DNA, so the cells can grow into a half-elf or half-orc.

Humans, elves, and orcs do not need to be different ethnicities of the same species, but can actually be different species.

[willpell]

I don't think it's genetically impossible that there are human/elf hybrids and human/orc hybrids, but no elf/orc hybrids.

At this point I feel it mandatory to mention Vilpich's excellent half-elf-half-orc homebrew race, the Voldur. (Should be easy to find by that name in Search.)

[Grim Reader]

Two words: Ring Species

[grarrrg]

Two words: Ring Species

Covered that already, Page 2, posts 51 and 52 (51 had the idea, but not the term, 52 had the term)

[Grundy]

Wait a minute! All this talk of halflings has finally made me notice what a ridiculous name "halfling" is. I've been playing dnd for 30 years, and it never occurred to me that nobody would ever call themselves, or any group of people they had any respect for, a "halfling." All kidding aside, that's absolutely ridiculous. I'm kind of mad at myself for not noticing.

[Novawurmson]

Wait a minute! All this talk of halflings has finally made me notice what a ridiculous name "halfling" is. I've been playing dnd for 30 years, and it never occurred to me that nobody would ever call themselves, or any group of people they had any respect for, a "halfling." All kidding aside, that's absolutely ridiculous. I'm kind of mad at myself for not noticing.

Well, I mean, Chinese people call themselves Chinese in English-speaking situations, not Zhongguoren.

[willpell]

@ Grundy: Myself, I figure they call themselves "hobbits"; it was only TSR that resorted to a derogatory racial slur....


Two words: Ring Species

Any chance you could spare a few words more for the curious?

[Ravens_cry]

Wait a minute! All this talk of halflings has finally made me notice what a ridiculous name "halfling" is. I've been playing dnd for 30 years, and it never occurred to me that nobody would ever call themselves, or any group of people they had any respect for, a "halfling." All kidding aside, that's absolutely ridiculous. I'm kind of mad at myself for not noticing.

Halfling is just their name in Common. It's the same with dwarves. They aren't small, everything else is just taller.
Likely, their name in their respective languages translates to 'The People'.
It generally does, like Eskimo verses Inuit.

[hymer]

In the translation convention, 'halflings' call themselves Hobbits (it means something like 'hole dweller' or 'hole builder', though they've moved on linguistically and speak Westron during the War of the Ring).
It was the Elves who named them Periannath (sing. Perian), which means 'halfling'. The reason for this being that Hobbits were then literally half the height of Elves; they've dwindled since.

[hoverfrog]

Now humans have 46 chromosomes (2x23) and it could be possible that elves have 48 (2x24) and orcs have 44 (2x22).Well chimpanzees have 24 pair of chromosomes and we humans have 23 pairs (butterflies have 190 pairs). I don't know of any attempts to breed humans with chimps but let's say it is possible for the sake of argument. If you wanted to try to justify human\orc hybrids then advance the current world a few hundred thousand years and have orcs as the descendants of chimpanzees. Rather than being Pan Troglodytes, Orcs are Pan Sapien or something similar. Elves could be an evolutionary branch from homo sapien (homo faerie?). Or human, elf and orc can all share a common ancestor with orc branching first and elf last (so that they are further apart of the evolutionary tree) which would leave us with homo sapien arcanus (fantasy humans), homo fairie (elves) and homo sapien orke (orcs).

However we fudge it to try to explain the reproductive connection of these three races we could simple state that dwarves, halflings, gnomes, etc are superficially the same as humans but genetically very different. So human and halfling branched on the evolutionary tree much earlier than human and orc.

I ran a game a long time ago where dwarves were the descendants of neanderthal (Homo neanderthalensis) based on the descriptions of them in the Jean M. Auel Earth's Children books. They had excellent memories (a kind of race memory) but poor reasoning ability which made them bad at arcane magic but good at divine magic. Elves were the opposite and had to learn everything as they had almost no instinctual knowledge at all. There weren't any other intelligent races to speak of apart from subterranean "dark" versions of humans, elves and dwarves. I had convoluted descriptions of these different races and how their minds worked because of the physical differences, now lost to time.

"Magic" works just as well.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, it has (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee) been tried, but, as of yet, no verified successes.

[Grundy]

That's a good point. Most people who actually have contact with the Inuit consider Eskimo to be an insulting term. Why print it's equivalent in a book? Dwarf has at least the flimsy excuse of centuries of mythology behind the name. Tolkien had the grace to make up a name.
Halfling just sounds like fightin words to me.

[hoverfrog]

Well, it has (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee) been tried, but, as of yet, no verified successes.See, humans will shag anything. We're much worse than bonobos. :smallwink:

[Ravens_cry]

That's a good point. Most people who actually have contact with the Inuit consider Eskimo to be an insulting term. Why print it's equivalent in a book? Dwarf has at least the flimsy excuse of centuries of mythology behind the name. Tolkien had the grace to make up a name.
Halfling just sounds like fightin words to me.
Because Tolkien's estate forced TSR to change it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_%281974%29).
Among a thousand other idea, I thought of making a homebrew world where, among other changes, it had hobbits in the old homebodies of unsuspecting courage style and they were called hobbits.

[hex0]

No man wants to have sex with a female dwarf, although I bet there is someone out there

*raises hand* :smallcool:

As to Genasi, Dwarves can get the "Azer-Blood" feat, meaning they had an Azer (fire dwarf) ancestor. So feel free to make your Fire Genasi be a half-azer in looks. (or change the stats a bit)